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Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:20:00 - [2491]
 

EUREKA! IVE GOT IT!

Lets all whine and complain about how CCP is going to ruin null sec space and comment on each others whine posts instead of proposing ways they can FIX the train wreck we are seeing with the costs being so high in null sec and there being little to no rewards for the risk of being out there. Lets continue to dabble among ourselves in the unproductive way and really show them that no idea we have should ever be taken seriously. Brilliant.

Now if we are all quite finished highlighting the ways Null sec will suck if the current proposal by them goes through lets think of ways we can give them to FIX this issue like my post here Linkage or maybe even this post here Linkage

or any on of other ideas people have put up that no one is commenting on helping to flesh out so that CCP might be able to use it TO FIX WHAT YOUR *****ING ABOUT!

am i the only one seeing this trend or are there at least a few others seeing this pointless bickering going on? Cause if i am ill sit back and at least get plenty drunk off of all this wine you guys are posting. perhaps that will numb the sting from ccp's plan...rofl.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:23:00 - [2492]
 

Originally by: Tamahra


not only that, i fear. CCP is in a real danger to pull their own NGE now, if they mess up with Dominion.

As of now, its required to delay the expansion and put it back to the drawingboard. Once the harm is done, it is done. but they can still turn the wheel and come up with something good.

When theres such a huge outcry from the playerbase, you as a developer MUST react to it.

Pulling it through, as it is planned now, goes against the vast majority of the goons and other huge alliances. And that would be an NGE.


Fixed that for you.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:23:00 - [2493]
 

Originally by: Graalum

you forget that anoms are ****

And you sir, is forgetting that:
1) anomalies are independent on true sec status
2) anomalies rewards scales up with upgrade level
3) no one has seen those anomalies yet so nor there are numbers on how much they should yield

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:31:00 - [2494]
 

Originally by: Tamahra
Edited by: Tamahra on 09/11/2009 17:16:20
not only that, i fear. CCP is in a real danger to pull their own NGE now...
Quote:
And that would be an NGE.

You keep using that acronym. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Tamahra, I played through NGE, and the proposed changes in Dominion are no NGE.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:31:00 - [2495]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 09/11/2009 17:33:20
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Graalum
you forget that anoms are ****

And you sir, is forgetting that:
1) anomalies are independent on true sec status
2) anomalies rewards scales up with upgrade level
3) no one has seen those anomalies yet so nor there are numbers on how much they should yield
We know that, at best, they will be no more valuable than a high-sec L4 agent, except not infinitely scalable, risk-free and uninterruptible the way a high-sec agent is.
Quote:
The best income? Why aren't you pulling out things like moon mining, cap production, scam or trading then?
Because what people moving out will have to relate to is L4s. Because moon mining isn't something that they will see in their personal wallets. Because the supposed "draw" of nullsec will be the relationship between these two: will people see more ISK in their wallets in relation to the effort they have to put in compared to what they could do if they stayed in highsec? If you had actually understood the question, rather than calling it stupid because you didn't, this would already have been abundantly clear to you.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:37:00 - [2496]
 

Originally by: Verone
All the 0.0 alliances are ****ing and moaning because they've got huge amounts of space, in some cases 5 or 6 regions. This is going to force even the largest of alliances to downsize their claims to space and focus on one region.


really? how so?

Quote:
It's also going to mean you're going to see smaller alliances forming treaties and pacts, claiming constellations in the same region because they can't afford to claim a whole region to themselves, and working together to form a coalition that holds a region between it.
It costs nothing but your ships and a crude jump bridge network to control a region.

[q]It's actually going to make 0.0 politics more interesting again and promote claiming space to actually use it, rather than land grabbing for e-peen purposes. Taking a constellation is going to be something that's considered, pondered upon, checked out, scouted, looked over and decided upon, then the invasion takes place if its deemed both profitable and tactically advantageous to take and own the space.
we actually use the only valuable things in our space (the moons). lol at the belts and asteroids. We don't claim space fro the lulz, we do it for the fuel bonuses.


