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Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:08:00 - [91]
 

Dumbing down WoW and dumbing down EVE isn't in the same ball park....or as Samuel J said...not even the same fin sport.

I have a friend that won't play EVE more than Aion because he just doesn't know what the hell is going on in EVE. It's too complicated for him...he thinks it looks cool...and I showed him some Screens of me using his drake and he's like...damn, that's cool. But EVE is vastly more complex than any other MMO. You die in those, you end up at a bind point or go out and get your corpse. You didn't lose anything but a little bit of time. Gear is easy, it's all basically the same...few stats and where it goes. EVE? You know how it is.

CCP could spend tons of time on new players and I doubt they would ever get this game to the point of WoW. I've done the tutorials and the new player stuff and it's really good, but it's still EVE. Totally different sport man...no way it gets easy. I doubt you have much to worry about.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:12:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Nocts
Originally by: Ban Doga
...
The flaw in your logic is that you assume I'm speaking about the UI. I'm not. Notice most of my examples included discovering formulas and doing a lot of activity manually that wasn't directly related to the user interface. I'm afraid that while you have a supporting argument, you're directing it at the wrong subject.


The difference might be the definition of UI.
For me the UI is the whole client. Not only how it looks but also which information is presented when and in which way.
The ways I can influence it and alternatives I have.

Regarding formulas:
The UI now shows whether your setup is cap-stable or not, how much excess cap recharge you have or when it will be depleted.
The game did not dumb down because these information are now displayed in the EVE client. The game was dumbed down the moment someone found a formula that matched the actual behaviour of the capacitor and started distributing it online and/or putting it into a tool. Because since that time this information is readily accessible to everyone. Because there was one less thing to be demystified.

I understand the excitement of exploring those things and the satisfaction one can get from finding a theoretical model that explains all observations.

But there is only so much to be explored in the game mechanics, only so many formulas to be found.
I don't think CCP can keep up with putting new mysteries of that kind into the game to keep the growing player base occupied.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:19:00 - [93]
 

The UI is not complex its plain rubbish. I'm used to a far more complex and flexible UI which I spend a lot of time and thought on to make it exactly how I want. This requires that I understand the game I am playing to a high level.

Making it usable will not only increase complexity by variation and choice but also allow new players to grasp the mechanics of the game faster. For me the UI is like a bad teacher, it makes simple concepts confusing. Item and skill descriptions compound that. That means many players are not exploring the full depth of the game simply through frustration.

Until CCP sort this I really think they will find any new player experience of limited benefit.

Scanning was tedious in the extreme before the changes. Again, you do not make something unique by making it boring or frustrating. That's not a smart way to design a game. Hardcore is not waiting a few more weeks. The changes mean CCP can bring out even more content for exploration and WH's which will increase complexity but in the right way.




Nocts
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:23:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Nocts on 20/11/2009 08:25:17
Originally by: Ban Doga
The difference might be the definition of UI.
My definition of the UI is the user interface that allows me to interact with the game world. This measures everything from forms to fields, clicking to windows. The client itself is not something I consider a user interface, but a client.
Quote:
The UI now shows whether your setup is cap-stable or not, how much excess cap recharge you have or when it will be depleted.
The feature, however, does not take into consider a lot of factors. Cap boosters, for instance, are not calculated into the equation nor does it give you a breakdown of how that capacitor is recharging, where from, and how much capacitor each module is using. While I don't think that should be a part of the client, those are the deeper aspects I'm referring to.
Quote:
But there is only so much to be explored in the game mechanics, only so many formulas to be found.I don't think CCP can keep up with putting new mysteries of that kind into the game to keep the growing player base occupied.
I agree, and don't think that I'm ignoring nor arguing against your direct point.

