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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:46:00 - [1921]
 

Originally by: Anahid Brutus
**** it, i'll do your job for you.

First off, you need objectives that people want to fight over. Not useless grindy **** that absolutely NO ONE wants to do and can't even be fought over, so here's the solution:

- Leave R64s as large scale alliance objectives. If the income is too high(which it probably is), simply lower the dysp/prom reqs on T2 construction jobs. Problem solved. No need to tear apart the whole system with your terrible, terrible large-scale switch-around solution that will just frustrate players. No need for your completely terrible and overly complex alchemy either.

- Reintroduce static plexes as small-gang objectives. Active income, can be fought over without a 200 man fleet. Worth the effort compared to L4s in empire, reduce the number of them if they aren't being fought over.

- For individual income then make deep 0.0, ie. 2-3 carrier jumps out of low-sec, all perfect true sec, increase rat spawn rates/quality/bounties by 50%(no frig/cruiser spawns 50 jumps from jita, ~3m bounty rats), make all BS rats scram you(if you're out of scram range then they tank really hard, so no kiting) and now 0.0 is kinda risky, yet rewarding enough to be worth the effort. You definitely won't have solo ravens being able to rat and just cloak up whenever someone comes through, but some active, organized defense and you'll be making isk worth your while.


Sov shouldn't be important since let's be honest, no one really gives a ****(money motivates people, not some gay towers or something), and as such it really shouldn't be the focus, but:
- remove cyno jammers
- make the sov holding structure something with dual reinforcement timers that orbits the sun, no maint costs needed, but it needs to be reinforceable by a 20 man bs fleet in a reasonable amount of time. the limit on the size of empires will be that disrupting sov will be doable by small groups of players, not some arbitrary maintenance fees.(don't make it an outpost since people will just sit on undock with their carriers like big gays)

oh and kill exploration/wormspace, that **** is just anti-social.
b*mp

Antir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:51:00 - [1922]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 08/11/2009 18:39:19
Quote:
Edited by: emotua on 07/11/2009 18:59:57
With current prices!

Let's say your currently inside an alliance that needs to be claiming 100 system with a size of 1800 in-game characters, have around 40 systems as JBs to get to empire/allies/near baddies and back.

Hell, we have 160 systems for 2600 people.


Comes dominion, you want to keep that empire you acquired through sweat, tears, and blood. and well, since those r64 ain't gonna pay the bills anymore, we might need a gazillion common goo moons, safe jammed, network infrastucture to move all that, a gazillion belts to rat that upkeep, so your gonna need to keep what you have etc.

well, upkeep indeed... So you would be looking at around :

60*(20+10+4+25)+40*(20+10+4+25+12.5) = ( 3540 + 2860 ) million isk/day = 6.4 billion isk/day => 192 billion isk/30days of JUST paying upkeep.

Not included is the fuel still needed for towers, etc...

BUT you have 1800 people! well actually probably more like 720 real one ( 2 real people / 5 chars | 2 main, 3 alts - average ).
Out of those 720, probably 40% of that mass is really active ( yeah that's a very good number... )

=> 288 active real people => 192 billion isk/288 = 666.66 million isk/month/person ( see! EVIL!) just for the upkeep.


Now According to somebody, you can make 7 million isk every 30 minutes! OMG, we are saved! to the RAVENS!

Well, hold on here, that would require 666/7*30 = 2854 minutes or around 47 hours of your online time every month just to do YOUR PART! would you?

Now, you also need to pay for your ships, fuel for caps, skills, quafe, exotic dancers etc...

oh and wait, it's actually 0.0 here, you actually need some time to defend, attack people, PVP, right?!! what a lot of us pay/play the game for, not a second job.


Dude. S*F* just S*F*.

You state in your post the actual numbers of people an alliance might have with a reasonable amount of precision and then you have the balls to try to validate why its ok to control upwards of 100 to in your case 160 systems?Laughing

Just GTF* of these forums and don't ever come back.

To everyone else, the reason CCP is doing this is to force peeps like this to back down to a reasonable number of controllable systems so others can have a chance. Atlas couldn't defend that number of systems without a powerbloc if their lives depended on it. That is just a singular reason why the dev's have stated EXACTLY why what Atlas and the rest of the alliances are doing is making the game mind numbingly plain and not what they really wanted. I totally agree. If you dont like this then quit, no seriously dont argue with me just quit. This is one of the best changes ive ever seen and i have been in 0.0 for years.

I am so sick and tired of diplomacy controlling space and not true sweat which is what it will require now not only in isk but in fighting.


If you think this is going to kill big alliances or power blocs or diplomacy you're an idiot all this will do is reduce the number of systems with sov in them not the number alliances claim as their own, it's the small alliaces/newcomers who lose out here.

Armina Dottir
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:53:00 - [1923]
 

Originally by: Slobodanka

There will be no opportunities for new players in 0.0 with this patch. Even if you gave them free ships and forced them to go to 0.0 current powerblocks will definitely not allow them to stay, even if the system does not have alliance name in top left corner. Goons will still control 160+ systems, atlas will still control their space, NC will still control the whole north... Only empire people will not be able to see it unless they look on those pretty .jpg maps in CAOD.

Now return under your bridge and think of a way to get more people into 0.0.