Quote:
What this means is that an alliance will have to take space, and hold it for a considerable amount of time, upgrading along the way to ensure its going to be useful to them as a long term investment. This is effectively causing space to seem much larger in terms of territorial claim, purely because the costs of owning and maintaining space are massively magnified in comparison to current mechanics.

which part of upgrading it makes it more useful? the part where it costs more or the part where everyone will still just JC to empire to run l4's?


Quote:
Awesome idea.



**** you're dumb.

Kanoubi
Amarr
the muppets
Muppets Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:39:00 - [2497]
 

Originally by: Lolion Reglo
EUREKA! IVE GOT IT!


You´re my eyes , my consumer rights of posting an opinion, my forum god!

Please everyone ! .. stop posting , this man/woman is our voice.

Aleluia brother!

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:39:00 - [2498]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Also, because it's not Sunday night any more, it's time to start spamming the question again: YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


Yes, but that must include the corp level reward (i.e. the moon goo) after you have removed the operative costs.



Profit includes all costs and income, including moon goo funded reimbursement programs, fleet losses defending your space/moon goo, etc.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:41:00 - [2499]
 

Originally by: Tippia
We know that, at best, they will be no more valuable than an L4 agent, except not infinitely scalable the way the agent is.

Seems ok.

Originally by: Tippia

Because moon mining isn't something that they will see in their personal wallets.


Someone should hire you and put you in a dictor. Sadly so many spoiled pricks fly around and they are given caps for free and their BS, HAC, BC and ceptros reimbursted.
I guess you think someone is running L4 to run the reimburstement programs...

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:42:00 - [2500]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat
Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 09/11/2009 15:32:44
Originally by: Kepakh
Search pages 25-60, it is burried somewhere there.

Hmm, you mean http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=25#723 this? Because that's the only dev response to it at all, and it's not an answer but rather just a weak avoidance of the question

get out stop trolling I've read the thread and know it hasn't been answered and nobody's gonna fall for it and be dumb enough to reread 35 pages

so stop feeling so great about how you're ~the puppetmaster~ because you're not nearly as smart as you think, okay, well, bye


Yep, that's it. Perfect answer for stupid question of such type.
Even further in the thread Chronotis(?) admits that CCP is aware of high profitability of L4.

0.0 PVE is more profitable than doing the same thing in high sec.

- better belt rats
- better ore to mine
- better mission rewards
- better exploration sites


Risk vs reward is a myth.


my mission rewards in axdx are outstanding, and triple battlecruiser spawns are the best

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:42:00 - [2501]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Everyone's agreed that it's an awesome idea. The vision you outline is a great one, and CCP, 0.0 players, and empire-dwellers all agree on that. The problem isn't the idea, it's the execution. In order for what you propose to actually happen, the system upgrades have to be big and useful, or else alliances won't stop sprawling. Right now, the upgrades are small and crap, so nobody cares and nothing will change. It's a shame, really.


Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Random quotes and retorts, etc...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
you know i expected better from you tbvfh.


Mikal, I'm happy to disappoint, and I'll give a response along with a response to the quotes above.

CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding, and all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.

This change to mechanics isn't going to happen overnight with the launch of Dominion. It's a massive overhaul of how Eve operates, and it instantaneously affects TENS OF THOUSANDS of players the second Dominion goes live. It's not a case of changing the slot layout of a ship, or tweaking its stats. It's potentially game breaking on the most fundamental of levels.

The fact of the matter is, giving too much reward too soon would give the game's economy a massive heart attack. Of course CCP are going to implement it with pre-nerfed rewards. Its going to be monitored, tweaked, worked on, fiddled with and monitored some more before they're happy with it. Something this big as a change in game isn't going to be complete overnight, its part of the core of the game.

Its going to take time to balance it and watch to see how Eve reacts to it. This kind of thing is so large that its impossible to test on a development server. It has to be done in live play, because its not possible to simulate the effects of play on the scale of TQ on any of the test servers. The only thing that they can do is make sure the mechanics work fully.

0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out. Its just going to take time to implement and the best way to do it is by pre-nerfing the rewards until the dust settles around the launch of Dominion and CCP can see how alliances react to the new mechanics.

I wouldn't be surprised if over time the rewards get better, but for now all they're doing is playing it safe to make sure that they don't totally butt**** the game's economy by pouring trillions of ISK into the market because they made a bad call on the rewards for sov.

