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Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:40:00 - [2401]
 

Originally by: Sellmewarez
I think it should be pointed out that nerfing level 4's or moving them to lowsec is entirely the wrong direction to take.

It should be buffing lowsec and 0.0 rewards most of all so that people WANT to come out to that space to make ISK. Eve needs more money in the hands of players anyway, just take a look at the market now to where it was 8 months ago and you will see a massive drop in the prices because people are buying less ships due to no major 0.0 wars. That is crucial since it hurts the industrial side of eve.

Also, if i was to bet, in Dominion under the announced changes there will be an even greater chance that major wars are unlikely to happen because people will not be fighting over extra space far away from their home regions... simply because it won't be feasable or worth the effort to hold it themselves other than to hand it off to renters and hope they don't die horribly.

This expansion is just going to make eve more stale than it already is.


moving L4's to lowsec, means more mission runners getting popped by oppertunistic pirates which would equate to more ships going boom and more ships and equip needing to be bought, and would rename L4's to DANGEROUS instead of no-danger at all as they currently are seen.

The increased ships and equip demand would spawn higher need for minerals, which would increase profitability of mining, both lowsec and highsec ores, and make mining both in nullsec and highsec more valuable and the mining upgrades in nullsec even more demanded and needed.

JfG D00MSAYER
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:45:00 - [2402]
 

Who in hell pulled that numbers outa his fingers?
Even if u lower the cost for sov etc the upcoming sov-payment-system still sucks.

Looking at all the formulas u already need for this game (shield/cap charge rate, missile damage etc) it seems like u use that 20million per day per sov-system out of lazyness Laughing

In my opinion daily sov cost should be related to a (number of sov systems)/(alliance members) equation.
With this a small alliance can actually afford 2 sov systems and a rent to a bigger alliance without going broke after a month and a big alliance is actually able to afford the systems its members need to make a living.

I think the same easy math would help with cynojammers like: (cynojammed system)/(number of sov systems)
Means, having 1 cynojammed system in your alliances constellation just costs a bit, but if u try to cynojam every system concord will empty your wallet in a month. Having 1/4 of your sov systems cynojammed can be good enough maybe?

Primnproper
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:47:00 - [2403]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Primnproper

Come on CCP your not politicians answer the bloody question....


YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


Bloody question was answered already. Don't you like the answer? Stop asking stupid questions.


Where when how, cus I can't bloody see it and neither can anyone else, you warthog faced baffoon.

Its not hard all we want is a bloody answer from CCP to this simple question.

Sellmewarez
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:47:00 - [2404]
 

Edited by: Sellmewarez on 09/11/2009 13:53:38
Edited by: Sellmewarez on 09/11/2009 13:51:46
Edited by: Sellmewarez on 09/11/2009 13:47:48
Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Sellmewarez
I think it should be pointed out that nerfing level 4's or moving them to lowsec is entirely the wrong direction to take.

It should be buffing lowsec and 0.0 rewards most of all so that people WANT to come out to that space to make ISK. Eve needs more money in the hands of players anyway, just take a look at the market now to where it was 8 months ago and you will see a massive drop in the prices because people are buying less ships due to no major 0.0 wars. That is crucial since it hurts the industrial side of eve.

Also, if i was to bet, in Dominion under the announced changes there will be an even greater chance that major wars are unlikely to happen because people will not be fighting over extra space far away from their home regions... simply because it won't be feasable or worth the effort to hold it themselves other than to hand it off to renters and hope they don't die horribly.

This expansion is just going to make eve more stale than it already is.


moving L4's to lowsec, means more mission runners getting popped by oppertunistic pirates which would equate to more ships going boom and more ships and equip needing to be bought, and would rename L4's to DANGEROUS instead of no-danger at all as they currently are seen.

The increased ships and equip demand would spawn higher need for minerals, which would increase profitability of mining, both lowsec and highsec ores, and make mining both in nullsec and highsec more valuable and the mining upgrades in nullsec even more demanded and needed.


Directly nerfing playstyles is not going to win you any favours with your customer base and wont make eve a better game than it is. The ONLY way you can entice people to come out en-mass is by making the rewards greater than what they are currently doing. Buffing rewards in lowsec/0.0 is a nerf to high sec income in reality, it is just a stealth nerf and more diplomatic Wink

zelalot
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:48:00 - [2405]
 

Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Gefex
I know everyone, lets turn 0.0 into a massive grind fest for the individual then make alliances pay through the teeth for claiming space!

