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Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.09 06:54:00 - [2251]
 

Originally by: Jethro Hawkins
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Quoted it before, will keep quoting it. What's the worst that happens? CCP won't answer... probably.

Please don't break the game until I actually can fly my capital ship wish list please.

Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 06:55:00 - [2252]
 

Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 06:55:54
the obvious answer is they don't want to increase 0.0 isk and cause inflation, or decrease empire isk and cause carebear (ie most of the people playing this game) ragequits.

nullseccers are screwed and the only way to stay viable is to have an alt running missions in empire, oh well

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.09 06:59:00 - [2253]
 

Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 06:55:54
the obvious answer is they don't want to increase 0.0 isk and cause inflation, or decrease empire isk and cause carebear (ie most of the people playing this game) ragequits.

nullseccers are screwed and the only way to stay viable is to have an alt running missions in empire, oh well


Yes oh well. Dont bother trying to fix it scouty mcsoutersen has declared it impossible. Some inflation in the game would not be that harmfull as eve currently seems to be in a deflation and will be more so with the current sov prices. Empire dweller spending power goes down, null sec spending power goes up, hooray!


YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:01:00 - [2254]
 

Edited by: Korodan on 09/11/2009 07:10:17
Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 06:55:54
the obvious answer is they don't want to increase 0.0 isk and cause inflation, or decrease empire isk and cause carebear (ie most of the people playing this game) ragequits.

nullseccers are screwed and the only way to stay viable is to have an alt running missions in empire, oh well


At this point we need inflation because some ships are selling at near insurance fraud prices, if it gets to a certain point you could literally have people buying ships, insuring them, then just undocking and blowing it up.

edit: I'm not at a machine that can run EVE right now, can someone tell me if any T1 ship selling in Jita has finally reached insurance fraud prices? Last I checked they were getting pretty damn close.

Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:03:00 - [2255]
 

Originally by: ep1k


Yes oh well. Dont bother trying to fix it scouty mcsoutersen has declared it impossible. [/b]


why bother since the current system is working fine and hasn't caused ragequits OR inflation ? get a mission running alt, problem solved

ofc after the expansion will be different because non NPC 0.0 will become uninhabited desert with these proposed changes

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:07:00 - [2256]
 

Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Originally by: ep1k


Yes oh well. Dont bother trying to fix it scouty mcsoutersen has declared it impossible. [/b]


why bother since the current system is working fine and hasn't caused ragequits OR inflation ? get a mission running alt, problem solved

ofc after the expansion will be different because non NPC 0.0 will become uninhabited desert with these proposed changes



Because its a terrible system that noone wants. put the rewards where the risks are. They want more people in dangerous space, put more income there. And you talk like inflation is 100% a terrible thing. Its not, and deflation is a much worse thing.

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:09:00 - [2257]
 

Learn to grind Goons, it's what the rest of EVE has to do.

Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:09:00 - [2258]
 

Originally by: ep1k

Because its a terrible system that noone wants.


well ccp wants it because 1) it stops carebears from quitting and 2) makes pew pewers to get additional account for missioning it up. if this game has proven anything its that ppl will eat any amounts of **** to go the extra mile

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:12:00 - [2259]
 

Originally by: Korodan
Edited by: Korodan on 09/11/2009 07:10:17
Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 06:55:54
the obvious answer is they don't want to increase 0.0 isk and cause inflation, or decrease empire isk and cause carebear (ie most of the people playing this game) ragequits.

nullseccers are screwed and the only way to stay viable is to have an alt running missions in empire, oh well


At this point we need inflation because some ships are selling at near insurance fraud prices, if it gets to a certain point you could literally have people buying ships, insuring them, then just undocking and blowing it up.

edit: I'm not at a machine that can run EVE right now, can someone tell me if any T1 ship selling in Jita has finally reached insurance fraud prices? Last I checked they were getting pretty damn close.


This has happened a few times in EVE history. Eventually the cost of the ships rise again due to the demand. Go figure.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:15:00 - [2260]
 

1) Moon income is supposedly getting spread over other moons. That means only what you mine is changing, the income will remain most likely the same.
2) People in 0.0 are already ratting, running sites and some say that they even mine. This will remain unchanged and you get improvement in form of space upgrades to do it more comfortably.

