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Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:29:00 - [2521]
 

Edited by: Pointfive on 09/11/2009 18:31:17
Edited by: Pointfive on 09/11/2009 18:29:49
Originally by: Kepakh
I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.




I'm sure if your boss came and told you were getting a raise to the same income as the guy who sits next to you and works half as much as time as you do , you would be freaking ecstatic.

Maybe you dont care if this attracts empire dwellers, but that was a goal of the patch. Maybe you dont care you make the same as l4's, im assuming because you run level 4's. Otherwise its awesome that you do not value your own time. Even if the anomalies made more than level 4's most of the time due to having actual competition for spawns and cosntantly having people wanting you dead, you will rarely see that much isk.



Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:30:00 - [2522]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 09/11/2009 18:31:42
Originally by: Verone
CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding.


The principles behind the changes are indeed outstanding. Outstanding idiotic.

Instead of a better sandbox where you can really develop your space on your own and free from limits we will have a totally artificial system that requires people to grind to 'unlock' the next 'level of upgrades'.

Originally by: Verone
And all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.

Who whined about that?

Only the losers whinened because they didn't take the effort to do so. Goons didn't whine about taking (undefended) Delve. Atlas didn't whine about taking (undefended) Omist. Atlas didn't whine about kicking RA out. Ev0ke isn't whining about Cloud Ring. IT isn't whining. Please show me those whines from the pvp guys. With enough firepower a pos will pop anyway pretty fast. Besides that, if hardened towers would be the problem, maybe change the hardeners then? lol

The guys who are doing the pvp didn't whine. Only some guys who cannot be arsed to get their ass up and do some stuff, they did whine.

But guess what. It won't become easier for them! Quite the contrary. Because now they do not only need to fight all their enemies, they additionally need to pay for all the space they already have.

Originally by: Verone
0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out.

Oh yeah sure, that's why even 20 days before launch the major parts of the overhaul aren't finalized. That is indeed very sound.

And well thought out? Yes, if you want a fixed theme park, then it is well thought out. Because nothing else is what CCP is implementing. They are throwing away the sandbox.

And besides that, if things are so well thought out, then why is recieving CVA the finger then? Those guys are the role model for successful 0.0 management and the base idea for CCP for this expansion. Only to bad that they will be wiped from existance. Yeah, very sound indeed.

It looks to me that CCP lost their direction and vision on a massive scale. TIME TO WAKE UP!


POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!

The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes and and and

But POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:31:00 - [2523]
 

Originally by: Brunaburh

One of the things that keeps confusing me about this thread is that everyone talks as if:
(a) they need SOV in every system they use...
and
(b) they need to keep SOV in every system they have now.


Well, probably what will happen is alliances will only claim sov in a few key systems, but prevent anyone from moving into the systems that they don't have sov in. I don't think this is something CCP should be encouraging -- it's going to lead to two maps, the "real territory map", the space that each alliance claims, and the "sov map", the space where the alliance actually has sov.

The FLAGs should have no upkeep, only infrastructure hubs, since as far as I know there's no benefit from having a FLAG with no infrastructure hub.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:32:00 - [2524]
 

Originally by: Uphill Gardner
Why? Who in their right mind will haul freighter 40+ jumps into 0.0 few systems away from 200 dread fleet? Who would be even stupid enough to try and anchor that thing, and then pay billions for a promise of few anomalies in the system? Do you know how much it takes to make 40 jumps with freighter?? With gatecamps along the way? Yeah, I', betting those small alliances wanting their piece of 0.0 will have a blast!

What?
Why would I jump +40 jump in a freighter? How many systems do you need for jump bridge network to empire considering you live 50 jumps away? 5 or 6 top.

Currently the alliance is holding sovereignty over all those 50 systems leading to high sec. You can drop 45 systems just to keep JB network and establish mining arrays in the surrounding systems. No sovereignty is needed for that. This make you ISK your alliance need.

Then you let corps to claim other systems to get a grip on space upgrades or claim and develope some other systems with startegical value.

This is how Dominion will curently work.


Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:33:00 - [2525]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
Upgrades = good (just not balanced right)
the idea of an upgrade system is good

the mechanics for implementing upgrades are good

the upgrades themselves are poop a doodle doo

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:37:00 - [2526]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tippia
I'm already in a dictor. As for a reimbursement scheme, it doesn't particularly matter: if they're getting their PvP ships replaced, then their personal ship loss will be the same as in highsec… except for the PvE ships lost to reds;

You losing ships while ratting? lulz


I take it you've never been to 0.0? Here's a hint: there are people trying to kill you out here. Some of them even know how to run a half-competent gate camp.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:40:00 - [2527]
 

It still seems like people do not understand basic things:

Almost every major 0.0 alliance not only supports but has been pushing for changes to make cyno-jammers less desirable and more expensive. Our CSM representatives are the ones who suggested it, we are the ones who supported it.

Almost every 0.0 alliance also supports the idea of scaling back the amount of space they hold. If you think that Atlas alliance holds 7 regions of space because they want to and not because they HAVE TO to support their players you are wrong. The logistics involved in fueling 7 regions of systems and keeping a jump bridge network online is intense. I'm 100% sure that all of ATLAS would gladly shed those regions GIVEN THAT THEY CAN SUPPORT THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

These changes make it very difficult to afford a huge number of regions (good) but give a TERRIBLE alternative for those people to support themselves in consolidated space.

Adding two Cosmic Anomalies will support 0 new players because no one runs them in the first place. They are terrible. Fix Cosmic Anomalies, make it 5 guaranteed in every system with the upgrade and you will be on the right track for making this balance out.

Bill'Husker'Adama
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:40:00 - [2528]
 

Originally by: Kalisti
If EVE wants alliances to maintain infrastructure in nullsec, let's take that sandbox all the way and fix nullsec once and for all.

They say that the upkeep costs are to maintain the jump gates? Let's get rid of nullsec NPC jump gates entirely and replace it with an entirely player-driven mechanic.

Nullsec PvP'ers don't want to farm for income? Let's get a realistic passive income option into play for nullsec alliances.

CCP is unhappy with the dominance of point-source moon mining driving all nullsec strategy into identical cookie-cutter behaviors? Let's broaden the spectrum of income options WITHOUT forcing nullsec pilots to farm, let alone to farm at a rate that doesn't even match empire farm income.

Add an entirely new passive income mechanic; planetary taxation and growth. Let's turn alliances into real empires within the scope of the game.

Despite the fact that the much-vaunted player driven economy is an important part of EVE, the reality is that the economy in question is the CAPSULEER economy; the economy of ships and modules. We know that in reality, the capsuleer is an elite of EVE society, and the average empire's income comes from the everyday taxation of normal citizens living on all those pretty light-filled planets we never get to visit.

So let's take that realistic approach and apply it to nullsec. Alliance control of nullsec should not be just about point source resources being exploited and shipped back to empire. As long as that is the case, only a select few are ever going to choose to (or even be able to) live exclusively in nullsec.

Let's add in planetary economies and NPC expansion into nullsec space, based on how player alliances manage their nullsec regions and how attractive and safe they make it for settlement. In short, turn alliances into empires and nullsec capsuleers into their militaries. The goal of an alliance should be to beef up their controlled territories to the point that they LOOK LIKE empire space. They should be required to BUILD the jump gates and establish safe trade routes, after first securing the region with their jump-capable fleets. Then prepare the planets for colonization, so that they can be filled with NPC populations and economies, whose tax base makes up the majority income source for the alliance. Who in turn build NPC stations filled with high quality agents for alliance players to use (and, oh yeah, let the alliance tax the agent rewards).

The primary difference is that it is still nullsec; anyone can come in and blow up anyone else, but instead of getting CONCORDed, it is now the job of the alliance military (i.e. pvp players) to decide how to respond. Security is poor? People (real and NPC) will move out, your tax base shrinks, your alliance is unhappy.