THEN, on top of that, lets not give alliances any way of making money at an alliance level.. genius.


how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!

Theirs hundereds of people i've met that LIKE GRINDING, they like mining and hanging out with people just chilling, and many many many want to move from high to nullsec for better ores, but dont because its not a nice place to go and is inaccessible, maybe if the bigger alliances will put out a call for small industrial corps etc, to do the grinding, they'll be able to overcome the grinding difficulty, and also maintain their PVP selves...

As CCP said, no longer will PvP war machines, be able to get along without having a carebear wing of their organization that needs to be defended while they grind away.


i too know a lot of people that like playing eve by grinding away.

Its a tough choice, we leave it the way it is and the blob alliances continue to have too much influence on how the game is played for a lot of people who want to pvp, or they try to eleviate the bottle neck and give everyone an even playing field.

Massive blob fleets are hell fun, small pvp fleets are also fun. But 1 day on a R64 means i can by my ship back and more, where are those that dont occupy a high end have to grind isk for pvp.

a few things, reduce an alliances dependance on a high end, reduce the cost of a ship or increase the bountys on ratting and plexing so that 1 ship loss for a small time pvper isnt a weeks worth of grinding whilst those on a high end blink an eye and have a new ship ready to go.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:49:00 - [2406]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
It's a fairly straightforward question, CCP.

That question makes no sense at all.
Should I be paid for each jump through 0.0 because it is more risky than jumping through high sec gate?
That is what you actualy ask.

Don't play dumb, no one suggested being paid per jump. But just to answer your troll-ish question: A sensible trader would indeed be paid indirectly for each risky jump, he would offset the risk by setting appropriate prices for the hauled goods.

It's all about risk/reward.

Primnproper
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:52:00 - [2407]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

It's a fairly straightforward question, CCP.


That question makes no sense at all.

Should I be paid for each jump through 0.0 because it is more risky than jumping through high sec gate?
That is what you actualy ask.


I thought you said a second ago that it had beeen answered now it makes no sense at all, oh wait thats right your a troll poluting the forums with meaningless posts that do nothing but get in the way of discussions....

And it makes perfect sense, should people be able to make more money in 0.0 using the various income sources available there or in highsec doing level 4s, easy question easy answer...

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:53:00 - [2408]
 

Originally by: JfG D00MSAYER
Who in hell pulled that numbers outa his fingers?
Even if u lower the cost for sov etc the upcoming sov-payment-system still sucks.

Looking at all the formulas u already need for this game (shield/cap charge rate, missile damage etc) it seems like u use that 20million per day per sov-system out of lazyness Laughing

In my opinion daily sov cost should be related to a (number of sov systems)/(alliance members) equation.
With this a small alliance can actually afford 2 sov systems and a rent to a bigger alliance without going broke after a month and a big alliance is actually able to afford the systems its members need to make a living.

I think the same easy math would help with cynojammers like: (cynojammed system)/(number of sov systems)
Means, having 1 cynojammed system in your alliances constellation just costs a bit, but if u try to cynojam every system concord will empty your wallet in a month. Having 1/4 of your sov systems cynojammed can be good enough maybe?


Have to agree with you 110% here, and that where im coming from, i have friends in 3 corps, but their all small corps 2-10 people in each, and we wanted to setup a small alliance and make a grab for 1 system after dominion and lock it down and call it our own, but at current prices thats insane, the way it is now looks to be more to cut back on large alliances, but does little to help the newcoming smaller alliances, as this was originally set out to be...

the complaint that big alliances would just make up a bunch of smaller alliances to capture systems is a bunch of BS, i mean realistically goons already doing it for other reasons (ganking), so why not make this change to give the little guys atleast a fighting chance at affording a system! I highly doubt that goon or one of the big ones is gonna make 9000 small alliances to capture 9000 systems its just not logistically possible or optimal for them.

