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Mistres Tor
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:09:00 - [2011]
 

Honest Smedley
I have RL and max 1h/day to play , and all what you listed i can't do in that time , maby a lv 4 mision in 1 hour . About production ... all my slot are for corp and i like to heav some isk for PVP

Second EXODUS incoming

lv4 agents in EMPIRE be ready :) I'm coming

Dualshock
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:09:00 - [2012]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Are you talking simply in terms of isk/hr from combat PvE? How about 0.0 WH running compared to L4 mission running? How about trade/manufacturing opportunities in 0.0 compared to high sec? Perhaps individual moon mining / reacting now that POSes aren't required for SoV?

To answer the isk/hr question you pose:
For the average corporation member within an alliance? Not necessarily.
For contributing corporations within a successful alliance? Yes.
For a successful alliance as a whole? Yes.

Sharpen your question and you may get an answer. At the moment your just mission-runner baiting.


grats on either not reading or not understanding the thrust of this entire thread

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:12:00 - [2013]
 

Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


To answer the isk/hr question you pose:
For the average corporation member within an alliance? Not necessarily.



if 0.0 should not be as profitable for the average corp member as highsec is, 0.0 is worthless.



Your viewpoint is too narrow.

0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.

This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.

0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.

If all you care about is profit and isk-making then you probably shouldn't have left the hisec mission hubs in the first place.



chiisai sakana
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:13:00 - [2014]
 

Edited by: chiisai sakana on 08/11/2009 21:13:23
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
It's a source of great amusement as to the number of posts in this thread that are from goonswarm/atlas. They're doing 90% of the whining.

In typical CCP style CCP has managed to come up with something completely unique and different, much to the complete dismay of most of the players involved.

The fact that maintaining sov requires pure ISK is a very interesting move by CCP. Sov is no longer able to be subsidized by macro ice miners (as you can do with POSes) and that sucking sound is CONCORD hoovering up the hundreds of billions of ISK that the alliances hold so dear.

Indeed, those who want to hold space will *really* want to hold it in the future.

One funny note is that once again we're chained to the hard limit of ISK/hour that is L4 missions in empire. Straight away everyone has compared how profitable 0.0 is vs. L4 highsec missions. I made note of this limit when addressing w-space and the cost of T3 ships due to the hard limit of L4 mission profitability but everyone told me to shut up. Now where are we? Right back at the same spot. L4 missions are once again providing a hard floor as to how much something should be worth in order to spend the effort doing it.


You too fail spectacularly to understand the risk vs reward function. W-space is a place where you can possibly make more money than in L4 missions and the risks are greater, logistics are straight from hell and intelligence local is shining with its nonexistence. thus you can make more money.

Why make money when you can make more, easily and with little to no risk instead of huge risk.

"Kowloon Walled City is fascinating. If I recall, it's an area of Hong Kong only about the size of a few city blocks that neither the Chinese nor British claimed ownership of, so it became a lawless place of anarchy and people just haphazardly stacked homes on top of each other." to quote reality.

In that place you could probably get away with murder much like in 0.0 but would anyone want to move there?
So lets take our Lawyer subject "P. Bateman" who wants to kill people and wear shiny suits.
Would he rather make much money with lawyer stuff in the habitable part of the city than less than that in the Kowloon city with the added possibility of getting killed himself.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:14:00 - [2015]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Your viewpoint is too narrow.

0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.

This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.

0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.

If all you care about is profit and isk-making then you probably shouldn't have left the hisec mission hubs in the first place.




The people you just described are already in 0.0. So Dominion will bring into 0.0 how many more players?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:14:00 - [2016]
 

Honor, glory, ~good fights~

Gabriel Youngs
Caldari
The Lunatic Collective
Corcoran State
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:17:00 - [2017]
 

Here is an idea, get rid of sov as a mechanic all together. The powerblocks are going to deny access to "thier space" regardless of sov mechanics. The only thing that made POS bashing a requirement was tying the POS to the dot on the map. So drop sov all together. Allow system upgrades that make it more profitable than high sec, (WH spawns would be nice, all those ABCs and sleepers)

Make it so that when you take a system it keeps its upgrades, and allow enemies to raid your system and destroy your upgrades, that would encourage fighting over systems instead of moons.

Make it viable for null sec industry to actually function (more production slots, more research etc...) so that there is less need for JB's except as a tactical advantage for large Alliances (which I think they were intended in the first place)

Taxing all activity in the system is a great idea, I endorse it.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:19:00 - [2018]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.


