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Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Fallen Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:49:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
Moderated.Applebabe

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.

Stop thinking about yourself and being egoistic. Dominion is ment to make people work together for their systems and space, and not just have a few people fueling the POSs.

This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh.


It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree.

Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:53:00 - [242]
 

Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 07/11/2009 01:54:16
Originally by: Valeronx
It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree.

It will show that alliances only claim their stations and critical bridge nodes. The rest they won't claim but will continue using as before.

less unecessary sov pos, less bridge routes .. and .. er ... that's about it. Unless there is more to the infrastruture stuff, that is. Still waiting to hear the fine detail on that, but not optimistic.

Soryn Kael
Chaos From Order
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:54:00 - [243]
 

This really removes any incentive for a smaller alliance to move into 0.0.

What's the point? You don't make more isk, you have to pay exhorbitant amounts of isk and you're at risk of losing everything because a larger group is angry.


10 people doing a half hour a day.. great.. that's for ONE system. Don't let those 10 people be on at the same time, god no.. then it would get too crowded. Don't let them earn isk for themselves either, that messes up those numbers. Don't let hostiles come into the system and kill a ship either.


Basically this is a system that allows you to take a fairly worthless system and pay tons of money and turn it into a fairly worthless system, but only if you force a bunch of people to slave away in your fairly worthless system.

Lusulpher
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:54:00 - [244]
 

Something is wrong with these numbers, CCP...

A level 4 mission has near zero risk and brings a fully-fit BS into groups of 30+ NPC ships without warping around much. And 20mil an hour is easy in a .8 system, what is the scaling as you go toward -1.0?

Lowsec buff "Corruption" and Viceroyalty would also help get the fringe population of nullsec up. Why must all null players dump goods in hisec? Shouldn't Lowsec be the home of unscrupulous middlemen? "I run Bartertown." I'm talking tax/monetary reductions, on contracts, transactions, corp bills, Sov/upkeep relted items,everything in Lowsec. lowsec should be evryone's 2nd home. A new player should be able to make more money doing agents and pirating in a .3 than staying in a .8...that simple.

When you buff bounty and NPC ship spawns I hope you are considering increasing belt spawns to 4+ BS also...you know to the point where it's an actual teamwork thing...should be easy with 50 people in a system, and in fleet finder mode.


This is very troubling. Moon values are dropping as they should FINALLY, but if all personal income goes to alliance upkeep taxes, where is the wealth for the common man(praised be Marx) so that all these new null residents can roam around and have fun.

Alliance tax coming? To make this all more streamlined. And put priority on Treaties, this system needs it.

When are wormholes going to time out only when you use up their travel limit? What's the point of finding a shortcut to highsec and saving the bm if it's gone in 2 days? Bm spam/clusterfuuk is not good for EVE, losing a Logistics route is not good for nullsec. Make such rare W-holes harder to probe out and you have a mini-market of bm sales.

Titans/Caps going to need Sov/Tax upkeep eventually? Seeing as how you still have no limiting factor on stockpiling blobs of them?Confused

And you really can't create all these new item drops in anomalies and plexes to be farmed without creating an additional need/market for them at the same time. Planet Governance? or else the price on contracts will tank. And we will have fullyfactionfitsupercap lossmails.Rolling Eyes

I beleive all the devblog numbers to be litmus testers though, just getting in ideas to end the idea block.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:55:00 - [245]
 

Before you emo quit I'm going to do the unthinkable.

Best guesses are that Technetium is the new Dysprosium and will make about as much per moon.

Now you can wage a horrible brutal war for a few months while waiting for the T2 production chain to be finally fixed and for the system upgrades to be buffed sufficiently.

In the mean time I can has your space right?

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:55:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure


I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready.

I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue Wink

30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.

The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.

If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.


Ah, if only there would be more of you, but then with a bit more aptitude and possibly a bit of attitude to stand in either the light or the dark, then we could have our wonderful victim alliances of the past again, to gank and grief and serve as entertainment Very Happy

Now that would make things worthwhile.

Key is that you are staring yourself somewhat blind at the detail level from just a singular perspective. Reverse the perspective and the math for a moment, to that of an organisation living in low sec (as an example) and on course to engage themselves in 0.0 in competition with the vested organisations. An engagement which involves more variables than just isk, effort, time, manpower, willpower, assets, replacement capacity, shipping capacity and egg timers. Not to mention general mindset, and a little bit of exposure, since even the most mentally challenged noob fresh out of starter corp understands the concepts of servitude, slavery and isk/hour ratios Very Happy

It takes things right back to "is it worth it to repopulate 0.0". This is the focus of Dominion, at least according to statements and speeches at Fanfest.

