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HongHi Choi
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.11 13:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: HongHi Choi on 13/11/2009 12:30:26
edit: I have to confess that the focus of my idea was on ship BPOs, not the mod ones. The T2 mod market doesn't seem unbalanced, but having no idea what the margins are ATM, I cannot claim anything. Will be back on that...

Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones. The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that.

The solution I present my friends is simple, and it rests on RL reason. Now...

It would be logical that when someone works on some field of research, at some time in his life he develops something (fairly) original. Earlier this was reflected by research agents hoarding your RP, then lottery, and voila. No more! You have to play for your earns. Fair, says I! So make em work...

The invention system works fine, if you ask me, although it's a pain to ivent sometimes, getting crude BPCs, which are even harder to sell. Not for some eh? I agree. BUT - I think it would be a good idea to reward dedicated inventors, by allowing them to actually "invent" something "original". Long story short:

Add a reasonably small chance of invention actually resulting in an original T2 BPO. The chance i propose would be astronomically small, so that short term inventors would have almost no chance at all for inventing a T2 BPO. On the other hand, a dedicated inventor, running job after job, having high research levels, investing loads of money running up to 10 jobs, would have a reasonable chance to get a T2 BPO in the course of say... one year.

Another idea would be to add an astronomically small chance for T2 BPOs to drop at some high-end, high risk, hacking and/or archeology sites.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.11 14:09:00 - [2]
 

Supported 100%... to both, preferably at the same time.

Adding another 50-100 BPOs a year will reduce the massively high price of BPOs at the moment. The chance will be low enough that its impossible to deliberately make BPOs and its a fair way for newer players to get access to them.

Overall I think even a player doing full invention for a year would probably be best off having a below 10% chance of getting 1 BPO in a year so you don't get too many BPOs flooding the market.


Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2009.11.11 16:48:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 11/11/2009 16:48:49
As a T2 BPO holder I support this idea. More BPOs and not less, an end to the eternal grind for the poor inventors, make inventing actually do that and not just grant leases to produce.

Unfortunately when CCP nerf something it's with a hammer not the screwdriver. Hopefully in time they will realize that there need to be an overall goal for invention other than just copies upon copies to keep people interested.


Charlotte Vanderbeam
Posted - 2009.11.11 17:03:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: HongHi Choi
Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones. The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that.



stopped reading right there, as it is just plain wrong and makes everything you might say afterwards pointless

inventors dictate the t2 market, the only thing that t2 BPO owners provide are a bottom line for mods not worth inventing

invention is the "fix" to t2 BPOs and it is working quite well

not saying it couldnt be improved by giving more diverse decryptor choices with different ME/PE modfiers or by allowing to combine BPCs to one with more runs or inventing 100 run BPCs instead of 10 run ones directly for 10x the input etc but the general concept is spot on

Elldranga
Posted - 2009.11.11 17:04:00 - [5]
 

You need a problem before you need a solution. Why don't you look up a bit of info regarding how much of the market is produced by T2 BPO's before claiming that the T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO's? Just saying....

Yolo
SmellsOFelderbarry
Posted - 2009.11.11 18:45:00 - [6]
 

Just start the old lottery back up.
Keep it running.

Eventually enough t2 bpo's will be out and about.

HongHi Choi
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.11 18:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: HongHi Choi on 11/11/2009 18:48:53
I admit that I am perhaps wrong about who is dictating the market. But even as a short time inventor I sure ah hell can claim, that no inventor can compete with the build cost of the T2 BPO owners. The best me can be -1, giving 20% more waste to build a ship, compared to a briefly researched T2 BPO.

So then you decide, ok... i'm going to build a ship with this - guess what, not only do you need to count build inefficiency of your BPC, but the cost of it as well, further upping the cost of a T2 ship. The result is still the same: T2 ships being sold at a margin of 138% of their build cost for T2 BPO owners, and a mere 26.8% margin for invention builders (not necessarily inventors though).