Yes most of 0.0 is not deserted at all but crowded systems.


Quote:

This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.


Indeed noone in 0.0 alliances have empire alts to make isk.

Quote:

0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.


Confirming that having my alliance name on a sov map is why i live in 0.0


Kieselguhr Kid
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:20:00 - [2019]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


To answer the isk/hr question you pose:
For the average corporation member within an alliance? Not necessarily.



if 0.0 should not be as profitable for the average corp member as highsec is, 0.0 is worthless.



Your viewpoint is too narrow.

0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.

This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.

0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.

If all you care about is profit and isk-making then you probably shouldn't have left the hisec mission hubs in the first place.





well spoken by prominent 0.0 presence Jade Constantine, clearly hoping that post-Dominion Star Fraction will have a place in some forgotten corner of Delve

except that bored goons with no sov to hold and no real reason to go to 90% of our space anymore except to ~good fights~ small fry trying to sneak past us are much more likely to camp Star Fraction into your various hubs than anything else

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:21:00 - [2020]
 

jade is under the delusion than most people are like him and strive only to have their name appear on a generated space MMO map.

De'Vadder
Minmatar
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:22:00 - [2021]
 

Edited by: De''Vadder on 08/11/2009 21:31:42
I know it has been mentioned before but what if the sovholder would get something from each bounty earned in his systems?
Im thinking of something along the lines of 1/2 of the rats bounty gets taxed by the killers corp and 1/2 of the rats bounty gets taxed by the alliance that holds sov in the system it happened.
Obviously i just guessed those numbers and i suppose empires would need to take some tax like this as well, not sure though.
This would surely help NRDS organisations and give them some reasons to upgrade your systems and wouldnt bother NBSI either, it would just make the amount of ISK the corps need to pay to the alliance a little less.
Though it still doesnt adress that for more than one NRDS 0.0 region to work, they NEED to be somehow more profitable than highsec lvl4, has been mentioned one hundred times but its just stupid that the best way for an individual to make money is at the same time the most save.

Oh and could the Dev BLOG get updated as the thread goes on? Nobody reads through 67 pages and thereby most people wont know of any CCP responds.

And another good point i read about, if its technically impossible to place agents in player outposts, why not place them in ships, for example next to upgrade hubs? Or at beacons? Thats impossible too?

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:23:00 - [2022]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Honor, glory, ~good fights~


To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.

fyp

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:25:00 - [2023]
 

Jade should be quiet when adults are talking.

Aadi Grox
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:28:00 - [2024]
 

Yes yes you should be able to make more isk in empire then 0.0!

haha jade please please shut up for a while.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:30:00 - [2025]
 

Originally by: De'Vadder
I know it has been mentioned before but what if the sovholder would get something from each bounty earned in his systems?
Im thinking of something along the lines of 1/2 of the rats bounty gets taxed by the killers corp and 1/2 of the rats bounty gets taxed by the alliance that holds sov in the system it happened.
Obviously i just guessed those numbers and i suppose empires would need to take some tax like this as well, not sure though.


Yeah I see thousands of people just waiting to go to 0.0 where they can be killed in a number of ways just to make 2 million ISK an hour after taxes Rolling Eyes

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:30:00 - [2026]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0.


afaik proposed changes suggest 0.0 should become PVE heaven

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.


afaik, in eve today that is what ppl do on CAOD not in 0.0, look at your example.

Originally by: Jade Constantine
This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.


again, it has everything to do with ISK. The ability to generate ISK in 0.0 is severely diminished with proposed changes, and not only that but the risk of even atempting to do so are much higher then in empire doing for example lvl4's (that just accidentally gives you the same amount of isk risk free)

Originally by: Jade Constantine
0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.


To leave imperialist legacy requires you to gain vast resources that give you power to do so, apart from other requirements like wits. All wars in human history where fought over resources (tho not always publicly admitted), countries even regions where held cause of it.

Sloth Arnini
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:33:00 - [2027]
 

Quote:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


To add something constructive on the subject of agents in space. I know something similar was proposed around P60 but what the hell.

Clearly it isn't a great chore to introduce agents in space. I believe some were added in Apocrypha, and I know for a fact that some were added whenever boosters were introduced. So why not have an upgrade plugged into that hub that spawns an agent? Tie it to the existing tiers of upgrades, so at L1, you get an L1 agent, at L2 and L2 agent etc. Of course, he's a Q20 agent.

