| Author |
Topic |
WhiteSavage
Gallente
Ever Flow
Systematic-Chaos |
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:53:00 - [ 2281]
 Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Aralis
There is no irony at all Ranger.
They don't want to carebear. If their carebearing income sucks it means they have to do it for longer. ANd they'd need to do it a lot to support these ridiculous sov mechanics.
And cost is just the obvious part of the problem. Only a few people like Gnulpie have really latched on to what is so wrong with this sov part of the patch.
600M per month is hardly ridiculous...
x50 yes that is rediculous. 1 system fully upgraded will only be able to support maybe 10 people at once... and only for 4-5 hours each. And your not including JB's, cyno gens, cyno jammers, etc etc etc redonkulous is redonkulous. Oh and ccp... let us upgrade the BELT RATS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. These system upgrades are worthless!!!! |
Vanzatoarea |
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:54:00 - [ 2282]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 09/11/2009 02:58:32
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
vivian understand that what you do and the amount of time you investing playing internet spaceships is an exception and not the rule to which 0.0 players should be held to afford sovereignty and upgrades.
5-10 Million ISK a day is all you need to contribute to your corp/alliance to pay all the bills after these changes go live.
That's some 10-30 minutes of shooting some rats, depending on the system and the spawns in the belts.
Or you can make yourself an alt in a Raven and do some 2 quick LvL 4 mission, which will cover the costs you've to contribute for a whole week.
for ****s sake you ****** (ccp , if you can moderate for personal attacks you can sure do more in this thread?) so as i said , you obnoxious ****ed up little piece of trash the question is WHY if the answer is "because you have to be masochistic to be in 0.0" or some variation of this , like you will do it not because it`s more efficient , more fun etc etc but because you crave for teamwork PvE and a name on the map...newsflash...this rare bread of people is allready in 0.0 so what`s CCP purpose here then? Obviously not to draw in more people...you know...the ones looking for efficiency/fun etc , but drive away the ones who so far managed to put up with 0.0 are you really telling me the whole purpose of this expansion is for people to go make isk in empire? |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:55:00 - [ 2283]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/11/2009 07:55:52 Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.
no that really isn't the truth, you don't know what the **** you're talking about holy ****
Interesting that you can't seem to figure out how to make money in 0.0 actually. It's really not difficult. |
Korodan
GoonWaffe
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:56:00 - [ 2284]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Oh and ccp... let us upgrade the BELT RATS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
We told you the southeast was bad, angel rats are ****ing terrible. I actually feel bad for the average Atlas pilot having to shoot at them. |
Scouty McScoutersen |
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:57:00 - [ 2285]
|
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:57:00 - [ 2286]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
x50 yes that is rediculous. 1 system fully upgraded will only be able to support maybe 10 people at once... and only for 4-5 hours each. And your not including JB's, cyno gens, cyno jammers, etc etc etc
redonkulous is redonkulous.
Oh and ccp... let us upgrade the BELT RATS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. These system upgrades are worthless!!!!
Don't do 50x then... Claim as much space as you can pay for, control as much as your military allows you. Simple as that. |
WhiteSavage
Gallente
Ever Flow
Systematic-Chaos |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:00:00 - [ 2287]
Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.
lol. enlighten us poor average souls. considering the posts of 100+ people here your either an idiot or just warping around to everyones systems looking for faction spawns and getting lucky. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:01:00 - [ 2288]
|
Korodan
GoonWaffe
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:04:00 - [ 2289]
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.
lol. enlighten us poor average souls. considering the posts of 100+ people here your either an idiot or just warping around to everyones systems looking for faction spawns and getting lucky.
Honestly he must be popping whatever the name of the damn Angel topped rank officer is because even Domination BS spawns give **** loot. |
Scouty McScoutersen |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:05:00 - [ 2290]
|
Scouty McScoutersen |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:06:00 - [ 2291]
Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 08:06:59 Originally by: WhiteSavage
Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.
lol. enlighten us poor average souls. considering the posts of 100+ people here your either an idiot or just warping around to everyones systems looking for faction spawns and getting lucky.
no you see everyone just gets faction and plex loot all the time, that's why the markets are flooded with it and they're worth so little! |
gambrinous |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:06:00 - [ 2292]
Originally by: Quesa
Take for instance ATLAS space. We currently control Omist, Detorid and Insmother. When you take a close look at those regions we have 4, maybe 5 constellations that have decent enough true-sec to warrant moving a BS to it and using even T1 ammo to rat in. Now, about 2/3 of the systems contained within those constellations have barely enough belts to house 1 ratter. That leaves us with about 1/3 that MIGHT be able to sustain 2 ratters. So that's maybe 50 ratters being sustained by 3 entire regions. Lets not mention that it takes a good 30-45 minutes (if not more) to groom a system before it comes to the 30-40m/hour mark.
