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Shasis
Kernel of War
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:06:00 - [1171]
 

Silly docking games with semi-Supercarriers now.

Dominion clearly spotted as worst expansion ever in EvE...

Next step: cynos in hisec? Bombs in empire ?

Seriously...


The "Nerf/community legit whine/ok, we well half the nerf to pass through the community" politics of those days makes me sad, CCP. I thought you were better than that, obviously I was wrong.

Fogy
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:22:00 - [1172]
 

Originally by: xplosiv
So explination for this s**t storm?

Brain damage.

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:24:00 - [1173]
 

Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/11/2009 12:24:07
Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/11/2009 11:58:19
How about:
- Keep the EHP buff
- Let it launch 20 drones (needs that for self protection against smaller ships)
- Limit the bandwith so it can only launch 15 FBs (still 20 fighters) (still does enough damage?)
- Keep the price and buildtime as it is so they dont proliferate like mad
- If you must let them dock that can only happen with a 1 hour redock timer or something

and

- Perhaps make a 2nd "supercarrier" that can use fighterbombers, doesnt have ew immunity, cant use clone vat bay and so on. Gives the newer players something inbetween reg caps and supercaps to look forward to.

Current mom owners doesnt want to see their ship reduced to another carrier class and ppl that doesnt have a ms wants a better ship than what the carrier class today offers. Its good to have goals to strive for, its what keeps ppl playing. Reducing a mom to a "cheap" and accessible ship removes a dream from the game. The step up to a Titan is way to wide for a "regular" player. Thus the mom with its current pricerange and with some buffed abilities ends up as the perfect endgame for regular players. We need our dreams.



Addendum: Like others have suggested previously. What youre looking into is a T2 carrier, just set skill reqs to lvl 5 carrier and whatever else to lvl 5 as prereqs, change the paintjob, up the HP to somewhere between carrier and ms like one third of MS. Stats can be tweaked as long as their "purpose" is decided before release (Work in Progress). The community seams to have defined their role together with you in this thread.

Whatever thoughts u had about a "future mothership", dont we already have a supercapital that kinda lacks purpose (at least with current sisi stats)? Can't ur grand thoughts for future features be incorporated in the two ships we now have?

Tweak what we already have, add new content to fill gaps. Don't change what we have and then later put something else in its place...


Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:40:00 - [1174]
 

LOL.

Pirates cry harder than the carebears they always smack on about. Laughing

Want your dummy's back?


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:55:00 - [1175]
 

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Edited by: Aequitas Veritas on 14/11/2009 11:58:19
How about:
- Keep the EHP buff
- Let it launch 20 drones (needs that for self protection against smaller ships)
- Limit the bandwith so it can only launch 15 FBs (still 20 fighters) (still does enough damage?)
- Keep the price and buildtime as it is so they dont proliferate like mad
- If you must let them dock that can only happen with a 1 hour redock timer or something

and

- Perhaps make a 2nd "supercarrier" that can use fighterbombers, doesnt have ew immunity, cant use clone vat bay and so on. Gives the newer players something inbetween reg caps and supercaps to look forward to.

Current mom owners doesnt want to see their ship reduced to another carrier class and ppl that doesnt have a ms wants a better ship than what the carrier class today offers. Its good to have goals to strive for, its what keeps ppl playing. Reducing a mom to a "cheap" and accessible ship removes a dream from the game. The step up to a Titan is way to wide for a "regular" player. Thus the mom with its current pricerange and with some buffed abilities ends up as the perfect endgame for regular players. We need our dreams.



This is what they should have done from the beginning. It now seems CCPs idea for MOMs developed during the testing process to a totally different type of ship from the original. Now they seem to try to appease everyone with their one bomber carrier, instead of leaving the buffed MOM as is and just creating a new carrier to meet those new additional goals. Your proposed plan seems much more reasonable and better for all concerned.

King Dave
Raven Dynamics
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:59:00 - [1176]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
LOL.

Pirates cry harder than the carebears they always smack on about. Laughing

Want your dummy's back?