Will those changes improve 0.0 gameplay? Not really.
Will it make the game better in future? Maybe.
Could it be done better? Most likely.
Is Dominion a fail? Of course it is.

No sky is falling(yet).

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:15:00 - [2261]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
Learn to grind Goons, it's what the rest of EVE has to do.

You've obviously never had to fuel a tower or 500+. We grind more than you. And thanks for the single-out so everyone knows you're just being a troll and not looking to add anything but a Nelson laugh from your jewgold-inlaid ivory tower in Motsu.

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:16:00 - [2262]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
Learn to grind Goons, it's what the rest of EVE has to do.


Ever have to haul POS fuel?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:17:00 - [2263]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/11/2009 07:22:18
Originally by: Aralis
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/11/2009 06:31:52
Originally by: Esplin
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


I don't suppose you have considered that while yes anomalies will be as profitable as level 4 missions, you will also have additional lucrative sources of income not readily available in high sec.

More lucrative, hidden belts might mean you will have to actually have some people on hand that know how to mine properly (and profitably). Repeated claiming that nobody mines in null sec because it isn't as profitable as ratting makes you look a bit... inept. Sorry.

Upgraded mini-profession sites (which admittedly could use some tweaking), high end complexes, and access to more and better Wormholes are all money makers that are either not readily available or will be rarer or of lower quality than in Empire space.

Of course there are still your high end moons, which while not as valuable as before are still a resource most often found in null sec (or at worst within easy range of null sec).

I don't think what we currently have proposed in Dominion is perfect yet, far from it. However singling out one of the several high end upgradeable revenue streams that will be available to you, and then quoting each other endlessly because because one of them is "merely" as profitable as the best monetary resource in the game is pretty short sighted.






Utterly irrelevant. You can only do one of these things at a time. Unlimited numbers of you could do level 4 missions. So at BEST you only need to count the best resource in 0.0.


I do get your point, but you missed mine I think. High sec has basically one highly lucrative income source, null sec will have several to choose from to match your taste. This is taking the amount of resources that you currently have spread across large tracts of space and concentrating them in a much smaller area. You have the same earnings potential as those people you have bitterly complained about in the past. And you will have this increased (over what you have now) earnings potential without the pain in the ass of having to spread out over countless systems to give everyone room to harvest them as you currently do.

Yes, Dominion was designed to siphon off some of the over abundance of non-participation requiring wealth that most null sec alliances have (this part is more directly pointed at those alliances that boast of their limitless income) and instead put more money making potential into the hands of the members (compared to what they have now). Lets face it, CCP would be foolish to make Dominion so lucrative that it causes more harm than good, and does nothing to reduce the over abundance of isk that makes its way into alliance leadership hands.

So equal financial footing, but with more risk. Lets face it, its the risk part of that equation that has the appeal for most people looking to get into (or already in) null sec. That is the price you pay for the unlimited pew pew that so many in this thread state is the main reason for them being there to begin with. You want the pew pew (and the freedom/ability to shape your space to match your vision of it), so you accept the risk... all financial issues are now on equal footing and therefore a non-issue.

Complaining that Dominion will force people to care bear, and then complaining that said care bearing isn't profitable enough is a bit much.




gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:18:00 - [2264]
 

Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Originally by: ep1k

Because its a terrible system that noone wants.


well ccp wants it because 1) it stops carebears from quitting and 2) makes pew pewers to get additional account for missioning it up. if this game has proven anything its that ppl will eat any amounts of **** to go the extra mile


well I can only speak for myself and the dozen or so that I personally know with alts, but neither me or any of them bought an extra account to run missions. It is mostly to help out (scout/haul/dual box) or train stuff you otherwise wouldn't on your main. Running missions is just an extra, and obvious, thing to do with it because it's lucrative, easy, and risk free - although mind numbingly boring)

Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:19:00 - [2265]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

Complaining that Dominion will force people to care bear, and then complaining that said care bearing isn't profitable enough is a bit much.



how is it a 'bit much', it's like the central problem with these changes are you a ****ing idiot?

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:20:00 - [2266]
 

we could just ditch sov altogether, hand all stations over to NPC and seed them with agents

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:21:00 - [2267]
 

Let us assume that Dominion will indeed lure a lot more people into 0.0 (which not only I doubt pretty much). And let us assume that they will do all the new profession sites.