Perhaps you get racially flavoured agents. The upgrade might provide a Caldari Navy, Amarr Navy, Federation Navy or Republic Fleet agent (chosen when upgrade is brought). Perhaps more corps could be added later (maybe even EOM!). This eliminates the problems of pirate agents (poor standings from killing all the belt rats, high sec issues). Perhaps an alliance pays a monthly fee for him. They do not need to provide direct access to the LP store, though their missions give LP for their corp. It's hardly a chore to go to Empire to cash in your LPs every now and then, much as one might pop into empire occasionally to farm their RP.

At the very least, you're only allowed one set of L1-4 agents/hub. Maybe 1/constellation. The agent spawns just outside the hub so he's easy to find. Maybe instead of a "ship", he operates from a tough bunker to prevent people killing him for lols. But it has all the properties of an agent ship except that its really tough, and maybe shoots back with big guns. He offers combat missions to all who meet his standing requirements. He does not despawn when the hub changes hands. Because of the existing rules where lower sec=higher rewards, he should already be paying out more than anyone in Motsu. Of course, alone he isn't going to draw people out from Motsu, but at the very least, he deals with the question quoted at the beginning of this post. And we'll still have our +2 guaranteed anomalies etc.

Very valuable isk fountains are not necessarily bad for the game. They provoke alliance conflicts. The advantage with an agent isk fountain rather than a moon (within CCP's current stated objectives for 0.0) is that, in order to make money from him, people have to actually do missions for him. So he weans an alliance off passively harvested moongoo, offers guaranteed bread and butter income for alliance membership and adds considerable value to a system. Because my proposal would limit the number of agents that could be installed in a system (or better yet, a constellation). Maybe he even provokes a few fights because Alliance A wants a Caldari Navy agent and doesn't have one and doesn't have anywhere to install one.

I'd like to end with the observation that the schadenfreude of Jade and his crowd is laughable. I know for a fact that Atlas has already made decisions about space it is going to abandon. And it's not a slice here and there. As many people have said more eloquently than I, we actually don't care how many systems are lit under our name. Atlas is the archetype of the current alliance sprawl AND WE DO NOT WANT TO SPRAWL. We do it for political and resource reasons. If the carrots are big enough, we will consolidate into a smaller area, and thank CCP for letting us relinquish outlying territories that we currently have to pay for. What other people do with the space that is freed up and how we would respond to them is just part of the sandbox.

If we can make a similar amount of isk with a smaller territory than we currently have, I honestly doubt we'd actually object to seeing newcomers set up.

General Ranchor
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:35:00 - [2028]
 

Yeah that's right CCP! You *****slap those nullsec-***gots for actually trying to achieve something! Who are they to try and make an advanced game with politics and **** when THEY SHOULD BE RATTING AND MINING!


Also, conspiracy tiem:
CCP is turning EVE Online into a singleplayer-game because they need the server power for TLDR514.

Inferno Styx
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:36:00 - [2029]
 

to make 0.0 attractive you honestly need to make about 50% more then high sec at the least. If you can make 50% more isk then you'll see lots of people running out to 0.0.

Other ways to make combat more effective imho:

Capability to capture the hub.

Capability to destroy your own hub if your gonna lose the system. Also a way to prevent it from being destroyed.

reduce logistics chain requirements by 80%-90%

I'll add more later as I think of them.

Hyperforce99
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:37:00 - [2030]
 

I'd say that if an alliance loses controll of a system the build up stats on a system should decrease by say 1/10th. But certainly not go back to scratch.

If you want people to fight over territory there should allways be a nice big fish to catch.

I was also wondering if exploration sites and the like will (with increased system stats) also spawn better and bigger resources.

Antir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:38:00 - [2031]
 

Increasing rat bounties and putting belt rats into analomalies still seems like a good quick fix.
CCP why no love for ratting, sure it's mind numbing but it's a good taxable source of income.

L'Artest
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:40:00 - [2032]
 

Edited by: L''Artest on 08/11/2009 21:41:24
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?


To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.

You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.

The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.

Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.



Great, now read the thread and realize that there have been some great suggestions on how to fix it, and that CCP agreed with a pile of them and is probably going over what they are doing wrong.

Your no content trolling isn't appreciated here. Do you even know what 0.0 is like now? Maybe you should experience it first before criticizing it.

