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Miner Bob
Gods Of Wrath
Posted - 2009.11.15 20:47:00 - [1321]
 

I bet all these people whining wouldnt like it if ccp randomly took 6-7b out of their wallet randomly at the whim of a madman (CCP Nozh)

Back on topic
  • The fighter bombers need fixing - they cant hit caps properly - kinda stupid for an anticap ship

  • Put the build cost back to what it should be - 12b or whatever

  • No docking - obv problems and it kinda kills the point of calling it a supercarrier (stupid name btw - mom was nice)

  • Wasnt the skillbook for fighter bombers 20% per lvl? Been told its now 10%

  • Put back to 20 fighters - and dont even try balance em with the mindset that a mom pilot fits dcus

  • Jumprange was nice - needed tbh

  • Free CCP Abathur at least he knew what he was doin

Scam Watcher
Posted - 2009.11.15 21:03:00 - [1322]
 

all i read in this thread is "wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my uber DPS machine is now only a semi-uber DPS machine"

its quite hilarious.

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2009.11.15 21:03:00 - [1323]
 

I think needing alt for supercap is the greatest limiting factor on them. Once it is gone there is going to be bucketload of them, if they are worth the isk (currently not really).

BUT, making ship that requires parking alt is horrible way to balance it so personally I donīt mind seeing that limitation gone. All ships should be worth using at some situation. But yeah, DO NOT allow motherships to dock with standard timers, 30 minutes is probably ok. Want to park your mothership safely? Sit outside station for half an hour and people will think twice before pulling them in and out to gank subcaps. 30 minutes for agression as well. Lowsec station should also have parking fee for them, few millions maybe.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.11.15 21:19:00 - [1324]
 

Whoever came up with the idea that changing build cost is a good idea needs to reconsider that a lot.

Do you have any idea how terrible that is from an economic point of view?

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.15 22:34:00 - [1325]
 

Do you think supercarriers will be nerfed to using 5 fighter bombers?


Slavemaster
Posted - 2009.11.15 22:43:00 - [1326]
 

Edited by: Slavemaster on 15/11/2009 22:43:08
Gee...... What a bunch of Whiners.... I support CCP 100% on this.
<-- Born 2003

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.11.15 23:04:00 - [1327]
 

Originally by: Slavemaster
Edited by: Slavemaster on 15/11/2009 22:43:08
Gee...... What a bunch of Whiners.... I support CCP 100% on this.
<-- Born 2003


LOL. That is about as constructive posting as "WAAAHGH wrost change ever, CCP u sux!!!" Or this post for that matter lol. The real lolz start if CCP creates the new moms and they are the same price range as the old moms lol.

fake edit: added some LOLs just for you. Wink

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.11.15 23:10:00 - [1328]
 

Originally by: Slavemaster
Edited by: Slavemaster on 15/11/2009 22:43:08
Gee...... What a bunch of Whiners.... I support CCP 100% on this.
<-- Born 2003


But you don't understand, older players want something to work for. Rolling Eyes

I got that too, and I was born in 2006.

Ttochpej
Posted - 2009.11.15 23:29:00 - [1329]
 

I think the new changes will be interesting with the added changes to sovereignty, The super carrier is a ship that doesn't have to join battle and can assign fighters, adding docking makes it a even safer investment and now for a cheaper price. I think this is something that is needed to attract players from empire, 6bil is a reachable goal for more people than the previous price. And because it can assign fighters, corps with a few high skill plays could use mother ships to help lower skill level pilots survive and make a living in 0.0

I am glad to hear the current mother ship owners will get reimburse for the cost difference when mother ships become super carriers, ever though I don't own a mother ship the idea that everything in game that I had 'worked' for could be taken away so easily made me think about how much of my spare time I should be investing into a game when things could just change. I realise it was just testing stuff on the 'test server' but it made me realise that the game world of eve while it is a big sand box is still CCP's sand box.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.11.15 23:35:00 - [1330]
 

It needs to be

3 drones per level (change the bandwidth of fighters / bombers not the amount drones that can be controlled)

Give me back my clone vat!!!

leave the large jump range alone

I would accept a build cost of 11 billion

And KEEP the ewar immunity.

---------------------------------
Anyone who says spider tanking motherships are unkillable or yadda yadda yadda, need to go have a long talk with cry havoc they will educate you on how easy it is to kill a mothership with a hac / bs fleet. Remember motherships are still subject to neut and nos and when their cap runs out they are just a large stationary object.