Sadly, people are more intent on spitting their lollipops out, whining like spoiled kids and demanding answers rather than getting their heads together and deciding how best to use the mechanics.

Its laughable to be honest, when so many have complained about the sov system.

This is something so large its not gonna be fixed overnight, it'll take time to adjust and tweak and there's nothing wrong with playing it safe so the game's economy doesn't get shafted in the process.

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:42:00 - [2502]
 

I think some of the best idea's have been NEW ways to get income out of nulsec, not just rehashed crap like whats put in at the moment.

Great woopey doo beter rats, more ore... could it get any more boring....?

Someone else has grazed on this, 0.0 was supposed to be the pvp playground, what players do and enforce down here is how it works, no neut stations no sentries no sec... just what you got vs what they got. Granted it meant the big got very big and scare the crap out alot of the rest of us, but its not stagnant, systems are changing hands constantly though its just slow, but slow imho actually worked, it meant you couldn't get caught utterly screwed after a day or so, there was always the chance of a good fight to resolve it...

Now of course sov is handled by an omnipotent bank manager who takes large amounts of isk... for what exactly??? Before the isk to sustain was clearly visible, its pos fuel JB fuel etc. Now its gonna just be some brain dead isk sink game mechanic... great thinking ccp.

This is just going to end up with lots of unclaimed space as the old big alliances use the uncyno'd space that is abundant to masacre the unsuspecting.
This is a warning to all those who are thinking of grabbing a few flags and an upgrade pos. Every alliance I know of has been practicing dropping dreads to pop noob sov grabbers, just so you know.

ccp want 0.0 to be used more, that was a truely worthwhile goal, but whoever came up with this crock of **** idea needs to get fired, as it clearly isnt playin to what anyone wants.
Old alliances arent happy (that was a certainty anyway)
But even many new alliances now see the flaws, just because you took away a huge alliance's claims to sovereignty... you really think that'll stop them still claiming huge area's of space?
And think about this.. there you are just a day away from final upgrades on a system, you've lasted long enough... oh crap what a coincidence thats just when the big bad old landlords show up.. why, because its eve nature to kick em not only where it hurts but at the worst time for maximum loss.

But back to trying to be useful... the biggest issues seem to be the double whammy of moon mins being nerfed while tagging on a HUGE bill at the same time.

Someone had an idea for planetary taxes of an upgraded system.. perhaps said taxes could directly reduce the maintenance costs?
Introduce some form of reduced system cost if there say in the same constelation, that would encourage small close nit area's.
Have costs of one or two systems low, but have a multiplier for say a whole constelation, but to negate the alt alliance effect say allow one free cyno or JB per constelation.

I dunno, but please stop and think ccp, this expansion is gonna **** lots of initially. And once the dust has settled and many have died trying to get into 0.0 and failing even more so will be let down. I feel most sorry for those who commited more RL cash into investing into nulsec as it was, for all that to now be defunct, its hardly an incentive to invest any additional money into EVE beyond subscription when you not only change the goal posts, but rewrite the whole thing.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:46:00 - [2503]
 

Originally by: Graalum
my mission rewards in axdx are outstanding, and triple battlecruiser spawns are the best

Good for you. I am quite sure there will be enough happy people to jump on those anomalies.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:51:00 - [2504]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Graalum

you forget that anoms are ****

And you sir, is forgetting that:
1) anomalies are independent on true sec status
2) anomalies rewards scales up with upgrade level
3) no one has seen those anomalies yet so nor there are numbers on how much they should yield



i have done anoms before, these are not new and ccp has not stated that they intend to change them

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:55:00 - [2505]
 

Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 09/11/2009 17:55:25
I forgot to add this:

The PVP playground that you guys keep complaining about being changed is really not being changed. Hell, I'd say its being improved. No more long-ass seiges over towers with dreads. (Not saying that dreads won't ever hit the green-siege-button-of-doom), more targets, etc, you get my point.

