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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:05:00 - [2671]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I honestly would love to run Cosmic Anomalies instead of doing belt ratting because they are far more interesting. But in typical CCP fashion they released them pre-nerfed and they are basically worthless when compared to normal belt ratting.


I keep seeing comments similar to this. You will be happy to know that anomalies will be getting bumped to be as lucurative as level 4's when fully upgraded. You gain 2 per upgrade (in addition to any that naturally occur), the respawn insantly and without limit. These 10 high end anomalies should keep quite a few people busy over a 23hr period (4-6hrs per person per anomaly over a period of a day adds up to quite a few people).


Yes, anomalies will be just as good as L4 missioning...unless there's a red in system. Or you're under attack. Or you run out of ammo. Or you get your anomaly-running ship trapped in an outpost held by reds. Remind me again why "it will eventually be as good as L4 missions" is supposed to be a good thing?

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Itzena
To what purpose? If there's nothing worth fighting over any more, and Alliance income is nerfed...why risk capfleets to seize more worthless space that will only cost money?


Nothing worth fighting for?

I don't like you. I want to see you die and your empire burn.


Hey, we all want to see that particular empire burn, it's why Yih has been having so much fun lately. Doesn't mean anyone is going to saddle up a trillion isk of cap ships to do it, though.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:07:00 - [2672]
 

Originally by: Adam Ridgway
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously. The biggest wars on earth were'nt fought over ressources, but because of religious, political or social reasons.


Not only you are clueless about EVE, you also are compeltlly clueless about RL. GTFO.


I'm not speaking of wars that happened in the last century... they were'nt that big actually, but you'll figure it out.

Kaydin Versailles
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:09:00 - [2673]
 

I have a different complaint than everyone else. I like how EVE tries to keep things believable most of the time, and although I know the names and descriptions are still a work in progress, they don't sound very natural at all. It makes the entire system seems mechanical, instead of feeling natural.

When I first heard of the ideas CCP had for the Sov changes, I imagined the additions to be more along the lines of discoveries. I thought we would be given the ability to unlock content that, in the world of EVE, already existed but was hidden and that a more natural approach would be taken to reveal these things.

I think it needs to be dressed up A LOT more. It breaks the immersion aspect greatly when Alliances are suppose to just purchase Pirate Magnets to increase the amount of pirates in their system(s) while paying their fortnightly fee too...who exactly? If you own the system and it's devoid of Concord/Empire control than who are you paying to and why can't you blow them up and make the additions yourself (for free!)?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:12:00 - [2674]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Terrible deadspace rats with awful loot/bounties.


No. Upgraded deadspace rats that generate income comparable to running level 4's, that respawn instantly and without limit.

Just keeping you honest, carry on.



No, top tier anomalies being barely on par if not worse than lvl4 missions.

Only a small percentage of anomalies are top tier.


I'd like you to stick to the facts Ranger 1.

Yun Cap
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:13:00 - [2675]
 

I'll try to be positive:

- About afk empires and sov cost.

If you want to force alliances to use their space or leave it, why not link cost to system use? Each time you kill a rat in a belt, sov upkeep reduces by x ISK, each time a roid is cleared, reduce y from upkeep, each time an anomally is cleared, reduce z from upkeep, each time a plex is completed, reduce upkeep... This could make upkeep near 0 if the system is used constantly and i think fits with the idea of active empires and would reduce the weight on individual player of sov manteniance. You do it working-living there, not just paying.


- About getting fights-conquest.

Right now with this changes, why an alliance would bother in conquest space if the cost of sov is bigger than the benefits? This are my ideas:

- Make outpost-hubs-flags-any structure destructible and lootable. It gives a new option in wars, conquer to have or raid it to get the treasure (conan style)! Actual evacuations would be nothing compared to a scenario where you loose (no more assets->contracts) all your assets if you don't evacuate it, fight till the end or loose all. For structures without hangar, add loot tables. Alliances would have in this way another possible income source and at same time add an isk sink.

- Make upgrades last longer than hub. If you take upgraded systems and you take the sov you still have the benefits (or some at least). Make space more desirable not only by moons, belt number or true sec, but for upgrades in it too.