If anything make it so that the discount costs are only for the first system to really make alt-alliances a pretty much useless practice (considering high cost of alliance setup, and logistical usefullness of hundreds of extra alliances just to hold cheap sov for no reason)

Gefex
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:54:00 - [2409]
 

Originally by: zelalot
Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Gefex
I know everyone, lets turn 0.0 into a massive grind fest for the individual then make alliances pay through the teeth for claiming space!

THEN, on top of that, lets not give alliances any way of making money at an alliance level.. genius.


how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!


i too know a lot of people that like playing eve by grinding away.


The problem isn't the grinding, its the fact that individuals grinding systems gives no way for the space holding alliance to make money to pay for the ludicrous upkeep costs.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 13:54:00 - [2410]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx

Don't play dumb, no one suggested being paid per jump. But just to answer your troll-ish question: A sensible trader would indeed be paid indirectly for each risky jump, he would offset the risk by setting appropriate prices for the hauled goods.

It's all about risk/reward.

I am not plying anything, the question is as dumb.

The question is not about whether you are trader or anything, it just asks if you should be paid just because you are in potentionaly more dangerous area.

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:03:00 - [2411]
 

Edited by: Lord Helghast on 09/11/2009 14:04:59
Originally by: Gefex
The problem isn't the grinding, its the fact that individuals grinding systems gives no way for the space holding alliance to make money to pay for the ludicrous upkeep costs.


I get your prob, the better rat spawns = more tax income for alliance/corp but when it comes to mining etc, theirs now direct route for the cash to get to the alliance... I guess in that way it will come down to corp fees and alliance fees etc, is my guess.

EDIT, and even at max upgrade thats only 10 extra rat spawns so not a huge bonus for the people or alliance, personally i actually wish they had made the max 20

zelalot
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:06:00 - [2412]
 

LOL - i just looked at the Balance of the "Master Wallet" (figure 1). WTB 10trillion please.

Seriously how is somone going to sustain PVP against that?

Iyotaka
Iyotaka Union
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:10:00 - [2413]
 

I guess the most difficult thing for most who are complaining is that they will have to change. When Exodus came out - I hated Eve, but kept playing because I had paid for it - and after a month or two, some tweaking by CCP it got to be fun again.

The next major patch was a repeat, hated it, learned it, I am still here... Basically, I have learned that one of the things that makes Eve the game it is - is because the rules do change - often drastically. Some call it nerfing - I know I do often enough - but either you accept that the Eve world turns itself upside down every now and then - and just play the game as it is, or you whine and whine and leave, or something in between.

It is fairly obvious that the game as it is now is broken. Where is the fun? Even the pvp is largely "grinding".

my two cents: the real leadership of the ¨powerblocks are making their plans, and they shall reform as needed. Nothing CCP does or does not do is going to change their leading positions. If it does they were not leaders but were just lucky in the old game.

Real leaders adapt to the field and make it work for them. Choices are made and executed. Noone who knows Eve well expects it to be what it was just because that is the way it was. Only the lazy, and rank whiners. Let them go.

I am very curious about what I am actually going to be upset about - as I remind myself than a POS tower at 90M isk, when exodus first came out, was thought to be an extremely high price - that there were be a max of 10 titans in game because of the difficulty of building them, and the cost, etc, etc..

* Cost has never been a barrier - but a motivator for inventive people to make the new rules work for them - while whiners only look back.

Sure I'll probably hate lots of the new features when EvE first comes up after patch day, but I am not going to let that stop me from learning how to play the game again - and hopefully find fun again.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:11:00 - [2414]
 

Originally by: zelalot
LOL - i just looked at the Balance of the "Master Wallet" (figure 1). WTB 10trillion please.
It's only $580,000. Pay up, you cheapskate. Razz

Otin Bison
Gallente
Bison Industrial Inc
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:11:00 - [2415]
 

Edited by: Otin Bison on 09/11/2009 14:14:18
A couple of things come to mind when reading through this. Especially as a small corp CEO with an eye to retruning to 0.0 and anticipating the upcoming release.

- Costs for a small industrial corp (under 25 people) are pretty rough
- Can't see any of the big alliances "allowing" us near them. There is no benifit I can see for them to change their current mode of "renting" to prevent griefing.
- Costs are not prohibitive for the currnet high-end moon holders. Even with a reduced profitability of moons, will still be more than enough to pay the bill and a lot more.