Carebears cry more about losing 10% of their income which they havn't got, imagine if CCP took 10 billion isk from them each. Rolling Eyes

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:01:00 - [1177]
 

TBH,

I'm pretty sure the CCP nolonger want your Nyx's, Aeons, Wyverns and Hel's to continue being end game top of the food chain ships....


http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=696

I'm starting to change my perceptive on the issue and probably believe they should be nerfed a considerable amount to make way for new ship classes in future. Not that this would make current owners (including myself) happy however with some sort of compensation (that didn't create rampant deflation in a specific market) it could work even though it would be a bitter pill.

However, if they are going to become dockable...

Drastically cut the ship maintaince bay, corporate hanger size
Increase the max jump range, but give a fuel consumption penalty
Increase capacitor size (by 2-3 times) but reduce the overall base cap recharge to less than previous
Cannot use triage
Reduce highslots to 5.
Give specific 1-24 hour redocking timer
Possibly reduce remote repearing range bonus
15 Fighter bombers
Reduce max velocity of fighter bombers to 700m/s
1900m explosion radius for compact torpedoes

Now it's focused for damage dealing and anti-capital operations...

You could even make another super capital focused to logistics (both travel and fleet) giving each capital a purpose instead of just rampent power creep.

A real mothership when eventually introduced would probably be higher than a Titan on the food chain, if and when the CCP where able to actually dedicate resources to making on.

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:06:00 - [1178]
 

Originally by: King Dave
Originally by: Mkiaki
LOL.

Pirates cry harder than the carebears they always smack on about. Laughing

Want your dummy's back?




Carebears cry more about losing 10% of their income which they havn't got, imagine if CCP took 10 billion isk from them each. Rolling Eyes


Ahh, but you pirate types claim to be tough and able to handle anything Laughing, and here you are screaming about internet spaceships, and fake cash

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:10:00 - [1179]
 

Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 14/11/2009 13:10:33
Don't feed the (really awful) professional trolls guys. Confused

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:13:00 - [1180]
 

Edited by: TZeer on 14/11/2009 13:22:50
I`m out of words...

You had:
- Ship that cost 16-20 Bil ( limiting factor )
- Not dockable ( another limiting factor )
- Did 2x Damage then normal carrier with drones and fighters
- Had a REAL anti capital weapon in the fighter bombers

Now you have:
- Ship that costs 7-10 Bil ( More people can afford it )
- Dockable ( No need for a dedicated character )
- Combat ship that will also work as a logistic ship, I guess many will use it as one ( 2,5 mil ship array, can bring your own personal hangar everywhere you go )
- Massive HP buffer, hello undock/docking games
- EW immune, no way to break their spider tank.


So basically CCP used 2 months with testing, got good feedback. No words at all that they where looking at such drastic chahnges. Then suddenly 2 weeks before expansion they turn everything upside down. Makes them basically useless. And now, 3 days later they suddenly gives the "thumbs up" to make em dock. And opening a whole new can of worms in the process...

You are now making the supercarrier all that will be needed in fleets or large engagements.

Get 30 supercarriers, worth about 180 bil, chump change for a big alliance, spider tank the crap out of each other and you are looking at ships with 30-40 mil EHP, with a 90000 DPS spidertank. And about 45000 DPS damage if everyone can field 15 fighters.

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Some numbers for fun:

Average DPS from a sniping BS is about 350 to 400 DPS. Lets say 400 DPS. With a 90000 DPS spider tank, you would need 225 BS just to get even with the tank. With an average volley damage of 3000, you do 675000 in volley damage...


Cassius Hawkeye
Minmatar
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:24:00 - [1181]
 

Edited by: Cassius Hawkeye on 14/11/2009 13:28:47
An utterly ridiculous idea - and appallingly implemented.

Turned from an awesome idea into first something silly - reducing drones, explosive velocity, then the suicidal part was halving the build cost - CCP what are you thinking???

Do us a favour - do not implement any of the proposed changes and leave the supercaps as they were - lots of ppl were looking forward to dominion. Not so now.

Ne0tr0n
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:26:00 - [1182]
 

everyone stop discussing how the new supercarriers can be or what not

there is no ****ing compromise in any form for nozh

change the SC back to last weeks state or remove it from the game!
thats 2 possibilities you have, no more no less

Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:27:00 - [1183]
 

Originally by: TZeer
Edited by: TZeer on 14/11/2009 13:22:50
I`m out of words...