So now that i think of it - i was right in the first place. An invented BPO is barely competition for an original. For the market to stabilize, you would need proper competition.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2009.11.11 19:27:00 - [8]
 

If they were not going to just delete T2 BPO's, the idea of a small chance of a T2 bpo being the result of an invention job is a good one.

darius mclever
Posted - 2009.11.11 19:41:00 - [9]
 

there is only 1 fix we need for invention:

let the ME/PE research of the t1 bpc affect the t2 bpc. then it would finally make sense to research your invention bpcs.

Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.11 20:01:00 - [10]
 

How bout not making it so complicated and you just mak mag sites drop ME0 PE0 T2 Bpc for not just rigs (and only large rigs ffs!), but mods and ships too?

You'd have a new side, invisible hand supply of non neg ME T2 BPOs...

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.11.11 20:07:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
If they were not going to just delete T2 BPO's, the idea of a small chance of a T2 bpo being the result of an invention job is a good one.

This sounds really good. It will likely result in more T2 inventions, thereby increase the number of products and sellers, increase the competition, and lead to lower prices for T2 products. At the same time will players not have to reinvent the whole thing over and over again, but end up with an original and allow them to move on with their research and do other things.

/signed

John Blackthorn
Foundation
Posted - 2009.11.11 20:36:00 - [12]
 

You really shouln't release more t2 bpo's until there profitable to produce.

I own a Raptor Interceptor BPO and havn't produced one in two years now. I can mine minerals for the base t1 ship, built it, mine minerals for the starship rdb and build that, mine a few pieces of merc. And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. Then put the ship together and find out i've spent 1M more than what the ship is selling for in jita.

Just no reason to build it.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2009.11.11 20:51:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: John Blackthorn
... And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. ...

I see your problem.

Jita offers the best (highest) buy orders when you want to sell something. You do not use buy orders at Jita for buying your raw materials. Jita is more of an end-customer market than a market for B2B (business to business).

Xonus Calimar
Amarr
CaeIum Incognitum
Posted - 2009.11.11 21:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Xonus Calimar on 11/11/2009 21:10:40
Originally by: John Blackthorn
And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders.


There's your problem...

Anyways, I would fully support an invention-based method for acquiring a Tech 2 BPO. Perhaps if it was based on pursuing a specific invention job for an extended period? Number of jobs successfully completed for a particular ship/module/rig/ammo would give slightly better chances for a BPO being invented for that item? Just some thoughts...

Edit: Bah, beat me to it, but yeah, what he said. Embarassed Don't buy components.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.11 21:14:00 - [15]
 

It will delete invention very fast, you are right.

Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000.

It is good for astronomically small?

40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year.
(ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours)


Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000.

Increase in 1 year 146%.




Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.11 21:58:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: John Blackthorn
You really shouln't release more t2 bpo's until there profitable to produce.

I own a Raptor Interceptor BPO and havn't produced one in two years now. I can mine minerals for the base t1 ship, built it, mine minerals for the starship rdb and build that, mine a few pieces of merc. And then buy all the t2 parts from jita on buy orders. Then put the ship together and find out i've spent 1M more than what the ship is selling for in jita.

Just no reason to build it.


Thats exactly the point of these changes, the BPOs would almost entirely be based on the stuff that people are making inventing, so will likely be the stuff that currently has high demand and profit margins.

As for a 1/10000 chance, I was thinking more like 1/1000000 or less per job per day been purely based on the time taken for the job so shorter jobs have a lower chance.

HongHi Choi
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.11 22:01:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: HongHi Choi on 11/11/2009 22:01:17
Originally by: Venkul Mul
It will delete invention very fast, you are right.

Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000.

It is good for astronomically small?

40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year.
(ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours)


Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000.

Increase in 1 year 146%.






I've intentionally left out the numbers and said astronomically small. To come up with actuall numbers I would need to do much more serious calculations than that. I'd need an estimate of players in eve, and estimate in players doing invention, then put some skill proportions to reflect efficiency at invention, so on and so forth... it can be done, and without harm to the market hopefully.