What happens then with the new and heavily increased supply? If there won't be a new demand then prices will crash totally.

As example: already we see a lot of the t2 salvage parts around 50k per piece and only a few really expensive at 10 mil - but those will crash in price also if the supply increases drastically. So the proposed good income will turn out to be worth nothing. Or is CCP planning to add some new demand to balance the increased supply?

Same with the high end ores. Yes sure you can add a bunch of them, easy to mine, but that again will crash the market - if all the idea behind Dominion comes true and lots more people go into 0.0 doing profitable stuff.

Or are you going to throw the concept of player driven markets away and introduce just tons of isk faucets from npc's? (You already started to do that with introducing the sleeper tags in wormholes - a major part of the profits from wormholes comes from those tags which are nothing but artificial isk faucets and shouldn't have any place in a player-driven economy.)

And these questions ARE important because people need to pay the fixed and completely artificial upkeep costs in isk. And it doesn't matter for that artificial upkeep system what the player driven economy is doing and if the original numbers are still met or not.

Actually I would go forth and say that such an artificial and fixed system is pretty much incompatible with a truely player driven economy and market.

Would be nice if CCP could point out their opinion about this (and please don't come with something like 'we will watch it closely and adjust it if necessary' because we all know how that goes in the long run. If you care to answer, give some real thoughts and answers and not just some nonsense, better don't answer at all then).

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:27:00 - [2268]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
we could just ditch sov altogether, hand all stations over to NPC and seed them with agents


This would be better then Dominion, true fact.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:28:00 - [2269]
 

I don't think 0.0 needs to be equal to a level 4. I wouldn't want 0.0 to even work like a level 4. It just needs to get close to cash flow without high end moons. That way a corp can stay there without running out of isk. I think CCP should probably say the minimum corp size they are figuring, and show a path to cash flow, including all the major costs. If they can't do that, that is a problem.

If a corp can gut it out, they can start getting into cap ships, and get some high ends, and crappy nerfed high ends are still pretty decent. I also remind Goons especially that of the low sec high ends, those moons are abused to support the big 0.0 powers in addition to the 0.0 moons. Moons are a great isk fountain for a corp, but they are a terribly abused mechanic. This has been paying for their fuel and cyno jammers and cap fleets and ship replacement. Without those fat high ends, you are in a similar position cash wise even if the Sov part of the patch is delayed. so delaying the Sov portion of the patch will only forstall the abandoning of space.

Part of the pain of this patch is you figuring what you will do without enough isk from moons.

The Goon tears however make me believe this patch will work to break up entrenched powers.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:32:00 - [2270]
 

Originally by: Tesal
I don't think 0.0 needs to be equal to a level 4. I wouldn't want 0.0 to even work like a level 4. It just needs to get close to cash flow without high end moons. That way a corp can stay there without running out of isk. I think CCP should probably say the minimum corp size they are figuring, and show a path to cash flow, including all the major costs. If they can't do that, that is a problem.

If a corp can gut it out, they can start getting into cap ships, and get some high ends, and crappy nerfed high ends are still pretty decent. I also remind Goons especially that of the low sec high ends, those moons are abused to support the big 0.0 powers in addition to the 0.0 moons. Moons are a great isk fountain for a corp, but they are a terribly abused mechanic. This has been paying for their fuel and cyno jammers and cap fleets and ship replacement. Without those fat high ends, you are in a similar position cash wise even if the Sov part of the patch is delayed. so delaying the Sov portion of the patch will only forstall the abandoning of space.

Part of the pain of this patch is you figuring what you will do without enough isk from moons.

The Goon tears however make me believe this patch will work to break up entrenched powers.


Noone in this thread has been complaining about moon goo. The main complaint is that personal income in null sec is crap now. And at best if you pay your huge montly sove bill, its equal to level 4s. That is the complaint. And if you think thats fine just go back to running your level 4s and dont bother yourself with null sec discussion.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:37:00 - [2271]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/11/2009 07:39:33
Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Originally by: Ranger 1

Complaining that Dominion will force people to care bear, and then complaining that said care bearing isn't profitable enough is a bit much.



how is it a 'bit much', it's like the central problem with these changes are you a ****ing idiot?