You had:
- Ship that cost 16-20 Bil ( limiting factor )
- Not dockable ( another limiting factor )
- Did 2x Damage then normal carrier with drones and fighters
- Had a REAL anti capital weapon in the fighter bombers

Now you have:
- Ship that costs 7-10 Bil ( More people can afford it )
- Dockable ( No need for a dedicated character )
- Combat ship that will also work as a logistic ship, I guess many will use it as one ( 2,5 mil ship array, can bring your own personal hangar everywhere you go )
- Massive HP buffer, hello undock/docking games
- EW immune, no way to break their spider tank.


So basically CCP used 2 months with testing, got good feedback. No words at all that they where looking at such drastic chahnges. Then suddenly 2 weeks before expansion they turn everything upside down. Makes them basically useless. And now, 3 days later they suddenly gives the "thumbs up" to make em dock. And opening a whole new can of worms in the process...

You are now making the supercarrier all that will be needed in fleets or large engagements.

Get 30 supercarriers, worth about 180 bil, chump change for a big alliance, spider tank the crap out of each other and you are looking at ships with 30-40 mil EHP, with a 90000 DPS spidertank. And about 45000 DPS damage if everyone can field 15 fighters.

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Some numbers for fun:

Average DPS from a sniping BS is about 350 to 400 DPS. Lets say 400 DPS. With a 90000 DPS spider tank, you would need 225 BS just to get even with the tank. With an average volley damage of 3000, you do 675000 in volley damage...




Excellent post. Cool

Clone 1
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:34:00 - [1184]
 

Docking supercarriers ? Are you completely mad?

This was discussed for a few seconds at the capital roundtable at fanfest, and rightly so laughed off as insane by the dev at the table. It was mentioned that maybe, and really maybe that an upgrade to outposts would allow these ships to dock, but would cost a lot.

How can you go from this sanity to the complete and utter tripe that you propose just weeks before patch?


Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:41:00 - [1185]
 

Originally by: Clone 1
Docking supercarriers ? Are you completely mad?

This was discussed for a few seconds at the capital roundtable at fanfest, and rightly so laughed off as insane by the dev at the table. It was mentioned that maybe, and really maybe that an upgrade to outposts would allow these ships to dock, but would cost a lot.

How can you go from this sanity to the complete and utter tripe that you propose just weeks before patch?




VodkaExclamation

Tarac Nor
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:43:00 - [1186]
 

From what i can tell from the changes to the changes etc i give props to CCP for attempting to compromise. you just need a class between the new moms and titans. Also props for a possible compensation to current builders and people selling current moms. You wont please everyone and trying to is just foolish. But i still think that docking is totally from left field i wasn't expecting that.

Glassback
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:56:00 - [1187]
 

Can you make them use gates and acceleration gates so I can run missions in them?

Kochi Pikla
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:59:00 - [1188]
 

you guys can create a tech2 carrier with your actuall "supercarrier" bonus and leave the motherships alone.
nozh you really suck at understanding things and you really suck at creating stuff you have no imagination... but all answers you need are write by your customer (lol4u) in this thread , so you should take a day to read it or maybe leave the project design to an other guy...

nozhArrowugh

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2009.11.14 14:00:00 - [1189]
 

cant wait for the whines about station hugging games with unkillable motherships in huge dock radius stations after this goes live, because believe me thats what this ship is gonna be used for most once they can dock

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.14 14:17:00 - [1190]
 

Originally by: Gneeznow
cant wait for the whines about station hugging games with unkillable motherships in huge dock radius stations after this goes live, because believe me thats what this ship is gonna be used for most once they can dock


Yes, and your point is?

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.11.14 14:48:00 - [1191]
 

Why the Vets are ****ed 101:

Producers:
  • Capital Component BPO Set: 25 Billion
    Mothership BPO: 16-17 Billion
    Research: 0.5-1.0 Year
    Production Training: .5 Year
    Capital Ship Assembly Array: 1 Billion
    Death Star POS: 1-3 Billion
    Mineral/Component Investment: 12 Billion sitting in a POS for 3 weeks

These assets have been slashed in value. BPOs of this order are like Ed Norton in Fight Club... (paraphrased)"..That was the last couch I would need to buy, if anything happens I always have that couch..." My point is yes things happen and investments become lower in value, with mothership uselessness over the last few years, the Producers have already been dealing with that. Older Producers only advantage is they had more time to pay themselves back on their investment, newer producers are still in deep debt to themselves for the blueprint purchases.