QFT, the real reason most of 0.0 is not used is because it is useless. it plain sucks. but ccp won't look at that because its too hard. like grouping weapons was too hard. |
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:11:00 - [ 2293]
Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: Quesa
Take for instance ATLAS space. We currently control Omist, Detorid and Insmother. When you take a close look at those regions we have 4, maybe 5 constellations that have decent enough true-sec to warrant moving a BS to it and using even T1 ammo to rat in. Now, about 2/3 of the systems contained within those constellations have barely enough belts to house 1 ratter. That leaves us with about 1/3 that MIGHT be able to sustain 2 ratters. So that's maybe 50 ratters being sustained by 3 entire regions. Lets not mention that it takes a good 30-45 minutes (if not more) to groom a system before it comes to the 30-40m/hour mark.
QFT, the real reason most of 0.0 is not used is because it is useless. it plain sucks.
but ccp won't look at that because its too hard. like grouping weapons was too hard.
Maxed space upgrades gain your system 10 insta respawn anomalies independent on true sec. |
Sarah Norbulk
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:13:00 - [ 2294]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Why would anyone in their right mind pay for space that generates income to a mediocre mission runner in empire when there is so much more risk. It makes no sense.
Why do they do it now for even less? 
And you will be making at least as much as what has been purported to be one of the most lucrative occupations in the game. Lets not change the level 4 mission runners income for "outlandish" to "mediocre" just because this thread isn't about how overly profitable Empire is for a change.
I'm making a concession here by the way. The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong. For the purposes of this discussion however we should probably keep it simple and say its equal.
Find me any belt ratter in 0.0 that can make 45+ mil/hr from bounties and get LP while doing it. I'll keep my mission alt thank-you very much. You have confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about. Most sov is held by mining towers with the check box ticked. It costs nothing extra from what it would cost anyway. High-ends may have a deathstar with a cynojammer in it, but most of 0.0 is held by the bare minimum of POSes that work double duty as industry platforms that basically pay for their running costs. |
Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:14:00 - [ 2295]
Originally by: Tesal
Edited by: Tesal on 09/11/2009 07:57:00
I call it like I see it.
Personal income is not the problem, corp and alliance level income is the issue. On the corp and alliance level, you have to be able to pay for Sov infrastructure, ship replacement, POS and POS gear, cap ships and so on. These costs are substantial, and if you can't pool resources effectively, you can't get it to work.
Its irrelevant if players support themselves as individuals, leadership won't have time to rat usually, and will have to front the costs for POS gear, fuel, equipment and the cost of a ship replacement program. That takes billions even for a small alliance. So unless you can get to cash flow, what leader is not going to eternally bleed cash to support their alliance? It doesn't work. It leaves them working all the time just so other people can play.
How individual players get their isk is of secondary importance frankly, because if you can't even get set up as a corp or alliance in 0.0, earning a living there as an individual is impossible.
*edit
I would add that the place where personal income enters, is tax, that only affects killing rats, nothing else, not mining, not wormholes, nothing. The only other corp/alliance income source is moons. Other income sources exist, but don't dump isk directly into the corp wallet easily. Maximum tax I could charge is 20% probably, 40% is too high to keep players. The rewards/upgrades will never be able to make up for a situation where a 40% tax is required for the corp to stay in 0.0.
