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JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:02:00 - [2551]
 

Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.


Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:03:00 - [2552]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Honest Smedley

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.


And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.

Not so much, no. Those jump bridges networks and throw away cap fleets aren't materializing out of nowhere... and your alliance isn't funding them off the backs of people grinding out missions in Irjunen. If you aren't personally benefitting from the silly money your alliance is rolling in as much as you think you should, consider finding a new alliance.

Did you think the titan conga line came out of an Irjunen-based LP store?


moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept

Elassus Herron
Caldari
Construction Cabal
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:05:00 - [2553]
 

Originally by: Kalisti
If EVE wants alliances to maintain infrastructure in nullsec, let's take that sandbox all the way and fix nullsec once and for all.
...stuff...



Also, holy crap, this. I could see all sorts of ways this could be awesome.

Consider: system scanners (on your upgraded sov tower) are now capable of scanning new solar systems beyond the current map. You send a scout ship - which just warps towards it, and maybe takes a week or two to get there - which lights a cyno on arrival. You drop a jump freighter in, plant the jumpgate, and online it.

Boom, you have a new system. Name it whatever! Start planting POSs!
Start planting a beacon for civilian transports to come colonize the planets (which you then tax).
Start bringing in the Dust514 mercenaries to guard said planets.
Start mining the ice fields, asteroids, and gas clouds to fuel the jumpgate you just built.
Start anchoring gate guns to guard against the reds that now see this new system on the map, owned by you.

Start exploring the system for the untouched resources that are now all yours.

Such a system would make EVE truly dynamic. And I agree with Kalisti: there should be more ways to gain ISK from a system besides grinding stupid belt rats, so I have more time to pvp, and there are more ways to do it than besieging POSs all day.

But Kalisti said it better. This would make 0.0 a lot more fun, and I really hope that's where we end up.

EH

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:06:00 - [2554]
 

Originally by: Alekanderu
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Honest Smedley

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.


And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.

Not so much, no. Those jump bridges networks and throw away cap fleets aren't materializing out of nowhere... and your alliance isn't funding them off the backs of people grinding out missions in Irjunen. If you aren't personally benefitting from the silly money your alliance is rolling in as much as you think you should, consider finding a new alliance.

Did you think the titan conga line came out of an Irjunen-based LP store?


moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept


It's because they have absolutely no grasp on the amount of ISK it takes to run a successful alliance. They think there is an R64 in every system and we are raking in trillions of ISK a day while our space costs nothing to uphold.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:07:00 - [2555]
 

Originally by: Alekanderu

moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept


Because they're mouth-breathing, semi-literate, uninformed and clueless, and can't resist entering into debate with the classic unbiased apolitical no-hidden-agenda-honest "lol goonie tears" tactic.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:09:00 - [2556]
 

Moon mining profits should be going down next patch. Infrastructure costs will be going up. The moon money that some of you people are going insane about, very little of that helps the individual. People aren't getting their pve ships reimbursed by them thats for sure. 0.0 profits not going up, 0.0 costs to maintain increasing, how is that making nullsec worth it at all. Not a single person here that wants nullsec income to remain the same has posted what they do right now to gain income and how much they make, or done so with their main. The only ones that have have admitted to running level 4s.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:09:00 - [2557]
 

Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Alekanderu

moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept


Because they're mouth-breathing, semi-literate, uninformed and clueless, and can't resist entering into debate with the classic unbiased apolitical no-hidden-agenda-honest "lol goonie tears" tactic.


Unbiased lol
Goons are the most worthless, least able, worst complainers- this whole thread reads like WAHHHHHHHHHH
and he calls them "unbiased" lol

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:11:00 - [2558]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.


Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.


Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.

If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:12:00 - [2559]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space


Currently there are exactly zero pure military alliances holding space in 0.0

All of the currently alliances have an industry backbone to some degree. ALL the large alliances have an extended and pretty large industry backbone.

The pure military alliances do not hold space but live in 0.0 npc space or in low sec and start their roamings from that space. So they are not affected from sov changes at all. They couldn't care less about paying upkeeps.


Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:13:00 - [2560]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: NxN
Yeah, this is really bad. It shifts the whole thing entirely.


I WANT TO HOLD THE SYSTEM BECAUSE I CAN DEFEND IT!!!

Not because I can pay damn bills...




Really get a grip CCP.


You don't have to hold sovereignty over all space you want to control. Defending it will be quite a challenge actually.


Big alliances will continue to control the space they deem necessary to hold. You're delusional to think that no-sov systems in a region will make that region easier to take but then again, I've been reading your posts for the last few payges.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:13:00 - [2561]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Unbiased lol
Goons are the most worthless, least able, worst complainers- this whole thread reads like WAHHHHHHHHHH
and he calls them "unbiased" lol


You haven't read this thread.

This thread where on multiple occasions people state that the current proposals won't bring anyone new into 0.0, and that we're in an excellent position anyway, and that we're looking forward to many more factions, powerblocs and organisations moving to 0.0 to we can have even more politics.

Semi-literate much?

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:13:00 - [2562]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Honest Smedley

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.


And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.

Not so much, no. Those jump bridges networks and throw away cap fleets aren't materializing out of nowhere... and your alliance isn't funding them off the backs of people grinding out missions in Irjunen. If you aren't personally benefitting from the silly money your alliance is rolling in as much as you think you should, consider finding a new alliance.

Did you think the titan conga line came out of an Irjunen-based LP store?


Someone update this if there's stuff I missed

Empire mission running
Income
Mission rewards
Scavenging
Taxes (in Dominion)

Recurring costs
Ammo

0.0 ratting
Income
Bounties
Scavenging
Reimbursement programs

Recurring cost
Ammo
Importing/Exporting
Piracy losses
Fleet losses
Corp dues


Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:14:00 - [2563]
 

Edited by: Alekanderu on 09/11/2009 19:14:29
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Alekanderu

moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept


Because they're mouth-breathing, semi-literate, uninformed and clueless, and can't resist entering into debate with the classic unbiased apolitical no-hidden-agenda-honest "lol goonie tears" tactic.


Unbiased lol
Goons are the most worthless, least able, worst complainers- this whole thread reads like WAHHHHHHHHHH
and he calls them "unbiased" lol


our worst enemies in-game are posting in this very thread agreeing with us 100%

this has nothing to do with what alliance you belong to, and everything to do with living in 0.0

also like everyone else has pointed out, this affects large alliances like us the least

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:14:00 - [2564]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...


Actually, I want income significantly above what L4s offer, as well as moon profits(albeit significantly reduced moon profits). It's 0.0, it's supposed to be profitable, to make it worth dealing with all the crap.

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.


Of course. But then, corps have no infrastructure costs - like, literally zero - in highsec. In nullsec, it's measured in tens of billions, for small alliances. Big alliances will own the better part of a trillion worth of outposts, and probably another trillion worth of POSes. You need corp-level and alliance-level income far more in 0.0 than you do in highsec.

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Ratting is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.


Ratting in highsec is a tolerable way for a week-old newbie to earn some isk. Ratting in nullsec is supposed to be the way that five year old players earn the bulk of their money for capital/faction/T2 ships. They're not comparable. Compare ratting to L4 missions, the highsec content that's actually equivalent.

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Mining is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.


If you're mining, you're not doing it right. Also, are you factoring into your profits the cost of a Minmatar outpost? I hear they're a tad on the expensive side.

Originally by: Honest Smedley
WHing is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.


True, but this is a lot like the true part of ratting. Highsec WHs are designed for one guy in a Drake. Nullsec WHs are designed for a dozen guys in well-coordinated balls of logistics ships and BSes. Of course, there is no comparable highsec content for a group like that(more's the pity), but still, you can't really compare them straight across.

Originally by: Jessibel Kwao
Let's see...

Over 80 pages with all the big fat space-holding and moon-mining entities, which are rpelacing capital ships like they were frigates are starting a threadnought and are whining that they have to work for their wealth after Dominion hits TQ.