Taarna Galin
Posted - 2009.11.16 00:34:00 - [1331]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk

Anyone who says spider tanking motherships are unkillable or yadda yadda yadda, need to go have a long talk with cry havoc they will educate you on how easy it is to kill a mothership with a hac / bs fleet. Remember motherships are still subject to neut and nos and when their cap runs out they are just a large stationary object.


It's not 1,2 or 3 SCs together that is the problem.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.16 01:07:00 - [1332]
 

its 20 at once they want to have them still able to be taken down but if u look at some of the other changes factional battleships have been boosted. So more of those in fleets. Drop rates will be afactor they have much more dps no ( mini sub caps anyone)

Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2009.11.16 02:32:00 - [1333]
 

imo keep all the changes and remove 6 billion from everyones wallet, that will give you the response you are looking for ccp -_-

Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2009.11.16 03:10:00 - [1334]
 

This:

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
How about:
- Keep the EHP buff
- Let it launch 20 drones (needs that for self protection against smaller ships)
- Limit the bandwith so it can only launch 15 FBs (still 20 fighters) (still does enough damage?)
- Keep the price and buildtime as it is so they dont proliferate like mad
- If you must let them dock that can only happen with a 1 hour redock timer or something

and

- Perhaps make a 2nd "supercarrier" that can use fighterbombers, doesnt have ew immunity, cant use clone vat bay and so on. Gives the newer players something inbetween reg caps and supercaps to look forward to.


Plus:

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Well, to be honest, motherships/supercarriers as capital killers was more of a bandaid solution, since motherships weren't being used, lacked a real role and there weren't that many options.

I'm personally starting to feel bad having ever suggested or supported this role re-definition.

In my humble opinion motherships should have had the Jump Portal Generators in the first place, instead of titans.
That would've given them more importance and meaning and I think it would've fit to the term 'mothership'.


Imo Equals:

Implement changes outlined by Aequitas. In addition let Moms keep the clone vat, give them a ganglink bonus and buff the remote ECM so it actually jams ships for ~15 seconds.

Now you have a super capital that is a command platform that has a use as a flagship for smaller entities as well as a bruiser for cap blobs. Make it so they can get into the biggest wormholes then they can also assist with wspace logistics, storing ships, clone jumping members (Mom has to enter kspace of course), then we might see more small/medium size fights involving these ships.

Changes as proposed consist of a supposed supercapital that apart from ewar immunity has no abilities beyond tank and a little bit of gank, which is singularly uninspiring. Also agree with Tarron that Moms having jump portal ability would have made more sense in the first place, but as far as quickly fixing the mess that is Dominion goes just giving them the clone vat back for now is reasonable.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.16 03:35:00 - [1335]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh

Super Carrier Changes:

  • Can deploy 2 additional Fighter or Drone per level

  • Can dock at stations



That's all for now.

-Nozh

As an aspiring Moros pilot who saw his future dread lose its race-specific drone bonus(*) due to purported station griefing issues(**), now I see that drone-wielding motherships can play games on the undock instead. Really?

How does this differ from a Moros undocking or jumping into a hostile environment and needing to defend itself as best it can with its racial strength, i.e., drones?

(*) - No dread will go into siege when trying to defend itself and escape a trap and thus the race-specific drone bonus will only apply in specific instances when the dread pilot is comfortable sieging his ship.

(**) - who cares about station griefing? EVE already has in-place repercussions for low-sec griefing such as the loss of security status. And in null-sec, isn't that the glorious sandbox that Hilmar loves to talk about? Or is it.

CCP's methodology of meddling in game balance rather than encouraging players to figure out a way to overcome the challenge makes a player feel like they have a case of the dumb. Sandbox, my arse.

p.s. many appologies for the necro on the Moros topic, but I had to point out CCP's inconsistency when it comes to treatment of this dread and its racial bonus as compared to super carriers and their new-found ability to station-hug.

holyone
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.16 05:35:00 - [1336]
 

Edited by: holyone on 16/11/2009 05:44:12

Or, you know, just let ships be unable to launch drones within a station's sphere as it "messes with the undocking lanes" or whatever lore reason is necessary.

That said, I'm curious to see what will happen when the developers come in after their weekend today. I'd be happy with just seeing a good reasoning behind the changes, so far we've just gotten numbers and changes slapped in our faces.

CCP Nozh: Balancing and developing still is a team effort, I assume? If so, where's Abathur's input on this?

Mike Yass
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.16 06:54:00 - [1337]
 

The real problem with reducing the cost of motherships is it reduces the desire to gank them.