The fact that pure PVP alliances will actually have difficulty holding space: too bad. None of what they are changing is going to bankrupt you. Sure, you won't have Cyno-jammers every system or Jump Bridges, but overall, its not hurting you that badly. Your just taking the worst case senario and applying it to every system. Guess what? Your not going to homogenize systems, because if you do, well...LOL....*facepalm*

--Isaac

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:55:00 - [2506]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tippia
We know that, at best, they will be no more valuable than an L4 agent, except not infinitely scalable the way the agent is.
Seems ok.
Not if it's going to attract highsec dwellers, since it means they won't have the same infinite resources to pull ISK from. I.e. they'll get less ISK if they move out of highsec.
Quote:
Originally by: Tippia
Because moon mining isn't something that they will see in their personal wallets.
Someone should hire you and put you in a dictor. Sadly so many spoiled pricks fly around and they are given caps for free and their BS, HAC, BC and ceptros reimbursted.
I guess you think someone is running L4 to run the reimburstement programs...
I'm already in a dictor. As for a reimbursement scheme, it doesn't particularly matter: if they're getting their PvP ships replaced, then their personal ship loss will be the same as in highsec… except for the PvE ships lost to reds; the implants lost no matter what the reason; the time lost not grinding ISK (which translates into ISK lost)…

…and they'll end up with less money in their wallet than if they had stayed in highsec. And that's assuming there is a reimbursement program (which I'm guessing is your argument for how moongoo profits end up in individual persons' wallets) — if there isn't, then they'll have a lot less in their personal wallets.

Either way, they'll earn less and lose more — not a brilliant scheme for attracting people.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:55:00 - [2507]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Tamahra


not only that, i fear. CCP is in a real danger to pull their own NGE now, if they mess up with Dominion.

As of now, its required to delay the expansion and put it back to the drawingboard. Once the harm is done, it is done. but they can still turn the wheel and come up with something good.

When theres such a huge outcry from the playerbase, you as a developer MUST react to it.

Pulling it through, as it is planned now, goes against the vast majority of the goons and other huge alliances. And that would be an NGE.


Fixed that for you.


maybe. on the other side its quite normal that a good number of posts in this thread is from dem members of the huge alliance, since they are the ones who are affected the most.

And they are the backbone of Eve. Even if the majority of the population is living in high sec, its the 0.0 space that keeps most players hooked to eve online, because they know theres something bigger beyond the boundaries of empire space.

This knowledge alone, and to have the possibility of being part of all the 0.0 warfare one day, is a major hook. Sooooo, its important for CCP to not mess it up.


teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:56:00 - [2508]
 

Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 17:57:25
Quote:
Sadly, people are more intent on spitting their lollipops out, whining like spoiled kids and demanding answers rather than getting their heads together and deciding how best to use the mechanics.


Alliances will adapt and I'm sure are already planning on exploiting the game mechanics to the fullest. What you don't understand is all that the giant cluster**** that has been proposed will do is reduce sov claimed systems. That's it... No more people in 0.0 than there are now and even less reason for war in 0.0. They will adapt to a less interesting future instead of what CCP had promised earlier. That's what people are complaining about. Not some "we fear change" mantra that you have mistakenly arrived at.

Quote:
The fact that pure PVP alliances will actually have difficulty holding space: too bad.


It's so hard to defend something that no one wants. Rolling Eyes

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:58:00 - [2509]
 

Originally by: Kanoubi
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
EUREKA! IVE GOT IT!


You´re my eyes , my consumer rights of posting an opinion, my forum god!

Please everyone ! .. stop posting , this man/woman is our voice.

Aleluia brother!


Finally someone!...rofl.

Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Everyone's agreed that it's an awesome idea. The vision you outline is a great one, and CCP, 0.0 players, and empire-dwellers all agree on that. The problem isn't the idea, it's the execution. In order for what you propose to actually happen, the system upgrades have to be big and useful, or else alliances won't stop sprawling. Right now, the upgrades are small and crap, so nobody cares and nothing will change. It's a shame, really.


Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Random quotes and retorts, etc...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
you know i expected better from you tbvfh.


Mikal, I'm happy to disappoint, and I'll give a response along with a response to the quotes above.

CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding, and all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.

This change to mechanics isn't going to happen overnight with the launch of Dominion. It's a massive overhaul of how Eve operates, and it instantaneously affects TENS OF THOUSANDS of players the second Dominion goes live. It's not a case of changing the slot layout of a ship, or tweaking its stats. It's potentially game breaking on the most fundamental of levels.