That's not entirely true. My guild for instance specifically does mining ops with which it taxes a certain percentage of the ore. It's not the same auto-tax from missions/ratting but all the same corps/alliance can make ISK from mining of their members and it can be quite profitable. What alliances are going to have to do now is gather corps to fill in the roles. Such as a mining corp, ratting corp, exploration corp, etc and assign them. They surely can get the taxes needs from such corps to pay for alliance costs. Whether the upgrades are enough to entice the necessary people from empire to fill those roles is another story. It is gonna need to be substantial enough for the risks involve. There is a reason many corps forgo 0.0 and do most of their stuff in empire + WH. Alliances are going to have to guarantee the safety of their non-pvp member corps. |
gambrinous |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:16:00 - [ 2296]
Edited by: gambrinous on 09/11/2009 08:18:33 Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: Quesa
Take for instance ATLAS space. We currently control Omist, Detorid and Insmother. When you take a close look at those regions we have 4, maybe 5 constellations that have decent enough true-sec to warrant moving a BS to it and using even T1 ammo to rat in. Now, about 2/3 of the systems contained within those constellations have barely enough belts to house 1 ratter. That leaves us with about 1/3 that MIGHT be able to sustain 2 ratters. So that's maybe 50 ratters being sustained by 3 entire regions. Lets not mention that it takes a good 30-45 minutes (if not more) to groom a system before it comes to the 30-40m/hour mark.
QFT, the real reason most of 0.0 is not used is because it is useless. it plain sucks.
but ccp won't look at that because its too hard. like grouping weapons was too hard.
Maxed space upgrades gain your system 10 insta respawn anomalies independent on true sec.
so that's 10 ppl that can "mission", what about the other 1000? oh ye, just claim a 100 systems ... wait  do you live there? I do, those upgrades are meaning less to me. E: btw where did all the uninformed trolls come from all of a sudden, lol is ccp back at work and poasting on their alts? |
Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:16:00 - [ 2297]
Goons tears are the best tears... as said before it shall be said again. CRY MOAR  |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:16:00 - [ 2298]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Why would anyone in their right mind pay for space that generates income to a mediocre mission runner in empire when there is so much more risk. It makes no sense.
Why do they do it now for even less?
Some people like the 0.0 play style, and are willing to take a hit to play the game that way. That's cool, good for them. Some people hate it, and are willing to stay in Motsu even if the worst -0.01 system in Geminate was promising free officer gear for everyone who jumped a shuttle in. Again, that's fine. But there's a whole bunch of people in the middle who are willing to trade risk for reward, but have no conceivable reason to try at present. Why would you rat for 20M/hour when you can mission for 20M/hour instead, and never get blown up? The goal of Dominion was supposed to be to clear room for those people to come to 0.0, and then give them a reason to bother. Increase the population density of non-safe space, add to the number of people who fight instead of just bearing around, and make 0.0 cool again for a reason other than ludicrous x64 passive income. This patch won't drive the 0.0 lovers away, but it won't bring the risk-tolerant out of empire either. That's why it's a failure - not because people who are willing to put up with crappy 0.0 mechanics will suddenly balk at putting up with slightly less crappy 0.0 mechanics, but because the people who you were trying to draw just won't care. |
Tesal |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:19:00 - [ 2299]
Here is what is missing in this. You will still have access to neighboring systems, that will still have the same true sec, and you will still be able to rat in them just as you did before, its just that you won't have Sov there, and you will have to fight people if they show up. You won't be under a cyno jammer with jump bridges all the time, you are going to have to venture out. Once you are out there, people will kill you.
As for Goons caring about the little guy, that is bull****. They don't give a crap about anyone except themselves. They have always been that way. |
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:20:00 - [ 2300]
Originally by: Sarah Norbulk
Find me any belt ratter in 0.0 that can make 45+ mil/hr from bounties and get LP while doing it. I'll keep my mission alt thank-you very much. You have confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about.
Most sov is held by mining towers with the check box ticked. It costs nothing extra from what it would cost anyway. High-ends may have a deathstar with a cynojammer in it, but most of 0.0 is held by the bare minimum of POSes that work double duty as industry platforms that basically pay for their running costs.
You make +45M/hour on single account mission running only if you run a Marauder. LP revenue is already included in +45M mark as well as loot and other mission income. As for the rest of the post...I don't know a single alliance that would hold their space just because of moons. Sov holding is solely depending on your military/diplomatic effort. Sorry, it is you being clueless here. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:25:00 - [ 2301]
Originally by: Korodan
Originally by: WhiteSavage
Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.
lol. enlighten us poor average souls. considering the posts of 100+ people here your either an idiot or just warping around to everyones systems looking for faction spawns and getting lucky.