That's about it. I am still keenly interested in carving out a little piece of the pie for my corp but, i think I will have to wait and see how this plays out.

Side note for the folk currently in 0.0 alliances. Umm .. your personal ISK is only small because your alliance doesn't share any of the untold billions of passive ISK monthly from moons. And now they want a tax on the individual out there?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:16:00 - [2416]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 09/11/2009 14:23:32
Originally by: Otin Bison
Umm .. your personal ISK is only small because your alliance doesn't share any of the untold billions of passive ISK monthly from moons.


That's because my personal isk are my personal isk, FYI. They're for strategically useless expenditures, like buying a few hundred exotic dancers to put in my cargo during ops, or losing weirdly fitted guardians while flying solo.

My alliance (or corp, rather. Alliances don't have wallets as per game mechanic) is handing me free dreads, battleships, logistics, dictors however. Guess how those are being paid for..or the jump bridge infrastructure i can use for free. The fuel for my capitals that i get for free. All the little things that i get for free because in the end i'm one of the guys helping to sustain that stuff.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:16:00 - [2417]
 

Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Gefex
I know everyone, lets turn 0.0 into a massive grind fest for the individual then make alliances pay through the teeth for claiming space!

THEN, on top of that, lets not give alliances any way of making money at an alliance level.. genius.


how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!

How? They can make more money in safety in highsec. 0.0 literally offers them nothing because these upgrades are full of suck.

Uphill Gardner
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:17:00 - [2418]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Uphill Gardner

My suggestion was for CCp to implement more dispersed targets worth fighting for (and elected to leave then the details of implementation). How is this a doomed concept?

Fake edit: Oh, you read the "mining, ratting and plexing like the olden days", have you? See, that was an example of what motivated groups of people in the olden days of eve to make pew pew. It was not a suggestion how to make it in future.


If you didn't suggest making other 0.0 resources(rats, plexes, ore) more valuable to compete with moon mining as I thought, I don't understand what your point is then.


I suggested "for CCp to implement more dispersed targets worth fighting for (and elected to leave then the details of implementation)". I don't know how to be any clearer than that.

WaiKin Beldar
Tormentum Insomniae
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:17:00 - [2419]
 

Let´s keep it simple:

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running?

I am awaiting your answer, CCP

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:19:00 - [2420]
 

If CCP would change the upkeep cost away from just paying stupid isk to some completely ridiculous all-controlling entitfy in lawless 0.0 to something better, then there could be hope again.

For example they could introduce FUEL consumption.

Lightweight fuel pellets which are consumed by the different infrastructure things.

The fuel pellets should be that light that you can easily carry a month of it in a normal industrial ship like the iteron.

The fuel pellets should be manufacturable from a blueprint as well as being sold by npc in the beginning.

The fuel pellets should use some npc stuff to act as an isk sink. They should use also some of the gas from wormhole stuff to promote more interaction between the different parts of Eve. They should contain some 'normal' resources which can be harvested in normal Eve space.


THAT would be a much better way for the upkeep system than just paying isk. To whom should we pay it anyway and why?!

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:25:00 - [2421]
 

From the newest QEN - top used ships in Eve currently:

1) Hulk
2) Drake
3) Kestrel
4) Rifter
5) Retriever

So that are the ships which most of the people fly. I want to see how you go to 0.0 with that, capture and defend systems.

Somehow things aren't adding up.

Lord Helghast
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:36:00 - [2422]
 

Edited by: Lord Helghast on 09/11/2009 14:42:26
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Gefex
I know everyone, lets turn 0.0 into a massive grind fest for the individual then make alliances pay through the teeth for claiming space!

THEN, on top of that, lets not give alliances any way of making money at an alliance level.. genius.


how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!

How? They can make more money in safety in highsec. 0.0 literally offers them nothing because these upgrades are full of suck.


You see this is where your mistaken, i and about 30 other friends i know WANT TO MOVE TO NULLSEC, we're MINERS and ratters, and hell we'd love to move to lowsec, we hate mission running, and their are many more beyond the ones i know...

Just because you wouldnt move from L4 area to 0.0 because of ISk difference doesnt mean their arent many that want to. Give me an alliance that will offer security against pirates (Even basic security) and i'll be glad to come in and mine the **** out of their belts and help out with logistics and i know of many more that would as well...

just because grinding ore and the likes isnt your thang doesnt mean its not others, i'd love a nice deposite of hemorphite, especially if their are several max upgraded belts with extra belts and hidden belts i'd go frigging nuts.