Pilots:
Veteran Pilots are ****ed and they should be. Think of things like this, when you buy a car for the first time, you either buy a crappy one, or get a good loan (or bad one) and pay for years to get the car. Then when it's time for a new one you trade in the old car which still has some considerable value if you took care of it. That's what Motherships are in eve. Just like Rarities like the Guardian Vexors/Fed Issue/State Issue/Tribal/etc. Only difference is they aren't 1 of a kind, but still hold their value considerably due to the resources required to build them.

For most vet mom pilots when they think about their mothership they think to themselves, if things are ever so crappy I can just sell that investment and get some cash back for a new project/thing/shiney. CCP just took that away from them, by depreciating the value to 60% what they paid.

Newer Pilots love the idea of sticking it to the bitter old vets because we vets have only advantages in their eyes. Except the years of wasted training, removed skills, revamped mechanics, nerfs, boosts, changes and etc we've had to deal with over the years.

I see a lot of people posting about how these ships shouldn't just be for the richest people in eve. Well I know many mom Pilots, I am one, and I spent a very long time mining/plexing/missioning/trading to buy mine. Now I'm getting ready to buy another, and I've already invested the last year into the project in training the pilot and another character to garage it, mining ice, running missions, daytrading in jita, Jump Freightering goods to nullsec, scouring contracts for deals and selling some assets to meet that goal.

So to all new players I say this, when you're ready to make the time investment, get one. Making them cheaper just screws over too many people new, mid-age and vets alike.

Docking would be great at first, and I would really like this so I can cancel the two garage character accounts. Believe me I would like to save that 600mil isk a month on two accounts I really don't use for anything but parking SuperCaps and market checkers.

As a counterpoint to the proliferation of the ships due to docking, most will probably never undock as most lowsec is patrolled by badasses like Cry Havoc or Beyond Divinity with Dread Fleets Hotdrop Ready. We will see some funny failmails I can guarantee that.

kaplowwwwwwwwwwwww
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:00:00 - [1192]
 

I support leaving these ships alone and making a new class of carrier that costs 6bill and can use 10 fb's

Mhorbaine
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:03:00 - [1193]
 

Originally by: McFly

As a counterpoint to the proliferation of the ships due to docking, most will probably never undock as most lowsec is patrolled by badasses like Cry Havoc or Beyond Divinity with Dread Fleets Hotdrop Ready. We will see some funny failmails I can guarantee that.


agreed wi most of the post above, and much as i'd like to use us as a darwinian method of removing station camping supercarriers (much like various dreads/carriers over the past year), the sheer scale or nukin one of thse shipsmakes it unviable for even a hel... 2mill raw armor... say 50s from jumpin/seige/lock.... just not gonnae happen unless you bring a huge blob n then you have lag/desync to figure in too...

allowing supcaps to dock = bad, no matter how they try n dress it up... moms pilots have always had to work out how to run garage accs/cyno alts etc its part of the parcel when u get the ship

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:03:00 - [1194]
 

Originally by: McFly

As a counterpoint to the proliferation of the ships due to docking, most will probably never undock as most lowsec is patrolled by badasses like Cry Havoc or Beyond Divinity with Dread Fleets Hotdrop Ready. We will see some funny failmails I can guarantee that.


Yea, we are totally gonna drop 200 dreads on a MS...

ByFstugan
Big Shadows
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:06:00 - [1195]
 

There are an insane amount of emo atm; with many posts mostly smacking and namedropping, very often without any motivation to the reasons. The largest topics is the docking and the price, and the solution is that "there is no other solution but to keep it as it is" from most people. Now I get that people are against change, that's common for humans - but the narrowmindedness that goes with it is not called for (however typical humant that also might be).

The docking!
This is not something that's impossible to implement without ruining the game, it just need to be made wisely. Possible solutions:
- Make the SC's not able to use offensive modules within or to close to dockinggrid at stations. (similar solution as for smartboms in empire)
- Make SC's only able to dock in upgrades player owned stations.
- Make SC's only able to dock in player owned stations (with restrictions in use?)
- Stop being obsessed with what U think a super capital is and how the SC's should be defined and let the game evolution have its course.