Yes, I like it... keep it coming CCP Twisted Evil


Turn off the jealousy and schadenfreude for a minute and actually look at the issues at hand. 0.0 people agree that the status quo is idiotic, they just want a fix to it that's actually good. This isn't a zero sum game, where 0.0 getting worse implies that you'll be better off. A bad change is a bad change, whether it hurts you directly or not. Stop cheerleading for it just because it hurts people you don't like.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:14:00 - [2565]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Guy in Motsu: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me buys a million rounds off market"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me flies 8j to the nearest station with any on market"

Guy in Motsu: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling. /me flies 6j to Jita and sells it all in half an hour...Nice, I can afford a Nightmare!"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling...oh wait, I just got ganked flying through 17j of nullsec to deliver all my money to market. This is a nightmare."

I don't claim that living in 0.0 is like the labours of Hercules, but even the most cursory glance at how you have to live out there will tell you that the logistics effort is considerable, even for someone who isn't tasked with keeping the POS infrastructure up and running.

You nicely elaborated what I said but avoided the question. Is it justifying ie. higher rat bounties? I say big NO.

0.0 is group content therefore you should benefit from being in a group. More alliance/corp income, more tools how to distribute them = lower personal profit, high benefits of claimed space.

Transfering high sec mechanics into 0.0 will just turn the space into High sec mk2.

Originally by: Qlanth
Once again you are doing a great job letting everyone know you have never been to 0.0 space. No average player is going to have a goddamn R64 moon towered up raking in profits for themselves. An average player in my alliance won't have any moon above an R16. The alliance mines those moons and uses profits to pay for fuel for holding space the rest of the space we require to support a 6,000 man alliance, or super-capitals to help defend it.


Whats the point discussing with you when you don't read/understand post you are replying to?

Originally by: Qlanth
My alliance, or most alliances, does not hand out free ships to people to fly.


Dude, face it. Your alliance sucks.



Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:17:00 - [2566]
 

Originally by: Kepakh

Dude, face it. Your alliance sucks.



That's about the only thing you've gotten right so far in your febrile inane ramblings.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:22:00 - [2567]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Guy in Motsu: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me buys a million rounds off market"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me flies 8j to the nearest station with any on market"

Guy in Motsu: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling. /me flies 6j to Jita and sells it all in half an hour...Nice, I can afford a Nightmare!"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling...oh wait, I just got ganked flying through 17j of nullsec to deliver all my money to market. This is a nightmare."

I don't claim that living in 0.0 is like the labours of Hercules, but even the most cursory glance at how you have to live out there will tell you that the logistics effort is considerable, even for someone who isn't tasked with keeping the POS infrastructure up and running.

You nicely elaborated what I said but avoided the question. Is it justifying ie. higher rat bounties? I say big NO.

0.0 is group content therefore you should benefit from being in a group. More alliance/corp income, more tools how to distribute them = lower personal profit, high benefits of claimed space.

Transfering high sec mechanics into 0.0 will just turn the space into High sec mk2.

Originally by: Qlanth
Once again you are doing a great job letting everyone know you have never been to 0.0 space. No average player is going to have a goddamn R64 moon towered up raking in profits for themselves. An average player in my alliance won't have any moon above an R16. The alliance mines those moons and uses profits to pay for fuel for holding space the rest of the space we require to support a 6,000 man alliance, or super-capitals to help defend it.


Whats the point discussing with you when you don't read/understand post you are replying to?

Originally by: Qlanth
My alliance, or most alliances, does not hand out free ships to people to fly.


Dude, face it. Your alliance sucks.





I understand perfectly what I am replying to.

You said "You want L4 Missions running profits + moon income. You want too much"

I said "No average member of my alliance sees moon income beyond the level of cushioning losses for PvP done defending those moons, or acquiring more moons (this is essentially what all 0.0 warfare boils down to)."

