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steveid
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.12 04:32:00 - [1]
 

Anyone who's pvped much in eve will have heard the words in vent "i'm not playing undock games on a station". Its a known variable. A pain in the ass. Something that makes killing your target irritating and difficult for a myriad of reasons not least their ability to dock and remote repping ability without an agression timer.

Dominion will make this the basis of sov warfare.

With Dominion now most fights will be based around stations. Think of it. hundreds of remote rep battleships station hugging with carrier RR support and if aggressed? They simply dock. The carriers will be invulnerable to anything but titan instapopping (which with smart fits and slave sets will be very difficult).

Anyone who's had to fight under these condtions will know why i'm concerned. It will be a mess.

Now is the time to change the mechanic for remote repping so that it creates aggression if the person your repping is aggressed.

If not the odds will be horribly stacked to the defender and the key tactic for the opposition will be bombing runs on the undock point.

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.12 05:50:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: steveid
Anyone who's pvped much in eve will have heard the words in vent "i'm not playing undock games on a station". Its a known variable. A pain in the ass. Something that makes killing your target irritating and difficult for a myriad of reasons not least their ability to dock and remote repping ability without an agression timer.

Dominion will make this the basis of sov warfare.

With Dominion now most fights will be based around stations. Think of it. hundreds of remote rep battleships station hugging with carrier RR support and if aggressed? They simply dock. The carriers will be invulnerable to anything but titan instapopping (which with smart fits and slave sets will be very difficult).

Anyone who's had to fight under these condtions will know why i'm concerned. It will be a mess.

Now is the time to change the mechanic for remote repping so that it creates aggression if the person your repping is aggressed.

If not the odds will be horribly stacked to the defender and the key tactic for the opposition will be bombing runs on the undock point.


Actually, now that I think of it, this is a very real concern. CCP, please address this!

+1

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2009.11.12 05:56:00 - [3]
 

holy hell a good suggestion in gd 0_o

Darth Sith
Genbuku.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.12 06:54:00 - [4]
 

I have never liked the fact that remote rep is exploited as a non aggression mechanic in both 0.0 "undock games" and in empire warfare. The fact that not only does it not cause aggression in 0.0 but in empire it only allows certain members of your gang that happened to be shooting at the time to be able to shoot reppers in non war-dec'd corps .

Darth for CSM 4 - vote today

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.11.12 07:29:00 - [5]
 

While I totally agree with the lameness of station hugging, I don't understand how more station hugging will occur if the new anti-sov module are on gates, won't there be more blobs on the gates?

Oh yeah and people running to station and blobbing up there with RR and carriers lameness goes on almost constantly in 0.0 atm, it's not a future problem, it's been a problem for years.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2009.11.12 07:33:00 - [6]
 

They really ought to just ditch the realism and make station undocking work like jumping into a new system. You pop out at a random location, cloaked, X kms away from docking range.

Docking games eliminated and gone forever.

I agree with your suggestion, though. Assisting someone who is aggressed should count as aggression. It's standard MMO practice anyway.

Aisley Tyrion
Aseveljet
Posted - 2009.11.12 07:35:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
While I totally agree with the lameness of station hugging, I don't understand how more station hugging will occur if the new anti-sov module are on gates, won't there be more blobs on the gates?



You need to take the station (if the system has one) to make the TCU (Territorial Claim Unit) vulnerable.

StJamesofSorrow
Amarr
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.12 08:50:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret
They really ought to just ditch the realism and make station undocking work like jumping into a new system. You pop out at a random location, cloaked, X kms away from docking range.

Docking games eliminated and gone forever.

I agree with your suggestion, though. Assisting someone who is aggressed should count as aggression. It's standard MMO practice anyway.


Undock games definatly kill game play, as there's no limitaion or cost to a player who wants to do this.

Had the idea some time ago where if an attacker aggresses he will have to pay a fine to the station owner if docking during an active agression timer. For example 10mill ISK for every minute left on the counter. So if you aggress, then dock straight away, you cop a 150mill ISK fine for causing a disturbance outside a station. You can still dock without the fine, but at another station off grid or maybe the next system.

So you can still play docking games if you want, but you will pay for the option, until your wallet runs dry that is.

Assisting an other player, RR or whatever during combat automatically makes you a valid target, that's the way it should be.

cheers

Doomed Predator
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.12 09:29:00 - [9]
 

Make all stations kick out stations. 5 minute timer for redocking and give people in stations an overview that shows them whats outside the station.