- Personal income

Ok, let's face it. With this expansion, where alliances will be forced to make their people work (not only fight) for them to keep sov, inividual members will see their income cripled (Actual income - sov upkeep/members). Right now, for the mainstream of alliance members its almost better run lvl4 in empire (JC or alt) than rat (only real liquid isk provider), plex, mine (hauling, market dependency returns), so with new added cost it looks worse. Projected upgrades only add quantity, not quality, and what 0.0 needs to atrack people is quallity.

If you want to bring bears to 0.0, use candies to attrack them, not only rocks: you will be taxed to hell and killed by evil players for the same return of lvl4 misions inm hisec, doesn't seem very interesting. Add true-sec upgrades, add asteroid size upgrades, add bounty upgrades... Oh, this is hard codding... Well ccp, you are a software company, its your job.


- Upgrades

Well, seems that the general opinion of this upgrades is that are crap. Anyway, i think that general opinion about the intentions of Dominion is that are in the right way too, so take your time, rethink implementation and bring us a decenmt upgrade system with more possibilities, better returns and enjoyable for all.

My 2 cents, xcuse my poor english.


Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:13:00 - [2676]
 

Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 09/11/2009 23:15:58
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Itzena

To what purpose? If there's nothing worth fighting over any more, and Alliance income is nerfed...why risk capfleets to seize more worthless space that will only cost money?


Nothing worth fighting for?

I don't like you. I want to see you die and your empire burn.

I like you. Your e-hate is warm and delicious.

I suggest that since it's obvious CCP isn't going to post here anymore that this conversation needs to be moved to CAOD so all of these important anonymous internet spaceship moguls have to at least switch to their Empire holding corp characters.

Clurk Brodon
Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:13:00 - [2677]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

I get what you're saying, and I don't even completely disagree, but the problem is that we've seen this kind of thing from CCP before. They never go back and fix it half as quickly as they should, and we're left with a whole bunch of really cool, totally unusable content for years. Bombs came in in Rev 2, summer '07, and didn't see use until after Apocrypha because CCP pre-nerfed them and didn't give them a serious fix for two years. Black ops, Trinity, late 07, the ones CCP explicitly stated that they pre-nerfed intentionally, still not usable for very much above the level of comedy ops. And let's not forget such CCP success stories as combat boosters, epic arcs, COSMOS, or the current awful sovereignty mechanics that it took them five years to fix.

Let's not forget faction drones, or the whole T1 mineral market for that matter.

CCP expected people to fight in the Fictional Warfare for no actual reward - it failed.
They're now expecting carebears to get ganked in 0.0 for lower income than Hi-sec mission running, AND pay infrastructure upkeep + a rent to their landlord.

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:13:00 - [2678]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
I'm not speaking of wars that happened in the last century... they were'nt that big actually, but you'll figure it out.
Are you talking about the many wars scattered throughout history where religious / nationalist fervor was stoked to incite a war that was in fact for more mundane political and economic gain?

Static Kinetics
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:18:00 - [2679]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tesal
Remember the feeling when you took Delve? Did you really fight BoB for isk?

What? Did they fight? Shocked

can we expect to see u in 0sec in dominion or are you just another dumb**** carebear that will never go and sees this as a possible threat to ur lvl 4 isk and are speaking out against it

Mobius Q
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:22:00 - [2680]
 

Edited by: Mobius Q on 09/11/2009 23:26:17
Edited by: Mobius Q on 09/11/2009 23:24:22
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And yes, I'm not the casual-player like alot of you're pretending to be, but I've spoken with alot of corp/alliance-members about this, and noone of them would've a problem with contributing some 5-10 million ISK a day to the corp to keep up with the bills.
And why should they complain? All fleet-ships are 100% funded by the corp, and that even includes the needed Tech 2-ships like Interceptors, Dictors, HICs and Logistics. HACs are given out for some special OPs aswell.

I don't know what alot of corps/alliances are doing differently, that this doesn't work out for them, but I guess it's greed and egoism.

So yeah... we're happily looking forward to the expansion, as nothing really changes for us, but we'll have the option to invest some money to provide some more PvE-content for our members in 0.0.


You say your corp is 100% taxed, so where would those members get the extra 300mill a month? (pls stop saying 5-10 mill, the numbers you throw around are the equivalent of $15 US a month in plex)

OT, but: Do you also give out +4 implants? snakes? faction mods? ur communism idea is a lie.

