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McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:49:00 - [1201]
 

Originally by: thebarry
It seems quite obvious to me that ccp is just interfering with all the supercarrier speculation that's been going on. When the '5-6bn build cost' didn't shake things up, they went with the fake nerfbat. They're probably giggling at this threadnought...


considering they've actually made the changes on sisi, in description of the items and tables. Well I really don't think it's a sham, unless the bosses prefer to see their dev's hours spent on enraging the customer base. Which I really doubt.

at least they didnt have zulupark announce it that poor boy is still recovering from the last time the nerf bat was aimed at carriers/moms...

Ordais
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:31:00 - [1202]
 

They wanted to introduce a new ship? They should have done so.
They wanted to remove MoMs? They should have done so. (just replace old ones with isk/components/whatever)

But what you are doing here is one of the dumbest things you have done lately, and you have done your share in the past. Is this the downside on scram-teams you so prise these days?
Get your game-change every 2 weeks, as another team is working on them? Screw it up 2 weeks later with another team?

CCP has focused alot the past years to get more professional, or so they claim, hiring more ppl, but in the process they are getting slower on reaction-times (how long did you need to change sov again? to see how bad the DD was? the list is long...) and there is a concerning influx of other "publisher behaviours" going on now (the latest forum-topic-locks? trying to sneak in such drastic changes and keep it as quite as possible? pretending to listen to your playerbase by putting things on a long long list and then saying you needed years working issues out, who are you kidding?).

They say "we need time to make well thought out changes". Yea right, we see how well thought out you are doing "changes"...we have the best example right in front of us.

You wonder why we are all ****ed off? Well, isn't your motto something like "hardn the *uck up" in your rep-song? Well, back at you.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:33:00 - [1203]
 

Originally by: ByFstugan

- Let more ppl enjoy more ships and not only the filthy rich.


The non "filthy rich" have fairly good access to every ship in game except 2 (excluding uniques) and that isn't enough?


Quote:
Someone else above (MS owner) said that the changes for SC's might be a good change for the future (even if it hurt him abit), to give room for new supercapitals in the future.


So...new supercapitals like the one we were going to have before Nozh came out of his cage?

Phoenix vajaa
InternetSpaceShips
Inver Brass
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:37:00 - [1204]
 

Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 14/11/2009 16:37:49

41 pages.
35 of them agaisnt any change besides abathur stats.
5 against Docking/6bill cost. And still not happy with 15 drones really.

1 page of people happy they can afford a ship they have not earned and dnt care if the stats are broken and will cause massive game imbalances./ People happy to **** off vetterans.

NO PAGES OF EXPLINATION FROM CCP.
NO POST WITH EXPLINATION FROM CCP.

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.


Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:48:00 - [1205]
 

Well, if they wanted to make lowsec anymore **** they've achived it. I'm not looking forward to 3mil EHP supercapitals playing station games.

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:50:00 - [1206]
 

Edited by: SolarKnight on 14/11/2009 16:53:06
Originally by: Phoenix vajaa
Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 14/11/2009 16:37:49

41 pages.
35 of them agaisnt any change besides abathur stats.
5 against Docking/6bill cost. And still not happy with 15 drones really.

1 page of people happy they can afford a ship they have not earned and dnt care if the stats are broken and will cause massive game imbalances./ People happy to **** off vetterans.

NO PAGES OF EXPLINATION FROM CCP.
NO POST WITH EXPLINATION FROM CCP.

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.




This.

Rollback the changes, and if you must make a ship that can field 10 - 15 bomber drones, make a new ship, or at very least, leave the 20 fighters alone and increase bandwidth of the bombers.

Don't change what isn't broken.

Fleur D'oranger
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:00:00 - [1207]
 

I was going to get one before the changes. I'm still going to get one. I'm glad they're going to be able to dock. I'm glad they're cheaper and will be more likely to get used for something besides camping low sec gates by Rens (yeah, I'm looking at you Tri).

So they aren't solo-pwnmobile / status symbol anymore. Docking, a price that makes losing them not the end of the world, a specific role to play other than griefing = win. Hold where you are, CCP.

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:09:00 - [1208]
 

Chill out, they are just testing you guys out and lol'n right now Twisted Evil

Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:10:00 - [1209]
 

Originally by: Phoenix vajaa
Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 14/11/2009 16:37:49

41 pages.
35 of them agaisnt any change besides abathur stats.
5 against Docking/6bill cost. And still not happy with 15 drones really.

1 page of people happy they can afford a ship they have not earned and dnt care if the stats are broken and will cause massive game imbalances./ People happy to **** off vetterans.

NO PAGES OF EXPLINATION FROM CCP.
NO POST WITH EXPLINATION FROM CCP.

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.




Speaking as someone who one of these days might actually bother to sell his mothership char (superwut? pffft.) and who would profit greatly from these changes - but recognises that docking solopwnmobils is ******ed, f'in /signed.