For miners, this change would mean all the world, as a miner i'd love to move down, to this as its very attractive, to missioners, theirs still L5's in lowsec that beat L4's i believe so thats still a benefit. Miners and ratters both get improvements exploration get improvements, so i'm still seeing 0.0 as very attractive, i see it unattractive to giant alliances that want to try to keep huge swaths of space.

If goonswarm starts an industrial wing and invites down 100's of miners, to work under their wing mining minerals, taking ore/minerals for ships and a bit of isk, you'd be surprised how many people would want to come down from highsec...

l4's may pay the best, but the fact is their not fun and not very interactive with friends, and theirs more to life than ISK, theirs the experience of the game, and thats what draws alot of people or makes alot of people want to go to nullsec, but as of so far the best alliances tend to not want the carebears, atleast pre-dominion.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:40:00 - [2423]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
From the newest QEN - top used ships in Eve currently:

1) Hulk
2) Drake
3) Kestrel
4) Rifter
5) Retriever

So that are the ships which most of the people fly. I want to see how you go to 0.0 with that, capture and defend systems.

Somehow things aren't adding up.


Wrong. The most used is a group of rookie ships, shuttles and pods.

zelalot
Posted - 2009.11.09 14:40:00 - [2424]
 

Edited by: zelalot on 09/11/2009 14:40:26
Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Lord Helghast
Originally by: Gefex
I know everyone, lets turn 0.0 into a massive grind fest for the individual then make alliances pay through the teeth for claiming space!

THEN, on top of that, lets not give alliances any way of making money at an alliance level.. genius.


how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!



How? They can make more money in safety in highsec. 0.0 literally offers them nothing because these upgrades are full of suck.


You see this is where your mistaken, i and about 30 other friends i know WANT TO MOVE TO NULLSEC, we're MINERS and ratters, and hell we'd love to move to lowsec, we hate mission running, and their are many more beyond the ones i know...

Just because you wouldnt move from L4 area to 0.0 because of ISk difference doesnt mean their arent many that want to. Give me an alliance that will offer security against pirates (Even basic security) and i'll be glad to come in and mine the **** out of their belts and help out with logistics and i know of many more that would as well...

just because grinding ore and the likes isnt your thang doesnt mean its not others, i'd love a nice deposite of hemorphite, especially if their are several max upgraded belts with extra belts and hidden belts i'd go frigging nuts.


Accepting Applications hit me up in game Laughing

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:01:00 - [2425]
 

All the 0.0 alliances are ****ing and moaning because they've got huge amounts of space, in some cases 5 or 6 regions. This is going to force even the largest of alliances to downsize their claims to space and focus on one region.

It's also going to mean you're going to see smaller alliances forming treaties and pacts, claiming constellations in the same region because they can't afford to claim a whole region to themselves, and working together to form a coalition that holds a region between it.

It's actually going to make 0.0 politics more interesting again and promote claiming space to actually use it, rather than land grabbing for e-peen purposes. Taking a constellation is going to be something that's considered, pondered upon, checked out, scouted, looked over and decided upon, then the invasion takes place if its deemed both profitable and tactically advantageous to take and own the space.

It's way better and more immersive than saying "lol guys, lets go take Immensea for teh lulz!1"

What this means is that an alliance will have to take space, and hold it for a considerable amount of time, upgrading along the way to ensure its going to be useful to them as a long term investment. This is effectively causing space to seem much larger in terms of territorial claim, purely because the costs of owning and maintaining space are massively magnified in comparison to current mechanics.

Awesome idea.


Jackman Herzog
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:06:00 - [2426]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Gnulpie
From the newest QEN - top used ships in Eve currently:

1) Hulk
2) Drake
3) Kestrel
4) Rifter
5) Retriever

So that are the ships which most of the people fly. I want to see how you go to 0.0 with that, capture and defend systems.

Somehow things aren't adding up.


Wrong. The most used is a group of rookie ships, shuttles and pods.


The report left those out because they are not representative of what the average EVE player uses in actual gameplay.