Remember, small gang warfare did not die because of EVE War I or Titans, it died because the victim types left for empire over time, after which the trend got reinforced by a polarised 0.0 and the standard subscriber behaviour of taking everything into excess (resulting in the grind syndrome, which in spite of CCP's screwup of letting the conditions linger on for years we as players each and every time made the choice to go nuts with what was essentially a broken system).

Dominion does introduce enough variables to shake things up, and the Titan nerf opens the door again to either carpet bombing as a mass doctrine or the art of the blob, but that aside it has the potential to increase the pace of events for those already vested in 0.0.
But it does not provide any vacuum or even perception of room or competitive angles for those not already there, who are not interested in a career of servitude controlled through the art of schizofrenia.

We'll have more to shoot for a while, but we'll end up facing more blobs. At least capital losses will over time have more significance, which means we will push harder on numbers to mitigate the risk of not achieving objectives - we have all seen these trends as the de facto behaviour of space holding organisations for years on end. But I pitty those who want to make the step to have a go out there.

It's just not worth it in isk, effort, risk, gank or grief. But, maybe there is still a rabbit coming out of a hat somewhere, similar to having a err second look at moon resource distribution ratios Very Happy


cok cola
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:57:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: cok cola on 07/11/2009 01:57:30
ccp's exodus part 2

failed again too

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [248]
 

To put it mildly, those costs seem extremely high. Before you can even begin to start upgrading, the cost is 900m/per month for just ONE system (base+hub)? And the upgrades themselves will increase that further?

Do you seriously think that this will encourage more small alliances into nullsec?

This seriously needs to be adjusted. I like the concept you've put together, but it really needs to be a sliding scale. The first/best system an alliance controls should cost maybe a tenth this amount, with the amount scaling upwards for each additional system. If, for example, the price started at 1/5 the proposed amount (120m), with a 10% added per system per system, then the cost of the 18th system would match these numbers, with additional systems going even higher.

That way small alliances can control a small number of systems without going broke, yet at the same time fabulously wealthy alliances can't simply buy terrain as far as the eye can see.

SamuraiJack
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Navick


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures

Members - 146
Corporations - 3
Sovereignty - 0
Outposts - 0

Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-


Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3.

We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:58:00 - [250]
 

also note that although a large majority of you guys might be unemployed, basement-dwelling lowest-common-denominators in society, many of us have real lives to attend to and would rather not be forced to grind out 7m ISK each day to hold space

Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Fallen Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:03:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Valeronx on 07/11/2009 02:05:26
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 07/11/2009 01:54:16
Originally by: Valeronx
It'll be interesting to see the Influence Map in January or Feburary. By and large though, I agree.

It will show that alliances only claim their stations and critical bridge nodes. The rest they won't claim but will continue using as before.

less unecessary sov pos, less bridge routes .. and .. er ... that's about it. Unless there is more to the infrastruture stuff, that is. Still waiting to hear the fine detail on that, but not optimistic.


Yes Mynas. That's what I was pointing out. Alliances will lay claim to and use...what they can use. And your right again I think, they might use a bit but won't bother to lay official claim to large swaths of empty space. Will they designate that space for Renter or Meatshield Alliances ? Will they keep them empty and try and police them to keep others out ? Will they shed bitter tears and pack up back to Empire space beacuse they have to work to hold space instead of relying on passive income streams ?

That's why the next few months are going to be an interesting time for EVE.

.

Lonewolfnight
Gallente
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [252]
 

It has taken years to develop and build an environment and economy that can support larger player counts per system. I'm pretty sure CVA can claim significant success at being able to drive up the average 0.0 system population.

We've been discussing this over and and over inside our alliance. We've continued to say, wait till the fee's come out. Something has to be good in this. Today, total disappointment.

What brings people to 0.0? The community, the market, the ability to function safely!

Raters want less people in system. Mini-explor'ers want fewer people in their systems to compete with! So why increase the draw for these people?

Do you know who wants more people in a given system? Industrialists, the producers of products. They need people to supply raw materials and purchase their finished product. Take a look at CVA space and you'll see a thriving economy. An economy that is in serious danger of crashing. Why? because many industrial based people are pulling out! I've been dealing with hundreds of conversations from pilots all over the area! What is this patch doing? Driving people back to empire. Why pay for what you can get for little or nothing?! Is that what is wanted? Move back to empire?

So today, there will be less security. Less stability and more people wanting "solo". Great just great.

At one point, a CCP person said they liked what we had done to our area. Well guess what, you just stabbed it in the heart!