And btw, even if you would seed them directly to the market (available to any pilot at a fixed price) like T1s, it still wouldn't "flood" the market and brake it in any way. It would rather stabilize it (as is the case now with the T1s).

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.11 22:23:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 11/11/2009 22:28:20
Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 11/11/2009 22:24:15
One of my chars once started inventions as I thought it would be cool.
Then, after I spend half a year skilling, I did what I should have done BEFORE I started the training. Calculated the price for some T2 stuff. And the only stuff worth inventing is the one, where under garantie is no BPO => EW-Frigs, HDictors and so on. Stuff which is intruduced after this lottery.

Anythink else == not worth the affort as the need for inventing items (decryptos, BPC, tower with labs as all NPC slots are full anyway) is far to high to compeet with BPO owners.

I might be able to buy a BPO, but to get the invested money back will take 2 to 10 years.

So as long as there are T2 BPOs and no way to get one without paying trillions to some yerks ... it's just not worth the time/isk to bother with.


PS: as I was fresh to the T2 market I thought: "hey, let's try easy stuff, how about this nice light missiles here. There are so many frigs which can use them. There must be some profit". But hell, I couldn't even get close to the market price of T2 light missiles even if I start with refinery and all pre-needed steps. I tryed to find out who is producing them so freeking cheep and how.
Gus ... it was a T2 light missile BPO owner Confused

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.11.12 00:33:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: HongHi Choi

So then you decide, ok... i'm going to build a ship with this - guess what, not only do you need to count build inefficiency of your BPC, but the cost of it as well, further upping the cost of a T2 ship. The result is still the same: T2 ships being sold at a margin of 138% of their build cost for T2 BPO owners, and a mere 26.8% margin for invention builders (not necessarily inventors though).



and how many production lines can you run with a BPO ? one

with invented BPCs? 11 on a max skilled char, indefinte with enough characters

so it is the t2 BPO that really cant keep up with the invention not the other way around

and lets not even start investment here, the BPO prolly got bought by its present owner for 10s of billions, the inventor needs only a tiny fraction of that to set up his production and make more profit in total by simply running more assembly lines

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.12 01:13:00 - [20]
 

Here we go again.

Originally by: HongHi Choi
Most of us are aware of the problem of there being a fixed number of T2 BPOs seeded a LONG time ago, and no plans of there being a system of seeding new ones.
Nope, I don't see a problem there.
The only problem I see is the mechanics of invention being too prone too luck/bad luck and producing too expensive products compared to the ones produced from BPOs.
Originally by: HongHi Choi
The result: T2 market is dictated by T2 BPO owners, and nothing can be done about that.
Wrong. Several modules and ships don't have a T2 BPO and still the market looks just the same there.
Market is dictated by competition. That's all.
T2 BPO owners on popular items can't even lower the market average, because they don't produce enough.
For unpopular items it's pretty much irrelevant, because people don't want to produce those things anyway, since it's unprofitable.

Apart from that..
"T2 BPOs are a problem. Let's have a couple more T2 BPOs!" doesn't make sense to me.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.12 01:54:00 - [21]
 

I thought BPO ruled T2 ship production and inventors ruled Mod production, because you could sacrifice meta 4 modules to increase invention chance.

At least that's what I read in the Production flier.

Xander XacXorien
Posted - 2009.11.12 02:11:00 - [22]
 

"BUT - I think it would be a good idea to reward dedicated inventors, by allowing them to actually "invent" something "original". Long story short:"

Hmmm, well they are rewarded - they invent BPC's.

The net result of being extra rewarded with a T2 BPO would be dumbing down the invention system to being pointless because there are far too many T2 BPO's, hence ruining the invention "game" for noobs. I wouldn't argue for more T2 BPO's I would argue for less and if anything increase invention runs.

If you are bored of invention and don't want to do it any more do something else.

If you have an idea to make invention more interesting then that would be more appropiate.

Alezander Jagen
JagenCorp Combat Industries
Posted - 2009.11.12 03:28:00 - [23]
 

I'm assuming that most of the people going "eff no!" are those who currently own T2 BPOs. You need to get off your throne and give others a chance at the money you're raking in by being really lucky (or by already having a ton of money and buying a BPO off of someone else).

