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Griceldia Kvonnir
Coronene Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.15 11:19:00 - [1291]
 

Please don't consider reimbursements. That is the last thing you need to do. Because the next time you change anything in game, people will be all over the forums asking for their isk back. Just keep the build cost the same, and you don't have any problems. And there wasn't any good reason to change it in the first place.

Right now, it seems like for every change you make, you're creating 10 new problems that are even more difficult to solve.

Keep the way things were. Everyone was so excited about the original changes. I don't see why you guys decided to scrap all of that.

Linas IV
Posted - 2009.11.15 11:26:00 - [1292]
 

Originally by: Locii
As they can now dock, is there any point limiting there production to a system with sov. why not just let them be built in low sec and save the new mothership building for 0.0


QFT

At least let them be build at a Pos without sov.

Zyleina Kzorvern
Coronene Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.15 11:28:00 - [1293]
 

Originally by: Locii
As they can now dock, is there any point limiting there production to a system with sov. why not just let them be built in low sec and save the new mothership building for 0.0


So take the current motherships and change them into cheaper versions of t2 carriers. Then introduce a new mothership and make players go grind isk all over again to get them. I hope this is not what you are trying to do ccp. That is not the game I want to play.ugh

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2009.11.15 12:31:00 - [1294]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 15/11/2009 12:33:04
ATM its
8BILL. DOCKABLE. 15 DRONES.

to balance this it will be:

Half hp. Or 20min dock timer. OR vulnerable to ecm. Or not remote reppable.
This will make them useless to field away from stations.
20min redock timer will probably mean you miss a getting in gangs ect. so takes away from the point.

Ecm vulnerable will make them totaly un-fieldable ever. will just get jammed and webbed on field and jammed on stations.

Then there is the entire player owned station free repair.
so they can sit out till 10% armor-dock-repair-undock.

so then comes the docking at player owned station nerf cus 20min timer probably wnt mean they even hit 10% armor 80% of the time.
OR a EHP nerf onto of docking time.





Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.11.15 13:39:00 - [1295]
 

Jesus christ, you are all such whiney little trolls on here...


"but but... they will be USED !!!! on stations !!!"

yes so now you can actually KILL some instead of the motherships staying logged off in poS bubbles till we can bring them out on 100% SAFE ops because right now its absolutely retarted to field one if there is any threat at all on the field.

As I said before, give them a "debuff" that, because their size they can not dock while being shot at (so no station games) and all of the problems go away.

I won't be stuck in a coffin no more, nor need to pay for a garage character, I'll effectively get to use the bloody thing AND I can NOT play docking games.

Fleur D'oranger
Posted - 2009.11.15 14:22:00 - [1296]
 

Edited by: Fleur D''oranger on 15/11/2009 14:30:40

The problem is with station games period, not with this ship. They should have made you wait out the whole 15 minute aggression timer to dock a long time ago.

Edit: Along with aggression flagging you for repping an agressor.

Giving these ships an arbitrarily long redock time is lame. Nobody in any ship class should be able to play dock/undock games. Fix the actual problem (station games) for all classes of ship.

Kochi Pikla
Posted - 2009.11.15 14:33:00 - [1297]
 

leave my ms alone , i want 20 drones not 15, supercaps are not supposed to be able to dock if ppl cant afford to have to pay an alt or have to pay 15b to fly a ms they can just go play wow or sell some gtc...

Cruel SOAB
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.15 14:52:00 - [1298]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
I just don't get it. Huge, mean looking, expensive to build .. a one time decision for a pilot to get into them and be stuck there unable to change ship. So why nerf them this badly? Their days of virtual invincibility is gone .. no one is going to conquer a quarter of null sec with four of them ever again no matter what you do. It looked for a few weeks like you had given them a role in the game again .. and now you back out? This change is ridiculous and uncalled for. Please reverse it.


This. Reverse this nonsense. No one will be wanting to fly a super carrier ever again. The Nyx is too sexy for this treatment.

Herar Domain
Posted - 2009.11.15 15:27:00 - [1299]
 

It would be a pleasure if CCP could give some former informations or at least a statement -.-

Herar feels totally left alone Rolling Eyes

The Internets
Posted - 2009.11.15 16:04:00 - [1300]
 

Edited by: The Internets on 15/11/2009 16:07:06
Testing on Sisi, you can bump a Hel ~12km on a direct hit (bumping ship does a 180 almost instantly on contact) using the right ship, does need some investment for a snake set. However a hit that isn't right in the center mass will not move it very far at all.