I do not want to see Level 4 mission running income. I want to see income better than that because I am risking more and expected to do more than a corp member in an empire corp that has 0 logistics infrastructure and 0 risk to account for.

You are only showing that you know less and less about the issue by suggesting an average player is seeing alliance level R64 income.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:24:00 - [2568]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Transfering high sec mechanics into 0.0 will just turn the space into High sec mk2.


what are you talking about

"high sec mechanics" means concord, faction navies and stations that let everyone dock

what you don't seem to grasp - either because you're utterly clueless or because you're being intentionally obtuse - is that for the vast majority of players, the vast majority of the time, making isk in 0.0 is not worth it compared to highsec mission running; this is what it all boils down to

if you want more people to move into 0.0 then you need to create more incentive for people to do so

under current mechanics, the only real advantage of conquerable 0.0 space is r64 moon mining and supercap production in invulnerable sov 4 systems; with the current suggested changes, moon mining will be less profitable and invulnerable supercap producing poses go away, while the other aspects of 0.0 remain unchanged, so that there is less incentive for anyone to want to move to 0.0; this is exacerbated by the fact that small alliances will find it much harder to survive and stay profitable in 0.0 compared to large ones

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:25:00 - [2569]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 09/11/2009 19:28:03
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Guy in Motsu: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me buys a million rounds off market"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me flies 8j to the nearest station with any on market"

Guy in Motsu: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling. /me flies 6j to Jita and sells it all in half an hour...Nice, I can afford a Nightmare!"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling...oh wait, I just got ganked flying through 17j of nullsec to deliver all my money to market. This is a nightmare."

I don't claim that living in 0.0 is like the labours of Hercules, but even the most cursory glance at how you have to live out there will tell you that the logistics effort is considerable, even for someone who isn't tasked with keeping the POS infrastructure up and running.

You nicely elaborated what I said but avoided the question. Is it justifying ie. higher rat bounties? I say big NO.

0.0 is group content therefore you should benefit from being in a group. More alliance/corp income, more tools how to distribute them = lower personal profit, high benefits of claimed space.

Transfering high sec mechanics into 0.0 will just turn the space into High sec mk2.


I'll say this bluntly, though I'm sure you've already inferred my position on this from my previous posts.

- Reward should be, at least broadly, proportional to risk, both in general and in the context of any given activity type available across risk categories.
- 0.0 is riskier than highsec, by several orders of magnitude.
- Thus, 0.0 should pay better than highsec in every meaningful way. Solo content, group content, corp-level income, the works.

I don't care about the mechanism. If you want to do it by upping rat bounties, rat quality, rat quantity, rat droppings, officer spawn rates, or just by having magic isk fairies floating around on nullsec gates, that's cool with me. As long as it's fun, profitable, and scalable, I'm cool with anything. But it's absurd to say that moons justify 0.0 being crap for players - "hold the moons, mission in highsec" is awful gameplay and moronic design.

And no, I don't want L4 mechanics. They're really kind of boring, which is why I've basically stopped doing them. I want L4 profit and then some. The mechanics can be whatever you like, it's the money that's the problem.

Uberfrau
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:26:00 - [2570]
 

Edited by: Uberfrau on 09/11/2009 19:31:40
Edited by: Uberfrau on 09/11/2009 19:25:58
Originally by: Qlanth
It still seems like people do not understand basic things:

Almost every major 0.0 alliance not only supports but has been pushing for changes to make cyno-jammers less desirable and more expensive. Our CSM representatives are the ones who suggested it, we are the ones who supported it.

Almost every 0.0 alliance also supports the idea of scaling back the amount of space they hold. If you think that Atlas alliance holds 7 regions of space because they want to and not because they HAVE TO to support their players you are wrong. The logistics involved in fueling 7 regions of systems and keeping a jump bridge network online is intense. I'm 100% sure that all of ATLAS would gladly shed those regions GIVEN THAT THEY CAN SUPPORT THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

These changes make it very difficult to afford a huge number of regions (good) but give a TERRIBLE alternative for those people to support themselves in consolidated space.