By increasing the amount of BPOs in the system, you increase competition and lower prices. With lower prices, more people start using T2 ships and gear (excepting those who have enough money for best-named but no T2 skills) and you get more customers. Thus, you keep your profits, and we get to kill more noobs in shiney ill-fit T2 ships.

I personally like the idea of inventors having a 1:1,000,000 chance of coming out with a ME0, PE0 BPO each time they invent. What would take the most work is getting the numbers right to only add 4 or 5 BPOs per mod/ship a year. Would this make me start inventing myself? No. But, it's a bonus to those who currently are.

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.12 04:00:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Zahorite on 12/11/2009 04:00:15
I agree with this idea, even posted it in a thread a few weeks ago. And to all the T2 BPO holder's currently out there, right now Eve population is continually increasing. If it's possible to match the chance of invention to something close to the increase in players then it wouldn't decrease the value of current T2 BPO's. I'd roughly time it to double the current T2 BPO in around 3 years based on current invention, this will end up around 2 years as this causes more players to start inventing. In 2 years with any luck the Eve population should be around double, even if it's not quite that it should increase a bit.

The real point here is that you are giving inventors a chance to really get something good. It doesn't matter if they only have a one in a hundred chance after a year of work. The chance is still there. If they want the isk they can sell the BPO when they get it, if they want to start using it themselves they can do that also.

Another thing I would do is base the chance off of succesfully completed inventions. This means that players with higher skills will have a slightly higher chance. Also it will mean that we will see a lot less say Marauder BPO's than Interceptor BPO's, which is how it should be. Also we will see more BPO's of items that are used more often since most inventor's even after these changes won't invent stuff that they can't sell easily.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.12 04:35:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Alezander Jagen
I'm assuming that most of the people going "eff no!" are those who currently own T2 BPOs.
Yes and no.
I own one T2 BPO. And it's no ship, mind you.
Apart from that I also do some invention.
So I know both aspects to a certain degree.

Being on a high throne is a bit of an unfounded insinuation. It might be that some of the T2 BPo owners just have a better understanding of the big picture.
What more T2 BPOs would do is just increase supply and low-price competition. Yes it would probably drive prices down. And by that it would be very bad for inventors, the group many claim to represent.
What it would also do is drive down T2 BPO prices. But why? Simply because they would be worth less..

That's the bottom line. Margins will always be low. If you increase supply and number of T2 BPOs, they will just be even lower.

On a side note, prices for T2 are really low, just as prices for T1 ships are on an all time low.
Imho they don't need to drop even more, or otherwise blowing up a shiny T2 ship isn't much of an achievement or loss, both for the winner and the victim.

T2 BPOs are just like titans. Not limiting their numbers (by whatever means necessary) is a very bad idea.
Boost invention instead.

Acurra Sanstime
Posted - 2009.11.12 08:16:00 - [26]
 

This topic will not go away...
As previously stated T2 BPO holders are not the main determinateness of market price, the biggest thing buy far is the cost of moon goo which of course is the basis of all t2 production. It is true that BPO holders margins are much much higher than inventors but, inventors have the ability to produce much much more.

If we look at it form another view why would the t2 BPO holder severely undercut the inventor? is it in his best interest to sell at 99 million isk when market average is at 120 million?? No of course not t2 BPO holders obey the same general market rules that every producer in the game fallows which is related back to supply and demand. The only time you see a item that is produced at a loss for invention is when you have a low volume "niche" item that has few inventors. Or popular items that are produced by idiots.
By idiots i mean the people that dont do their math and do stupid things like say "i got these data cores from my resurch agent therefore they are free and dont factor into my cost at all"

Before we all go jump on the GET MORE T2 BPO bandwagon lets see what dominion does with the restuctureing of component cost. I believe that it will severely increase the supply and drop prices accordingly, then we can all sleep better at night knowing our vagas and zealots will cost half as much.