The final necessary mechanic is that taking over an alliance's territory should not be about blowing everything up and replacing it with your own stuff. It should be about capturing valuable economic assets; planets that alliances have invested in to increase the tax base should switch hands, not be wiped out to reset at 0. Jump gates, NPC stations, planetary populations, should be valuable strategic assets that an invading alliance will think very hard about blowing up, because replacing it may take them months of effort and billions of ISK. Rather than regions of nullsec space being more or less valuable as an intrinsic property, nullsec space should ALL START EQUAL, and the primary value should come from the investments made by alliances in creating jump gates, establishing trade routes, and promoting planetary economies.

That is how you will get people to move to 0.0 space, and produce compelling pvp at every scale. Let alliances become empires.

Frankly, anything short of this will never accomplish the goal of moving people into 0.0 space. It will always be populated by those devoted to 0.0 pvp for the sake of 0.0 pvp, and they will simply work around whatever broken mechanics CCP continues to introduce.


This. I see a lot of complaining, however a lot of people seem to not realize that dominion is only the first step in revamping 0.0. CCP have stated that the above post is where they want to eventually take 0.0. It will take time, trial and error. Be patient, quit complaining and offer constructive ideas. You all want to see the game improved. Give the devs a chance to do it.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:41:00 - [2529]
 

YES OR NO: Ham sandwich or tuna salad.

Still waiting.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:41:00 - [2530]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
You have obviously never been in 0.0 space or tried to make money there. Cyno Jammers are there not to protect the average person running around trying to make ISK to buy a ship. They are there to protect logistics (jumpbridges) or to protect R64 moons. No one uses a capital ship to disrupt mining, ratting, or exploring unless they are heinously rich.

Also I have never been in a system with 200+ people that wasn't the focus of a war. My alliance on average has 500-600 people online (assuming there are no critical ops) and these people are spread over most of Delve and the rest of the galaxy doing whatever it is they do. The most people I have ever seen in a non-contested, non-empire system at once is probably in NOL- with 50-60 people in system, 45-50 of them docked and the rest moving in and out.

No one puts 200 blues and bubbles every gate to protect ratters. In fact I can't remember the last time anyone bubbled an entire gate to protect themselves from the possibility of a roaming gang. It is not reasonable and ends up disrupting the average player more than a gang that may or may not be coming.

No one perma camps a gate to protect ratters. The closest thing to a perma camp you will ever see is probably on the lowsec/0.0 border gates - but most roaming gangs don't start from lowsec. They start in other regions of 0.0

In a normal day in the system I normally base out of I see about 2 reds come through every hour. Most of these are just passing through but some of them are actually looking to kill some ratters. Of course you can't tell which is which so you need to stop what you are doing to get safe or else risk losing your ship but still preserving your ISK/hr

Or I could just run missions in high sec and be completely safe making the exact same amount.


Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Alekanderu
how can you post something this stupendously moronic and expect anyone to take anything you say even remotely seriously?

Because I am expecting someone else but Goons read this thread, someone being able to understand that exaggareted example serves for better demonstration of principles behind it.

You can read the comparison with shuttle couple posts above if that is more understandable for you.


Originally by: Qlanth
People are ratting in 0.0 despite of level 4 missions because they do not have multiple characters and if you are expected to be able to defend your space from hostiles you cannot be in Motsu running a storyline, you need to be ready in an instant.

0.0 is a terrible excuse for a "home" and the only reason people put up with it right now is the insane alliance-level profit from R64s that give tjhe ability for alliances to afford Titans/more Outposts to Sov4 R64 moons and the ability to PvP without penalty.


Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...


Originally by: Pointfive
I'm sure if your boss came and told you were getting a raise to the same income as the guy who sits next to you and works half as much as time as you do , you would be freaking ecstatic.

Maybe you dont care if this attracts empire dwellers, but that was a goal of the patch. Maybe you dont care you make the same as l4's, im assuming because you run level 4's. Otherwise its awesome that you do not value your own time. Even if the anomalies made more than level 4's most of the time due to having actual competition for spawns and cosntantly having people wanting you dead, you will rarely see that much isk.


