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Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:19:00 - [211]
 

CCP Chronotis -
"Military Index

The military index is based upon killing NPCs, a favourite past time of many of you and you get more points, the bigger the NPC is. Simple and straightforward!"

I was going to counter point with this quote but I misread it.

I thought it was "the more points you have the bigger the NPC's are"

Well most Anomalies are crap, but some are worth a 20 million and a ton of battleship salvage, and Drone ones can offer some variation to your salvage letting you make different rigs.

To be honest, the Grav sites might be worth it it rats didn't spawn in them, it's almost worth the effort to mine them but it's rarely worth the ship to tank.

I was pretty excited by the changes but they went a little more conservative on the upgrades then I thought they would. Seriously I was expecting x3 ratting efficiency at the least.

Caliph Scorpionsting
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:20:00 - [212]
 

These proposed changes really and truly are garbage. I have never run a cosmic anomaly. I don't know anyone who has ever run an anomaly. The amount of bounty and salvage that is dropped from deadspace npcs is already less than regular belt rats. I don't want more trash. I want something tangible. There is no reason not to live in empire if this goes live.

If this ridiculous stuff goes live, all the major power blocs in 0.0 should just never fight. If this is CCP's "fix" to 0.0, then we can collectively turn it right back around and "break" it on them. If all the power blocs work collectively towards one end, we can force a meaningful change to 0.0 out of ccp. That collective end? Terrorize everyone in empire. Devote all of your resources to the unbridled destruction of EVERY resource people have in high sec. Wardec every mission runner. Suicide every. single. mission runner. When Empire is a barren wasteland, the product of a war machine fueled by running missions and various other non-0.0 related activities, it will be intolerable for everyone. The catalyst for change can come from within the game if CCP refuses to make 0.0 worth living in and claiming.

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:20:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy.

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.



Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in?

If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks).



Chaining belts is SO 2006. If you are really ratting that way and your post was not simply a Troll, then when you learn to Rat correctly, you won't be so scared about Dominion.

.

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:22:00 - [214]
 

CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:22:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: c0rn1
lol.
that's really funny, isn't it? I mean it's common that sov holding alliances take a fee of renters to use their space BUT if every a sov holding alliance would've put up those numbers to renters they'd call it a rip-off and no renter ever would go to 0.0.

This is just hilarious, CCP.
Remove the fees you suggested and make it a smart system.
For example:

you aim at 50-100 people per system (That's what you said is the amount of people 1 system can take).

so take the alliance number of pilots into account as well.

something like that for 1 system:

500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn.

Then you get a nice distribution and actually attract even small alliances (300+ ppl) to take space in 0.0. Your aim would be a distribution of 0.01 system/member. if that requirement is met, the alliance fulfils the requirement of 0.0 space without any fee since they have a 100% efficiency.

So a 300 people alliance can take 3 systems in 0.0 at 0 cost. Each additional system costs them extra cash and the more they take, the exponential more they have to pay:
Let's see the different relevances with different alliance numbers:

300 Members

1 - 3 Systems is free of charge and for each additional system: 1,6666 bn ISK
Distributed to all systems holding:

1-3 Systems: 0 ISK / system
4 Systems: 416 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 1.66 bn ISK
5 Systems: 666 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 3.32 bn ISK
6 Systems: 833 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 5 bn ISK
10 Systems: 1.16 bn / system | Monthly Bill = 11.6 bn ISK

1500 Members:

1-15 Systems free of charge and for each additional system: 333 mil
1-15 Systems: 0 ISK / system
16 Systems: 20.8 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 333 mil ISK
20 Systems: 83.3 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 1.665 bn ISK
30 Systems: 166 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 5.995 bn ISK
50 Systems: 233 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 11.667 bn ISK

5000 Members:

1-50 Systems free of charge and for each additional System: 100 mil
51 Systems: 2 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 100 mill
60 Systems: 16 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 1 bn ISK
80 Systems: 37.5 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 3bn ISK
100 Systems: 50 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 5bn ISK
150 Systems: 66 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 10bn ISK
200 Systems: 75 mil / system | Monthly Bill = 15bn ISK

Now you can get an additional factor into this:

The factor would be the actual presence in the systems:
Take as a base the system local. Count the undocked or moving pilots in that system of that explicit alliance over the day and calculate the average attendence to the system. Let's take 100 as base number of pilots which should be active in that system over a day since it would mean a maximum usage as well. do we only have a max count of 50 pilots over the day in that system it would mean only a 50% usage of it. calculatint the usage through all system will bring something between 30-70% overall usage. To bring this factor into our equation:

(500 bn * [number of current systems] / alliance members - 5bn) / usage (50% = 0.5).