Why would you need to provide more pve content? I mean do your members actually rat with 100% tax? srsly???????

pls stop posting, the only case you are making is that you are actually functionally ******ed.

E: you say now your tax is 10%, earlier you claimed 100% wtf?

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:23:00 - [2681]
 

Haha, I've just realised that Groon are going to have better space post-Dominion than quite a lot of the big alliances.

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:24:00 - [2682]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Terrible deadspace rats with awful loot/bounties.


No. Upgraded deadspace rats that generate income comparable to running level 4's, that respawn instantly and without limit.

Just keeping you honest, carry on.



Comparable to lvl 4's if you forget about LP, increased risk, logistics costs, increased market prices in 0.0, costs for the upgrade, upkeep costs on the system, etc.

Just keeping you honest.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:25:00 - [2683]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 09/11/2009 23:27:58
Originally by: Mobius Q
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And yes, I'm not the casual-player like alot of you're pretending to be, but I've spoken with alot of corp/alliance-members about this, and noone of them would've a problem with contributing some 5-10 million ISK a day to the corp to keep up with the bills.
And why should they complain? All fleet-ships are 100% funded by the corp, and that even includes the needed Tech 2-ships like Interceptors, Dictors, HICs and Logistics. HACs are given out for some special OPs aswell.

I don't know what alot of corps/alliances are doing differently, that this doesn't work out for them, but I guess it's greed and egoism.

So yeah... we're happily looking forward to the expansion, as nothing really changes for us, but we'll have the option to invest some money to provide some more PvE-content for our members in 0.0.


You say your corp is 100% taxed, so where would those members get the extra 300mill a month? (pls stop saying 5-10 mill, the numbers you throw around are the equivalent of $15 US a month in plex)

OT, but: Do you also give out +4 implants? snakes? faction mods? ur communism idea is a lie.

Why would you need to provide more pve content? I mean do your members actually rat with 100% tax? srsly???????

pls stop posting, the only case you are making is that you are actually functionally ******ed.

E: you say now your tax is 10%, earlier you claimed 100%


My corp is taxed at 10% and it allways was.

The 100% statement was being made as an example previously, or maybe you're mixing it up with the mentioned 100% reimbursement for fleet-ships.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:26:00 - [2684]
 

Originally by: Mobius Q
Edited by: Mobius Q on 09/11/2009 23:24:22
You say your corp is 100% taxed


What a failure...

Originally by: Vivian Azure

Our corp-tax is 10%.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:27:00 - [2685]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 09/11/2009 23:15:58
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Itzena

To what purpose? If there's nothing worth fighting over any more, and Alliance income is nerfed...why risk capfleets to seize more worthless space that will only cost money?


Nothing worth fighting for?

I don't like you. I want to see you die and your empire burn.

I like you. Your e-hate is warm and delicious.

I suggest that since it's obvious CCP isn't going to post here anymore that this conversation needs to be moved to CAOD so all of these important anonymous internet spaceship moguls have to at least switch to their Empire holding corp characters.


A Goon without a sense of humor is like *insert crappy analogy here*.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:28:00 - [2686]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Terrible deadspace rats with awful loot/bounties.


No. Upgraded deadspace rats that generate income comparable to running level 4's, that respawn instantly and without limit.

Just keeping you honest, carry on.



There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:31:00 - [2687]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.


If you find high sec so much better, just live there instead of 0.0

There is no point comparing those two since they are 2 completely different things nor there is a need to turn one into another.

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:32:00 - [2688]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Adam Ridgway
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously. The biggest wars on earth were'nt fought over ressources, but because of religious, political or social reasons.


Not only you are clueless about EVE, you also are compeltlly clueless about RL. GTFO.


I'm not speaking of wars that happened in the last century... they were'nt that big actually, but you'll figure it out.


Yeah WWI and WWII weren't big at all. I mean seriously millions of people may have died but in wars before that billions died right :P

Most wars are fought at least partially over money. And on a video game that is even more the case since there aren't political ideals and religious ideals that have built up over hundreds if not thousands of years. Sure if a video game was going for a few hundred years that might be the case, but it isn't. Of course if you translated those beliefs into the game you could have some giant fights over it, for instance if all the republicans and all the democrats joined different alliances next to eachother, probably you would have huge fights every four years at least. But I don't think that is going to happen.