Also regarding your post on this page, everything in this game costs money. Not everyone trade e-sex for items here.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:41:00 - [2033]
 

Quote:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:52:00 - [2034]
 

Originally by: Dharh
YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.

very few alliances allow moon goo to be an integral part of personal income.

in other words, it sounds like you want moon goo to push earning ISK in 0.0 over the edge, outside of providing income alliances need to hold sov / do reimbursements (you're dumb)


De'Vadder
Minmatar
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:52:00 - [2035]
 

Originally by: Breaker77

Yeah I see thousands of people just waiting to go to 0.0 where they can be killed in a number of ways just to make 2 million ISK an hour after taxes Rolling Eyes


Thats why i added that 1/2 of the bounty gets taxed by one side, 1/2 by the other, that means that you still pay taxes for the bounty once.
Ill explain it: Lets say a rat gives you 1m of bounty. You are in a corp that takes 20% tax. Currently that would leave you with 800k. Lets say you did it in the space of an NRDS alliance that has the 'killed rat in my space'-tax set to 10%.
Now 500k would get taxed by your corp at 20% and 500k would be taxed by the sov holder at 10% leaving you at 850k. It wouldnt cut at all in the individual carebears income but its corp, thats true, and i understand that cutting every highsec corps income into half wouldnt work, i guess.
But maybe if a Alliance indeed takes that tax first and it would most of the time be like 5%? 95% of a 0.0 rat in an upgraded system might be better than some other rat, but again, the main problem is that when it comes to individual carebearing, nothing beats lvl4 what is imho one of the biggest problems of 0.0 altogether.

Sethur Blackcoat
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:53:00 - [2036]
 

Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 08/11/2009 21:53:31
Originally by: Dharh
YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.
Sorry but those are the two most profitable reliable ways of isk generation in 0.0. vOv

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.08 21:54:00 - [2037]
 

Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The fact that maintaining sov requires pure ISK is a very interesting move by CCP. Sov is no longer able to be subsidized by macro ice miners (as you can do with POSes) and that sucking sound is CONCORD hoovering up the hundreds of billions of ISK that the alliances hold so dear.


Why would we hold sov in any of Delve/Querious except the handful of JB systems we need for logistics? We're not going to, so the isk sink you're suggesting doesn't exist.

Quote:
Indeed, those who want to hold space will *really* want to hold it in the future.


Correct. We won't hold sov. We'll just shoot anyone who tries to move into the D/Q backwater areas. They won't be able to leave without getting past us, won't be able to import anything and won't be able to PvE without running into cloaked goons, but if they really want to hold sov and spend billions of isk on useless systems they could probably do it for a few weeks before we get bored and drop caps. Drunk and Stoned managed to sit in their one Delve system for 3 months *now* before anyone cared enough so you can expect much the same thing, except that Drunk and Stoned didn't pay CCP several billion isk for the privilege of upgrading their system before we took it back.

Quote:
One funny note is that once again we're chained to the hard limit of ISK/hour that is L4 missions in empire.


maybe CCP should address that limit instead of proposing that we spend 100b+ upgrading all of Delve to be slightly worse than highsec when we have several NPC L4 agents in the middle of our space as it is

and do tell how small gang pvp is going to flourish in G-TT with 100 GS and Rebellion crammed into it 24/7


You're preaching to the wrong guy noob.

You spent your entire post whining and telling me about just how much you're not going to hold space or pay fees etc.

I know you won't. I certainly wouldn't.

Quote:
Why would we hold sov in any of Delve/Querious except the handful of JB systems we need for logistics? We're not going to, so the isk sink you're suggesting doesn't exist
.

I'm saying if anyone did, it would, but of course no one will. Wasted effort pointing that out to me.


Quote:
maybe CCP should address that limit instead of proposing that we spend 100b+ upgrading all of Delve to be slightly worse than highsec when we have several NPC L4 agents in the middle of our space as it is

and do tell how small gang pvp is going to flourish in G-TT with 100 GS and Rebellion crammed into it 24/7


DUHHHHHHH. Again, you're not telling me anything I don't already know/get. Why am I going to tell you how small gang PVP is going to flourish? It won't. I know it won't. Most players know it won't. You're whining at the wrong guy.

The 0.0 alliances are all butthurt over this and it's pretty funny to me personally. The alliances are used to billions in passive income and now CCP is removing that across the board and everyone is being a girl about it. The easy money in 0.0 is going away and it's not coming back. Good. Now all we need is an adjustment to L4s in empire so that it's less profitable to run L4s than it is to live in 0.0 and we're set.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.08 22:00:00 - [2038]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.