I can summarize my opinion by saying this: I can see why the older players (such as myself) are upset about various aspects of the game changing. Some of it is UI related, some of it mechanics, and some of it skill training. The broad spectrum of change is what we shake our heads at. Perhaps it's because we're afraid of change and preferred the challenge, however odd that may be to others. But I can say with certainty that it isn't because we feel we're "better because we did it harder". Our stance in elevation isn't relevant and not something I'd argue with you

Cheers Smile

Quote:
Hardcore is not waiting a few more weeks.
No. But patience is something that represents the originality of EVE, to many of us. The "slow burning candle" of a game is why we chose this over WoW and Counter-Strike. The long-term planning of it, even if that is just "waiting a few more weeks" to you.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.11.20 08:53:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 20/11/2009 08:56:25

It did need rebalancing I think and they should have done it some time ago when WH's came out. Rebalancing does not mean dumbing down. When I played several years ago for the first time hacking etc was not even in the game (from memory, it was a useless skill) and scanning was not complex it was tedious. Now its a mainstream profession and that's enforced on the player's as scanning is a requirement not 'a nice thing to have if you like to watch a bar for 30 minutes' as it was in the past. WH's changed all that. I do not see that as dumbing down as such although I can see why some would think it was. I resented having to train Survey V and did not think it was a clever or smart game mechanic to have to do so. It was wasting my time, the same as learning skills do.

Also in WOW I left soon after the last expansion when the game was dumbed down beyond recognition. EVE is not even close in the changes and attitude reflected in that game, which is clearly marketed for Children now. If CCP copied that formulae they would go bust, I'm sure they know that. So I'm not worried at all. I like the fact EVE is inaccessible to the lazy and the instant gratification crowd its the only reason I play it. The theme has no real interest to me. But I differentiate between something being hard core and something being simply hard due to bad design.

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 11:51:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players.

learning curve of popular mmo's graph

This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them Very Happy


Do you realize that this graph actually means that EVE Online is the easiest game to learn?

Because it shows that the player starts with the highest gaming skill of all 4 MMOs mentioned and then learns the fastest (gains the most gaming skill per time). And no matter how much time (s)he invests, the gaming skill will be the highest for all 4 MMOs.

But not only that.
After about 1 quarter of the time (even before WOW and POTBS intersect) the gaming skill reaches a global maximum. And while all the other MMOs still provide some room for learning and improvement the gaming skill in EVE just keeps constant.
I guess that means EVE is the easiest to learn and fastest to max out and then to be bored with.

But I got distracted...
What was it you wanted to say?


It's gaming skill, not in-game skills.

Zekran
Caldari
Nomad LLP
Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
Posted - 2009.11.20 20:03:00 - [97]
 

Excellent discussion. I love the challenge of EVE. I think the one thing any player of this game really needs to be successful is the courage to TRY what they want to do. I see so many of the newer players coming in and being afraid to go to 0.0 or whatnot. Little do they realize just how effective a t1 frigate can be, and how surprised people will be by a t1 frig. I was playing out in some NPC 0.0 the other night, a friend and I, and we spotted a bestower pilot who was tagged red. We quickly bought some frigs (we'd come in in covops ships). I had a punisher, he got an incursus. We undock to await the bestower pilot, and are engaged by a cerb. We forced him to dock! He came back with precision missiles and popped the incursus though =p

point being here, that the game that night was the most fun we'd had (because we then bought some assault frigs to go after him, was a stalemate all night but fun, he eventually brought a zealot to the party, 2 AF vs 2 HAC, we were forced to dock.) This awesome night didn't need a great deal of skills, and it cost us very little isk. The one problem I see in game, is people are too afraid to lose a ship. Eve doesn't take 50mil SP, it takes huge cahones.

