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Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:40:00 - [2581]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth

I understand perfectly what I am replying to.

You said "You want L4 Missions running profits + moon income. You want too much"



Originally by: Kepakh
Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...



All the ISK pouring from moon mining gets spread in the alliance - it is funding the alliance infrastructure and providing alliance/corp level benefits as well as funding military efforts.
But you still don't include it into your personal wallet. If there were no moons, you would need to run quite more of L4 to run the things you are enjoying due moon mining now. You are profiting from moon mining everytime you dock in their station, everytime you see GoonSwarm dot on sovereignty map.

Oh god, it is so tiring talking to Goon :(




Moon money = infrastructure support. Moon money makes 0.0 something thats not a god awful place. Even with all that moon moey, nullsec is still not as useful as empire. So after spending all that money to make the space usable, now you a little left over. With that you can maybe make pvp loses sometimes less. The individual barely sees that. You still lose money dying, you still lose ships. In empire you can have your head full of all the implants you want training faster. In nullsec you cannot. In empire you can go pve and make money whenever you want. In nullsec you cannot.

So after the moon goo i spent making my space usable, i might get to be reimbursed half the money i lost on a major fight. Saying this makes up for the difference in risk and reward for level 4s is stupid.

I ask you again, how do you make your money and how much do you make.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:40:00 - [2582]
 

Right now I am feeling a sense of camaraderie between myself Atlas members. CCP should feel ashamed.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:41:00 - [2583]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.


Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.


Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.

If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.


Because Goons like helping the "little guys" more than anyone! This is the stupidest thing I have read yet. Goons are not saying this stuff out of the goodness of your heart; your cold, black, merciless heart. Your big problem right now is that anyone who would potentially rent from you would have to be a total idiot, and they will most likely end up getting scammed. Yah, carebears are going to bring their Hulks in to mine in your space! So you are stuck having to raise revenues from your existing players base and don't have any other options. Yah, I can see why you are crying in this thread more than anyone. Moonswarm is over, either adapt or you will be a victim of evolution.

Laughing

*edit
I also get whats going on in Atlas. They have way too much space right now and are scrambling to fill it with anyone. The last few renters they had fail cascaded one after the other (with some Goon help I might add). They are facing a massive collapse in Sov after the patch and RA is going to be out to cut them. I get why they are complaining. They face a long, economically devastating war. They are vastly overextended.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:43:00 - [2584]
 

Originally by: Tesal


Because Goons like helping the "little guys" more than anyone! This is the stupidest thing I have read yet. Goons are not saying this stuff out of the goodness of your heart; your cold, black, merciless heart. Your big problem right now is that anyone who would potentially rent from you would have to be a total idiot, and they will most likely end up getting scammed. Yah, carebears are going to bring their Hulks in to mine in your space! So you are stuck having to raise revenues from your existing players base and don't have any other options. Yah, I can see why you are crying in this thread more than anyone. Moonswarm is over, either adapt or you will be a victim of evolution.

Laughing


Thank you for your unbiased and totally apolitical opinions on the dev blog.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:46:00 - [2585]
 

Edited by: Alekanderu on 09/11/2009 19:47:17
Originally by: Treji
Actually, you are missing the point of the expansion- CCP are moving 0.0 warfare AWAY from moon aquisition. Moons were essentially a passive isk income after you established good cyno jamming etc and the infrastructure to defend them.


the point of the expansion is to get more people into 0.0, not to nerf moon mining

Quote:
If members could be arsed, there are lots of ways to make isk in 0.0 sec space. However, a lot of players think 0.0 space is just for PvP purposes; sure, PvP conflict with competing alliances etc needed, but utilising the space to build an empire is better. You can't expect to sit about PvPing and just pop off for a quick hour of isk making to cover expenses once a month. Building empires takes time and effort, planning, co-operation and peserverance. I'm sure there are many corps itching to take your spots if you decide that it's to much effort and go mission-running....


why would you ever go to that effort when you can just make good isk for significantly less effort and risk doing missions in highsec/npc space while keeping sov in the valuable moon systems? what would be the point? where is the reward? and, given that you're telling 0.0 players how to build empires, what have you accomplished yourself in that regard?