Frankly, docking games don't matter that much anyway; player outposts consistently have small docking areas, plus the people they'd actually catch aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway. You have to try pretty hard to get nabbed by capitals while undocking on Traq.

Their remote-rep capabilities should be removed if these changes go through however to prevent massive ecm-immune spider tanks that would eventually appear everywhere. Would pretty much let players focus more on offensive modules as well.

Originally by: Cruel SOAB

This. Reverse this nonsense. No one will be wanting to fly a super carrier ever again. The Nyx is too sexy for this treatment.


I don't know about you, but the current Traq motherships are absolute trash compared to the Sisi ones, and judging by this thread, quite a few people fly motherships regardless. I suppose having significantly more EHP, DPS against capitals (up to 3x more DPS against them), and affordability is a HORRIFIC tradeoff for losing 5 entire drones.

FIVE WHOLE DRONES. DEAR GOD.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.15 16:38:00 - [1301]
 

It seems to me that CCP just does not understand or seem to care about the time and effort the player base puts into eve. A lot of what makes eve great is the long term goal you can set for your self, corp and alliance. Making changes that have a huge impact on these goals as the "super nerf" will, makes any other goals we also have, seem no longer worth the effort.

The Internets
Posted - 2009.11.15 16:48:00 - [1302]
 

Originally by: voidvim
It seems to me that CCP just does not understand or seem to care about the time and effort the player base puts into eve. A lot of what makes eve great is the long term goal you can set for your self, corp and alliance. Making changes that have a huge impact on these goals as the "super nerf" will, makes any other goals we also have, seem no longer worth the effort.


Losing 5 drones is a 'super nerf' for a ship that is supposed to be flown with support. Gaining ridiculous EHP, DPS against capitals is completely irrelevant BECAUSE 5 DRONES OMG.

Apparently you don't have to be bright enough to put your pants on in the morning to be able to fly a supercarrier. The ship is getting MAAAAAAAASIVE BUFFS, it's in a completely different league in power and survivability compared to Tranq.

ArmagedonLT
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2009.11.15 16:49:00 - [1303]
 

Edited by: ArmagedonLT on 15/11/2009 16:50:43
Originally by: The Internets
Edited by: The Internets on 15/11/2009 16:07:06
Frankly, docking games don't matter that much anyway; player outposts consistently have small docking areas, plus the people they'd actually catch aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway. You have to try pretty hard to get nabbed by capitals while undocking on Traq.



Oh hai, mr i dont know about 0.0 guy, Gallente player built outpost has massive docking range and its undock point is hardly bumpable. Try bumping anything from those tbh, its much worse than those npc caldari stations.
Also, you forgetting the 0.0 NPC space which has stations with insane docking range, thats where main problem comes. One guy can play dock and undock games against whole alliances without a risk.

As a mothership pilot:
Docking for moms = NO!
15 fighters = fine, i can live with that
Reduced build cost? HELL NO!

Taarna Galin
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:01:00 - [1304]
 

Edited by: Taarna Galin on 15/11/2009 17:20:30
Originally by: The Internets

Testing on Sisi, you can bump a Hel ~12km on a direct hit (bumping ship does a 180 almost instantly on contact) using the right ship, does need some investment for a snake set. However a hit that isn't right in the center mass will not move it very far at all.


Really? What were you using? (srs question)



Quote:
I don't know about you, but the current Traq motherships are absolute trash compared to the Sisi ones, and judging by this thread, quite a few people fly motherships regardless. I suppose having significantly more EHP, DPS against capitals (up to 3x more DPS against them), and affordability is a HORRIFIC tradeoff for losing 5 entire drones.


I don't agree that "nobodoy will fly them", but I do think what they are going to end up doing is not going to be what they were supposed to be doing. How they were before Nozh came in they would have been used almost entirely for this role.

Quote:
Their remote-rep capabilities should be removed if these changes go through however to prevent massive ecm-immune spider tanks that would eventually appear everywhere. Would pretty much let players focus more on offensive modules as well.


Unfortunately, offensive modules (DCUs) are pretty worthless. It would take Four DCUs to get gains similar to what a single faction damage mod nets you for turrets/missiles. Removing their RR abilities would be just one more nerf to a ship that DIDN'T need the nerf a week ago.


Originally by: The Internets
Apparently you don't have to be bright enough to put your pants on in the morning to be able to fly a supercarrier. The ship is getting MAAAAAAAASIVE BUFFS, it's in a completely different league in power and survivability compared to Tranq.