However. as my corp will recruit younger players still, we run into the feeling of the newer players seems many times to be "I'll never "catch up" to the older players, so I can't go compete with them in this or that area". I think some of the problem is helped by the training bonuses and such, and not having them start with 0 SP or whatever, but, I think many of the older players may fail to realize this. I believe it is a legitimate concern. However, as stated above about just going balls to the wall, I try to get all our new guys, specially our pvp folks, into some t1 frigs for some low cost fun. Because once you've seen a new player in an incursus tackle a HAC or recon and hold it for the fleet while we kill it, and you hear that pilot on vent going WOW that was amazing! That's when you know you've just put the spark in them and taken away their fear of being unable to compete. Also, don't cater to all the "solo" guys, there's a place for it in EVE, but to experience the game, at least while you're still under 40-50mil SP, you need a group to survive and thrive. Solo pvp is very hard to find anyways, with the proliferation of alt chars (for scanning, reps, whatever).

-Z

tl:dr
don't need to lower skills reqs, need to raise intestinal fortitude reqs.

Tacoh
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:06:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Tacoh on 21/11/2009 02:23:01
Edited by: Tacoh on 21/11/2009 02:14:55
I say the 'juicy' spot is targeting the players between new players (2 months+) and the near vets (whatever you consider a veteran, minus whatever you think it would take to reduce it to a 'near vet' label)

i think people put to much focus on the beginning game, and 'end game'....why not target the in between? low end mid game to mid game, to high end mid game....
low end mid beginning game to the mid beginning, to the high end beginning game
low end mid'end game' to the mid of 'end game' to the high end mid 'end game'

low, mid, and high is referring to time, i tend its easier to think it as in lows, mids, highs

just so i make sure i'm making this clear enough (warning over simplification below)

low-low
^^^low mid = Low -->>Low mid-low
^^^low high^^^^^^^Low mid-mid
mid-low^^^^^^^^^^Low mid-high
^^^mid mid = Mid ---->>>>Mid mid-low
^^^mid high^^^^^^^^^^mid mid-mid
high-low high^^^^^^^^^^mid mid-high
^^^mid high =High-------->>>>>>>>High mid-low
^^^high high^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^high mid-mid
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^high mid-high

anybody get what i'm trying to get at? all the ^^^ is just space, means nothing, only to keep the format somewhat easier to read

:edit apparently i'm noob at the forum, seeing as the actual post didn't follow my format while i was making it


Berneh
LEGI0N
Everto Rex Regis
Posted - 2009.11.21 02:25:00 - [99]
 

when i first started eve it was tricky and i have been playing since 2004,

im still going so why change it ?

its only got easier for the newer players so far, create an alt and find out. it really is 100 times easier now for a noobie to play eve than it was back then,

stop whining and enjoy yourselves :D

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.11.21 09:55:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/11/2009 16:57:16

It may be easier for rookies than in the past, but overall the solo rookie experience in EvE is not much fun. There are plenty of things that would improve it without changing key game mechanics, but of course any such change is automatically resisted by existing players.

Join a helpful Corp? Learn from high-SP players? At any given time, there are far more active griefers than there are rookies. The odds are against a rookie getting to know a helpful, honest, knowledgeable, experienced player.

1. The most important lesson for a rookie is "don't trust other players".
2. The second is that the game is full of stupid undocumented tricks (example: the insane stuff you have to do to leave a low/noSec station safely)
3. Learning the tricks - see point 1 - you are far more likely to be lied to than taught


*Of course* rookies are overly cautious. It's a natural reaction to the way the game works.


Experienced players: the only way for a high-SP player to understand the current rookie experience is to create an alt, train it, and play it like a real rookie. Don't send it 500 million ISK, nor use your existing game contacts, nor any techniques a normal rookie doesn't do (ninja salvaging, trading, etc). Play to 5 mill SP, with the first 1.3 mill in "Learning" Skills. Don't play on any other EvE character while you're skilling up.

Comments about the rookie experience from players who haven't done this are meaningless.

Norian Lonark
Gallente
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:30:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue


The point of playing is to enjoy yourself not to wait months to get to play the full game. The access to most features and careers should not be heavily skillpoint dependant. Don't mistake this for removing all limits placed by skills or removing careers and specialisation. Some things are just so basic to the game, that everyone needs to be able to do it with very little training. Exploration might the the most recent example of this, since it has actually been changed to a basic thing from a more specialized one.