Read my other posts, I explained why 0.0 ratting shouldn't be equal not even being compared to L4.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:43:00 - [2531]
 

The problem with "this is only the first step!" is that if you take the first step in a weak, half-assed, almost "pre-nerfed" way then you will see a lot of people get fed up and leave before they can take the second step.

CCP has been really good lately about releasing things completely prenerfed and then wondering why everyone is completely underwhelmed by what they did (see: Black-Ops battleships, Tech 3 Cruisers) and then taking 6 months to un-nerf them.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:45:00 - [2532]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 09/11/2009 18:47:37
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tippia
Not if it's going to attract highsec dwellers, since it means they won't have the same infinite resources to pull ISK from. I.e. they'll get less ISK if they move out of highsec.
I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
In other words, you don't care whether Dominion will achieves the stated goals of CCP. So why are you even in this thread if you don't care about the topic being discussed?
Quote:
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.
People ratting in 0.0 won't be affected by these changes. Not good.
Quote:
You losing ships while ratting? lulz
The people Dominion was slated to bring out there will. Of course, since there's nothing in the patch to achieve this goal, they will stay in highsec.
Quote:
Read my other posts, I explained why 0.0 ratting shouldn't be equal not even being compared to L4.
No, you only managed to explain that you don't understand the issue at hand.

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:46:00 - [2533]
 

Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Still waiting....

Still a bad question.

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.
Ratting is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
Mining is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
WHing is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.

Locii
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:48:00 - [2534]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
@Verone


flag+hub purely to anchor a pos :/ thats an epic joke.




you are shi**ing me on this arnt you?

i need to take a freighter into a system to get sov just so i can anchour a pos to live in what is effectivly a empty useless system?

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:48:00 - [2535]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.
Ratting is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
Mining is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
WHing is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.


And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.

Elassus Herron
Caldari
Construction Cabal
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:49:00 - [2536]
 

Originally by: Verone

It's going to take a while, and the new system will adapt as time goes on, just like people will adapt to use it as it evolves.

Verone, I agree with you: this is a massive change to the game mechanic, and it would be stupid to try to change it so much all at once. If I understand CCP correctly - and they haven't made it easy - they are focusing on building the system first, so that they can tweak the numbers later.

Fine. But the current upgrades suck so hard, and the current fees are so murderous, that CCP risks killing exactly the kind of gameplay they're trying to cultivate. Nobody is going to invest months of time, defense, ships, etc., spend billions on infrastructure, and on and on: just so they can have one system that can provide 10-15 people with the equivalent income that L4s could have been making them from the first day.

When I first heard about the upgrades, I was honestly excited. Finally! The crappy truesec where I live could maybe be turned into something more lucrative. So far, nothing I've read from CCP suggests that my time wouldn't be better spent going back to Motsu. (and btw, crashing mineral prices would be fine, if it meant I could build myself many more nice ships in exchange for the time I spent mining).

As Niamota Olin says: what we in 0.0 would really like would be something that fuels our pvp habits much more effectively, makes the politics more interesting, the encounters more dynamic, etc.. That was a stated goal of this patch. Nothing I've heard suggests that this patch won't do exactly the opposite. I would consider it an ideal situation if I never had to go to hisec, for anything, ever, and could feed all the pvp I could ever want (and buy all my shineys, and whatever else I wanted) from my home system(s).

I also haven't seen anything explaining how CCP is going to avoid XYZ-Alliance claiming sov in only the half-dozen constellations where they do their cap construction, and then dropping cans by every gate across three regions warning off intruders. Great. Now they own all that space without having to claim it! Well done!

Sure hope you guys at HQ have been spending today in meetings trying to figure out how to fix this, and not just ignoring us.

EH

Jessibel Kwao
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:51:00 - [2537]
 

Let's see...

Over 80 pages with all the big fat space-holding and moon-mining entities, which are rpelacing capital ships like they were frigates are starting a threadnought and are whining that they have to work for their wealth after Dominion hits TQ.