Come to think of it, I did see this guy mining in his pod one time. True Story.

ju4n1ta
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:07:00 - [2427]
 

Originally by: Lord Helghast
how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!

How? They can make more money in safety in highsec. 0.0 literally offers them nothing because these upgrades are full of suck.


You see this is where your mistaken, i and about 30 other friends i know WANT TO MOVE TO NULLSEC, we're MINERS and ratters, and hell we'd love to move to lowsec, we hate mission running, and their are many more beyond the ones i know...

Just because you wouldnt move from L4 area to 0.0 because of ISk difference doesnt mean their arent many that want to. Give me an alliance that will offer security against pirates (Even basic security) and i'll be glad to come in and mine the **** out of their belts and help out with logistics and i know of many more that would as well...

just because grinding ore and the likes isnt your thang doesnt mean its not others, i'd love a nice deposite of hemorphite, especially if their are several max upgraded belts with extra belts and hidden belts i'd go frigging nuts.

For miners, this change would mean all the world, as a miner i'd love to move down, to this as its very attractive, to missioners, theirs still L5's in lowsec that beat L4's i believe so thats still a benefit. Miners and ratters both get improvements exploration get improvements, so i'm still seeing 0.0 as very attractive, i see it unattractive to giant alliances that want to try to keep huge swaths of space.

If goonswarm starts an industrial wing and invites down 100's of miners, to work under their wing mining minerals, taking ore/minerals for ships and a bit of isk, you'd be surprised how many people would want to come down from highsec...

l4's may pay the best, but the fact is their not fun and not very interactive with friends, and theirs more to life than ISK, theirs the experience of the game, and thats what draws alot of people or makes alot of people want to go to nullsec, but as of so far the best alliances tend to not want the carebears, atleast pre-dominion.


Just to get few things straight:
- There is no security in 0.0. If you're not able to mine in low.sec you will die mining in 0.0. The best you can hope for is gang to chase attackers away, maybe kill few if they are stupid, but your barge/hauler will die regardless.
- If you put 100 miners in a 0.0 system all mining, rest assured spies will leak your location and you will get attacked and there is nothing you can do against that except hide (and if you do that you're not mining, are ya?)
- Goons will love your 30 man corp, contact them ingame. Admittance fee will probably be reduced because you're such a swell fella.
- Don't forget that 0.0 is... well... 0.0. Refined mins cost less there (even less ISK for you), haulers get ganked on empire and region chokepoints (unless you use rorq or JF, then rorq/JF will get ganked on the way to/from empire), it's not easy to get replacement ship/modules/ammo when you die. And most of all, hauling ore for 30 man hulk gang is not fun at all. Especially if you live 40+ jumps into 0.0 (where the good ore is).
- your 30 man hulk gang will clean out an entire system on few hours (entire system, not just highends). Then what? Wait for respawn? Move to another system (probably further away from outpost)?

I can understand how you feel because I started when Heladas mining guide was top reading for ISK making. It sucked back then (also not as much) and it still sucks today (a lot more than it used to).

And don't forget, now you'll have to pay sov bill as well. Does it still sounds like phun?

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:08:00 - [2428]
 

As I think about this perhaps decreasing the the cost across the board is not the answer.
Well yes and no.

In order to get SOV 4 alliances where forced to drop 3 stations per constellation
Now that same mechanism is going to bankrupt them.

So perhaps CCP would be better served if the alliances got a discount for having that 3 third station in the constellation. Say full price for 1 and 2 station in a constellation and if they drop 3 they are given something for free.

THis is another way of saying stay together it costs less but if you are spread out it will cost you ALOT more.

You could also take it even further by extending discounts to a entire constellation.
This would encourage an alliance to develop that constellation.

The rest is maybe.....
I suppose you could take it even further by saying costs change based on distance from the capital if you needed to, basically the farther away from the core you get the higher the cost on some things not across the board.
Of course that would mean alliance would have to tag a capital constellation.
probably too late for this kind of change.
Something along those lines might work, and would help enforce the idea of staying together is better then spreading out.

Uphill Gardner
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:16:00 - [2429]
 

Originally by: Verone
All the 0.0 alliances are ****ing and moaning because they've got huge amounts of space, in some cases 5 or 6 regions. This is going to force even the largest of alliances to downsize their claims to space and focus on one region.