The fact of the matter is, giving too much reward too soon would give the game's economy a massive heart attack. Of course CCP are going to implement it with pre-nerfed rewards. Its going to be monitored, tweaked, worked on, fiddled with and monitored some more before they're happy with it. Something this big as a change in game isn't going to be complete overnight, its part of the core of the game.

Its going to take time to balance it and watch to see how Eve reacts to it. This kind of thing is so large that its impossible to test on a development server. It has to be done in live play, because its not possible to simulate the effects of play on the scale of TQ on any of the test servers. The only thing that they can do is make sure the mechanics work fully.

0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out. Its just going to take time to implement and the best way to do it is by pre-nerfing the rewards until the dust settles around the launch of Dominion and CCP can see how alliances react to the new mechanics.

I wouldn't be surprised if over time the rewards get better, but for now all they're doing is playing it safe to make sure that they don't totally butt**** the game's economy by pouring trillions of ISK into the market because they made a bad call on the rewards for sov.

Sadly, people are more intent on spitting their lollipops out, whining like spoiled kids and demanding answers rather than getting their heads together and deciding how best to use the mechanics.

Its laughable to be honest, when so many have complained about the sov system.

This is something so large its not gonna be fixed overnight, it'll take time to adjust and tweak and there's nothing wrong with playing it safe so the game's economy doesn't get shafted in the process.



I actually didn't realize that aspect. Your right however i still think the price of sovernty is still a little step and think they should lower it for the sake of making it easier for people to access that space and use the upgrades mentioned. read my post for what i mean. Linkage

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 17:59:00 - [2510]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Graalum
my mission rewards in axdx are outstanding, and triple battlecruiser spawns are the best

Good for you. I am quite sure there will be enough happy people to jump on those anomalies.


All those empire dwellers who have never set foot in nullsec will be dyinggggg to come out to run these anomalies. Just have to find some space, not get killed by your neighbors, pay your large monthly bill, wait months for your system to be fully upgrades, and then hooray they can go back to making the same isk for hour they made safely in empire! Wow what a bargain that is. But oh wait, a cloaker has come to the system, isk drops, a local pvp gang comes to system, isk drops, the system starts getting crowded, isk drops, you also spend most of your time scanning and warping back to new anomalies slowing it down a bit, and oops you have 10 people in system and you guys keep warping to anomaly that someone is already at.

All that work and ships going boom to end up paying money to be worse off than you were.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:06:00 - [2511]
 

@Verone

CCP have gone from having a sov system to almost completely removing a sov system.

dont get me wrong I like the upgrades and its a good step in the right direction for longevity and survival in 0.0 i would love to give my full support to it but its a have a feature that should never be released to live test. THATS WHAT SISI is DESIGNED for. the continual rush for a 6 month turnover and a massive feature rush has broken the game. we are sick to death of half a feature and full promotion about its awesomeness.

sov now serves no purpose and what we actually wanted was Soverignty and to have a place to actually call "ours" we want somthing of value to fight over.

this new soverignty system isnt there to claim space its there to anchor a pos. CCP said about removing the costs from the pos spam but have replaced it with a convoluted mechanic and called it a sov change. a JB pos only has fuel to maintain and now theres a 2bil "fee" per jumpbridge pos ontop of the actual pos charging yourself to own space that noone actually owns :/ which **** came up with that. as already mentioned CONCORD fees in 0.0 ? lol !!

the Upgrade system IS good and IS everything we could wantand IS what you say and i have no doubts that it will be improved BUT CCP no longer have my trust. what they advertise does NOT reflect ingame. 1 system supporting 10-15 people out of an entire alliance ? deraded if youy DONT FARM, barely on par with EMPIRE ? thats broken before it even starts. I DONT want epic rewards from the get go but id at least expect sustainability.

flag+hub purely to anchor a pos :/ thats an epic joke.

capture the pointless flag is an outdated concept

tl;dr
Upgrades = good (just not balanced right)
hubs for sov = ludicrous

Uphill Gardner
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:06:00 - [2512]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: NxN
Yeah, this is really bad. It shifts the whole thing entirely.