Voilá, we have what we want. A progressing fee for our systems which actually attracts smaller entities into 0.0 as well since they do have nothing to pay for a certain amount of systems, but puts into progression the actual usage of systems. And if you tell me know larger alliances will start to make fleets just to visit their systems and have 100% usage. So be it if they don't have anything better to do than roam 2h through 200 systems of their empire. Sooner or later the consolidation of the territory will be the easier way to achieve a lower fee.

cheers

c0rn1



i like the idea, could use tweaking but the idea itself is very goodVery Happy

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:24:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 07/11/2009 01:48:30
The Issues Faced with the Current Implementation of the Dominion Sovereignty System

1. New, fixed costs are introduced that are not offset by a resource they gather, which raises the barrier to entry of any solar system by a fixed cost.

2. Solar system improvements increase the quantity of existing types of spawns. Systems that spawn "worthless goods" relative to level 4 missions will remain worthless, because the amount of money you can make per hour will not change.

3. Big alliances have the material harvesting backbone to keep what they have if they optimize their networks a bit. Outlying systems will become more vulnerable, but a well set up jump bridge network will do what it does today.

4. Smaller alliances will still have a hard time establishing a foothold because the status quo for income remains intact, minus the absurdly high cost of owning any solar system whatsoever.

What makes a system worthwhile to people?

1. Good Moons
2. Arkonor, Bistot, and or Crokite
3. Triple Battleship spawns of 1.25 million ISK each or more.

Unfortunately, this is the indelible standard on which value is now based.

If the solar system doesn't have 'good moons', 'good rats' or 'good ore', it's not 'good space'. Kind of shows how skewed having L4s makes things, doesn't it? Confused

Zemi Dahut
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:25:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.


Unironically quoting Bobby Atlas. What have you done CCP, what have you done?

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:25:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 00:53:25

Sounds like: "Give me 100 Million ISK a day for free please."




Well then something's wrong with your hearing.

These upgrades were supposed to fix two things:

1) make each system scalable so it can support 50-100 players.
2) Make it to where you can upgrade systems so systems that arn't being used due to their lack in profit (IE a 4 belt -.3 system) could be upgraded and players able to earn some cash.

Neither goal has been met with these upgrades. Anomalies are literally worthless...Level 4's blow them out of the water, as does just regular belt ratting. So having even 1,000 extra anomalies per system does nothing for an alliance. That's not an upgrade.

We need tangible upgrades that will support more players, which is why those that I listed were given.

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:26:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Caliph Scorpionsting


If this ridiculous stuff goes live, all the major power blocs in 0.0 should just never fight. If this is CCP's "fix" to 0.0, then we can collectively turn it right back around and "break" it on them. If all the power blocs work collectively towards one end, we can force a meaningful change to 0.0 out of ccp. That collective end? Terrorize everyone in empire. Devote all of your resources to the unbridled destruction of EVERY resource people have in high sec. Wardec every mission runner. Suicide every. single. mission runner. When Empire is a barren wasteland, the product of a war machine fueled by running missions and various other non-0.0 related activities, it will be intolerable for everyone. The catalyst for change can come from within the game if CCP refuses to make 0.0 worth living in and claiming.


Wow, the amount of Goonie tears in this thread is astounding. But really, 1/10 for a bad attempt at a Troll.

.

iP0D
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:28:00 - [220]
 

The alts trying to automagically defend a new Exodus expansion are really interesting Confused

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:30:00 - [221]
 

Looking at this, what it really boils down to is a Cynojammer Nerf.
Right now, if you've got sov 3 then you've probably got a cynojammer installed, there are huge swatches of 0.0 that are essentially buffer zones against invasion.