Yes, I like it... keep it coming CCP Twisted Evil

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:51:00 - [2538]
 

Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:52:00 - [2539]
 

Originally by: zelalot
Originally by: Lord Helghast
in the end i think this sets out and will eventually accomplish some of what it sets to do, it will shrink larger alliances soverignty, namely because they dont have the time or effort to grind 100's of systems or the manpower to do so, to pay the fees for all those extra systems, even with their moons mining.... running in on a billion a month for properly setup systems, thats a lot of cash for a system to get sov and go unused.

The problem i do see with this is that due to the high cost it will make the very small alliances think twice about even taking one system do to the inherent high cost, a 2-3 corp alliance of 30 people will be taking a big financial hit on that first buy in each month for 1 system properly setup.

My question would be why not make soverignty fees a incremental increase, first system = 1/4th the price 2-5 systems 1/2 the price and 5+ systems for the standard price, that way the first swath of space is relatively cheap, and once an alliance tries to go farther they start to get even more expensive and harder to justify purchasing.

That instead of 1 static fee for any sov


CCP predicts more alliances will be set up under a banner name.

Alliance a
Alliance b
Alliance c

and that way they will only ever pay a small fee for the systems.

You also missed the rest of that conversation/thread. They didn't seem concerned about it because entities like that would lose cohesion between each other in the long run.

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:52:00 - [2540]
 

relating to the pos fueling thing....
Most pos's will likely stay up anyway.

They said all along that part of dominion was to be more dynamic and stop the slow pos grind....
So they bring in 12 hour timed attacks/defences and require you to take down at least one structure that is basically an uber POS... erm how exactly is that getting away from a pos grind.. so its faster... great so with the new systems we pay for and upgrade with more isk etc, we can loose it quicker too, fabulous change.... but still basically a pos grind disguised as a kids capture the flag game.


Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:52:00 - [2541]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
The problem with "this is only the first step!" is that if you take the first step in a weak, half-assed, almost "pre-nerfed" way then you will see a lot of people get fed up and leave before they can take the second step.

CCP has been really good lately about releasing things completely prenerfed and then wondering why everyone is completely underwhelmed by what they did (see: Black-Ops battleships, Tech 3 Cruisers) and then taking 6 months to un-nerf them.


Verone has a good argument for CCP pre-nerfing this, and its likely isk sources will get turned up once its known how to do it in the right way. You should probably read his post, its very good and makes a lot of sense. CCP is taking a very bold step here, and it is risky in many ways, but it has to be done because 0.0 is currently extremely broken along the lines of current Sov, cap ships, naps and moons. This patch is INTENDED to force you to drop Sov. That is the goal. This was pointed out from the start. Confronted with the reality of that you are freaking out and crying. Everyone has known this for months. Stop whining so much.

There will be chaos, anarchy and dislocation. This means war, this means profit. I am for it.

So I have one question for you punk:

Can I have your stuff?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:54:00 - [2542]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 09/11/2009 18:55:47
Originally by: Kepakh

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Alekanderu
how can you post something this stupendously moronic and expect anyone to take anything you say even remotely seriously?

Because I am expecting someone else but Goons read this thread, someone being able to understand that exaggareted example serves for better demonstration of principles behind it.

You can read the comparison with shuttle couple posts above if that is more understandable for you.


Originally by: Qlanth
People are ratting in 0.0 despite of level 4 missions because they do not have multiple characters and if you are expected to be able to defend your space from hostiles you cannot be in Motsu running a storyline, you need to be ready in an instant.

0.0 is a terrible excuse for a "home" and the only reason people put up with it right now is the insane alliance-level profit from R64s that give tjhe ability for alliances to afford Titans/more Outposts to Sov4 R64 moons and the ability to PvP without penalty.


Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...


Originally by: Pointfive
I'm sure if your boss came and told you were getting a raise to the same income as the guy who sits next to you and works half as much as time as you do , you would be freaking ecstatic.

Maybe you dont care if this attracts empire dwellers, but that was a goal of the patch. Maybe you dont care you make the same as l4's, im assuming because you run level 4's. Otherwise its awesome that you do not value your own time. Even if the anomalies made more than level 4's most of the time due to having actual competition for spawns and cosntantly having people wanting you dead, you will rarely see that much isk.


Read my other posts, I explained why 0.0 ratting shouldn't be equal not even being compared to L4.