I WANT TO HOLD THE SYSTEM BECAUSE I CAN DEFEND IT!!!

Not because I can pay damn bills...




Really get a grip CCP.


You don't have to hold sovereignty over all space you want to control. Defending it will be quite a challenge actually.


Why? Who in their right mind will haul freighter 40+ jumps into 0.0 few systems away from 200 dread fleet? Who would be even stupid enough to try and anchor that thing, and then pay billions for a promise of few anomalies in the system? Do you know how much it takes to make 40 jumps with freighter?? With gatecamps along the way? Yeah, I', betting those small alliances wanting their piece of 0.0 will have a blast!

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:07:00 - [2513]
 

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Still waiting....

Brunaburh
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:16:00 - [2514]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
You forget the fact that a single solar system will not sustain 50 active pilots, the current incarnation of the upgrades will support maybe 25 very active players. Even then, a single solar system, devoting all your time to farming isk to maintain it - something just does not seem right about that in context of the larger plan that dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access easier for smaller entities - not time and cost prohibitive. Forget the fact if this small theoretical alliance should have to ever defend the system, they will run out of isk so fast that they will have no choice but to leave 0.0.


One of the things that keeps confusing me about this thread is that everyone talks as if:
(a) they need SOV in every system they use...
and
(b) they need to keep SOV in every system they have now.

So an "upgraded" system doesn't support 50-100? We don't know yet (but I doubt it)

Is there not a jump gate to a system next door? or two, or three?

This is an ISK sink for the mega-alliances that are just sitting on huge swaths of space, to force them to either contract in occupied space or turn all their PvP kings into PvE pages. So you don't get to hold a whole region as SOV space -who says you can't fly through and kill anyone trying to move in?

So you can't own every system, and you don't want any old enemy moving in next door? Heard of the concept of fleet ops and roams? Aren't treaties coming soon(tm)? Gee, you have to DO something rather than sit in your secure solar system, buried behind tens of SOV systems, earning ISK off your moon goo?

As for smaller alliances, since when have they ever moved into SOV 0.0 and set up shop on day 1? There is ALWAYS logistics before action, except for those of you who just joined the big 0.0 alliances as n00b players and never knew anything else.

I look at those numbers and say crap - that's a lot of money, just like the rest of you. Difference is my main toon is in a small alliance looking to move, and we are used to controlling small amounts of space and roaming into other people's territory, and running our own reaction chains. We can almost afford to have a fully upgraded 0.0 SOV system, based on those numbers, and still have isk in the wallet. Holding one or two primary systems and roaming outwards isn't new or news to us, and I'm sure as heck going to go to another system to rat if there are already 10 guys going at it. DUH. I don't expect that every system I fly into is likely to be blue. DUH, that's life in 0.0.

THAT'S the 0.0 life CCP is going to introduce that to the mega-alliances, who won't have tons of "safe" 0.0 to rat and plex and mine and moon mine in - because it will cost too much. Whine away, or give me all you stuff and quit. Here's my prediction three weeks out:

Whiner mega alliances will leave SOV 0.0 and wreak havoc in NPC 0.0 and empire for a while, then slowly fade into meaninglessness as they did not adapt.

Practical mega alliances will contract their SOV into the important systems (major moons, jump bridges, really low true sec status, etc) and (when available) have treaties with others in the neighboring systems to maintain security.

Smaller alliances will (if they are smart) wait out the initial panic, then start examining what's happening with SOV, where do they want to go, and start contacting their future "neighbors" to determine if that's a good move.

Non-SOV alliances will continue to operate status quo.

Empire will continue to operate status quo.

NPC 0.0 will get very busy for a while - apparently with angry goonfleets taking out their frustration with CCP.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:16:00 - [2515]
 

Originally by: NickSuccorso
Originally by: Tesal
Here is what is missing in this. You will still have access to neighboring systems, that will still have the same true sec, and you will still be able to rat in them just as you did before, its just that you won't have Sov there, and you will have to fight people if they show up. You won't be under a cyno jammer with jump bridges all the time, you are going to have to venture out. Once you are out there, people will kill you.