The Nastrond
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:15:00 - [1210]
 

Originally by: Ryan Powers

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.[/b]



Or perhaps they figured out that ewar immune, 30m+ EHP, 12,000+ DPS ships were monstrously unbalanced (since their usage would skyrocket, 15-20b is easily affordable nowadays) and they decided to make them more reasonable.

Can you honestly say that the old sisi supercarrier changes wouldn't cause problems down the line? Unlike the titan AoE DDD, they stopped this one before it became problematic.

If the costs are being reduced, to stop the proliferation of large masses of supercarriers, insurance payouts should be removed completely on ships of this size class as well. Otherwise you'll see them being thrown about like today's carriers/dreads.

Stealthbug
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:17:00 - [1211]
 

Docking a supercarrier? Anywhere?

Perhaps I might consider one someday. But seriously, I thought the whole "docking supercarriers" was this big controversial thing. Why is CCP so quick to just come out and say, "Fine fine fine, 15 drones and you can dock. Happy?"

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:18:00 - [1212]
 

Originally by: The Nastrond
Originally by: Ryan Powers

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.[/b]



Or perhaps they figured out that ewar immune, 30m+ EHP, 12,000+ DPS ships were monstrously unbalanced (since their usage would skyrocket, 15-20b is easily affordable nowadays) and they decided to make them more reasonable.

Can you honestly say that the old sisi supercarrier changes wouldn't cause problems down the line? Unlike the titan AoE DDD, they stopped this one before it became problematic.

If the costs are being reduced, to stop the proliferation of large masses of supercarriers, insurance payouts should be removed completely on ships of this size class as well. Otherwise you'll see them being thrown about like today's carriers/dreads.


They will not stop proliferation by removing insurance on these things. you generally build supercapitals knowing you cannot insure them.

Also, the solution to making them more common is to drop the price? are you crazy? so to stop them becoming common you make them CHEAPER?

If they are able to dock, then everyone and their mother is going to buy them, they will obsolete carriers and we will see every low sec station/gate/WH entrance camped by these things.

If they had issues with the dps of the bombers, then adjust the dps of the bombers, don't gimp every other balanced aspect of the ship.

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:29:00 - [1213]
 

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 14/11/2009 17:44:37
Originally by: The Nastrond
30m+ EHP, 12,000+ DPS ships


Exactly which supercarrier had 30m+ EHP and 12K dps? The Nyxeon?

sue denim
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:33:00 - [1214]
 

all the people clamoring about a 30min redock timer you suck it's a terrible idea :|

Just make so that if you are hic pointed you can not dock, end o story.

Natasha Coutah
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:42:00 - [1215]
 

I thank you For considering the POST with the reinbursement for current supercarriers. A few issues i wish to address are the following.
1.Due to the new Supercannon on titans you removed there ability to attack POSes. New 5-6bn MoMs will flood the market and there EWAR immunity which they should have will make them the primary fleet to attack POSes and MODs because unless there is a interdictor the pos or defenses pretty much can do zero even if manned.
2.Seeing i understand the point to make these ships like the Supercarriers of the world today these things must be taken into thought.
A: Recucing fighters/bombers in sense removes the versitility and ability to defend the Supercarriers making it nothing more then a Carrier with More HP. To classify as somthing a supercarrier in RL it had to have Survivability,Versitility,and Longevity which is what it seems like your trying. Docking is not an issue as to you already have that covered in upgrades.
B: Survivability you have with EWAR immunity and Enhancement of its EHP.
C: Versitility you helped with the implimentation of bombers howeever limiting there numbers as much as done removes it from being a commanding pressence.
D: Longevity you enhanced alittle by makingit able to jump alittle farther but if this is big its not enough.

Supercarriers IRL are a rarity and only the richest nations can afford them you need to consider this in your modifications in game because obviously there are alot of pilots already and the numbers will flood in smaller costs.

Susy Assulu
Caldari
Atomic Mexicans
Posted - 2009.11.14 17:44:00 - [1216]
 

Originally by: Phoenix vajaa
Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 14/11/2009 16:37:49

41 pages.
35 of them agaisnt any change besides abathur stats.
5 against Docking/6bill cost. And still not happy with 15 drones really.

1 page of people happy they can afford a ship they have not earned and dnt care if the stats are broken and will cause massive game imbalances./ People happy to **** off vetterans.

NO PAGES OF EXPLINATION FROM CCP.
NO POST WITH EXPLINATION FROM CCP.

2 POSTS FROM CCP THAT HAVE CAUSED A PROBLEM THAT WAS NOT NEEDED.




This, and the people saying you can't insure super caps blah blah blah. You can insure super caps the devs will put you in the station afaik.