All the other strategic upgrades are only needed in a few key systems (jumb bridges, supercap production, cyno beacons) and those can be spread throughout an alliance's 'claimed' space, with the space in between unclaimed to save money. It's not advantageous to claim sov without a tangible benefit, and the fundamental benefits of claiming sov are the strategic upgrades which help you protect your core assets.

I can see the likes of CVA taking sov only in station systems and maybe a few other key locations (jump bridge exchanges, high end moons) and leaving the rest of providence unclaimed but still claiming it in spirit. NRDS alliances may well decide that neutrals may be disallowed from running exploration sites.

Anyway, the strategic upgrade I want to see is a gate monitor that automaticly posts Pilot and ship intel to an alliance intel channel every time a pilot jumps through.

Lynn de'Marco
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:31:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.



i never thought i'd do this but.......

i agree with bobby completely

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:33:00 - [223]
 

A Checklist for Posters in this Topic:

- Are you a member of a corp or alliance that currently holds sovereignty and will be directly affected by these changes?

- Has your corporation or alliance ever fought for and won control of an area of space, only to find out that in less than a month CCP wants to tax what you fought for right out from under you?

- Would you like to be able to do other things when you log in besides ratting constantly to pay your "space rent"?

Here, I'll make it even simpler.

- Do you actually live in 0.0 space? Have you ever even ENTERED 0.0 space? Do you have any first-hand knowledge of life in "Nullsec" whatsoever?

If you answered "NO" to any of the above questions, please take your mouse pointer off of the Reply button because you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it.

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:34:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January
We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it.

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:34:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


This.

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:35:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Korodan on 07/11/2009 01:35:15
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.


Oh god why am I agreeing with Bobby Atlas, I think this is a sign of the apocalypse.

Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January
We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it.



Nice one, but I doubt CCP will get the reference.

Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: CCP Chronotis in January
We didn't notify anyone about the change until 2 weeks before launch because until 2 weeks before launch we hadn't made a decision. You basically found out when we found out. We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers. It was a misread at an organizational level. Design, Marketing, Production, Community. You name it.



Bookmarking for future awesome.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:36:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: Vivian Azure
A Battlecruiser-spawn is some 600k ISK allready, so 7 Million ISK takes some 30 minutes of ratting in an utterly crap 0.0-system... not hours.

So excuse me, but if you as a member can't contribute 30 minutes a day to pay the bills of your alliance, then you're a lazy bum and should get kicked out of your alliance 0.0 space.

---

I can see why all of the big alliance-players are whining so much... they have to do some 30 minutes of work per day contributing to their alliance and the alliance won't be able to build tons of Titans, Moms and Dreads anymore for their lazy members... oh the joy Laughing


So you are suggesting eve-online should instead of game become work.

Also you really need to get a clue. For starters if you think building a single titan is that easy why arent you building them? Do you even know how much resources/time/effort it takes to even start building one? Do you even know what it takes to live in 0.0 space and what risks there are? Cause if it was that simple every 2 char corp would have an alliance and a sov system with station.

Also in this game there are corporations that are made out of RL friends, or ppl that became friends over time. We play together cause this is not work this is game, but I understand that concept of friendship might be strange to you.


I'm aware of what it takes to live in 0.0, holding outposts and building super-capitals, as I'm doing it for 3 years allready.

I'm not postig with my main-character for obvious reasons. My glorified leadership would kick me out of my corp instatly, as they themselves are whining about the changes the most, because they don't have the slightest clue Wink

30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.

The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.

If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:38:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Navick on 07/11/2009 01:45:56
Edited by: Navick on 07/11/2009 01:41:28
Originally by: Tangonis Galt
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


This.


Post with your main.

edit -
Originally by: Vivian Azure

30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.

The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.

If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.


Not everyone wants to pay $15 per account per month for what basically amounts to a second job, Vivian. Nobody's telling you how to play your EVE, so stop telling everyone else how to play theirs.

edit 2 -
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures
(See below)

Valeronx
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Fallen Angels Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:41:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Navick

you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it.