The specialisation needs to be maintained like it is with manufacturing, but that doesn't mean you should have to train weeks to start building your first T1 items. People need to be able to play and do as much as possible from the start and just expand their options and specialize as time goes on. It makes for a better game and propably helps CCP to retain more of those who try the trial offer.

My guess for the "dumbing down" would be, that CCP decided to put dev focus on exploration and related content, and turn them from a sideshow to a central act. That just means all the relevant skills needed to do it had to be easy to access. It also allows them to add new things using the system to all professions, since the SP investment to learn the basics is insignificant.[/justify]


I'm not a fan of the I want everything and I want to do everything now philosophy. I enjoy waiting for new skills so I can do more stuff and see my character develop. For me every time something starts getting easier and your just handed it on a plate the enjoyment level goes down.

mettisitis sindicis
Posted - 2009.11.24 14:13:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Norian Lonark
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue


The point of playing is to enjoy yourself not to wait months to get to play the full game. The access to most features and careers should not be heavily skillpoint dependant. Don't mistake this for removing all limits placed by skills or removing careers and specialisation. Some things are just so basic to the game, that everyone needs to be able to do it with very little training. Exploration might the the most recent example of this, since it has actually been changed to a basic thing from a more specialized one.

The specialisation needs to be maintained like it is with manufacturing, but that doesn't mean you should have to train weeks to start building your first T1 items. People need to be able to play and do as much as possible from the start and just expand their options and specialize as time goes on. It makes for a better game and propably helps CCP to retain more of those who try the trial offer.

My guess for the "dumbing down" would be, that CCP decided to put dev focus on exploration and related content, and turn them from a sideshow to a central act. That just means all the relevant skills needed to do it had to be easy to access. It also allows them to add new things using the system to all professions, since the SP investment to learn the basics is insignificant.[/justify]


I'm not a fan of the I want everything and I want to do everything now philosophy. I enjoy waiting for new skills so I can do more stuff and see my character develop. For me every time something starts getting easier and your just handed it on a plate the enjoyment level goes down.


It's not like it takes any effort to drop a skill in your queue and wait for it to train up. Longer skill training times is akin to repetetive grinding in other games. You think that is somehow enjoyable? To each his own, I guess.

AvaAlt
Posted - 2009.11.24 15:36:00 - [103]
 

I played Star Wars Galaxies for 6 years. Unless CCP can manage to trump the cluster****ery that SOE proudly trotted out as being "game enhancements" EVE has nothing to worry about, with one exception:

Dear CCP, your customer support sucks. The wait times for petitions and investigation into hacked accounts are ridiculous. The fact that people who did NOTHING to "enable" hackers (when slews of older, like 5 year, players get hacked, it isnt them clicking naked girly pics...) get cleaned out, replace their losses, ALL of it.

Other than this, you all are doing well. Ill be around a looong time. But yeah, SOE did have MUCH better customer support, in a game with a hell of a lot more bugs.

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.24 15:55:00 - [104]
 

I don't like all this discussion about "easy and hard"... it's just DIFFERENT now than it was then. It has to be, because this is 2009, not 2004. You cannot have a new player experience that feels like a video game from 2004, that would be stupid. It has to resonate with the videogame-scape we play today, not feel "old and busted". It was good enough for you back then, but it wouldn't be now if you had to give this game a try.

Trust me, you ask any new fish what he thinks of EVE online, he will tell you YEP, theirs a really steep learning curve, and it will kick your ass to learn. Every single veteran today has a story to tell, and the new people that are forging along right now are going to tell nearly the same exact story you are one day. "Oh yea, it was way harder back when i did it, kids these days have it sooooo easy".

Get real.

It's not better or worse, harder or easier, WOW-ified or whatever, its just DIFFERENT.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.24 16:00:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
I think I understand the worry and concern that we are doing a lot for new players, especially compared to the past where we did ...hardly anything for new players.

learning curve of popular mmo's graph

This picture is very funny but in EVE it was very very hard to learn the basics and we are changing that now. We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them Very Happy


Err, no?