Honestly he must be popping whatever the name of the damn Angel topped rank officer is because even Domination BS spawns give **** loot.
Actually I prefer to take my faction gear from other peoples wrecks. Depends on my mood actually. If I want to earn substantial isk quickly, I can always track down a moderate wormhole with a good small team (or a high end one with a larger team). My share is usually a few hundred million isk for the evenings entertainment. Being in null sec makes the good ones much easier to find. I also do a lot of production, and occasional ratting/anomalies/plex's to keep the sec status from going to far south. Its' pretty rare that I go see my level 4 agents, I find it mind numbingly boring (although the epic arcs are mildly entertaining). Heck, even our miners make pretty good money. Probably because they are well organized for it and reap maximum yields for their time working as a team. That was always something I couldn't get into however. Be that as it may, as I said I'm not going to debate the level of income in null sec (either currently or after Dominion upgrades) being better than empire. Lets just go with "equal after Dominion" for the purposes of this thread. I have to hang it up for the evening though gentlemen. We'll have to discuss this more at a later time. |
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:26:00 - [ 2302]
Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 08:26:33 Originally by: gambrinous
so that's 10 ppl that can "mission", what about the other 1000? oh ye, just claim a 100 systems ... wait
do you live there? I do, those upgrades are meaning less to me.
E: btw where did all the uninformed trolls come from all of a sudden, lol is ccp back at work and poasting on their alts?
10 guaranteed anomalies seems better than 2 belt ratters. In any case it is better than what you have now and the numbers are a subject to change so stop trolling. |
Ryixezu
Amarr
Big Shadows
Atlas Alliance |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:29:00 - [ 2303]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Some people like the 0.0 play style, and are willing to take a hit to play the game that way. That's cool, good for them. Some people hate it, and are willing to stay in Motsu even if the worst -0.01 system in Geminate was promising free officer gear for everyone who jumped a shuttle in. Again, that's fine. But there's a whole bunch of people in the middle who are willing to trade risk for reward, but have no conceivable reason to try at present. Why would you rat for 20M/hour when you can mission for 20M/hour instead, and never get blown up?
The goal of Dominion was supposed to be to clear room for those people to come to 0.0, and then give them a reason to bother. Increase the population density of non-safe space, add to the number of people who fight instead of just bearing around, and make 0.0 cool again for a reason other than ludicrous x64 passive income. This patch won't drive the 0.0 lovers away, but it won't bring the risk-tolerant out of empire either. That's why it's a failure - not because people who are willing to put up with crappy 0.0 mechanics will suddenly balk at putting up with slightly less crappy 0.0 mechanics, but because the people who you were trying to draw just won't care.
I think you just increased your chances for the CSM by at least tenfold. Quoting not only for the obvious truth but also because it's expressed in a fool-proof way and catch the essence of what just about all of us probably want the expansion to be. I don't think it can be said enough though - those already in 0.0 will most probably stay there. Those already in empire will most probably stay there. This was supposed to change. |
gambrinous |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:30:00 - [ 2304]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Sarah Norbulk
Find me any belt ratter in 0.0 that can make 45+ mil/hr from bounties and get LP while doing it. I'll keep my mission alt thank-you very much. You have confirmed you have no clue what you're talking about.
Most sov is held by mining towers with the check box ticked. It costs nothing extra from what it would cost anyway. High-ends may have a deathstar with a cynojammer in it, but most of 0.0 is held by the bare minimum of POSes that work double duty as industry platforms that basically pay for their running costs.
You make +45M/hour on single account mission running only if you run a Marauder. LP revenue is already included in +45M mark as well as loot and other mission income.
As for the rest of the post...I don't know a single alliance that would hold their space just because of moons. Sov holding is solely depending on your military/diplomatic effort.