If all you care about is profit and isk-making then you probably shouldn't have left the hisec mission hubs in the first place.

You're delusional and fail to appreciate the amount of effort that is required to hold sov, something you have absolutely no experience doing.

If it were the case that highsec was the endgame in ISK earning via NPC means, then 0.0 would be just as barren as lowsec. It just so happens that 0.0 has very profitable items still left (r64s, and the 10/10 complex that should be removed in BJD4), although r64 value will be decimated come Dominion.

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.11.08 22:01:00 - [2039]
 

Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: Dharh
YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.

very few alliances allow moon goo to be an integral part of personal income.

in other words, it sounds like you want moon goo to push earning ISK in 0.0 over the edge, outside of providing income alliances need to hold sov / do reimbursements (you're dumb)




That's the status quo. 0.0 space is about equivalent to empire for individual isk earning (funny enough, the places were the real isk is from pve content (as opposed to building/trading) is wh-space and lowsec (yes, lowsec: level 5's and fw missions are hugely lucrative)). Moon mining IS what puts 0.0 over the top and yes, its better for the individual if the isk goes to ship reimbursements and capital programs (as opposed to supercap programs and director RMT).

This will not change: moon minerals aren't being nerfed if you look at the numbers; the high value is just shifting from dysprosium and prom to technetium (bottleneck will be just as bad if not worse, so value will be just as high if not higher).

As long as there is huge collective income, individual income can be equivalent and its still worth it to be there if your corporation uses it for the common good. Because of CCP's math fail with the moon mineral changes, this will not change. I'd accept your argument if the moon mineral bottleneck/overvalue problem was actually getting fixed, but, its not. Despite the equivalent values for individuals it still makes sense for individuals to go out to 0.0 now because of the collective benefit for their group and that won't change.


Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.08 22:03:00 - [2040]
 

Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 08/11/2009 22:13:34
I read 67 pages of this, and the first thing I have to post when I get to the bottom of it is...a post making fun of Jade Constantine. FML.

Originally by: Jade Constantine
You need to stop listening to the spam and consider the arguments. You have it directly backwards. Losing the landscape of cyno-jammers and omni-claims will make 0.0 much more accessible for small gang pvp.

As indeed will the increased need for standing alliances to earn money in actual space.



You are, as ever, letting your prejudices in favour of your personal play style run away with your brain here. Most people in this thread - yes, even the Goons - agree that alliances being forced to scale back their claims is good. Losing the universal cyno jam is less popular, but most of the people who have expressed anything other than sticker shock seem to like that as well.

The thing is, if you want alliances to scale back, you have to let them scale back. If Goons are going to shed 60% of their space and fall back to Delve only(which I think is about the smallest you can reasonably expect them to shrink to), they need to be able to support a 5000-man alliance out of one region - reimbursement programs, capital construction, Titans, player ships, jump freighters, ratting ships, sniper HAC gangs, the works, on an individual, corporate, and alliance level. And while the Goons have agents in NPC Delve to fall back on, most alliances don't, so I'll ignore them for a second.

This proposal doesn't give alliances the money they need. Even if anomalies become everything that everyone wants them to be, you'll still get maybe 5-10 players in the average system. Unless just about every system in Delve hits max upgrades, it won't be able to support GoonSwarm. In other words, no matter what the sov claims say, or what the cyno jammer configuration looks like, they'll own pretty much as much space as they do now.

As for the bit about small groups, you seem to have missed the point. When people talk about small groups in 0.0, they don't mean roving gangs of "guerrillas". They mean a 200-man alliance holding a couple systems. Small gangs will always be able to move around, and occasionally find fights - I agree that they need more targets for them, but that wasn't the point of Dominion. The point of Dominion from the point of view of small players was supposed to be allowing small groups to hold space, not to fly around and gank/get ganked. Anyone can fly around, but at present, nobody under about 1000 members can hold so much as a system without big friends. That is what this was supposed to fix, but unless it actually succeeds at shrinking big alliances(which the current proposal won't do, because it doesn't let them move inward and still have anything to do), then it won't loosen anything up, no matter what the coloured dots say. That is why this expansion fails - not because it makes GoonSwarm's life harder, but because it makes Random 300-Man Wannabes Alliance's life no easier. It's the status quo with a hat.

Edit: I'm not normally a fan of bandwagons, but this is a good and noble one.
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


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