Why? Apart from the fact that no alliance is stupid enough to pay sov bills as proposed for Dominion, they will still have "huge amounts of space". No downsizing, just not paying sov. Nothing changes.

Well one thing will change: it will be much much easier to grief 0.0 spaceholders.
STOP spamming and infrastructure shooting will be annoying and (by the looks of it) require quite immediate response. Obviously if you don't pay for sov, you don't have to respond (any more than you do now if towers are attacked).
Putting cloakers in sov'd systems with industrial upgrades will cause even more grief.

Quote:
It's actually going to make 0.0 politics more interesting again and promote claiming space to actually use it, rather than land grabbing for e-peen purposes.


I'm not familiar with your epeen practices but how will 0.0 politics be more interesting? Because moons are still best income for alliances? Because 0.0 space it self is worth less than empire? Because you said so?

You will have less targets to shoot and possibly more griefing opportunity. Awsome!! Rolling Eyes

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.11.09 15:17:00 - [2430]
 

Originally by: ju4n1ta
Originally by: Lord Helghast
how about this for the allanices that dont want to grind, BRING IN PEOPLE THAT DO!

How? They can make more money in safety in highsec. 0.0 literally offers them nothing because these upgrades are full of suck.


You see this is where your mistaken, i and about 30 other friends i know WANT TO MOVE TO NULLSEC, we're MINERS and ratters, and hell we'd love to move to lowsec, we hate mission running, and their are many more beyond the ones i know...

Just because you wouldnt move from L4 area to 0.0 because of ISk difference doesnt mean their arent many that want to. Give me an alliance that will offer security against pirates (Even basic security) and i'll be glad to come in and mine the **** out of their belts and help out with logistics and i know of many more that would as well...

just because grinding ore and the likes isnt your thang doesnt mean its not others, i'd love a nice deposite of hemorphite, especially if their are several max upgraded belts with extra belts and hidden belts i'd go frigging nuts.

For miners, this change would mean all the world, as a miner i'd love to move down, to this as its very attractive, to missioners, theirs still L5's in lowsec that beat L4's i believe so thats still a benefit. Miners and ratters both get improvements exploration get improvements, so i'm still seeing 0.0 as very attractive, i see it unattractive to giant alliances that want to try to keep huge swaths of space.

If goonswarm starts an industrial wing and invites down 100's of miners, to work under their wing mining minerals, taking ore/minerals for ships and a bit of isk, you'd be surprised how many people would want to come down from highsec...

l4's may pay the best, but the fact is their not fun and not very interactive with friends, and theirs more to life than ISK, theirs the experience of the game, and thats what draws alot of people or makes alot of people want to go to nullsec, but as of so far the best alliances tend to not want the carebears, atleast pre-dominion.


Just to get few things straight:
- There is no security in 0.0. If you're not able to mine in low.sec you will die mining in 0.0. The best you can hope for is gang to chase attackers away, maybe kill few if they are stupid, but your barge/hauler will die regardless.
- If you put 100 miners in a 0.0 system all mining, rest assured spies will leak your location and you will get attacked and there is nothing you can do against that except hide (and if you do that you're not mining, are ya?)
- Goons will love your 30 man corp, contact them ingame. Admittance fee will probably be reduced because you're such a swell fella.
- Don't forget that 0.0 is... well... 0.0. Refined mins cost less there (even less ISK for you), haulers get ganked on empire and region chokepoints (unless you use rorq or JF, then rorq/JF will get ganked on the way to/from empire), it's not easy to get replacement ship/modules/ammo when you die. And most of all, hauling ore for 30 man hulk gang is not fun at all. Especially if you live 40+ jumps into 0.0 (where the good ore is).
- your 30 man hulk gang will clean out an entire system on few hours (entire system, not just highends). Then what? Wait for respawn? Move to another system (probably further away from outpost)?

I can understand how you feel because I started when Heladas mining guide was top reading for ISK making. It sucked back then (also not as much) and it still sucks today (a lot more than it used to).

And don't forget, now you'll have to pay sov bill as well. Does it still sounds like phun?


Laughing

I must say you are overdramaticing this a little bit.

Sounds like as soon as you undock with your ship in 0.0 your ship instapops...


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