Pretend you had a Porsche, but this Porsche performed like a school bus so you contact the company. One of Porche's mechanics tells you he is sorry, he and his team will fix it and tells you all these great improvements they are going to do. How it will be the "ultimate sportscar". He even let you test drive one set up just like what yours will be. You're thrilled, you love it, you praise the mechanic's work. Two weeks before delivery that mechanic's boss calls and says "actually, I decided it would be better to make it perform like a Camaro, but refund you half the price you paid."

It performs a helluva lot better than a school bus now, but should you really be happy?

ByFstugan
Big Shadows
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:11:00 - [1305]
 

Originally by: The Internets
Edited by: The Internets on 15/11/2009 16:07:06
Testing on Sisi, you can bump a Hel ~12km on a direct hit (bumping ship does a 180 almost instantly on contact) using the right ship, does need some investment for a snake set. However a hit that isn't right in the center mass will not move it very far at all.

Frankly, docking games don't matter that much anyway; player outposts consistently have small docking areas, plus the people they'd actually catch aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway. You have to try pretty hard to get nabbed by capitals while undocking on Traq.

Their remote-rep capabilities should be removed if these changes go through however to prevent massive ecm-immune spider tanks that would eventually appear everywhere. Would pretty much let players focus more on offensive modules as well.

Originally by: Cruel SOAB

This. Reverse this nonsense. No one will be wanting to fly a super carrier ever again. The Nyx is too sexy for this treatment.


I don't know about you, but the current Traq motherships are absolute trash compared to the Sisi ones, and judging by this thread, quite a few people fly motherships regardless. I suppose having significantly more EHP, DPS against capitals (up to 3x more DPS against them), and affordability is a HORRIFIC tradeoff for losing 5 entire drones.

FIVE WHOLE DRONES. DEAR GOD.


I agree with this. The Supercarriers get's a real good buff and the suggested present changes is as a whole good. However some of the objections are important to take notice to, even if I don't agree withe most their solution.

I think the reduced price along with current changes is almost on the spot what should be made. However the issues about docking should be fixed in some way - just not by not make them dockable.

Another thing that might need to be reconcider is if the immune to EW should be changed to 50% resistanse vs EW (plus X warp stab in hull.

After this the SC's will still be buffed compared to todays MS's, even if we might stop calling them supercapital and await the new Mothership to come that might be worthy of that name.

xXxDianaxXx
REUNI0N
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:20:00 - [1306]
 

Originally by: ArmagedonLT
Edited by: ArmagedonLT on 15/11/2009 16:50:43
Originally by: The Internets
Edited by: The Internets on 15/11/2009 16:07:06
Frankly, docking games don't matter that much anyway; player outposts consistently have small docking areas, plus the people they'd actually catch aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway. You have to try pretty hard to get nabbed by capitals while undocking on Traq.



Oh hai, mr i dont know about 0.0 guy, Gallente player built outpost has massive docking range and its undock point is hardly bumpable. Try bumping anything from those tbh, its much worse than those npc caldari stations.
Also, you forgetting the 0.0 NPC space which has stations with insane docking range, thats where main problem comes. One guy can play dock and undock games against whole alliances without a risk.

As a mothership pilot:
Docking for moms = NO!
15 fighters = fine, i can live with that
Reduced build cost? HELL NO!



total agree

Hey CCP If you want the ships used more frequently do not have to degrade them, make insurance more affordable so that in case of loss of the ship pilot gets his hands full price.

Jenessa
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:20:00 - [1307]
 

I really fail to see why some people are freaking out because of SuperCarriers being able to dock, and the only reason for the panic is "Oh people will play docking games with it"

Good grief thats the best arguement you have?? People play that game now with carriers, any idiot who dies in a capital on a station to a MS with fighter bombers shouldnt have been in the damned ship in the first place.

People seem to think there will be a huge proliferation of SC's with Dominion, has it occured to people they still cannot be built in stations? There arent that many in the game as it is due to the fact they had no real role, the fact they are hard to build and are destroyable during build (more so after dominion) means they will never be as numerous as carriers, hell they wont even come close.

Yes I've got a character that's got a Mothership, and yes I want to dock it in, I'm not gonna pretend I'm unbiassed on it, but my god the reason's given for not letting them dock are absolutely pathetic.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.15 17:46:00 - [1308]
 

Originally by: Griceldia Kvonnir
Please don't consider reimbursements. That is the last thing you need to do. Because the next time you change anything in game, people will be all over the forums asking for their isk back.
Yep, this exactly.
Pandora's box at your fingertips..