Adding two Cosmic Anomalies will support 0 new players because no one runs them in the first place. They are terrible. Fix Cosmic Anomalies, make it 5 guaranteed in every system with the upgrade and you will be on the right track for making this balance out.


I'm in total agreement with this. Except Atlas doesn't hold 7 regions, but....

Needing less space == good.

Current implementation of that goal == not so good.

Flaming, ******ed angry sh*tposting == pointless.

Basically, it seems like CCP needs a better understanding of what is or isn't actually profitable or fun in 0.0 before they decide how much to charge for those abilities. Sure, they've got these nifty mini-professions, but how many of them are actually being used? Do they have any metrics on this? Because 90% of what people find while scanning for **** to do gets passed over for the 10% that works and is profitable, or at least not a horrific waste of time.

And honestly, grinding to make monthly payments to get the next upgrade of grindability? That's pretty much everything that sucks about every MMO from Evony to Warcraft distilled down to a single point of Failure.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:29:00 - [2571]
 

Originally by: Locii
Originally by: Mikal Drey
@Verone

flag+hub purely to anchor a pos :/ thats an epic joke.




you are shi**ing me on this arnt you?

i need to take a freighter into a system to get sov just so i can anchour a pos to live in what is effectivly a empty useless system?


Drum roll . .. tada

i **** you not. you cannot anchor a cynojammer, cyno beacon, jump bridge or build a supercap WITHOUT a flag+hub+sov for a set period.

setup a pos yes, setup moon goo yes. do anything logistical - no.

and thats pretty much what 90% of the complaints are about. its a MASSIVE bill for effectivly just setting up a jump bridge :/

@V

your funny, short, and northern. remind me i owe you a johnny walker Wink


Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:31:00 - [2572]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 19:24:24
Originally by: Qlanth


Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.

If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.


IF its not worth it then why are you staying there ????? Are you stupid ?

Oh wait ...


I stay in 0.0 because it means I can PvP without being penalized like in every other region of Eve. I enjoy large fights over R64 moons, I enjoy playing with a large group of people to obtain an objective (R64 Moons), and I enjoy the politics involved with these things.

If this patch goes through as is I believe you will see most alliances consolidate their space, but not in the way CCP intended. Fights will take place over who has access to NPC sov 0.0 and the best agents. Stain will become the richest most contested region in the Eve Universe. My alliance will probably maintain Sov in R64 systems while basing entirely out of NPC space, or even lowsec.

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:32:00 - [2573]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
IF its not worth it then why are you staying there ????? Are you stupid ?

Oh wait ...
Yes. To the extent that I try to make ISK in 0.0, I'm quite dumb. I should give up and just grind isk on my empire alt. What people in this thread are saying is that we'd like the game to change so that it is no longer the smart thing to do to give up on 0.0. I personally feel that the focus on ratting is just the tip of the iceberg, but I guess we can put off talking about industry until the ratting situation is resolved.

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:33:00 - [2574]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 19:24:24
Originally by: Qlanth


Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.

If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.


IF its not worth it then why are you staying there ????? Are you stupid ?

Oh wait ...


I stay in 0.0 because it means I can PvP without being penalized like in every other region of Eve. I enjoy large fights over R64 moons, I enjoy playing with a large group of people to obtain an objective (R64 Moons), and I enjoy the politics involved with these things.

If this patch goes through as is I believe you will see most alliances consolidate their space, but not in the way CCP intended. Fights will take place over who has access to NPC sov 0.0 and the best agents. Stain will become the richest most contested region in the Eve Universe. My alliance will probably maintain Sov in R64 systems while basing entirely out of NPC space, or even lowsec.


Then you and I will frolic, arm in arm, around the Stain mission hubs!

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:33:00 - [2575]
 

Originally by: Kepakh

You nicely elaborated what I said but avoided the question. Is it justifying ie. higher rat bounties? I say big NO.

0.0 is group content therefore you should benefit from being in a group. More alliance/corp income, more tools how to distribute them = lower personal profit, high benefits of claimed space.