With the intended buff to tanking, they are essentially immune to subcaps. The change to price also affects how many caps you're willing to commit to kill one. At 15 bil/ship plus another 2-3b in fittings it's worth risking around ~15 dreads to take it out. At 6b per ship, it's worth risking ~5 dreads to take it out.

The increase to HP also drastically increases enemy response time. Currently supercaps die to dread fleets before repping triage carriers can undock. After the patch, the defender is going to get 3-4 minutes after the attacking dreads enter siege to rescue a super cap. This is a massive, massive increase in risk to the attacker. Unfortunately, the logic behind cap fleets is that you always deploy as many caps as possible, and that when you lose, you tend to lose everything. The result is that risk of killing a mothership goes way, way up, and with the price nerf, the reward of killing one goes way, way down.

The end result is that motherships will be ****ing everwhere, and no one is going to try and kill them. Your patch will eliminate a nice source of cap fights. Please don't do that.

Master Arrow
Trinity Capital Endeavors Incorporated
Posted - 2009.11.16 07:04:00 - [1338]
 

Originally by: Mike Yass
The real problem with reducing the cost of motherships is it reduces the desire to gank them.

With the intended buff to tanking, they are essentially immune to subcaps. The change to price also affects how many caps you're willing to commit to kill one. At 15 bil/ship plus another 2-3b in fittings it's worth risking around ~15 dreads to take it out. At 6b per ship, it's worth risking ~5 dreads to take it out.

The increase to HP also drastically increases enemy response time. Currently supercaps die to dread fleets before repping triage carriers can undock. After the patch, the defender is going to get 3-4 minutes after the attacking dreads enter siege to rescue a super cap. This is a massive, massive increase in risk to the attacker. Unfortunately, the logic behind cap fleets is that you always deploy as many caps as possible, and that when you lose, you tend to lose everything. The result is that risk of killing a mothership goes way, way up, and with the price nerf, the reward of killing one goes way, way down.

The end result is that motherships will be ****ing everwhere, and no one is going to try and kill them. Your patch will eliminate a nice source of cap fights. Please don't do that.

I know Goons are famous for stupid posts...but this is epic LOL'n at it's best....this has to be the worst point of view on supercarriers ever considering it comes from someone in goons who are famous for hotdropping anything that is camping a gate.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.16 07:20:00 - [1339]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 16/11/2009 07:21:03
Nozh's "big picture blog" or at least a solid, good sized response better be out by the time I get home from work tomorrow.

there are many points, but there are two in particular I'd like to emphasize:

-explosion velocity of 3500m = 1/2 damage on dreads, which are about 95% of what's important in a cap fleet. If you are thinking you're going to make SCs just good at killing "moving" caps (aka carriers, SCs and titans), you art a fool.
-DCUs are total sh*t. Either increase their effectiveness GREATLY or don't expect a single person to fit a single one off of a station. adding in a fighter/FB only, stacking penalized damage bonus to DCUs (I think someone else suggested this?) would be perfect way to go.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.11.16 07:21:00 - [1340]
 

Originally by: Master Arrow
Originally by: Mike Yass
The real problem with reducing the cost of motherships is it reduces the desire to gank them.

With the intended buff to tanking, they are essentially immune to subcaps. The change to price also affects how many caps you're willing to commit to kill one. At 15 bil/ship plus another 2-3b in fittings it's worth risking around ~15 dreads to take it out. At 6b per ship, it's worth risking ~5 dreads to take it out.

The increase to HP also drastically increases enemy response time. Currently supercaps die to dread fleets before repping triage carriers can undock. After the patch, the defender is going to get 3-4 minutes after the attacking dreads enter siege to rescue a super cap. This is a massive, massive increase in risk to the attacker. Unfortunately, the logic behind cap fleets is that you always deploy as many caps as possible, and that when you lose, you tend to lose everything. The result is that risk of killing a mothership goes way, way up, and with the price nerf, the reward of killing one goes way, way down.

The end result is that motherships will be ****ing everwhere, and no one is going to try and kill them. Your patch will eliminate a nice source of cap fights. Please don't do that.

I know Goons are famous for stupid posts...but this is epic LOL'n at it's best....this has to be the worst point of view on supercarriers ever considering it comes from someone in goons who are famous for hotdropping anything that is camping a gate.
Actually its pretty f'in accurate. But don't worry, your bitterness towards goons isn't showing....much.

Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.16 09:36:00 - [1341]
 

First CCP please allow Abathur to handle supercaps.
Remember that unhappy customers = not subscribed users.
Everything that has been done post Abathurs capital blog blows.
Even with the lastet update by Nozh supercarriers are terrible.


Anyway I hope we hear some new info and thought about changes today.
Because I think this incarnation of the MOM will be bad for the game.
Also 45 pages of rage cant be wrong.
To be honest why cant CCP just leave the supercarrier as it was.
Help us CCP Abathur your our only hope.
Um yeah.
Regards
♥ Manny

IntelOut
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.11.16 09:49:00 - [1342]
 

Edited by: IntelOut on 16/11/2009 09:49:48
just from test server:

http://i056.radikal.ru/0911/b8/87e5a6a82d4a.jpg


MMM... Thanatos is cheaper... Very Happy

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.11.16 10:25:00 - [1343]
 

Edited by: Karlemgne on 16/11/2009 10:25:06
Originally by: Manfred Sideous
First CCP please allow Abathur to handle supercaps.
Remember that unhappy customers = not subscribed users.



If the 400 or so people who currently own motherships on TQ quit the game over changes to a single ship, then good riddance.

Of those who threaten to quit over this I am sure less than 10% actually will.

Quote:
Everything that has been done post Abathurs capital blog blows.


I totally disagree. Most of this stuff is good.

Quote:
Even with the lastet update by Nozh supercarriers are terrible.


The whole idea of this ship class for the super-rich in game given to only those who can afford multiple accounts is now, and has always been, terrible.

Quote:
Because I think this incarnation of the MOM will be bad for the game.


Capital ships in general are bad for the game. Supercapitals are REALLY bad for the game. Get it right.

Quote:
Also 45 pages of rage cant be wrong.


Not all 45 pages if this is emowhine. Besides that logic is awful. I can link you to some **** videos on youtube with over 45 pages of skinheads talking about how great ****** is. Does it follow that they are right?

Quote:
To be honest why cant CCP just leave the supercarrier as it was.


Because it was too exclusive. Because they wanted it to fill a specific role that it couldn't in its current instantiation.

Quote:
Help us CCP Abathur your our only hope.


Yes, tell the emo-rich supercapital tards that they can't sit in the mud and declare they're quitting eve, and then just get handed what they want.


Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.16 10:44:00 - [1344]
 

Originally by: Manfred Sideous
First CCP please allow Abathur to handle supercaps.
Remember that unhappy customers = not subscribed users.
Everything that has been done post Abathurs capital blog blows.
Even with the lastet update by Nozh supercarriers are terrible.


Anyway I hope we hear some new info and thought about changes today.
Because I think this incarnation of the MOM will be bad for the game.
Also 45 pages of rage cant be wrong.
To be honest why cant CCP just leave the supercarrier as it was.
Help us CCP Abathur your our only hope.
Um yeah.
Regards
♥ Manny


Finally a post worth quoting for truth.
Really proud of being in the same alliance as Manny.
Even those who disagree with him must concede that
Everything he has posted in this thread has been well-thought out and civil.

Also, he does make a point.
Bully your subscribers and they'll protest.
Ask them to accept too much and they'll refuse.
There will be a point where your customers will have had enough.
Heed the call of your customers and listen to what they have to say.
Unless of course you have too much pride to acknowledge when you're wrong.
Regards,
♥ Palli

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.16 10:57:00 - [1345]
 

FREE ABATHUR

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:04:00 - [1346]
 

Edited by: Seishi Maru on 16/11/2009 11:05:22
Not only free him.. but put him IN CHARGE of game balance. He proved already (and was clamed by community) as being far better than anything CCP has employed as game balance team since Tuxford at least! ( TO be fair CCP c...nosomethingtoocomplicatedtowrite (the guy from sbomber and naglfar boosts) seemed a good and competent guy, but his changes and moves keep being undone..)