Chicken Breasts
Posted - 2009.11.15 18:21:00 - [1309]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Griceldia Kvonnir
Please don't consider reimbursements. That is the last thing you need to do. Because the next time you change anything in game, people will be all over the forums asking for their isk back.
Yep, this exactly.
Pandora's box at your fingertips..



How often does CCP cut the mineral requirements of a long-standing ship class by nearly half?

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.11.15 18:27:00 - [1310]
 

To all the people crying to CCP to not reimburse:
You just need to STFU...if you spent 12b+ isk, spent lots of time coming up with the isk, moving components, weeks of production, POS maint, Capital Assembly Array....and then are told you built a 5-6b isk ship, you would be asking for reimbursement too. I personally think the cost shouldn't be changed, people are complaining about supercap fleets, well if you drop the cost to 5-6b that is exactly what you will get. If CCP changes it, DAMN RIGHT they need to reimburse us!!

The Internets
Posted - 2009.11.15 18:41:00 - [1311]
 

Originally by: ArmagedonLT
Edited by: ArmagedonLT on 15/11/2009 16:50:43
Originally by: The Internets
Edited by: The Internets on 15/11/2009 16:07:06
Frankly, docking games don't matter that much anyway; player outposts consistently have small docking areas, plus the people they'd actually catch aren't the brightest crayons in the box anyway. You have to try pretty hard to get nabbed by capitals while undocking on Traq.



Oh hai, mr i dont know about 0.0 guy, Gallente player built outpost has massive docking range and its undock point is hardly bumpable. Try bumping anything from those tbh, its much worse than those npc caldari stations.
Also, you forgetting the 0.0 NPC space which has stations with insane docking range, thats where main problem comes. One guy can play dock and undock games against whole alliances without a risk.

As a mothership pilot:
Docking for moms = NO!
15 fighters = fine, i can live with that
Reduced build cost? HELL NO!



You can bump anything, and most player outposts do have a small undock. I'm more than familiar with 0.0. Pre-speed nerf my best record was knocking a Drake 153km off of a gallente outpost with a Vagabond, the distances you can hit people are still pretty ridiculous. For whoever was asking, I used a Bumpariel on Sisi with a garage sitting in a Hel @ standstill.

Main issue for NPC stations are mostly the Caldari ones since their effective docking range is ~40km or so if I remember correctly (I probably don't). It's not like players can own NPC 0.0 anyway however, so to me it's similar to 0.0 bears crying that someone is in their system cloaked. HTFU is the saying, aye?

farfrael
FP Enterprise
Posted - 2009.11.15 18:43:00 - [1312]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey,

We've made some further changes to super carriers after taking your feedback into consideration. It's quite understandable that the changes made were a disappointment to many of you, but I wanted to remind you that Singularity is a test server and all changes, even these are subject to change.

Compact Citadel Torpedo Changes:

  • Explosion Velocity: 60

  • Damage: 3200


Super Carrier Changes:

  • Can deploy 2 additional Fighter or Drone per level

  • Can dock at stations



Furthermore we're looking into solutions to reimburse current mothership pilots for the drop in construction cost.

That's all for now.

-Nozh




oh hi, it's you again, i HAD to double-check to make sure.
the ****** who advocated using MEDIUM GUNS ON A BATTLESHIP

Originally by: CCP Nozh
So are battleships useless in solo combat?
Far from it, being the larger ship still has many benefits:
* The ability to actually fit smaller weapons to fend of smaller targets


And now you want docking games with Motherships.
You are a ****ing idiot. Get out of my game NOW.

WTB dev with a clue of current game mechanics and problems.



Taarna Galin
Posted - 2009.11.15 18:52:00 - [1313]
 

Edited by: Taarna Galin on 15/11/2009 18:56:17
Originally by: The Internets
For whoever was asking, I used a Bumpariel on Sisi with a garage sitting in a Hel @ standstill.


figured it was a mach. Try using the same mach but have the mom begin moving in the direction of the mach as you start your bump approach. Also try it with a vanilla, non-snaked BS. If a snake set bump mach getting a perfect bump on a non-moving SC is the only real way to get it off station, then risk is still about 0.


Originally by: farfrael

Originally by: CCP Nozh
So are battleships useless in solo combat?
Far from it, being the larger ship still has many benefits:
* The ability to actually fit smaller weapons to fend of smaller targets


And now you want docking games with Motherships.
You are a ****ing idiot. Get out of my game NOW.




Hahaha, I totally forgot about that Nozh "it looks right on paper" gem.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.11.15 19:19:00 - [1314]
 

Originally by: Kraken Kill

Lowering the price requires Fixing to BPO owners and current Mothership owners.