It was really pretty easy to get into Eve. When I started a couple of years ago there were no tutorials, you got no starter isk etc.

But there were good PEOPLE which helped.

And seriously, if people cannot even cope with such a simple game as Eve, they have really no business doing stuff at all - you can make tons of tutorials for them, they still wouldn't get it!

Mind you, I am not against making things easier to access. But you don't. You focus on the totally wrong things. Make the UI more user-friendly, give the players more ways to reward fellow players (yay for medals? Rolling Eyes), strengthen the player-player interaction.

Stop doing those nonsense tutorials! The best support are PLAYERS so make things player friendly! And keep away stupid people.

Really, Eve wasn't hard to start with in those days, the learning curve is funny but pretty much nonsense. The only truth is that Eve has many aspects so that you can keep discovering things for a long time - that is good. But that has nothing to do with being newbie-unfriendly.

And yes, I predict Eve a pretty hard crash after Dominion.

Things are boiling up now for years, totally unfinished aspects of the game which were promissed to be watched but then absolutely ignored - I don't even know where to start with the list of unfinished and almost-broken things. But instead of fixing and improving things what you do? Add new features which are also pretty much broken from the beginning. And now you even start a completely NEW game and put tons of devs to that, DUST514. Aren't there enough things in Eve to fix??? LOL

And why? Because of new players, new players, new players. Yeah, is good to see more players in Eve and to have a more diverse income base. Yet players which play 3 months for free and then quit for good are the wrong customers. But you still try to fish them in big time and at the same time you scare away your most loyal players, the old-timers: look at your newest expansion and how it is recieved by the most experienced playerbase and how you handle any critizism.


You totally lost the vision for Eve.


Once you were able to dream about having one day an empire of universal scale. After dominion you can at best grind some pew pew about a moon or a system.


Eve was once a long-term strategic game with tactical elements. Now it is at best some tactical mmo shooter.


Yeah, I know: I am ranting and much of the critique is overdrawn and too strong but no one would listen otherwise. I am just sad to see Eve going down like this, so bear with me.

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2009.11.24 16:37:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
We won't change the complexity of EVE, but we try to explain various concepts so that new players have an idea of what is going on around them Very Happy


'You must learn to walk before you run'.

When exploration was first released, my corpmates and I lived in a .4 system. I got bored one night and asked my CEO what I should do. His response was "Explore". I did.

I got a hit first try. I spent the next 6 hours probing down a single site (crappy skills and a hard to find site). I laughed, I cried (not really), and at times I doubted my sanity (yes, really). Every time I was ready to log, I would get a hit that moved me one step closer.

I found the site around 1:30am AKST, a grav site with 120 Gneiss roids. I spent hours mining, even calling in to work sick, as it was a small fortune in Zyd for the corp at the time. The sense of accomplishment I got from finally finding that site (and subsequently defending it from another player) was immense.

With the new system, I can find anything that's not actively piloted ships in under 8 minutes and most sites within 5 minutes. I'm far more productive now, but damn if I don't occasionally wish for the old scanning system and another hard to find site.

I feel some of the changes, like probing, cheapen Eve by removing some of the challenge and subsequent sense of accomplishment. Yes it makes it easier for new players, but sometimes easier isn't better. Not to trot out an old cliche, but sometimes the reward in a journey is not the destination but in the paths taken.

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.24 18:57:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran


'You must learn to walk before you run'.




'You must learn to walk before you run'.

When the new exploration was released, my corp and I operated in high sec and mostly mined and such. I got bored one night and asked my CEO what I should do. His response was "Explore". I did.

I fit a cheap core probe launcher on my tech 1 frigate, a couple of rigs to augment my crappy skills and through out my probes. I got a hit first try! It took me about 15 mins to figure it out, but each time I was about to give up, I saw the colour go from red, to yellow, then finally green!