Quote:
The majority of the *****ing is from a couple allainces that probably had grandiose schemes of taking over all regions of 0.0 etc. The reality of actually utilising that space and making it pay its way obviously is too much of a reality check, since many in such allainces haven't the inclination to do much apart from PvP for 'free' (on account of moon incomes). They throw the toys and wail loudly to get noticed, but they may get smart and find a region to consolidate in and try new things...


"a couple alliances" meaning "everyone who currently lives in 0.0"

Quote:
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


you've never even been in 0.0 have you

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:47:00 - [2586]
 

Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes

Encalderante
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:47:00 - [2587]
 

Bah, at worst, big alliances crumble. Yay!

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:49:00 - [2588]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.


Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.


Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.

If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.


Because Goons like helping the "little guys" more than anyone! This is the stupidest thing I have read yet. Goons are not saying this stuff out of the goodness of your heart; your cold, black, merciless heart. Your big problem right now is that anyone who would potentially rent from you would have to be a total idiot, and they will most likely end up getting scammed. Yah, carebears are going to bring their Hulks in to mine in your space! So you are stuck having to raise revenues from your existing players base and don't have any other options. Yah, I can see why you are crying in this thread more than anyone. Moonswarm is over, either adapt or you will be a victim of evolution.

Laughing


You must be ignoring a lot to not realize that smaller alliances will be hurt far more than the larger richer ones.

Locii
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:51:00 - [2589]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
Originally by: Locii
Originally by: Mikal Drey
@Verone

flag+hub purely to anchor a pos :/ thats an epic joke.




you are shi**ing me on this arnt you?

i need to take a freighter into a system to get sov just so i can anchour a pos to live in what is effectivly a empty useless system?


Drum roll . .. tada

i **** you not. you cannot anchor a cynojammer, cyno beacon, jump bridge or build a supercap WITHOUT a flag+hub+sov for a set period.

setup a pos yes, setup moon goo yes. do anything logistical - no.

and thats pretty much what 90% of the complaints are about. its a MASSIVE bill for effectivly just setting up a jump bridge :/

@V

your funny, short, and northern. remind me i owe you a johnny walker Wink




well screw sov. as part of a small alliance that wants 0.0 why would we bother getting sov. all it seams to ammount to is a big target on the map with no real gain, well apart from the massive bill so i can run anom's after 14 days of loads of hard work, risk and paying out isk.

yay for Dominion

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:54:00 - [2590]
 

Originally by: Verone
It's going to take a while, and the new system will adapt as time goes on, just like people will adapt to use it as it evolves.


Yes, I'm sure that eventually CCP will figure out the correct balance between the costs and the rewards, but what happens in the meantime? We're seeing a system imposed where 0.0 alliances pour their ISK down the toilet on sov taxes while CCP imposes worthless pre-nerfed "upgrades" which we have to pay for and grind up just to keep running, conspicuously avoids introducing any upgrades to belt ratting (the most valuable method of money making in conquerable 0.0 and the method used by most of its occupants), and says the real benefits are coming Real Soon Now Guys We Promise.

This is supposed to be the patch which opens up whole swathes of 0.0 for the empire hordes wanting to make their fame and fortunes, but CCP wants them to pay through the nose for the privilege from day one while they wait .... 3 months? 6 months? A year? Two years? .... for the actual benefits to arrive. This is not like a new shiptype or module where if its pre-nerfed to the stone age people will just use something different until CCP get around to fixing it. This is the basis of 0.0. and if its pre-nerfed then people 'using something different' means conquerable 0.0 becoming a stagnant wasteland because everyone is running L4s in highsec or Stain/Curse/Venal instead.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:55:00 - [2591]
 

Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes


No, you should die, and I should laugh.

Sov map says it all. Look it over. compare it with population and how much the systems are used. Its easy to see who can, and who cannot adjust easily.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:56:00 - [2592]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes


No, you should die, and I should laugh.

Sov map says it all. Look it over. compare it with population and how much the systems are used. Its easy to see who can, and who cannot adjust easily.


You seem to be under the delusion that corps will be trying to move to nullsec space and will have a chance against any large alliance.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:59:00 - [2593]
 

Maybe they accidentally hit the zero one too many times.