Please take these numbers, the sov system, go back to the drawing board. Implement an complete system that both address the goals as well as provides a way for the players to complete them. Don't set static costs and then rumor a "tax" next patch.

P.S. here's a thought. How about base your fee's off the true sec status? Balance the risk/reward at least a little bit. Since the worm hole/rat/mining sites are all just upgrades of that base value.

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Navick


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures

Members - 146
Corporations - 3
Sovereignty - 0
Outposts - 0

Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-


Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3.

We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations.



That's funny, I've never heard of you.

Mankil
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Hrin
Can you artificially upgrade some constellations on sisi so we can see these upgrades in action?


+1

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:04:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: Vivian Azure
A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours.

So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space.

---

I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy Laughing


So you are suggesting eve-online should instead of game become work.

Also you really need to get a clue. For starters if you think building a single titan is that easy why arent you building them? Do you even know how much resources/time/effort it takes to even start building one? Do you even know what it takes to live in 0.0 space and what risks there are? Cause if it was that simple every 2 char corp would have an alliance and a sov system with station.

Also in this game there are corporations that are made out of RL friends, or ppl that became friends over time. We play together cause this is not work this is game, but I understand that concept of friendship might be strange to you.


I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready.

I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue Wink

30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.

The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.

If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.

Yes yes, the cost isn't terrible in the grand scheme of things, but there's one bit you're missing.

Let's say you buy every upgrade in one system. How many people will that support?

It doesn't appear to be anywhere near 50-100.

Panzram
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:05:00 - [256]
 

also agreeing w/ bobby atlas

SamuraiJack
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:05:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Navick
That's funny, I've never heard of you.


Thats ok. I'll just post the ass pic again to remind ppl.

:P

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:06:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Navick
Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Navick


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures

Members - 146
Corporations - 3
Sovereignty - 0
Outposts - 0

Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-


Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3.

We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations.



That's funny, I've never heard of you.

That's 'cause you're new.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:07:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Navick
That's funny, I've never heard of you.


Thats ok. I'll just post the ass pic again to remind ppl.

:P


OH NO YOU WILL NOT

I only managed to get it out of my nightmares last year man Very Happy


Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:08:00 - [260]
 

Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on:

2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind...

50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps.

30 days = month give or take a day.

20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me.

If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note)

So there you go.


I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Evil or Very Mad Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns.

Thanks

--Isaac

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:10:00 - [261]
 

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm declaring your opinion invalid, it's nothing personal. The point I'm getting at is that a vast majority of the people posting about how great these changes are are players who do not live/play in 0.0, will not bear the cost of these changes, and in many regards will not even be affected by them at all. In short, "easy for you to say."

It's expected that this should be a rather polarized argument - those penalized by the changes against, those not penalized by the changes for. The difference is that the majority of the empire-dwellers chiming in on this subject have zero first hand knowledge of how 0.0 actually works, and are forming opinions based on hearsay. The 0.0-dwellers' unanimous opposal to these changes is based on actual firsthand knowledge of the game mechanics.

I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong.

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:14:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.


Last time I tried to rat for 30 minutes I wanted to kill myself. If I would have to do it every day for next year or so I would prolly cancel my subscription. Same goes for mining (thou I do have periods it feels good Razz). But, I do understand and accept there are ppl that enjoy that and its fun for that, so this game fulfilled its purpose for them (it was worth the subscription).

Originally by: Vivian Azure
The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.


Yes, but those grunts also provide protection for my freighter ops, help me with hauls from time to time, call me when there are hauler spawns, give me faction BPCs and sometimes mods etc. I have spent most of my eve life as a director/CEO in corporations, and I'm around a long time (since beta). Mainly been doing boring things as production, logistics, POSs etc. I do know what you are saying, but also those ppl you say dont contribute is not true. They do, cause if they wherent there you wouldnt have anyone to protect you, escort you... or to put it in better words, you would be out of the job. Everyone has its place in a ecosystem of an eve corporation, and they dont manage to find it they leave on their own usually.

Originally by: Vivian Azure
If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.


You overestimate yourself and underestimate others. No one is irreplaceable, there will always be ppl that will step up and take your place, most of the times ppl you least expect.
My advice to you is to start trusting ppl a bit, and sometimes ask for help or accept help, you might get surprised. You too might get to enjoy the occasional pew pew Very Happy

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:15:00 - [263]
 

Edited by: Tangonis Galt on 07/11/2009 02:17:08
Not worth the effort. Very Happy

.

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:17:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on:

2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind...

50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps.

30 days = month give or take a day.

20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me.

If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note)

So there you go.