Severion Atarkos
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:02:00 - [1217]
 

So you took something that actually looked good for a change and made it bad, then took that situation and made it even worse?...

I really don't know what to think of CCP anymore, nozh has obviously never played the game a day in his life and I cannot believe that the senior devs would allow some halfwit to ruin sel and companies work.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:15:00 - [1218]
 

my take on this is that Abathur and all his team went to christmas vacations and left Nozh on the wheel.

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:27:00 - [1219]
 

Originally by: Maria Dalin
Well, Hopefully someone within CCP reads this and realizes what they are about to do with the game. Im one of them luckey few that have bought 2 ms's within the last 4 weeks, so ill lose like what? 30b? on this insane crap. Really wish someone within CCP would grow a pair of balls and acctually comment on this..


I bought a flat screen TV. The price is now 1/3 of what I paid. Did I go back to the shop & ask for a refund- no. The timing of your purchase is somewhat unfortunate but alas prices can & do change. Perhaps what sticks in your throat more is the fact that CCP sold you the sizzle & all your getting now is a raw sausage with little meat.

I suspect that there are reasons behind the changes to the motherships which are political & as such we never might not get to know CCP's real intent or why we were mislead in the way we were & that for me is the sad part.

So, CCP continue to take our monthly subs- feed us bullcrap then shaft us where is hurts most & leave us with the only option to put up with it or biomass.

Jaron Terrkin
ZERO T0LERANCE
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:29:00 - [1220]
 

Edited by: Jaron Terrkin on 14/11/2009 18:31:39
I absolute agree with the previous poster.

Get back to you r frist idea ccp that was the best one :)

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:30:00 - [1221]
 

Ok so here's what I'm seeing

Sov 4 breaks

The mom cost is cheap BUT still is 4 weeks before skills and such.

Mom has ewar immunity... even though that means practically nothing.
Mom gets ehp boost.

Mom loses 5 drones and gets the ability to dock.


From what I am seeing. They have balanced it such that losing a baby mothership in the csaa isnt bad as now.

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:32:00 - [1222]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Ok so here's what I'm seeing

Sov 4 breaks

The mom cost is cheap BUT still is 4 weeks before skills and such.

Mom has ewar immunity... even though that means practically nothing.
Mom gets ehp boost.

Mom loses 5 drones and gets the ability to dock.


From what I am seeing. They have balanced it such that every existing supercarrier pilot now hates ccp to the point of self destructing their ships meanwhile every pirate suddenly has a wet dream and the game approaches NGE status.


fixed

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.14 18:33:00 - [1223]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 14/11/2009 18:37:16
Originally by: Pteranodon

I bought a flat screen TV. The price is now 1/3 of what I paid. Did I go back to the shop & ask for a refund- no. The timing of your purchase is somewhat unfortunate but alas prices can & do change. Perhaps what sticks in your throat more is the fact that CCP sold you the sizzle & all your getting now is a raw sausage with little meat.
.


This is not a good analagy. The reason why? When I bought my Plasma, I *expected* and *knew* that newer technology would come out and the value of my TV would decline over time.

In this situation though, we expect the "market" value of the ship to change based off of how usefull and in demand the ship is...in addition to mineral prices.

But having the "build price" change because the devs want to tweak the components used, that is not something that normally happens nor could one expect. I want the difference in build cost - not market cost - refunded to me.

The easiest way to do this is allow me to dock pre-dominion and refine my ship so I get all of the original parts back and recoup that money.


But better yet, return the changes to abathurs design and increase the build cost 50-100%. That's the way to fix this mess.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:08:00 - [1224]
 




*IF* supercarriers will be able to dock *THEN* the docking-mechanics SERIOUSLY need a remake.


For example: ship-specific docking timers.

Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:10:00 - [1225]
 

Is there ANYONE who thinks these changes will go live ... or even last a few days past Monday, when the grown-ups get back in the office and meet with our dearly demented CCP Nozh?


Zarazaa
Scarlet Blood
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:16:00 - [1226]
 

Originally by: Serena Ku
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/11/2009 10:17:06
How about:
- Keep the EHP buff
- Let it launch 20 drones (needs that for self protection against smaller ships)
- Limit the bandwith so it can only launch 15 FBs (still 20 fighters) (still does enough damage?)
- Keep the price and buildtime as it is so they dont proliferate like mad
- If you must let them dock that can only happen with a 1 hour redock timer or something

and

- Perhaps make a 2nd "supercarrier" that can use fighterbombers, doesnt have ew immunity, cant use clone vat bay and so on. Gives the newer players something inbetween reg caps and supercaps to look forward to.

Current mom owners doesnt want to see their ship reduced to another carrier class and ppl that doesnt have a ms wants a better ship than what the carrier class today offers. Its good to have goals to strive for, its what keeps ppl playing. Reducing a mom to a "cheap" and accessible ship removes a dream from the game. The step up to a Titan is way to wide for a "regular" player. Thus the mom with its current pricerange and with some buffed abilities ends up as the perfect engame for regular players. We need our dreams.