This ocean of tears thread, best thread.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:59:00 - [2594]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Edited by: Gnulpie on 09/11/2009 18:31:42
Originally by: Verone
CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding.


The principles behind the changes are indeed outstanding. Outstanding idiotic.

Instead of a better sandbox where you can really develop your space on your own and free from limits we will have a totally artificial system that requires people to grind to 'unlock' the next 'level of upgrades'.

Originally by: Verone
And all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.

Who whined about that?

Only the losers whinened because they didn't take the effort to do so. Goons didn't whine about taking (undefended) Delve. Atlas didn't whine about taking (undefended) Omist. Atlas didn't whine about kicking RA out. Ev0ke isn't whining about Cloud Ring. IT isn't whining. Please show me those whines from the pvp guys. With enough firepower a pos will pop anyway pretty fast. Besides that, if hardened towers would be the problem, maybe change the hardeners then? lol

The guys who are doing the pvp didn't whine. Only some guys who cannot be arsed to get their ass up and do some stuff, they did whine.

But guess what. It won't become easier for them! Quite the contrary. Because now they do not only need to fight all their enemies, they additionally need to pay for all the space they already have.

Originally by: Verone
0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out.

Oh yeah sure, that's why even 20 days before launch the major parts of the overhaul aren't finalized. That is indeed very sound.

And well thought out? Yes, if you want a fixed theme park, then it is well thought out. Because nothing else is what CCP is implementing. They are throwing away the sandbox.

And besides that, if things are so well thought out, then why is recieving CVA the finger then? Those guys are the role model for successful 0.0 management and the base idea for CCP for this expansion. Only to bad that they will be wiped from existance. Yeah, very sound indeed.

It looks to me that CCP lost their direction and vision on a massive scale. TIME TO WAKE UP!


POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!

The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes and and and

But POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!


You're so fundamentally wrong that I'm not going to even try to bother dissecting that mess you just posted.


Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:01:00 - [2595]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Verone
It's going to take a while, and the new system will adapt as time goes on, just like people will adapt to use it as it evolves.


Yes, I'm sure that eventually CCP will figure out the correct balance between the costs and the rewards, but what happens in the meantime? We're seeing a system imposed where 0.0 alliances pour their ISK down the toilet on sov taxes while CCP imposes worthless pre-nerfed "upgrades" which we have to pay for and grind up just to keep running, conspicuously avoids introducing any upgrades to belt ratting (the most valuable method of money making in conquerable 0.0 and the method used by most of its occupants), and says the real benefits are coming Real Soon Now Guys We Promise.

This is supposed to be the patch which opens up whole swathes of 0.0 for the empire hordes wanting to make their fame and fortunes, but CCP wants them to pay through the nose for the privilege from day one while they wait .... 3 months? 6 months? A year? Two years? .... for the actual benefits to arrive. This is not like a new shiptype or module where if its pre-nerfed to the stone age people will just use something different until CCP get around to fixing it. This is the basis of 0.0. and if its pre-nerfed then people 'using something different' means conquerable 0.0 becoming a stagnant wasteland because everyone is running L4s in highsec or Stain/Curse/Venal instead.


This post right here is on the money. If CCP wants people to move to 0.0, if CCP wants current 0.0 alliances to "consolidate" and not "abandon" conquerable 0.0 space they will read this post right here and realize they cannot release these changes pre-nerfed.

Sawyer LaFleur
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:04:00 - [2596]
 

Edited by: Sawyer LaFleur on 09/11/2009 22:33:59
Originally by: CCP Soundwave



edit too much blah blah blah and after reading more than the other 50 pages of the thread, no use repeating a lot of it.

I still don't see any reason created by the changes that make the existing controlling corps to want new corps to enter their area of control.

Sure, the changes make it more costly to actually flag space, but as others have said, controlling the station systems and good choke holds jumpbridge locations in an area will still be worth it.

I don't really see how the changes make the space enough more profitable to get more renters or anything, of for those new entrants behind the choke point to be able to pay or offer enough to make it worth the potential betrayal risk of having another corp operating within the greater area of control.