It was an unknown wormhole, and my corp told me I shouldn't go in but you know what? what kind of an explorer would I be if I turned back now? So I went in, through out another probe and was amazed to see a few interesting signature. The thrill of feeling like I was in some other galaxy was something I'll never forget. I was so nervous, i was spamming direction every 20 seconds cause of course their was a star base on scan, and next thing you know it I noticed sister combat probes!!! It was so auxillarating, but i was smart enough to activate my prototype cloak cause my probes were already out there. Eventually, i found a SECOND wormhole inside this one. This one was a motherload of a system, over 12 combat sites on scan and countless signatures and NO POS!!! Needless to say, I dropped bookmarks, skirted back and got my drake. I stayed up all night clearing that wormhole out and called out of work the next day to sleep.

I made a fortune for my corp in nannoribbons that day. I feel some of the changes, cheapen Eve by removing some of the challenge and subsequent senses of accomplishment. Yes it is easier for new guys now, but sometimes easier isn't better. Not to trot out an old cliche, but sometimes the reward in a journey is not the destination but in the paths taken.

See what I did there?

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2009.11.24 19:24:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Kalexander
See what I did there?


Indeed I do and nicely done. I was very happy to see you point out that someone with minimal skills and a T1 ship could find a wormhole within minutes and reap massive rewards.




Guttripper
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2009.11.24 19:29:00 - [109]
 

Perhaps the game has not been dumb down but the players are the culprit...?

Metalcali
Posted - 2009.11.25 06:15:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Kalexander
See what I did there?

And with this you have shown exactly what people are talking about, over simplified, non challenging rewards just to get more active accounts each month Smile

Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
Posted - 2009.11.25 09:57:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
There's nothing specific that I want brought into eve at the moment.

I'd like to see less focus on solo play, I'd like to see a better balance between empire and 0.0, I'd like to see more love given to older players and oh for the love of god I'd explode with joy if they gave me more complexity when it came to industry but there are no specifics.

As for dumbing down Eve, my first port of call would be probing, it used to be decently complex now any 3 day old character can do it hence the ninja mining boom(not that I have anything against the ninjas).

When wormholes turned up one of the devs made a comment about new people seeing them and thinking they were cool so joining and as such they needed to make it so new players could get to them quickly was a must.

Whereas most people I speak to see wormholes as end game PVE.

The up coming dominion expansion does overhaul the 0.0 sov setup but at the same time it doesn't.
In that the boreders will shrink but the patrolled territory will stay the same.
Any small alliances that decide to lay claim to space will get steam rollered the second anyone large finds them.

They're not adding enough incentive for people to go to 0.0 when lvl 4's are that safe and easy.

I can jump into most level 4's agro the room, drop drones and go watch TV.

Anyhow, it's the thin end of the wedge, the past expansions and the new one coming all seem to focus on making it easier for newer players.

That's where the comparison comes in.

I'm not comparing WoW and Eve as such, not the games anyhow, It's more comparing Blizzard and CCP's business model around the game.

Yes they need to make money to survive but if they becomes their soul focus then I'll be a very unhappy monkey indeed :(


Wait, What? LESS solo play? Of which solo play are you even referring to? Besides high sec mission running, it doesn't exist.

Goro Daimon
Posted - 2009.11.25 11:35:00 - [112]
 

The big big big problem of EVE is that it as grown to fast, a fleet of 200 dreadnoughts is not that uncommon, titans die and are easily replaced, everyone have billions isks.

The game should still be "XXXXX guys deployed 2 titans and 50 dreads, fuking amazing dude!!" and not "oh look they are attacking us with 100 dreads lol, bring the 15 titans and 200 dreads!"

An old player have basically nothing to achieve, skills maxed up in what he needs and many things he don't, no amazing stuff to defeat or complete, boring sov wars full of lag.. (lets hope dominion changes that), so what is left for a old player is politics.

If with Dominion things don't start to change I think we will see many (old) players starting to say bye bye EVE and others thinking about it.


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