Once again you are doing a great job letting everyone know you have never been to 0.0 space. No average player is going to have a goddamn R64 moon towered up raking in profits for themselves. An average player in my alliance won't have any moon above an R16. The alliance mines those moons and uses profits to pay for fuel for holding the rest of the space we require to support a 6,000 man alliance, or super-capitals to help defend it.

My alliance, or most alliances, does not hand out free ships to people to fly. If you want a ship to fly you make ISK for it. You buy your ship and defend our space or try to take other peoples space. If you have the skills and fit your ship to an alliance standard you can be eligible for reimbursement for your losses paid for by moon income. This makes it so after insurance costs you will only lose 20-30 million ISK instead of losing 40-50 million ISK.

You are completely out of touch if you think that an average 0.0 alliance member sees R64 profits beyond "here we will help cushion your losses you suffered while defending these moons."

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:54:00 - [2543]
 

Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 18:54:13
Originally by: Qlanth
The problem with "this is only the first step!" is that if you take the first step in a weak, half-assed, almost "pre-nerfed" way then you will see a lot of people get fed up and leave before they can take the second step.

CCP has been really good lately about releasing things completely prenerfed and then wondering why everyone is completely underwhelmed by what they did (see: Black-Ops battleships, Tech 3 Cruisers) and then taking 6 months to un-nerf them.


As I said earlier:
Originally by: Kepakh

And that's the whole point here.
To understand wheter the system is working as intended you need a developed concept first. Something CCP has got not because they do things on the fly.

Considering the goals highlighted in dev blogs, Dominion is complete fail because they won't be achieved but you have to keep in mind that CCP often speaks in 'one day' time frame.

Wheter the changes are good or bad, working as intened or doing the contrary I can't say. As it is now, they mean only little change for current state of things and more will be depending on what changes will follow.

The system as it is currently designed is very flexible. You can turn 0.0 into grindfest as easily as you can make it more rewarding then current R64 moon mining.

What is the CCP intention I don't really know and we will have to wait for more dev blogs and until more stuff is released on test server.




Originally by: Tippia
In other words, you don't care whether Dominion will achieves the stated goals of CCP. So why are you even in this thread if you don't care about the topic being discussed?


I am discussing how EVE will be changed by Dominion.

Originally by: Tippia
People ratting in 0.0 won't be affected by these changes. Not good.

Only people in player controlled are a subject of changes.

Originally by: Tippia
The people Dominion was slated to bring out there will. Of course, since there's nothing in the patch to achieve this goal, they will stay in highsec.

Correct.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:54:00 - [2544]
 

Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:55:00 - [2545]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Also, because it's not Sunday night any more, it's time to start spamming the question again: YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M?
It is indeed increased risk to move around 0.0 as well as logistical challenge.


Guy in Motsu: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me buys a million rounds off market"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me flies 8j to the nearest station with any on market"

Guy in Motsu: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling. /me flies 6j to Jita and sells it all in half an hour...Nice, I can afford a Nightmare!"
Guy in AB-CDE: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling...oh wait, I just got ganked flying through 17j of nullsec to deliver all my money to market. This is a nightmare."

I don't claim that living in 0.0 is like the labours of Hercules, but even the most cursory glance at how you have to live out there will tell you that the logistics effort is considerable, even for someone who isn't tasked with keeping the POS infrastructure up and running.

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Also, because it's not Sunday night any more, it's time to start spamming the question again: YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


Yes, but that must include the corp level reward (i.e. the moon goo) after you have removed the operative costs.


That's not true at all. If we say that 0.0 is allowed to be bad for individuals because the group income is good, then you're making it such that the optimal strategy is to hold moons in 0.0 and spend all your time in highsec missioning. That's stupid. 0.0 needs to be better on the individual level, not just the alliance level. I agree that moons need to get bludgeoned half to death with a nerfbat, but even if they stay at their current income level, 0.0 still needs to be better for individuals trying to earn cash than anywhere in highsec.