It looks like they've got their idea on some ideas to make it somewhat more profitable to improve space..and might have their eye in the right direction. I think some interesting things could be done with the wormhole spaces with different sort of time frames, more gates to other 0.0 areas, and maybe some ability to lock the gates or to somehow better control their decay while still using the gates defacto control over how big a size of fleet can go through it. Something in addition to the current types of wormholes...not replacing the current ones.

Oops reverting back to blah blah blah..


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:04:00 - [2597]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes


No, you should die, and I should laugh.

Sov map says it all. Look it over. compare it with population and how much the systems are used. Its easy to see who can, and who cannot adjust easily.

I am in an alliance which uses all their systems. How does that benefit us? With dominion sov costs will skyrocket in adition to losing alot of our protection against capital hotdrops.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:12:00 - [2598]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

I'll say this bluntly, though I'm sure you've already inferred my position on this from my previous posts.

- Reward should be, at least broadly, proportional to risk, both in general and in the context of any given activity type available across risk categories.
- 0.0 is riskier than highsec, by several orders of magnitude.
- Thus, 0.0 should pay better than highsec in every meaningful way. Solo content, group content, corp-level income, the works.

I don't care about the mechanism. If you want to do it by upping rat bounties, rat quality, rat quantity, rat droppings, officer spawn rates, or just by having magic isk fairies floating around on nullsec gates, that's cool with me. As long as it's fun, profitable, and scalable, I'm cool with anything. But it's absurd to say that moons justify 0.0 being crap for players - "hold the moons, mission in highsec" is awful gameplay and moronic design.

And no, I don't want L4 mechanics. They're really kind of boring, which is why I've basically stopped doing them. I want L4 profit and then some. The mechanics can be whatever you like, it's the money that's the problem.


Hm...

'I don't want you to make more ISK in 0.0, I want you to have all T2 ships for free.'

Do you understand the difference?


Risk vs reward is a myth. When there is a risk somewhere, the best way to lower the risk is to team up with other people. In the end, you are not rewarded for higher risk but co-operation. This is what needs to be supported.

You proposed this mechanics:
High risk -> better reward to justify high risk

Proper motivation:
High risk -> Better co-operation -> Better reward.


High sec is solo content with no teaming up required.
In 0.0 on the other hand, co-operation is mandatory and you get rewarded for that - your own stations, safer claimed space, infratruture, cap production etc.

High sec and 0.0 works on completely different principles.

Jackman Herzog
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:13:00 - [2599]
 

Right now, moon goo pays for our ships and mods after all the infrastructure costs. We fly pretty good ships, can make some titans, have supercap fleets, and make system ownership worth something.

After this change, we'll be doing recon in t1 frigs while blobbing in Abbadons and Rhoks. Because that's what we'll be able to afford unless we move to Stain or run to highsec for missions one week out of the month.

At least for the smaller alliances. Goons and Atlas will shrink on the map, but they'll still own the same space by default with roving gangs and cloaked carriers and such. The big guys could get even bigger since they'll just curbstomp the rest of us who can't afford to hold more than a single constellation, if that. Logistics will be harder, isk making will be harder, and risk will exponentially increase for the little guys.

And all for lvl 4 income after 3 months of barely holding on to the little space we'll be forced into after Dominion.

Good job, CCP. Thanks for making the strong stronger and weak weaker.

Up the rewards to 3x's lvl 4 income at least, or watch 0.0 collapse into a worthless waste for everyone but the superrich. And even they'll have nothing to do once everyone else is forced out.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:13:00 - [2600]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 09/11/2009 20:15:19
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes


No, you should die, and I should laugh.

Sov map says it all. Look it over. compare it with population and how much the systems are used. Its easy to see who can, and who cannot adjust easily.


You seem to be under the delusion that corps will be trying to move to nullsec space and will have a chance against any large alliance.


That depends on what you mean by "a chance". I think most people believe that 0.0 is not the place for helpless carebears to thrive and survive. What the hell, you think people are going to claim sov with a fleet of Hulks or something?

Also, I will claim Sov just to mess with you. Why you think I bought this alliance. Free ratting and jump bridge, AND all the Goons you can kill.

*edit
You are lucky I am lazy or you would be so dead.