For the record I do not own a t2 BPO

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.11.12 13:08:00 - [27]
 

Since this is mentioned countless times before:
Why not reverse engineer T2 items and have a very small chance of getting a BPO out of it.
It will ofc destroy the researched item and take a long time and lot of extra resources and level V skills.


Vadimik
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.12 14:03:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Vadimik on 12/11/2009 14:16:41

You do realise that every time you introduce anything that combines the words "T2 BPO" and "small chance to get one" you are reviving the lottery, right?
Ri-i-i-i-ght?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.12 20:17:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 12/11/2009 20:29:14
Originally by: HongHi Choi

Originally by: Venkul Mul
It will delete invention very fast, you are right.

Astronomically small chance. Let's say 1/10.000.

It is good for astronomically small?

40.000 inventors, 10 jobs day = 40 BPO/day, 14.600 in one year.
(ship invention require multiple days, but module invention require hours)


Number of BPO seeded (included ammunitions) 10.000.

Increase in 1 year 146%.






I've intentionally left out the numbers and said astronomically small. To come up with actuall numbers I would need to do much more serious calculations than that. I'd need an estimate of players in eve, and estimate in players doing invention, then put some skill proportions to reflect efficiency at invention, so on and so forth... it can be done, and without harm to the market hopefully.

And btw, even if you would seed them directly to the market (available to any pilot at a fixed price) like T1s, it still wouldn't "flood" the market and brake it in any way. It would rather stabilize it (as is the case now with the T1s).


If you haven't noticed the only thing "braking" the T1 market is the insurance scam that function as a floor for mineral prices.

Widespread T2 BPO will do exactly the same: putting the price of all T2 items at production cost +2-5%.

Inventor are already reducing most T2 items return to the minimum value, but at least with invention, if you do your research, you can move to another item and get good returns until the mass of inventors discover it.

Then you move to another item while the mass depreciate the previously remunerative item, after switching a few time you can return to the first item of the list as the mass has moved on and the price recovered.

If instead a few people get a BPO they will continue to produce the item because they have a BPO.

Seed (any way) enough BPO and all the prices go to the bottom floor.

Read the QUEN2 a few info on invention there.

BTW: giving any chance of getting a BPO from a BPC is a bad mechanic.
If you want a BPo start from a BPO.

Originally by: Jojo Jackson

One of my chars once started inventions as I thought it would be cool.
Then, after I spend half a year skilling, I did what I should have done BEFORE I started the training. Calculated the price for some T2 stuff. And the only stuff worth inventing is the one, where under garantie is no BPO => EW-Frigs, HDictors and so on. Stuff which is intruduced after this lottery.

Anythink else == not worth the affort as the need for inventing items (decryptos, BPC, tower with labs as all NPC slots are full anyway) is far to high to compeet with BPO owners.

I might be able to buy a BPO, but to get the invested money back will take 2 to 10 years.

So as long as there are T2 BPOs and no way to get one without paying trillions to some yerks ... it's just not worth the time/isk to bother with.


PS: as I was fresh to the T2 market I thought: "hey, let's try easy stuff, how about this nice light missiles here. There are so many frigs which can use them. There must be some profit". But hell, I couldn't even get close to the market price of T2 light missiles even if I start with refinery and all pre-needed steps. I tryed to find out who is producing them so freeking cheep and how.
Gus ... it was a T2 light missile BPO owner Confused



LOL build modules, not ships.

Several modules have a good margin. You only need to make your research.

For ship there is a little selection of ship worth building, but that is because there is a limited market for most of the ships. If you look the QUEN2 you will see that 75% of all the HACs are made by inventors, 89% of the hulks, 68% of all modules, in particular 88% of the cap rechargers II and 92% of the cloaking device II.

You think all that people is selling at a loss?


Grarr Wrexx
Posted - 2009.11.12 21:06:00 - [30]
 

Don't fix what ain't broken. 95% of the current T2 BPO holders have acquired it by means other than the lottery. You would be ruining them.


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