Relax my friend. The people that like to care bear in null sec will continue to do so and it will be more profitable than before. If not enough people are willing to do it because it interferes with their PVP habit, then smart alliances well bring in people that DO like to do it to keep things upgraded.

How can I put this to make more sense to you? How about this. You have people that say they are PVP only, and are upset because PVE will have more impact than it currently has. And yet those same people in their very next breath whine about how profitable their care bearing will be. Laughing There is more than a little irony in that, I'm sorry if you don't get it.

Then to increase the irony levels a bit more, those same people complain that they won't be making any more than level 4 mission runners (which these same people have bitterly condemned as making too much money in the past).

These people are going to have to make up their mind what is really important to them. Your income stream is now equal to the best empire has to offer (and more diverse) but... if you want unlimited pew pew, you have to accept the risk that it is going to occasionally interfere with your money making potential.

Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:42:00 - [2272]
 

There is no irony at all Ranger.

They don't want to carebear. If their carebearing income sucks it means they have to do it for longer. ANd they'd need to do it a lot to support these ridiculous sov mechanics.

And cost is just the obvious part of the problem. Only a few people like Gnulpie have really latched on to what is so wrong with this sov part of the patch.

Sarah Norbulk
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:43:00 - [2273]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 09/11/2009 07:39:33
Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen
Originally by: Ranger 1

Complaining that Dominion will force people to care bear, and then complaining that said care bearing isn't profitable enough is a bit much.



how is it a 'bit much', it's like the central problem with these changes are you a ****ing idiot?


Relax my friend. The people that like to care bear in null sec will continue to do so and it will be more profitable than before. If not enough people are willing to do it because it interferes with their PVP habit, then smart alliances well bring in people that DO like to do it to keep things upgraded.

How can I put this to make more sense to you? How about this. You have people that say they are PVP only, and are upset because PVE will have more impact than it currently has. And yet those same people in their very next breath whine about how profitable their care bearing will be. Laughing There is more than a little irony in that, I'm sorry if you don't get it.

Then to increase the irony levels a bit more, those same people complain that they won't be making any more than level 4 mission runners (which these same people have bitterly condemned as making too much money in the past).

These people are going to have to make up their mind what is really important to them. Your income stream is now equal to the best empire has to offer (and more diverse) but... if you want unlimited pew pew, you have to accept the risk that it is going to occasionally interfere with your money making potential.


Why would anyone in their right mind pay for space that generates income to a mediocre mission runner in empire when there is so much more risk. It makes no sense.


YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:44:00 - [2274]
 

Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 07:45:12
Originally by: Ranger 1


How can I put this to make more sense to you? How about this. You have people that say they are PVP only, and are upset because PVE will have more impact than it currently has. And yet those same people in their very next breath whine about how profitable their care bearing will be. Laughing There is more than a little irony in that, I'm sorry if you don't get it.



you do not understand what irony means and lack the mental faculties to process what most people in this thread are concerned about

hint: these changes will depopulate 0.0 and reduce the amount of pvp in the game

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:46:00 - [2275]
 

Originally by: Aralis
There is no irony at all Ranger.

They don't want to carebear. If their carebearing income sucks it means they have to do it for longer. ANd they'd need to do it a lot to support these ridiculous sov mechanics.

And cost is just the obvious part of the problem. Only a few people like Gnulpie have really latched on to what is so wrong with this sov part of the patch.


600M per month is hardly ridiculous...

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:46:00 - [2276]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 09/11/2009 07:57:00
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Tesal
I don't think 0.0 needs to be equal to a level 4. I wouldn't want 0.0 to even work like a level 4. It just needs to get close to cash flow without high end moons. That way a corp can stay there without running out of isk. I think CCP should probably say the minimum corp size they are figuring, and show a path to cash flow, including all the major costs. If they can't do that, that is a problem.

If a corp can gut it out, they can start getting into cap ships, and get some high ends, and crappy nerfed high ends are still pretty decent. I also remind Goons especially that of the low sec high ends, those moons are abused to support the big 0.0 powers in addition to the 0.0 moons. Moons are a great isk fountain for a corp, but they are a terribly abused mechanic. This has been paying for their fuel and cyno jammers and cap fleets and ship replacement. Without those fat high ends, you are in a similar position cash wise even if the Sov part of the patch is delayed. so delaying the Sov portion of the patch will only forstall the abandoning of space.