How do you make your money and how much do you make? Its nice to want group content to be there and to award greater rewards, but its not there and this patch does nothing for that. Basing your whole argument over something they might do in the future maybe is stupid. Increase personal gain now, increase group gain even more in the future. You dont have to **** up this thread about how no one should be able to make money by themselves because you have some fantasy of awesome group content that wont be here any time soon.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:33:00 - [2576]
 

This new expansion will do nothing more than trade one soul crushing grind for another. It does not solve anything.


Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:34:00 - [2577]
 

Originally by: Qlanth

I understand perfectly what I am replying to.

You said "You want L4 Missions running profits + moon income. You want too much"



Originally by: Kepakh
Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...



All the ISK pouring from moon mining gets spread in the alliance - it is funding the alliance infrastructure and providing alliance/corp level benefits as well as funding military efforts.
But you still don't include it into your personal wallet. If there were no moons, you would need to run quite more of L4 to run the things you are enjoying due moon mining now. You are profiting from moon mining everytime you dock in their station, everytime you see GoonSwarm dot on sovereignty map.

Oh god, it is so tiring talking to Goon :(


Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:34:00 - [2578]
 

Yeah for those catching the last 20 odd pages of this thread do not in any way think this is a goon only grief.

Hell most of us hate goons, its what they are there for and there terrific at it... this is different.

You should realize what a big deal it is when alliances like goons/aaa/atlas/morsus/cva and all the others actually agree on something... its almost unheard of.

The unprecedented unity from most of nulsec in basically saying dominion sov changes are a tad on the rubbish side... MMO's that ignore such a strong reaction from such a large part of there player base end up going the way of SWG's

Yes I'm a doomsayer, I see EVE crumbling at every opportunity as i have a big lack of faith in companies that run them, this whole thing makes me really worried, because normally its just me quietly grumbling about it all... well not this time it seems.

Uberfrau
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:35:00 - [2579]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
If this patch goes through as is I believe you will see most alliances consolidate their space, but not in the way CCP intended. Fights will take place over who has access to NPC sov 0.0 and the best agents. Stain will become the richest most contested region in the Eve Universe. My alliance will probably maintain Sov in R64 systems while basing entirely out of NPC space, or even lowsec.


Or perhaps even highsec.

A solid means of protest would be Jihad Mk II, in which the NC and GBC, along with any other 0.0 entities, band together to continuously beat the snot out of everyone in Empire.

Treji
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:39:00 - [2580]
 

Quote:
I said "No average member of my alliance sees moon income beyond the level of cushioning losses for PvP done defending those moons, or acquiring more moons (this is essentially what all 0.0 warfare boils down to)."



Actually, you are missing the point of the expansion- CCP are moving 0.0 warfare AWAY from moon aquisition. Moons were essentially a passive isk income after you established good cyno jamming etc and the infrastructure to defend them.

If members could be arsed, there are lots of ways to make isk in 0.0 sec space. However, a lot of players think 0.0 space is just for PvP purposes; sure, PvP conflict with competing alliances etc needed, but utilising the space to build an empire is better. You can't expect to sit about PvPing and just pop off for a quick hour of isk making to cover expenses once a month. Building empires takes time and effort, planning, co-operation and peserverance. I'm sure there are many corps itching to take your spots if you decide that it's to much effort and go mission-running....

The majority of the *****ing is from a couple allainces that probably had grandiose schemes of taking over all regions of 0.0 etc. The reality of actually utilising that space and making it pay its way obviously is too much of a reality check, since many in such allainces haven't the inclination to do much apart from PvP for 'free' (on account of moon incomes). They throw the toys and wail loudly to get noticed, but they may get smart and find a region to consolidate in and try new things...

I, and many other players, don't think 0.0 space income can possibly be compared to 0.0 space expected income. The two are completely different animals. If its about personal isk income, then you shouldn't be in 0.0 in the first place...especially if you depended on allainces to supply ships etc, and now are faced with the fat provider cow being slaughtered...


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