Sawyer LaFleur
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:18:00 - [2601]
 

Edited by: Sawyer LaFleur on 09/11/2009 22:36:43
deleted after rethinking a bit.

Idea seemed funnier at the time I typed it and not my style.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:25:00 - [2602]
 

Originally by: Pointfive

How do you make your money and how much do you make? Its nice to want group content to be there and to award greater rewards, but its not there and this patch does nothing for that. Basing your whole argument over something they might do in the future maybe is stupid. Increase personal gain now, increase group gain even more in the future. You dont have to **** up this thread about how no one should be able to make money by themselves because you have some fantasy of awesome group content that wont be here any time soon.

I see no urge to raise personal 0.0 income.
Originally by: Pointfive

Moon money = infrastructure support. Moon money makes 0.0 something thats not a god awful place. Even with all that moon moey, nullsec is still not as useful as empire. So after spending all that money to make the space usable, now you a little left over. With that you can maybe make pvp loses sometimes less. The individual barely sees that. You still lose money dying, you still lose ships. In empire you can have your head full of all the implants you want training faster. In nullsec you cannot. In empire you can go pve and make money whenever you want. In nullsec you cannot.

So after the moon goo i spent making my space usable, i might get to be reimbursed half the money i lost on a major fight. Saying this makes up for the difference in risk and reward for level 4s is stupid.

I ask you again, how do you make your money and how much do you make.


If 0.0 is so awfull place for you to live in, don't. Can't give you better advice.

I do pretty much everything that I feel like, enjoy and interests me. Slowly turning towards industry now. However, it is none of your business nor I am going to share it with you.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:28:00 - [2603]
 

Originally by: Locii
well screw sov. as part of a small alliance that wants 0.0 why would we bother getting sov. all it seams to ammount to is a big target on the map with no real gain, well apart from the massive bill so i can run anom's after 14 days of loads of hard work, risk and paying out isk.

yay for Dominion

bingo

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:30:00 - [2604]
 

i stand by the fact that 0.0 is still a miners dream, and for whoever the f*ck thinks that highsec is safe is a douche thats been living in nullsec for too long, or your just so blind to realize theirs hundreds/thousands of people on the other side of all the god da*n suicide ganking, i know a few corps planning a move to nullsec for the shear fact that it can't be much worse than highsec mining lately for all the gank teams.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:31:00 - [2605]
 

Originally by: Sawyer LaFleur
Originally by: Home brew
What all of 0.0 needs to do now and untill this patch goes live is to camp the f**k out of every highsec solar system that has a Lvl 4 Missions. Make the Lvl 4 missions more expensive to those that run them.


This really would be truly emergent game play, in the Sandbox.

The big bosses could call a "meeting of the 5 families" of the big 0.0 corporations.

They could agree, that until lvl 4 missions paid Significantly less than 0.0 life, that, for the true desire for milatary dominance, they'd need to cripple the relative financial might of high sec care bears. (this isn't griefing, it has a sound role play motivation).

Different sectors would be assigned to differnt0.0 corps . War decs, and ninja salvaging could be focussed on key weekend periods, even if only for a few hours at a time at first to make a show of strenth. Deny, or crimp 2 hours of prime time Saturday mission profits with concerted efforts for weeks on end and there might be a call on all sides to look for some diplomatic solutions.

If nothing else, it would really lead to interesting and dynamic QQ threads, and send interesting waves throughout the game.

Not griefing, but a show of pvp might and collective political intrigue which the game is rather unique in having.


Despite the newfound common ground we've all found in this thread I don't think there's the mutual trust between all the 0.0 entities to do this without the inevitable backstab messing things up (I'm pretty sure our enemies wouldn't trust us for a start) but I agree it would be completely hilarious.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:31:00 - [2606]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 09/11/2009 20:32:13
Originally by: Alekanderu


the point of the expansion is to get more people into 0.0, not to nerf moon mining




The point of this expansion is to need more people actively do something in 0.0 to claim the space.

Remember? They wanna get rid of AFK-empires. And those were feeded with moon-goo.

Treji
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:34:00 - [2607]
 

Quote:
You still lose money dying, you still lose ships. In empire you can have your head full of all the implants you want training faster. In nullsec you cannot. In empire you can go pve and make money whenever you want. In nullsec you cannot.