Sorry, it is you being clueless here.
ah no, that's pretty standard, there's a thread somewhere also, not sure how much it weighs on the equation, but the highsec missions can be done semi afk, try that in 0.0 (e.g. come home from work, start mission, manage agro, go cook dinner) |
Kanatta Jing |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:34:00 - [ 2305]
|
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:36:00 - [ 2306]
Originally by: gambrinous
ah no, that's pretty standard, there's a thread somewhere
also, not sure how much it weighs on the equation, but the highsec missions can be done semi afk, try that in 0.0 (e.g. come home from work, start mission, manage agro, go cook dinner)
I know the thread. You won't make the ISK semi AFK. The guy is running the most efficient mission ship in the game with good skills and game knowledge. Stop trolling, ffs. |
Korodan
GoonWaffe
|
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:37:00 - [ 2307]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Why would anyone in their right mind pay for space that generates income to a mediocre mission runner in empire when there is so much more risk. It makes no sense.
Why do they do it now for even less?
Some people like the 0.0 play style, and are willing to take a hit to play the game that way. That's cool, good for them. Some people hate it, and are willing to stay in Motsu even if the worst -0.01 system in Geminate was promising free officer gear for everyone who jumped a shuttle in. Again, that's fine. But there's a whole bunch of people in the middle who are willing to trade risk for reward, but have no conceivable reason to try at present. Why would you rat for 20M/hour when you can mission for 20M/hour instead, and never get blown up?
The goal of Dominion was supposed to be to clear room for those people to come to 0.0, and then give them a reason to bother. Increase the population density of non-safe space, add to the number of people who fight instead of just bearing around, and make 0.0 cool again for a reason other than ludicrous x64 passive income. This patch won't drive the 0.0 lovers away, but it won't bring the risk-tolerant out of empire either. That's why it's a failure - not because people who are willing to put up with crappy 0.0 mechanics will suddenly balk at putting up with slightly less crappy 0.0 mechanics, but because the people who you were trying to draw just won't care.
I think if I wasn't voting for Zastrow I'd vote for you at this point. Atlas vote for this dude he isn't stupid. |
gambrinous |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:38:00 - [ 2308]
Edited by: gambrinous on 09/11/2009 08:44:56 Originally by: Kepakh
Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 08:26:33
Originally by: gambrinous
so that's 10 ppl that can "mission", what about the other 1000? oh ye, just claim a 100 systems ... wait
do you live there? I do, those upgrades are meaning less to me.
E: btw where did all the uninformed trolls come from all of a sudden, lol is ccp back at work and poasting on their alts?
10 guaranteed anomalies seems better than 2 belt ratters. In any case it is better than what you have now and the numbers are a subject to change so stop trolling.
it's not better than what I have now, now I have to JC to empire to run L4, post patch this won't change. I'm an average grunt in some average space in 0.0, these benefits don't mean anything at all to me. E: Originally by: Kepakh
I know the thread. You won't make the ISK semi AFK. The guy is running the most efficient mission ship in the game with good skills and game knowledge.
fair point, I forgot what he was using, it's irrelevant tho, I'm not trolling, the patch contains no improvements for 0.0, and CCP has admited isk/hour will be on par with L4, which can be run afk, and in near complete safety. sum total: I will likely pay more to keep the same crappy space while still earning isk in highsec; whilst the goals of encouraging more to enter 0.0 will not be fulfilled |
NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:43:00 - [ 2309]
Originally by: Tesal
Here is what is missing in this. You will still have access to neighboring systems, that will still have the same true sec, and you will still be able to rat in them just as you did before, its just that you won't have Sov there, and you will have to fight people if they show up. You won't be under a cyno jammer with jump bridges all the time, you are going to have to venture out. Once you are out there, people will kill you.
So...why bother changing the sov system at all then, if the big alliances are still gonna use large amounts of territory other than their "official" holdings? Just because it isn't marked on the influence map, and doesn't have a cyno jammer, doesn't mean that some little empire alliance that wants to reach for the stars is going to challenge for it. They'd just get crushed, and they know it, because damnit we need to use this lousy space anyway because there isn't enough room in our super upgraded home systems to support everyone. Granted the hypothetical person is only going to make 20 million isk/hour after 2 hours of grooming, but he's going to take that because it beats sitting docked in station spinning his Rifter with his BS5 character. |
Kepakh |
Posted - 2009.11.09 08:44:00 - [ 2310]
Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 08:45:51 Originally by: gambrinous
it's not better than what I have now, now I have to JC to empire to run L4, post patch this won't change. I'm an average grunt in some average space in 0.0, these benefits don't mean anything at all to me.
No harm being done to you with Dominion, means no reasons for complain and trolling. |
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