Kora Zilesti
Posted - 2009.11.12 09:39:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Kora Zilesti on 12/11/2009 09:40:46
Original idea: Signed.
Some of the crap being suggested by others in this thread: Not signed.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.11.12 09:42:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: TimMc on 12/11/2009 09:43:08
Originally by: Doomed Predator
Make all stations kick out stations. 5 minute timer for redocking and give people in stations an overview that shows them whats outside the station.


For empire too please. Very Happy

Edit: I would say the timer should end when you leave grid of the station, but its not that important.

Kora Zilesti
Posted - 2009.11.12 09:50:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kora Zilesti on 12/11/2009 09:51:25
Originally by: TimMc
Edited by: TimMc on 12/11/2009 09:43:08
Originally by: Doomed Predator
Make all stations kick out stations. 5 minute timer for redocking and give people in stations an overview that shows them whats outside the station.


For empire too please. Very Happy

Edit: I would say the timer should end when you leave grid of the station, but its not that important.

This is one of those ideas like moving all L4s to lowsec and having them show up on overview: extremely inconvenient and disruptive to a large majority, while pleasing a small, particularly frustrated minority. Not supported in the least.

Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.12 09:59:00 - [13]
 

Remote repping = aggro

Kou Rien
Einherjar Rising
Posted - 2009.11.12 10:06:00 - [14]
 

Agreeing with the OP. Very good idea imo.

Foxxy Lady
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.11.12 10:18:00 - [15]
 

Agree R/R Aggro and increase aggro timer for reinforced stations or disable facilities such as repair and auto shield rep.

Reklan
Amarr
Seniors Clan
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.11.12 11:05:00 - [16]
 

Remote repping = aggro

Tista
Posted - 2009.11.12 11:09:00 - [17]
 

signed, I'm sick of RR **** as it is:P

Titan Pilot
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.11.12 11:38:00 - [18]
 

Agression timer for RR and Logistics, preventing docking for simply repping? Are you all mad?

IT alliance agreeing with this is laughable at best. Gee I wonder why they agree... And the moment they recapture their home systems, they will petition this and say its unfair. Blah blah blah

Look I hate undock games as much as the next guy; but its like a gun fight. You hide, shoot, hide, shoot.

I have seen plenty of ships die while undocking due to lag. These stations had plenty of dock range too.

Don't like it? Play something else I guess.... But to change this mechanic this late without any testing or discussion is absolutely stupid and reckless. It will impact more parts of this game then I care to list.

Good luck repping station services if you do just to give you a taste.

Not signed.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.11.12 11:41:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Kora Zilesti

This is one of those ideas like moving all L4s to lowsec and having them show up on overview: extremely inconvenient and disruptive to a large majority, while pleasing a small, particularly frustrated minority. Not supported in the least.


L4 agents in lowsec is a silly idea as they already have L5s, but it is stupid that agents in high sec are better quality on average than lowsec.

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2009.11.12 13:19:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: egegergergsdgedgege on 12/11/2009 13:19:31
Originally by: steveid
Anyone who's pvped much in eve will have heard the words in vent "i'm not playing undock games on a station". Its a known variable. A pain in the ass. Something that makes killing your target irritating and difficult for a myriad of reasons not least their ability to dock and remote repping ability without an agression timer.

Dominion will make this the basis of sov warfare.

With Dominion now most fights will be based around stations. Think of it. hundreds of remote rep battleships station hugging with carrier RR support and if aggressed? They simply dock. The carriers will be invulnerable to anything but titan instapopping (which with smart fits and slave sets will be very difficult).

Anyone who's had to fight under these condtions will know why i'm concerned. It will be a mess.

Now is the time to change the mechanic for remote repping so that it creates aggression if the person your repping is aggressed.

If not the odds will be horribly stacked to the defender and the key tactic for the opposition will be bombing runs on the undock point.


I aggree with you. Did you already post your concerns in the feedback thread of the last devblog?
If not, please do so.

egegergergsdgedgege

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.12 13:29:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/11/2009 13:30:31

You know this is something that really needs doing when I agree with a Helljumper.

Seriously, Remote Repping an Aggro'ed target equals Aggro. How hard can it be?

(And yes we raised this with the developers way back in CSM1 so they have known about the problem for quite a while)


Kazang
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2009.11.12 13:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aisley Tyrion
Originally by: Vaal Erit
While I totally agree with the lameness of station hugging, I don't understand how more station hugging will occur if the new anti-sov module are on gates, won't there be more blobs on the gates?