I am Serena Ku and I approve of this message.

Do it please CCP, fair win/win all around in my opinion. Cool

I am not Serena Ku and i do not support this message!

I have a beter one..

1'st Keep price changes in place, that will allow moms to be fielded in resonable numbers and actualy have an impact on the outcome of a cap fight, not like now, when you see the odd 4-5 moms in most cap fights, and have 0 impact on the end result..

2'nd Allow them to dock only in Outposts/Conquerable Stations where Repair Services can be incapacitated, that will prevent lol docking games in Low Sec and NPC Null Sec Stations..

3'rd the 15 Fighters/Fighter-Bombers are okish, allthough you can allways turn back to 20 Fighters and double the Fighter-Bmober bandwidth so that if can only pull out 10, either way it will work imo..

4'th The hitpoint boost, it's beyond ridiculous and gives the mesure of the 'Ttitan Rebalancing' fail..

Pretty nice job CCP.. why don't you do a simmilar one with the Titans!?

ps. Serena Ku is a peach!!

Clone 1
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:19:00 - [1227]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Is there ANYONE who thinks these changes will go live ... or even last a few days past Monday, when the grown-ups get back in the office and meet with our dearly demented CCP Nozh?




I dont know if these changes go live, or if Nozh is on some mad solo bender but the last time a nerf of this order happened he really wanted us to spread the blame.

CCP Nozh : "We expected such a drastic change to result in a lot of feedback. We did not expect the requests to prematurely end dear Zulupark's existence in this universe, some of which were *very* imaginative and in more ways than we thought possible. We'd like to point out all design matters are ratified in groups, so in the future, please include at least Hammerhead, Oveur and our janitor in any ill thoughts you may have as a result of EVE's direction. "

Linkage

I know the changes are annoying, but for me what is more annoying is the way these changes are ratified and presented, especially given the work Abathur was doing with testing, and information presented at fanfest, which was completely thrown out the window with things like massive build cost cuts and dockability. Which show more of Nozh's opinion of the capital community than his balancing ability. IMOSHO.

Nessa Aldeen
Caldari
The Sword and The Shield
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:30:00 - [1228]
 

Edited by: Nessa Aldeen on 14/11/2009 19:39:25
Edited by: Nessa Aldeen on 14/11/2009 19:37:35
the emorage is strong in this one..

Why shouldnt the SC be able to dock? It may be big but the price isnt that of a titan and neither are the skills. And prices have been dropping even before the announcement.

And no to the suggestion of nerfing the maintenance/corp hangar array thats just dumb. This ship is about the least used ship for the capital category. Halving it makes sense, letting it dock makes sense. Who wants to be in a ship that u cant get out of minus the titan? Make this ship more accesible and let it be more used in fleets.

Dock and undock issue? Right, so you're saying all SC pilot are without risk if they have the option of docking.. hell the carrier and the dread can do the same...thought so...just another lame argument so that you can push through your own agendas.

And for those who think it wont die, think again.. if titans can die to BS fleets, SC will die too if not even faster. And for whats it worth do u have the balls to fly 6-10b ship in pvp knowing it will?

I think most people who whine here abt how Nozh is <insert negative adjective> didnt read his post.. he said subject to changes.. so really, chill people and stop emoraging like a bunch of wow whiners.

Reduce the armor (maybe twice that of a carrier no more than that), increase the dmg and ffs let it DOCK!

I hope what Nozh proposes goes through esp the dock and halving the build cost.




Kkhaarn
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:31:00 - [1229]
 

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Hey,

We've made some further changes to super carriers after taking your feedback into consideration. It's quite understandable that the changes made were a disappointment to many of you, but I wanted to remind you that Singularity is a test server and all changes, even these are subject to change.

Compact Citadel Torpedo Changes:

  • Explosion Velocity: 60

  • Damage: 3200


Super Carrier Changes:

  • Can deploy 2 additional Fighter or Drone per level

  • Can dock at stations



Furthermore we're looking into solutions to reimburse current mothership pilots for the drop in construction cost.

That's all for now.

-Nozh





I can live with this!!!! I will take the cut in drones for docking in stations! <3 THANK YOU! Now lets work to make these changes permenant for Dominion. :_)

Kalissa
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.11.14 19:41:00 - [1230]
 

I've got a Wyvern and I can live with the proposed changes, I'm not happy about losing 5 fighters but that is offset by the ability to make it dock and with the addition of the fighter bombers.

Compensating us pilots who stand to make a drastic ISK loss on the ships is good too. I still think the Supercarriers need a little tweeking defensively though, but as I said as they stand I can live with it.

I think it's ironic though there are probably more people complaining about the changes than actually own one.


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