Originally by: Verone
The fact of the matter is, giving too much reward too soon would give the game's economy a massive heart attack. Of course CCP are going to implement it with pre-nerfed rewards. Its going to be monitored, tweaked, worked on, fiddled with and monitored some more before they're happy with it. Something this big as a change in game isn't going to be complete overnight, its part of the core of the game.


I get what you're saying, and I don't even completely disagree, but the problem is that we've seen this kind of thing from CCP before. They never go back and fix it half as quickly as they should, and we're left with a whole bunch of really cool, totally unusable content for years. Bombs came in in Rev 2, summer '07, and didn't see use until after Apocrypha because CCP pre-nerfed them and didn't give them a serious fix for two years. Black ops, Trinity, late 07, the ones CCP explicitly stated that they pre-nerfed intentionally, still not usable for very much above the level of comedy ops. And let's not forget such CCP success stories as combat boosters, epic arcs, COSMOS, or the current awful sovereignty mechanics that it took them five years to fix. I have very little faith in CCP's ability to see and fix their errors in a short period of time if it's not done in advance of the first implementation. Right now, they're replacing a broken system with another broken system, and the fixes are vague wishlists as far as I can tell. You'll forgive me if I'm not optimistic.

And of course, YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Alekanderu
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:56:00 - [2546]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Still waiting....

Still a bad question.

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.
Ratting is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
Mining is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
WHing is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.


are you aware of these facts:

1) most 0.0 systems have really poor truesec and/or amount of belts, which makes ratting there substantially less profitable than, for example, running missions in highsec
2) ratting in a good truesec system with plenty of belts and no competition will net your more isk/hour than mission running, but this applies to literally like 5% of all 0.0 at MOST, and it quickly becomes unprofitable even there as soon as enough people do it
3) mining in 0.0 is completely worthless unless you run 10 macroed accounts
4) missions, unlike ratting, is an infinite resource without competition, whereas ratting is a highly limited resource that quickly becomes unprofitable with increased competition

because it doesn't seem like you are!

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:58:00 - [2547]
 

Edited by: Nobani on 09/11/2009 19:01:00
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11
CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.


Post under your main please.

So YES or NO: 0.0 space should be more profitable (in isk/h) than Empire due to the logistics, risk, and cost of maintaining sov?

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:59:00 - [2548]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Niamota Olin
I've been down in 0.0 for nearly a year, I cant stand ratting or mining there boring as hell. If I have a bad month I go to empire for my isk as its low risk. I think CCP believe that we enjoy having to farm isk or something to pvp....

No wonder you found it boring, it seems you didn't do any exploration.

Hey, did you know dominion will be a huge exploration boost?


Lol, no it won't.

Unless you call exploration:
>> Jumping into upgraded system.
>> Drop a Deep Space Probe
>> Run scan
>> Find anom!

A whole 10 seconds of exploration!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:59:00 - [2549]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.
Moon mining won't affect the individuals Dominion was slated to bring out into 0.0.
Quote:
Ratting is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
Ratting won't affect the individuals Dominion was slated to bring out into 0.0 and remains untouched in the patch.
Quote:
Mining is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
Mining isn't profitable in 0.0 to begin with, and will be even less so with Dominion.
Quote:
WHing is more profitable in 0.0 than in high sec if you're doing it right.
WHing won't affect the individuals Dominion was slated to bring out into 0.0.

There is nothing in Dominion that effects the goal of bringing people into 0.0. Without this influx, the goal of alliance compression won't be met. Without the compression, there won't be room for more alliances out there, even among those who wants to get into the game regardless of the Dominion changes.

That's why it's a good question: is it CCPs intent not to provide any incentive to bring people out into nullsec, and thus fail to reach any of the stated goals of the sov revamp?

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.09 19:02:00 - [2550]
 

Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Honest Smedley

Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.


And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.

Not so much, no. Those jump bridges networks and throw away cap fleets aren't materializing out of nowhere... and your alliance isn't funding them off the backs of people grinding out missions in Irjunen. If you aren't personally benefitting from the silly money your alliance is rolling in as much as you think you should, consider finding a new alliance.

Did you think the titan conga line came out of an Irjunen-based LP store?


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