Part of the pain of this patch is you figuring what you will do without enough isk from moons.

The Goon tears however make me believe this patch will work to break up entrenched powers.


Noone in this thread has been complaining about moon goo. The main complaint is that personal income in null sec is crap now. And at best if you pay your huge montly sove bill, its equal to level 4s. That is the complaint. And if you think thats fine just go back to running your level 4s and dont bother yourself with null sec discussion.


I call it like I see it.

Personal income is not the problem, corp and alliance level income is the issue. On the corp and alliance level, you have to be able to pay for Sov infrastructure, ship replacement, POS and POS gear, cap ships and so on. These costs are substantial, and if you can't pool resources effectively, you can't get it to work.

Its irrelevant if players support themselves as individuals, leadership won't have time to rat usually, and will have to front the costs for POS gear, fuel, equipment and the cost of a ship replacement program. That takes billions even for a small alliance. So unless you can get to cash flow, what leader is not going to eternally bleed cash to support their alliance? It doesn't work. It leaves them working all the time just so other people can play.

How individual players get their isk is of secondary importance frankly, because if you can't even get set up as a corp or alliance in 0.0, earning a living there as an individual is impossible.

*edit
I would add that the place where personal income enters, is tax, that only affects killing rats, nothing else, not mining, not wormholes, nothing. The only other corp/alliance income source is moons. Other income sources exist, but don't dump isk directly into the corp wallet easily. Maximum tax I could charge is 20% probably, 40% is too high to keep players. The rewards/upgrades will never be able to make up for a situation where a 40% tax is required for the corp to stay in 0.0.

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:50:00 - [2277]
 

Originally by: Tesal
I don't think 0.0 needs to be equal to a level 4. I wouldn't want 0.0 to even work like a level 4. It just needs to get close to cash flow without high end moons. That way a corp can stay there without running out of isk. I think CCP should probably say the minimum corp size they are figuring, and show a path to cash flow, including all the major costs. If they can't do that, that is a problem.
Nobody is saying they want it to work like a level 4. What we are saying is that bigger alliances NEED alot of space because the overwhelming majority of space is not worth getting into a ship to belt rat in. The majority of probe-able complexes and anoms aren't worth running. Even mining isn't nearly as profitable as doing a level 4. There is a general lack of ISK in nullsec for the average player. All the while, nullsec has the hazards of lawless space, it's not always hazardous but the chance of getting killed in nullsec far outstrip the hazards of getting killed in empire.

Originally by: Tesal
If a corp can gut it out, they can start getting into cap ships, and get some high ends, and crappy nerfed high ends are still pretty decent. I also remind Goons especially that of the low sec high ends, those moons are abused to support the big 0.0 powers in addition to the 0.0 moons. Moons are a great isk fountain for a corp, but they are a terribly abused mechanic. This has been paying for their fuel and cyno jammers and cap fleets and ship replacement. Without those fat high ends, you are in a similar position cash wise even if the Sov part of the patch is delayed. so delaying the Sov portion of the patch will only forstall the abandoning of space.
If you think that anyone outside a large alliance or powerbloc is going to have a shot at r64's, you are smoking crack. Even worse is that now the r32's will be in high demand from these larger entities as their value is drastically increased thus removing more income from smaller entities. So you can just remove your Moon-Goo argument right there.

Originally by: Tesal
Part of the pain of this patch is you figuring what you will do without enough isk from moons.
Part of it, yes. The biggest issue that sov-holding alliances have isn't moon-goo. We all knew the passive income stuff was ridiculous and we all saw the change coming. However, that's not even close to what the arguments are originating from. We, space-holding alliances, want to see actual benefits from upgrading our space. As it stands, the upgrades benefit a very small handful of individuals and cost a great deal to maintain.

Originally by: Tesal
The Goon tears however make me believe this patch will work to break up entrenched powers.
It's funny because it's not only Goons that are thinking this will be a bad move.