Don't be so hard on your Goon corpmates. They don't have a clear understanding of what the new changes mean, and are just reacting out of fear.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Korodan

Oh god why am I agreeing with Bobby Atlas, I think this is a sign of the apocalypse.


And why is it suddenly so cold? Neutral

Valtis Thermalion
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [233]
 

What all the "It's only 7m per member!" posters fail to realize is that why would anyone want to hold sov in the first place? Ok, alliance taxes it members so it can pay sov bill and gets.... 10% fuel reduction and name in the upper left corner. That's it. Outposts work just fine without any sov, you can rat and mine in systems without sov. Sure, jumpbridges etc. are nice, but you only need few systems for those. I guarantee that if this goes through like that, alliances will abandon their space, holding only few systems for jumpbridges and cap production and keeping the abanonded systems clear with mere military presence.

Also, this is very unfortunate for nrds as many have stated. Even if the upgrades were worth it, neutrals would take large portion of the new income, leaving us with massive sov bill. If we limited their access or demanded rent, we would be essentially running nbsi, and if we leave them be, we are faced with the costs without any benefits.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [234]
 

There is something missing here.

Either this is just a massive arbitrary increase in the cost of sov, in return for trivial opportunities to increase space (maybe meaning a system can support anything up to two or three more people, so long as those two or three people enjoy mining or ratting for crappy anomaly rats); or there is so much information missing from this devblog that coming to any conclusion is pointless.

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:43:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: CCP
The Streams Must Flow

You will be able to purchase and install upgrades in an infrastructure hub. These upgrades will unlock and add additional resources into your system, such as new hidden belts or encounters to complexes or escalation sites for you to find, thus increasing your potential diffuse income streams and theoretical member resource capacity of each system as a result.


VS

Originally by: CCP
The Benefits of Resource Upgrades

Note the names for the upgrades are not final!

Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system

Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system

Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system

Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system

Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space.


I can't believe both blogs are from the same company. How are these resource upgrades going to increase diffuse income streams for Alliances ( most of the value genreated by these aren't taxable and even if they were are nowhere near the costs we see thrown around ) and increase "theoretical member resource capacity of each system"

You want 50-100 people scanning and trying to share what? At most 20-25 additional sites? Even if it where 1 extra site per proposed user in system, how are people supposed to find "theirs"? Sharing 10-15 belts between a few ratters equals a lot of wasted play-time warping back and forth, now multiply that by 10 and most carebears are going to waste most of their time trying to find ISK, instead of making it.

Navick
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:45:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Valeronx
Originally by: Navick

you do not have the slightest freaking clue what you're talking about. This thread already has enough people regurgitating imaginary he-said-she-said isk-per-hour figures without you adding to it.


Don't be so hard on your Goon corpmates. They don't have a clear understanding of what the new changes mean, and are just reacting out of fear.


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures

Members - 146
Corporations - 3
Sovereignty - 0
Outposts - 0

Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-

Loike
The Alpha and the Omega
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:45:00 - [237]
 

While I expected you to increase sov holding costs, by this much is just stupid. You say you want to make larger alliances lower their claims, but this also completely hinders small alliance growth.

Your new method of sov warfare is now completely based on blobbing, something you have clearly said you want to get rid of :/

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:46:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
All the other strategic upgrades are only needed in a few key systems (jumb bridges, supercap production, cyno beacons) and those can be spread throughout an alliance's 'claimed' space, with the space in between unclaimed to save money. It's not advantageous to claim sov without a tangible benefit, and the fundamental benefits of claiming sov are the strategic upgrades which help you protect your core assets.


Not really. You dont even need to claim station systems, as stations are not linked to sov and have RF timers, so they are pretty much like POSs in NPC space. In Dominion only difference in having a sov in station system or not might be 6h of STOPs onlining (depends on what hits TQ). With nerf of moon goo etc, there are no real core assets that you can protect, unless you want to risk that much and make a titan for example.

Strabo44
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:47:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.


Good lord I'm agreeing with Bobby Atlas.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 01:47:00 - [240]
 

upgrades can't sustain 50-100 people, maintenance is too expensive and r64s are getting nerfed anyway.

CCP is going the swg route now is a good time to quit


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