You need to take the station (if the system has one) to make the TCU (Territorial Claim Unit) vulnerable.



The new sov system will not mean more docking games, in fact pvp around outpost will be lessened if anything, currently outposts are taken back and forth very quickly meaning the combat is often centred around them. Also outposts are stupidly easy to camp and you can bubble all access to them with minimal effort. Forcing the defenders to either base out of a pos or burn for 60km every time they want to undock or dock.

You can totally bubble and control access to the station while your combat fleet goes to work reinforcing the IHUB.
Once the IHUB goes down the system will be effectively lost as all sov dependant features (cyno jammers, jump bridges, system upgrades) will all go offline.
The defender will be forced to defend the IHUB if you choose to attack that first. Once the IHUB goes down you can then either play for attrition picking off the station dwellers slowly or attempt to reinforce the station and take it.
You can also spend this time taking down the defenders poses, again forcing them to leave the station unless they want to see their system utterly destroyed.

You don't have to play station games if you don't want to, its a strategic option. Stations have both strengths and weakness its up to each side to exploit this in order to win.


As for RR causing aggression I agree that it is rather annoying. But logistics ships would need to be considerably buffed if logi caused aggro. Logistics on a station is already easily countered with ewar and capwar its only when you involve carriers that docking games become stupid, since carriers are highly resistant to conventional anti logistics tactics.
RR giving aggression would cause more problems than it would solve.

Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.12 14:04:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Jamyl TashMurkon on 12/11/2009 14:05:27
Get 10-15 bombers in your fleet
?????
Profit.

if not for bombing their fleets, load in lockbreakers or voids to mess with their RR

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2009.11.12 14:09:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Doomed Predator
Make all stations kick out stations. 5 minute timer for redocking and give people in stations an overview that shows them whats outside the station.


Not that I dont like the sentiments of your idea, but how does a station camp with rr support get affected other then having to wait maybe 5 extra minutes?

The rr will only dock if its attacked, otherwise it'll probably just warp out. If it does need to dock, it'll to an undock instawarp and sit somewhere for 5 minutes before coming back and doing it again, still invincible.

I've said this before to no avail but I think every module activated in space should create a delay if you instantly try to dock after activation, for the reason of 'powering down your systems first'. Unfortunately Damage controls break this idea because they have an incredibly long cycle time.

Laiyna
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.12 14:09:00 - [25]
 

It will also change how RRBS gangs work (on roam, at pos or bashing titans). It will also nerf Logistic cruisers, who now can not leave system through a gate.

It just makes a fight more leathel and one sided. More killmails for the winner, less chance on escape.

So I withhold for now, it got its merits, but also flaws.

Laiyna

steveid
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.12 15:28:00 - [26]
 

My understanding of the new machanic here is that a station is now effectively a pos with two timers and so two periods of assault needed to drop it.

If that is the case thats two periods that the defender will be able to pick his ground and work the undock games to their advantage.

Rylai Moore
Posted - 2009.11.12 15:29:00 - [27]
 

I have a fix:

When you *being fired on* you may not dock.

This will make EVE more like the cold, harsh, game it is advertised as. :)

/me prepares to gather tears and flames.

Doomed Predator
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.12 15:40:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Originally by: Doomed Predator
Make all stations kick out stations. 5 minute timer for redocking and give people in stations an overview that shows them whats outside the station.


Not that I dont like the sentiments of your idea, but how does a station camp with rr support get affected other then having to wait maybe 5 extra minutes?

The rr will only dock if its attacked, otherwise it'll probably just warp out. If it does need to dock, it'll to an undock instawarp and sit somewhere for 5 minutes before coming back and doing it again, still invincible.

I've said this before to no avail but I think every module activated in space should create a delay if you instantly try to dock after activation, for the reason of 'powering down your systems first'. Unfortunately Damage controls break this idea because they have an incredibly long cycle time.

Or you could just,you know, point the damn RR guy preventing him to warp out.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.11.12 15:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 12/11/2009 13:30:31

You know this is something that really needs doing when I agree with a Helljumper.

Seriously, Remote Repping an Aggro'ed target equals Aggro. How hard can it be?

(And yes we raised this with the developers way back in CSM1 so they have known about the problem for quite a while)




it was raised by CSM 3 again

Lord Meriak
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.11.12 15:49:00 - [30]
 

yes dock games our very annoying.. also cap undock redock the same amount of time a frig yet loads more hp ,, 90sec timer . may be 4 mins for a carrier to redock.


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