I'm for alot of changes in 0.0.
I'm for more combat in 0.0.
I'm for more entities owning space in 0.0.

The changes they listed don't make it particularly attractive to live in 0.0. Contrary to popular Empire-dweller belief, large Alliances don't take large swaths of space for looks. It's more a function of the ISK making prospects, or lack thereof, of the regions they take and yes, sometimes for a buffer used to slow down an attacker.

Take for instance ATLAS space. We currently control Omist, Detorid and Insmother. When you take a close look at those regions we have 4, maybe 5 constellations that have decent enough true-sec to warrant moving a BS to it and using even T1 ammo to rat in. Now, about 2/3 of the systems contained within those constellations have barely enough belts to house 1 ratter. That leaves us with about 1/3 that MIGHT be able to sustain 2 ratters. So that's maybe 50 ratters being sustained by 3 entire regions. Lets not mention that it takes a good 30-45 minutes (if not more) to groom a system before it comes to the 30-40m/hour mark.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:50:00 - [2278]
 

Quote:
Why would anyone in their right mind pay for space that generates income to a mediocre mission runner in empire when there is so much more risk. It makes no sense.


Why do they do it now for even less? Smile

And you will be making at least as much as what has been purported to be one of the most lucrative occupations in the game. Lets not change the level 4 mission runners income for "outlandish" to "mediocre" just because this thread isn't about how overly profitable Empire is for a change.

I'm making a concession here by the way. The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong. For the purposes of this discussion however we should probably keep it simple and say its equal.


Scouty McScoutersen
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:51:00 - [2279]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
The truth is that if you live in 0.0 even under the current conditions and only make as much as a level 4 mission runner you are doing something seriously wrong.




no that really isn't the truth, you don't know what the **** you're talking about holy ****

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.09 07:52:00 - [2280]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Tesal
I don't think 0.0 needs to be equal to a level 4. I wouldn't want 0.0 to even work like a level 4. It just needs to get close to cash flow without high end moons. That way a corp can stay there without running out of isk. I think CCP should probably say the minimum corp size they are figuring, and show a path to cash flow, including all the major costs. If they can't do that, that is a problem.

If a corp can gut it out, they can start getting into cap ships, and get some high ends, and crappy nerfed high ends are still pretty decent. I also remind Goons especially that of the low sec high ends, those moons are abused to support the big 0.0 powers in addition to the 0.0 moons. Moons are a great isk fountain for a corp, but they are a terribly abused mechanic. This has been paying for their fuel and cyno jammers and cap fleets and ship replacement. Without those fat high ends, you are in a similar position cash wise even if the Sov part of the patch is delayed. so delaying the Sov portion of the patch will only forstall the abandoning of space.

Part of the pain of this patch is you figuring what you will do without enough isk from moons.

The Goon tears however make me believe this patch will work to break up entrenched powers.


Noone in this thread has been complaining about moon goo. The main complaint is that personal income in null sec is crap now. And at best if you pay your huge montly sove bill, its equal to level 4s. That is the complaint. And if you think thats fine just go back to running your level 4s and dont bother yourself with null sec discussion.


I call it like I see it.

Personal income is not the problem, corp and alliance level income is the issue. On the corp and alliance level, you have to be able to pay for Sov infrastructure, ship replacement, POS and POS gear, cap ships and so on. These costs are substantial, and if you can't pool resources effectively, you can't get it to work.

Its irrelevant if players support themselves as individuals, leadership won't have time to rat usually, and will have to front the costs for POS gear, fuel, equipment and the cost of a ship replacement program. That takes billions even for a small alliance. So unless you can get to cash flow, what leader is not going to eternally bleed cash to support their alliance? It doesn't work. It leaves them working all the time just so other people can play.

How individual players get their isk is of secondary importance frankly, because if you can't even get set up as a corp or alliance in 0.0, earning a living there as an individual is impossible.


And this is why large alliances will be the only ones left, every major alliance has seen this coming from miles away and hoarded as much ISK as possible, most larger alliances will continue on like before - the only differences being fewer jumpbridges and cynojammers. War will become even rarer because no one will have the money to contest sov and no one will want to because of these ****ty uprades and almost every system now having a negative value - the reason large alliances hold so much space is because so much of it sucks so badly.


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