So...why bother changing the sov system at all then, if the big alliances are still gonna use large amounts of territory other than their "official" holdings? Just because it isn't marked on the influence map, and doesn't have a cyno jammer, doesn't mean that some little empire alliance that wants to reach for the stars is going to challenge for it. They'd just get crushed, and they know it, because damnit we need to use this lousy space anyway because there isn't enough room in our super upgraded home systems to support everyone. Granted the hypothetical person is only going to make 20 million isk/hour after 2 hours of grooming, but he's going to take that because it beats sitting docked in station spinning his Rifter with his BS5 character.


They will get crushed, but the labor needed to crush them is much higher now because they can immediately get a cyno jammer and a jump bridge. Once that happens, people will start to creep into the cracks of space that are left open. There is now at least a chance. Some people will claim space just to start fights too. And if ten people claim space at the same time, you are left with a few months work just to clean them out with your giant blob. It will be a never ending struggle, and eventually the big guys will give up, and little guys will take over in the margins of space between the big guys where they don't care too much. So in the short term, I don't expect much difference at all, but you are going to have to fight people, you won't be able to have pets who are afk all the time, its going to be more like Fountain I expect, and a lot less like the Drone Regions. The pets are going to have to learn how to fight. You will need some vicious poodles. People who don't guard their space well are also going to have big problems.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:17:00 - [2516]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Not if it's going to attract highsec dwellers, since it means they won't have the same infinite resources to pull ISK from. I.e. they'll get less ISK if they move out of highsec.

I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.


Originally by: Tippia
I'm already in a dictor. As for a reimbursement scheme, it doesn't particularly matter: if they're getting their PvP ships replaced, then their personal ship loss will be the same as in highsec… except for the PvE ships lost to reds;

You losing ships while ratting? lulz


Originally by: Pointfive
All those empire dwellers who have never set foot in nullsec will be dyinggggg to come out to run these anomalies. Just have to find some space, not get killed by your neighbors, pay your large monthly bill, wait months for your system to be fully upgrades, and then hooray they can go back to making the same isk for hour they made safely in empire! Wow what a bargain that is. But oh wait, a cloaker has come to the system, isk drops, a local pvp gang comes to system, isk drops, the system starts getting crowded, isk drops, you also spend most of your time scanning and warping back to new anomalies slowing it down a bit, and oops you have 10 people in system and you guys keep warping to anomaly that someone is already at.

All that work and ships going boom to end up paying money to be worse off than you were.

Same as above:

Originally by: Kepakh

I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:20:00 - [2517]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 09/11/2009 18:21:10
Originally by: Kepakh
Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 16:55:04

You are comparing and mixing numerous things together.

1) As I hinted out, if you do the same thing in high sec and then you do it in 0.0, you get better rewards in 0.0. This works fine.
2) Availability of 0.0 PVE resources is unrelated.

In a matter of fact, 0.0 is more rewarding for the same activity. The issue is that you compare L4 to ratting which might be closest in procedure but completely different in mechanics.


I understand very well what you and all posters demanding the answer are asking but that does not make the question less stupid. If you want an answer, ask properly.


Why is risk vs reward a myth.

People ask for dangerous space yielding more rewards basing on simple fact that it is more dangerous. This logic as well as motivation is invalid.

I am in a system with cyno jammer and bubbled gates are perma camped by 200+ man blobs. I undock and warp to first belt. Should rats have higher bounties there just because I am in 0.0? Where is the risk? None, nada.

The only reason why you should get ever more rewarded is because of team work. Your alliance making an effort to claim a space, run a cyno jammer and perma camp gates. This is the only reason you ever get rewarded in compulsory PVP areas - not because of risk, but because of teamplay benefits.

Rising rewards and transfering exact same activities you can do in high sec space will only turn 0.0 into high sec with no Concord. That's just pointless.

0.0 needs another layer of benefits for 0.0 citizens. Introduce more alliance/corp level income like moon mining, taxes bound to sovereignty and tons of new tools how distribute those resources. This is what will actualy make 0.0 interesting and diverse.