Playing devils advocate here, why? CCP has made all kinds of game changes in the past that have tanked the value of the BPOs and the mods and ships owned by people on TQ. To my knowledge CCP has never rembersed anyone for game play changes.

Quote:
Allowing them to dock will create massive imbalance, if someone can afford a Carrier and Dread (which a massive number of people can do) you will see everyone have one of these ships and dock it up and pull it out.


Really? Projected build costs for a Supercarrier are 5 to 6 billion, meaning we'll probably see a price on TQ of 8 to 9 billion. A dread costs about 2.2 billion currently and a regular carrier 800 million.

So after the patch buying a supercarrier will cost 8-9 billion and a regular carrier + dread will cost you 3 billion. That makes the supercarrier rougly 3x as exepnsive as owning a dread and a carrier.

Quote:
fleets of 50 motherships for luls easy- from each 0.0 side in regular fleets replacing the carriers they used to have.


You'll see this anyway tbh.

Quote:
The docking will mean that its safe to undock kill something, redock, repair undock etc- you nerfed the moros' drones for this reason so your reimplimenting it with the supercarrier, a ship with even more firepower and EHP? So you would need to fix the docking time for these ships- another fix required.


First of all, the reason they nerfed the Moros, at least according to CCP, what that Ogres from a Moros typically did more dps than a carrier's fighters (why not just boost Fighter dps?) Second of all, repairing any significant damage to one of these EHP monsters in a station is going to cost a signficant amount of isk.

Besides which, all of this could be controlled by simply increasing the udock timer for these ships to 1 hour/30 minutes.


Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2009.11.15 19:28:00 - [1315]
 

Originally by: Karlemgne
Second of all, repairing any significant damage to one of these EHP monsters in a station is going to cost a signficant amount of isk.


Not if you own the outpost.

Karlemgne
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.11.15 19:32:00 - [1316]
 

Originally by: kapten sortebil
http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_Q3-2009.pdf

426 Characters in Moterships.
Page 6/25

And yes i canceld 4 accounts after this stupid nerf.


LoL. Every patch there are some emo posts like this. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, though I suspect that you didn't actually cancel your accounts. And if you did, good riddance. I never liked playing with people who would sit in the mud and cry when the game didn't go their way.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.15 20:01:00 - [1317]
 

Originally by: farfrael
Furthermore we're looking into solutions to reimburse current mothership pilots for the drop in construction cost.


Can I have some reimbursement for all the dysprosium I bought earlier and which being nerfed now? I lost many billions on that.

Seems pretty unfair to me why only a certain amount of people - those are yelling loudest - should get some reimbursement because of gameplay changes but all the others won't get reimbursement from gameplay changes.


Oh wait ... see what I did there?

Just LOL - fixed those damned moms and you don't need any reimbursements!!

casai
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Posted - 2009.11.15 20:04:00 - [1318]
 

Edited by: casai on 15/11/2009 20:06:10
what the **** about the lost isk for current ms pilots

Dont reduce the cost keep them the same FFS

Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist

Shigsy
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.15 20:27:00 - [1319]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: farfrael
Furthermore we're looking into solutions to reimburse current mothership pilots for the drop in construction cost.


Can I have some reimbursement for all the dysprosium I bought earlier and which being nerfed now? I lost many billions on that.

Seems pretty unfair to me why only a certain amount of people - those are yelling loudest - should get some reimbursement because of gameplay changes but all the others won't get reimbursement from gameplay changes.


Oh wait ... see what I did there?

Just LOL - fixed those damned moms and you don't need any reimbursements!!


Erm, direct mineral reduction in build != market speculation.

King Dave
Raven Dynamics
Posted - 2009.11.15 20:34:00 - [1320]
 

Edited by: King Dave on 15/11/2009 20:46:48
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: farfrael
Furthermore we're looking into solutions to reimburse current mothership pilots for the drop in construction cost.


Can I have some reimbursement for all the dysprosium I bought earlier and which being nerfed now? I lost many billions on that.

Seems pretty unfair to me why only a certain amount of people - those are yelling loudest - should get some reimbursement because of gameplay changes but all the others won't get reimbursement from gameplay changes.



There have been no game changes in the past which reduce the actual raw isk value of a ship or commodity (well there may of been but nowhere in the region of billions per unit). Only changes to the stats/ supply of modules or commodities which cause the demand and supply to find a new equlibrium price.

This is the equivilant to you buying 100,000 unit of dysprosium, then CCP taking 40% of it away from you, because they feel like it.


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