In order to get people in video games to fight you have to offer them something that is potentially worth more than the time they spend fighting. Unless of course they don't lose anything if they lose the fight, which is what moon mining did to a degree, but we want people to lose something. So that leaves offering rewards greater than the possible losses.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:32:00 - [2689]
 

Originally by: Alexander Knott
Originally by: Vivian Azure
I'm not speaking of wars that happened in the last century... they were'nt that big actually, but you'll figure it out.
Are you talking about the many wars scattered throughout history where religious / nationalist fervor was stoked to incite a war that was in fact for more mundane political and economic gain?

Yes, this is the tack this thread needs to be put on. :arsed:

Mobius Q
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:33:00 - [2690]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
My corp is taxed at 10% and it allways was.

The 100% statement was being made as an example previously, or maybe you're mixing it up with the mentioned 100% reimbursement for fleet-ships.


earlier

Originally by: Vivian Azure

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.


excuse me for not realising that when you implied you had 100% tax you were flat out lying

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:34:00 - [2691]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Pointfive
There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.


If you find high sec so much better, just live there instead of 0.0

There is no point comparing those two since they are 2 completely different things nor there is a need to turn one into another.


Cool when the prices of ships and all items are no longer effected by empire i will gladly stop caring. But thats not the case.

Diashi
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:35:00 - [2692]
 

Edited by: Diashi on 09/11/2009 23:35:11
What a load of nonsense, 0.0 warfare will move to empire gateways, the rest will go unclaimed. No access for ze leet noobs wanting a share as they will not be able to control the empire gateways (and the path to their new home) from the major alliances. The achilles heel of the whole idea of Dominion. No, you didnt think of that did you?

Shame...

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:35:00 - [2693]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 09/11/2009 23:36:28
Originally by: Mobius Q
Originally by: Vivian Azure
My corp is taxed at 10% and it allways was.

The 100% statement was being made as an example previously, or maybe you're mixing it up with the mentioned 100% reimbursement for fleet-ships.


earlier

Originally by: Vivian Azure

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.


excuse me for not realising that when you implied you had 100% tax you were flat out lying


I said, there SHOULD be 100%, and those 100% only in 0.0... but yeah, keep trying Rolling Eyes

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:35:00 - [2694]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Terrible deadspace rats with awful loot/bounties.


No. Upgraded deadspace rats that generate income comparable to running level 4's, that respawn instantly and without limit.

Just keeping you honest, carry on.



There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.



You could always quit instead of stinking up the forum with your endless "i wanna make lvl 4 isk while station spinning"

I mean damn-
YES OR NO: CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?

PS take the goonbabies with you

Static Kinetics
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:36:00 - [2695]
 

Edited by: Static Kinetics on 09/11/2009 23:41:06
Edited by: Static Kinetics on 09/11/2009 23:39:59
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Pointfive
There is a limit and that limit is 10. That limit is a lot less than level 4's which is infinity. Also the vast majority of level 4s are run in empire. The low sec and nullsec level 4s are not attracting the hordes of people to come do those. Because slightly increased gain for infinitely increased risk does not work. Giving the same reward for even more risk is just insulting.


If you find high sec so much better, just live there instead of 0.0

There is no point comparing those two since they are 2 completely different things nor there is a need to turn one into another.


why are u such a ****ing ******, ccp said dominion would cause a mass exodus to 0.0, people here are saying that wont work cuz the upgrades are ****, and costly. your on here telling ppl to go to highsec if they dont like it? do you not see a conflict with your statement and with what ccp has said it is trying to accomplish?
do u think exodus part two, 0.0 players moving to highsec, is what ccp wants to see? because they have stated otherwise. why are you even posting here?

as a sidenote, vivian azure, you too are a ****ing ******, the world wars werent very big huh? the gulf war wasnt about resources huh? shut the **** up and quit posting, do you think throwing an emoticon after everything stupid you say makes it any less stupid?

and then theres the mutant, another person for the changes, another lvl 4 carebear that has never been to 0.0, stating lvl 4 missions (which are so abundant in 0.0) pay more than they do in highsec, you too, are an idiot.