You have obviously never been in 0.0 space or tried to make money there. Cyno Jammers are there not to protect the average person running around trying to make ISK to buy a ship. They are there to protect logistics (jumpbridges) or to protect R64 moons. No one uses a capital ship to disrupt mining, ratting, or exploring unless they are heinously rich.

Also I have never been in a system with 200+ people that wasn't the focus of a war. My alliance on average has 500-600 people online (assuming there are no critical ops) and these people are spread over most of Delve and the rest of the galaxy doing whatever it is they do. The most people I have ever seen in a non-contested, non-empire system at once is probably in NOL- with 50-60 people in system, 45-50 of them docked and the rest moving in and out.

No one puts 200 blues and bubbles every gate to protect ratters. In fact I can't remember the last time anyone bubbled an entire gate to protect themselves from the possibility of a roaming gang. It is not reasonable and ends up disrupting the average player more than a gang that may or may not be coming.

No one perma camps a gate to protect ratters. The closest thing to a perma camp you will ever see is probably on the lowsec/0.0 border gates - but most roaming gangs don't start from lowsec. They start in other regions of 0.0

In a normal day in the system I normally base out of I see about 2 reds come through every hour. Most of these are just passing through but some of them are actually looking to kill some ratters. Of course you can't tell which is which so you need to stop what you are doing to get safe or else risk losing your ship but still preserving your ISK/hr

Or I could just run missions in high sec and be completely safe making the exact same amount.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:20:00 - [2518]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
...dont get me wrong I like the upgrades and its a good step in the right direction...


I'd like to point something out.

Originally by: Mikal Drey
...dont get me wrong I like the upgrades and its a good step in the right direction...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
...I like the upgrades and its a good step in the right direction...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
...its a good step in the right direction...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
...step in the right direction...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
...step in the right direction...


Originally by: Mikal Drey
...step...


One of many.

It's going to take a while, and the new system will adapt as time goes on, just like people will adapt to use it as it evolves.

Something is big as this doesn't just happen overnight. If CCP **** it up and give too much free ISK away, they're going to shaft the economy.

It just takes time is all, we Eve players are an unpredictable bunch and always find ways to do random things with the most basic of mechanics.




Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:25:00 - [2519]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tippia
Not if it's going to attract highsec dwellers, since it means they won't have the same infinite resources to pull ISK from. I.e. they'll get less ISK if they move out of highsec.

I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.


Originally by: Tippia
I'm already in a dictor. As for a reimbursement scheme, it doesn't particularly matter: if they're getting their PvP ships replaced, then their personal ship loss will be the same as in highsec… except for the PvE ships lost to reds;

You losing ships while ratting? lulz


Originally by: Pointfive
All those empire dwellers who have never set foot in nullsec will be dyinggggg to come out to run these anomalies. Just have to find some space, not get killed by your neighbors, pay your large monthly bill, wait months for your system to be fully upgrades, and then hooray they can go back to making the same isk for hour they made safely in empire! Wow what a bargain that is. But oh wait, a cloaker has come to the system, isk drops, a local pvp gang comes to system, isk drops, the system starts getting crowded, isk drops, you also spend most of your time scanning and warping back to new anomalies slowing it down a bit, and oops you have 10 people in system and you guys keep warping to anomaly that someone is already at.

All that work and ships going boom to end up paying money to be worse off than you were.

Same as above:

Originally by: Kepakh

I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers.
People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.



People are ratting in 0.0 despite of level 4 missions because they do not have multiple characters and if you are expected to be able to defend your space from hostiles you cannot be in Motsu running a storyline, you need to be ready in an instant.

0.0 is a terrible excuse for a "home" and the only reason people put up with it right now is the insane alliance-level profit from R64s that give tjhe ability for alliances to afford Titans/more Outposts to Sov4 R64 moons and the ability to PvP without penalty.

Static Kinetics
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.09 18:27:00 - [2520]
 

seems to me the only ppl that dont have a problem with this change is npc corp lvl 4 carebears who dont go to 0.0 now, and wont go to 0.0 with the new changes, but dont see that as a problem cuz they loves their lvl 4's. their arguments make it pretty obvious they have never been to 0.0 and dont know ****. "oh but but you can make so much on 0.0 lvl 4's sov space is littered with lvl 4 agents, and the mining is fantastic"


YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


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