Tappits
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:18:00 - [1347]
 

MoM's (Read Supper Carriers) and Titans (Read Giant ****s) Were never cost effective (a goon told me they were???)
They are an end game ship used (read sat in at a pos for months) by end game players, there not that good and we like them been not that good, we like that fact that you need many accounts to use them we like that you need massive logistics capability's to build and run these things, we like that people X up as soon as one gets tackled just to be 1% damage on there killmail, we like the fact that not any one can get one,, we like the fact that we cannot dock them, we like spending months grinding isk for them, its something to plan for years in advance (read more isk for ccp) we like the fact that spending 10bill on fittings for them is the norm, there an isk sink epeen with limited use and we like that.
Yes there have been times were people could of said there overpowered (lowsec pre HIC, cyno jammed 0.0 systems) but PEOPLE were still able to counter there overpoweredness and kill them. But these chages proposed are completely off the wall. MoMs have not been overpowered for ages and wanting to change them in to a tear two carrier is madness (sparter here again)
IF the game developers really do want these changes to go ahead what they really need to do is move all current moms to a station and reproses them into there cap parts, atleast then people can choose to sell all and get back to eve or they can rebuild there mom into a suppercarrier.
This is not like any other nerf in the past as most of the time something did need to be done about what ever was been changed MoM's are not currently overpowered and don't need a nerf.

Plan 1:
Scrap all changes and keep MoM's as they currently are on TQ

Plan 2:
move all MoM's to a station and reproses them into parts

Plan 3:
Keep the changes pre Nozh i.e Abathur's incarnation of suppercarriers

Plan 4:
Go ahead with these changes don't listen to the people that play the game loose some accounts and then have to nerf them even more in 6months time when you find that what you have done IS totally wrong and loose some more accounts.

Plan 5:
ban me from the forums (like you have been doing to people) and delete 200+? Posts (like you have been doing) loose more accounts and then read plan 4.

p.s.
Titans need there 5min DD timer again

Major Roy
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:21:00 - [1348]
 

Originally by: Karlemgne
Edited by: Karlemgne on 16/11/2009 10:25:06
Originally by: Manfred Sideous
First CCP please allow Abathur to handle supercaps.
Remember that unhappy customers = not subscribed users.



If the 400 or so people who currently own motherships on TQ quit the game over changes to a single ship, then good riddance.

Of those who threaten to quit over this I am sure less than 10% actually will.

Quote:
Everything that has been done post Abathurs capital blog blows.


I totally disagree. Most of this stuff is good.

Quote:
Even with the lastet update by Nozh supercarriers are terrible.


The whole idea of this ship class for the super-rich in game given to only those who can afford multiple accounts is now, and has always been, terrible.

Quote:
Because I think this incarnation of the MOM will be bad for the game.


Capital ships in general are bad for the game. Supercapitals are REALLY bad for the game. Get it right.

Quote:
Also 45 pages of rage cant be wrong.


Not all 45 pages if this is emowhine. Besides that logic is awful. I can link you to some **** videos on youtube with over 45 pages of skinheads talking about how great ****** is. Does it follow that they are right?

Quote:
To be honest why cant CCP just leave the supercarrier as it was.


Because it was too exclusive. Because they wanted it to fill a specific role that it couldn't in its current instantiation.

Quote:
Help us CCP Abathur your our only hope.


Yes, tell the emo-rich supercapital tards that they can't sit in the mud and declare they're quitting eve, and then just get handed what they want.




Until you have the b****s to buy one STFU

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:43:00 - [1349]
 

Originally by: Karlemgne


#!*@#[email protected]* stuff





Now tell me. How in your wonderful world of cheap and dockable motherships. How do you envision the threat of a fricking CHEAP 25 M HP ships.. supported by other 10 of those making every station unconquerable and making every low sec station an exclusion zone?


Can't you see that dockabe 6-8 bil isk ships are CHEAP for 0.0? And that instead of 130 dread fleets we WILL have 100 mothershipo fleets that are completely and utterly INVINCIBLE!

At the same time removing a high end aspect of the high end game? If this goes trough.. I will immediately buy 2 motherships for myself and pretty sure at least 2 others in my corp (and its a small and quite POOR low sec corp). And with the almost zero chance of loosing them... there will be no reason for us to use anything else for serious fighting.


Its a loss for everybody at the long run.

Zyleina Kzorvern
Coronene Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.16 11:55:00 - [1350]
 

The cost was never the issue. Neither was the fact that they could only be built in 0.0. What limited the number of motherships was the need for a dedicated account.

You can reduce the build cost all you want, but if they can't dock, their numbers won't go up that much.

But once it can dock, it can join the 50+ other ships in my hanger. The ultimate cost of owning a mothership or titan was never the ship or mods. It was the dedicated account that you needed to fly it.

Allow them to dock, and even if you increase the build cost, their numbers will shoot up.

Isk is not an issue. Tons of people have way too much of it. With all the powerblocs around, building supercaps in 0.0 won't be that much more risky once sov 4 goes away.

Whether the ship can dock will determine whether it stays exclusive or becomes a common ship that every capital pilot will have in their hanger.


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