The pricing!
There's an idea of this ships should not be to common, mostly due to old way of thought. Possible solutions:
- Stop being obsessed with what U think a super capital is and how the SC's should be defined and let the game evolution have its course.
- Let more ppl enjoy more ships and not only the filthy rich.


Someone else above (MS owner) said that the changes for SC's might be a good change for the future (even if it hurt him abit), to give room for new supercapitals in the future. I think that's so, and in all that many need to stop being obsessed with what U think a super capital is and how the SC's should be defined and let the game evolution have its course. Did I say that already? :)

It looks in much as a borderline party in this thread where all suggestions are either (mostly) very stupid or the only one to make (or not make). There must be a more sane way to make arguments for what should or should not be implemented in this topic.

Raiga88
Caldari
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:07:00 - [1196]
 

CCP EITHER ROLL BACK THE CRAZY CHANGES

OR

ATLEAST GIVE US SOME OF THE STUFF YOU ARE SMOKING/DRINKING

sg3s
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:19:00 - [1197]
 

Originally by: Saul Reaver
Originally by: sg3s
Once again, whining seems to have actually helped.... *sigh*

Although I do agree previous changes were somewhat over the top.


Whining? Well, Why don't you spend 6 months of non stop mining/ratting/plexing for a ship only for it to be nerfed to hell and back and see how you feel?
We are not talking about Battleships and carriers which are **** easy to build.
These ships take alot of time and effort to save for and build and every future/current Supercarrier pilot has every right to voice their concerns over their investment.


I'm not saying that the new changes were a bad thing, well I guess I am, but I also said that the changes that went before were over the top... In fact totally irrational if you think about it...

The problem with it is that it seems as if it's only been player *cough*feedback*cough* that stimulated the change, same as with sov mechanics... It's ruining the forums, I do not wish to see threads 80% flame and outcry rather than constructive feedback over every little change in the future...

If you read up a few more pages (page 36) I posted a reply what my biggest concern is with these new changes (as many pointed out, the docking part), together with a possible alternative.

thebarry
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:39:00 - [1198]
 

It seems quite obvious to me that ccp is just interfering with all the supercarrier speculation that's been going on. When the '5-6bn build cost' didn't shake things up, they went with the fake nerfbat. They're probably giggling at this threadnought...

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:43:00 - [1199]
 

Originally by: Mhorbaine
Originally by: McFly

As a counterpoint to the proliferation of the ships due to docking, most will probably never undock as most lowsec is patrolled by badasses like Cry Havoc or Beyond Divinity with Dread Fleets Hotdrop Ready. We will see some funny failmails I can guarantee that.


agreed wi most of the post above, and much as i'd like to use us as a darwinian method of removing station camping supercarriers (much like various dreads/carriers over the past year), the sheer scale or nukin one of thse shipsmakes it unviable for even a hel... 2mill raw armor... say 50s from jumpin/seige/lock.... just not gonnae happen unless you bring a huge blob n then you have lag/desync to figure in too...

allowing supcaps to dock = bad, no matter how they try n dress it up... moms pilots have always had to work out how to run garage accs/cyno alts etc its part of the parcel when u get the ship


yah last bit was pretty weak argument was trying to come up with something that would at least have a bright side.... outpost pummelling will be a nightmare with 10 moms sitting there RRing for hours on end without aggression, and without fear. Hell with the new alarms on Shield/Armor/Hull, the pilots could go watch tv and just keep and ear out for the alarm to dock (free repair in outpost if your alliance does that) and get back to work.

Can't wait to see Lord Maldador's Pantheon Mothership Video.

CONCORDOKKENED
Posted - 2009.11.14 15:44:00 - [1200]
 

Edited by: CONCORDOKKENED on 14/11/2009 15:46:23
If supercarriers will actually be able to dock, there should be no compensation at all considered; each of these players no longer have to run an additional account/character garage which they'd be able to sell to someone wanting to hop into a supercarrier very easily.

It's also setting a precedent that would most certainly come back later in future changes. Don't cater to the whiners, they'll keep playing no matter what happens.

Also remove their ability to use remote-rep capital modules to prevent giant ewar immune spidertanks.


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