* Warned for personal attacks - CCP Ildoge

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:38:00 - [2696]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/11/2009 23:42:53
Originally by: Batolemaeus
No, top tier anomalies being barely on par if not worse than lvl4 missions.

Only a small percentage of anomalies are top tier.


I'd like you to stick to the facts Ranger 1.


Actually, Soundwave said about 70 pages back that they were bringing in new anomalies, and that a max-upgraded system would have earnings potential on par with L4s. He's wrong on a bunch of other stuff, but not on this. At least, if CCP is more trustworthy on that issue than they were on "systems that can support 50-100 players at once".

Originally by: Clurk Brodon
Let's not forget faction drones, or the whole T1 mineral market for that matter.


Actually, I had forgotten about those. God, talk about wonderful design decisions...

Originally by: Future Mutant
You could always quit instead of stinking up the forum with your endless "i wanna make lvl 4 isk while station spinning"


Who wants to earn while spinning ships? Everyone's against that kind of "gameplay". The goal is for 0.0 to be better money than highsec, not for money to flow in without working for it.

Mobius Q
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:39:00 - [2697]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Mobius Q
Originally by: Vivian Azure
My corp is taxed at 10% and it allways was.

The 100% statement was being made as an example previously, or maybe you're mixing it up with the mentioned 100% reimbursement for fleet-ships.


earlier

Originally by: Vivian Azure

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.


excuse me for not realising that when you implied you had 100% tax you were flat out lying


I said, there SHOULD be 100%... but yeah, keep trying Rolling Eyes







Originally by: Vivian Azure
100% tax






Originally by: Vivian Azure
That's how it works for us




how can you say 100% tax is how it works for you with a 10% tax

how can you say communism works when you don't use it

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:43:00 - [2698]
 

Originally by: Mobius Q
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Mobius Q
Originally by: Vivian Azure
My corp is taxed at 10% and it allways was.

The 100% statement was being made as an example previously, or maybe you're mixing it up with the mentioned 100% reimbursement for fleet-ships.


earlier

Originally by: Vivian Azure

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.


excuse me for not realising that when you implied you had 100% tax you were flat out lying


I said, there SHOULD be 100%... but yeah, keep trying Rolling Eyes







Originally by: Vivian Azure
100% tax






Originally by: Vivian Azure
That's how it works for us




how can you say 100% tax is how it works for you with a 10% tax

how can you say communism works when you don't use it


Are you really incapable of reading and understandug what I wrote there?

I said, that in 0.0 there SHOULD be 100% tax, not that we actually have 100% tax.
The statement that it works for us is in regard to the assets needed for fleet-ops being paid by the alliance.

Maybe that makes it more clear for you.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:47:00 - [2699]
 

Originally by: Static Kinetics

why are u such a ****ing ******, ccp said dominion would cause a mass exodus to 0.0, people here are saying that wont work cuz the upgrades are ****, and costly. your on here telling ppl to go to highsec if they dont like it? do you not see a conflict with your statement and with what ccp has said it is trying to accomplish?
do u think exodus part two, 0.0 players moving to highsec, is what ccp wants to see? because they have stated otherwise. why are you even posting here?

as a sidenote, vivian azure, you too are a ****ing ******, the world wars werent very big huh? the gulf war wasnt about resources huh? shut the **** up and quit posting, do you think throwing an emoticon after everything stupid you say makes it any less stupid?

and then theres the mutant, another person for the changes, another lvl 4 carebear that has never been to 0.0, stating lvl 4 missions (which are so abundant in 0.0) pay more than they do in highsec, you too, are an idiot.


I absolutely don't care about what CCP says or their intentions are nor I do care about their ill obsession to populate 0.0 with bears.

This is what they are going to release, this is what wil happen. Adapt or whine.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 23:47:00 - [2700]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/11/2009 23:50:07
Originally by: Mobius Q
how can you say communism works when you don't use it


Oh, come on, saying that communism works without any reference to anything other than bad theory is an old and noble tradition among a certain class of idiots. How else do you explain the 1960s?

Originally by: Kepakh
This is what they are going to release, this is what wil happen. Adapt or whine.


Is that even a choice? Whine, obviously.


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