I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Evil or Very Mad Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns.

Thanks

--Isaac


You forget the fact that a single solar system will not sustain 50 active pilots, the current incarnation of the upgrades will support maybe 25 very active players. Even then, a single solar system, devoting all your time to farming isk to maintain it - something just does not seem right about that in context of the larger plan that dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access easier for smaller entities - not time and cost prohibitive. Forget the fact if this small theoretical alliance should have to ever defend the system, they will run out of isk so fast that they will have no choice but to leave 0.0.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:19:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on:

The numbers that you're missing:

How many people can 1 fully upgraded system support?

Paying for the upgrades is a hassle, but not devastating. But if you go from supporting 3 people per system to supporting 10 people per system, they aren't worth it.

The only way this system works is if these anomalies are vastly better than 'normal' ones.

Sellmewarez
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:19:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Since we love throwing around numbers...here is some theory numbers for you guys to chew on:

2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind...

50 people. This is about the size of a small alliance that could potentially join 0.0. (I say potentially, however, it is highly unlikely) It would probably consist of 3-4 corps.

30 days = month give or take a day.

20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me.

If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note)

So there you go.


I will agree with some though, I would like to see 0.0 security status be upgradable which so far, it doesn't look that way. Evil or Very Mad Mildly lame CCP I sincerely hope you left that out of the blog by accident. PLEASE answer our concerns.

Thanks

--Isaac


You remind me of one those people who thinks they understand eve because they have played with EFT a lot.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:20:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 02:23:16
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 02:21:50
@Above, your right, I'm just throwing out numbers and I think CCP left something out of this dev blog so I'm going to keep waiting. Its not saying the whole picture so...yeah, I'll leave you guys to it. But the problem is...where is the line in the sand that says this is too much isk/hour. That is what CCP is trying to figure out I believe.

And lol Sell. I hate EFT. I should have stated these are theoretical numbers, but I do understand where ppl are coming from so I get it now.

@Lynn, you are correct, I am the same way so its why I'm going to be quiet now. I should have seen it before.

--Isaac


Lynn de'Marco
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:22:00 - [268]
 

isaac, your posts are well thought and articulated however:

you cannot simply run calculations of how much a corp can generate from their members.

members will not log on every day
members will not want to grind isk every day they do log on
members will have have other roles to carry out which occupy thier time
not all members will want to make isk through taxible income

perhaps in smaller corps where you have about 10 active RL players it would be feasable to get a 7mil per day contribution from everyone but for a lot of 0.0 corps this is not feasable and not fair on all the members either.

you can do your sums "on paper" as much as you want but in practise this is not how it works out and i'm sure any director/ceo of a 0.0 corp will back me up.

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:24:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker

2 Billion isk for a system per month is what generally has been thrown around. Keeping that in mind...
...

20% tax rate on all 50 members. This is about average for corps who tax members. I've seen 10, I've seen 30, so don't shoot me.
..
If each member is earning around 10mil a day pure ratting or mining, based off corp taxes, you get 3 billion isk a month pure corp tax. (taxing miners = outposts btw or some other creative way) I don't know about you guys, but right now I'm pretty sure ppl are doing this already. (I will agree, ppl don't rat every day, some do it in chunks so its still of note)



Let's assume for a moment you have the ability to perfectly monetize the diffuse income through corp taxes. You are making the wrong comparison. For it to be "worth it" the marginal increase in isk granted by bonus spawns alone needs to be greater the than the maintenance cost. At your 20% tax rate how many hours of special anomaly time is needed (this has to include scanning time) to pay for sov?

It seems to me you would be better off just spreading your 50 man alliance over a couple more systems, not claiming sov, and funding a few carriers every month with those taxes off of regular belt rats.

Cpt Underpants
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:26:00 - [270]
 

I'm sitting here in disbelief.

One, that CCP would put out such ridiculous cost when Dominion was supposed to open up 0.0 to more people, not make it prohibitively expensive even for the larger alliances.

Two, that I'm agreeing with pretty much everything AAA, Atlas etc are saying about this.

Corp taxes wont get the isk needed as so much of the 0.0 income is not derived from sources which can be taxed. eg: mining (compress and refine in empire or at a POS), faction loot from plexes, moon minerals from personal poses, reactions from personal poses.

This shows that it will probably end up that the taxes will have to change to be a flat per-member fee collected by corps, which are then passed to alliance to pay for the sov holding.

The other part, which at least one other player has mentioned is the economics of it. This ISK sink will reduce the amount of currency in the game, which makes the remaining ISK more valuable, as a result, the fixed cost of maintaining sov will actually be a bigger chunk of value.


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