You can't make isk in nullspace Pve? I always thought it quite the goldmine, especially running through the nice littl' WH into Empire with the loot to sell. You may need to get out and about a little more instead of camping in that station awaiting the enemy ships...

Alternatively, you could move to Empire, which Goons etc are banging on about being so lucrative (which accounts for average wallet being around 500 mil with 80% players in Empire huh?). If you say something enough times, you might get idiots to believe it...

I especially like the 'All alliances are against it' quotes.Make me **** myself really, since there are members of large allainces here saying the new expansion is very good. Adapt, or move out...your dominion has ended.


Normin Bates
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:35:00 - [2608]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:47:10
Originally by: Treji
I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


So you're 0.0 players should trade flying good ships for the e-honour of having a dot on the map? Rolling Eyes


No, you should die, and I should laugh.

Sov map says it all. Look it over. compare it with population and how much the systems are used. Its easy to see who can, and who cannot adjust easily.


You seem to be under the delusion that corps will be trying to move to nullsec space and will have a chance against any large alliance.

That's the problem with large Alliances right now. You claim huge areas of space that never get used or are empty just for the sake of claiming it. If a smaller group tries to move in you squash them just because you can...while ignoring any diplomatic efforts.
If they're smaller what threat are they? NO threat at all, yet instead of working with them and having a relationship other than renters you immediately go in and kill them with 100 man cap fleets. Laughing

Maybe you're upset that having renters won't be so viable anymore?

With Dominion you'll prob operate the same way: Squash anyone that comes near yet leave the space unclaimed. So much for small gang PvP huh?

Face it. You're afraid of change. You're afraid to adapt. You want to control huge areas of unused space just because you can.

Boil it down and you've asked for Dominion exactly as it is in the Dev blog...you're just to daft with tunnel vision to realize it.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:37:00 - [2609]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

I'll say this bluntly, though I'm sure you've already inferred my position on this from my previous posts.

- Reward should be, at least broadly, proportional to risk, both in general and in the context of any given activity type available across risk categories.
- 0.0 is riskier than highsec, by several orders of magnitude.
- Thus, 0.0 should pay better than highsec in every meaningful way. Solo content, group content, corp-level income, the works.

I don't care about the mechanism. If you want to do it by upping rat bounties, rat quality, rat quantity, rat droppings, officer spawn rates, or just by having magic isk fairies floating around on nullsec gates, that's cool with me. As long as it's fun, profitable, and scalable, I'm cool with anything. But it's absurd to say that moons justify 0.0 being crap for players - "hold the moons, mission in highsec" is awful gameplay and moronic design.

And no, I don't want L4 mechanics. They're really kind of boring, which is why I've basically stopped doing them. I want L4 profit and then some. The mechanics can be whatever you like, it's the money that's the problem.


Hm...

'I don't want you to make more ISK in 0.0, I want you to have all T2 ships for free.'

Do you understand the difference?


Risk vs reward is a myth. When there is a risk somewhere, the best way to lower the risk is to team up with other people. In the end, you are not rewarded for higher risk but co-operation. This is what needs to be supported.

You proposed this mechanics:
High risk -> better reward to justify high risk

Proper motivation:
High risk -> Better co-operation -> Better reward.


High sec is solo content with no teaming up required.
In 0.0 on the other hand, co-operation is mandatory and you get rewarded for that - your own stations, safer claimed space, infratruture, cap production etc.

High sec and 0.0 works on completely different principles.



so the rewards for all that should be a slightly worse empire with no security? Great. Explain to me the rewards that are there post dominion. Tell me what i should be motivated for. Not jsut you general garbage you keep spewing, give me a real example

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 20:37:00 - [2610]
 

Originally by: Tesal
I think most people believe that 0.0 is not the place for helpless carebears to thrive and survive. What the hell, you think people are going to claim sov with a fleet of Hulks or something?


Theres the frigging problem that CCP is trying to solve with this patch and why so many PVP a$$hats are ****ed, 0.0 IS FOR CAREBEARS, or atleast its for carebears under the defence of their alliances pvp defence fleets as it should be alliances need to have a logistical and a pvp wing.


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