This. Why invest billions if any big bully can just show up and take it all away cause you didn't pay them any rent? So while I agree that CCP prolly wants to give more ppl the opporunity to grab a piece of the pie it won't happen.
One way to avoid this, might be to lower costs and work with a coefficient that multiplies the cost per extra system you own. This would lower the entry for new alliances to 0.0 and they'd try it multiple times, cause the costs are low to start with.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:56:00 - [1924]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
Honestly i was hoping to see upgrades more along these lines. i always though of 0.0 as being like the wild west. Where you venture out to dangerous lands to get shot at, control some territory make money, and occasionaly find gold.

Concord Bounty Hunter Angent Relay - Allows LP gain for killing pirates in nullsec, create a pvp geared concord lp store

Bounty increase - High activity in your system has driven away all but the most dangerous pirates. 15% bonus to pirate bounty per level

Respawn Speed - High activity in this region has increased pirate activity in the system. 10% bonus to pirate respawn speed per level.

Pirate hideout Locator - Each level increases the chance of locating rare hidden pirate hideout anomalies. These danger pirates do not drop faction items but have significantly increased bounty.

Ship quality increase - Having Faced larger ships constantly, pirates begin to only appear in more difficult ships. Each level reduces the chance of a non battleship spawn by 20%



Give me these changes, not some ****ty level 4 quality anomalies that wont actually be level quality income due to, comeptition, rat quality, scan time, warping around, hostiles in system shutting down income, etc etc



YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Pagey
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:57:00 - [1925]
 

gently caress 65 pages did devs respond to the "less profitable than l4s" everyone was spamming last night

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:57:00 - [1926]
 

Edited by: Mkiaki on 08/11/2009 19:03:57
Stop Dominion, at least until this has been sorted.

Pagey
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:58:00 - [1927]
 

well i guess the post above mine answers that

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:02:00 - [1928]
 

Quote:
If you think this is going to kill big alliances or power blocs or diplomacy you're an idiot all this will do is reduce the number of systems with sov in them not the number alliances claim as their own, it's the small alliaces/newcomers who lose out here.


ok let me...sum this up for you butterfly brain. Even IF this change does not create the desired change CCP wants they WILLLLLLLLLL make further changes. What they are wanting to do is fundamentally change sov mechanics and they are NOT about to just change it to something that most of you morons in this thread think will be more of the same.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:02:00 - [1929]
 

It has probably been overlooked by most people, because of focusing so hard on the details ... but the devblog and this feedback thread are really not what they seem to be.

CCP's Upkeep devblog which shook things up so badly, is really not a devblog. It is a SPRINT review. The feedback thread is the SPRINT backlog.

Because the timeline of the SCRUM for Dominion does not allow for this oh so vital element of SCRUM (the requirements churn can proove itself to be incorrect, impractical, or impossible given time and resources) we are now facing a situation where CCP can only alter cosmetic elements, and has to consciously ignore the structural problems.


Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:03:00 - [1930]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 08/11/2009 18:39:19
To everyone else, the reason CCP is doing this is to force peeps like this to back down to a reasonable number of controllable systems so others can have a chance. Atlas couldn't defend that number of systems without a powerbloc if their lives depended on it. That is just a singular reason why the dev's have stated EXACTLY why what Atlas and the rest of the alliances are doing is making the game mind numbingly plain and not what they really wanted. I totally agree. If you dont like this then quit, no seriously dont argue with me just quit. This is one of the best changes ive ever seen and i have been in 0.0 for years.

I am so sick and tired of diplomacy controlling space and not true sweat which is what it will require now not only in isk but in fighting.


I donīt think you truely understand how it works tbh..

Just because my alliance owns Geminate region, doesnīt mean we have sov in all the systems. Does this mean that other people can just come and grind our belts or plexes? Ofcourse not, and why would Dominion change that? Your right, it wonīt..

Prognosys
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:05:00 - [1931]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
Edited by: Mkiaki on 08/11/2009 19:03:57
Stop Dominion, at least until this has been sorted.


I like how this post used to say 'raise the costs, you make enough on moon goo anyway' or something along those lines.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:06:00 - [1932]
 

Originally by: Ap0ll0n

I donīt think you truely understand how it works tbh..

Just because my alliance owns Geminate region, doesnīt mean we have sov in all the systems. Does this mean that other people can just come and grind our belts or plexes? Ofcourse not, and why would Dominion change that? Your right, it wonīt..


good call. I wouldn't pay for geminate either :V

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:09:00 - [1933]
 

i said it will give the opportunity and the chance for others to come in. I also said it will most likely reduce the size of the larger space holding alliances.

Jim Bob and his 5 buddies running in to take some of that space....will that go well? hell if i know all i care about and want to see is 1500 man alliances that actually number 300 that control 100+ systems is stupid. Oh and i dont give a good cr*p if you "bled, sweat and cried" for the systems pre patch or not ROFL. lets get honest and serious here. its time to get this whine fest going baby. i love what im reading.

Antir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:11:00 - [1934]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Quote:
If you think this is going to kill big alliances or power blocs or diplomacy you're an idiot all this will do is reduce the number of systems with sov in them not the number alliances claim as their own, it's the small alliaces/newcomers who lose out here.


ok let me...sum this up for you butterfly brain. Even IF this change does not create the desired change CCP wants they WILLLLLLLLLL make further changes. What they are wanting to do is fundamentally change sov mechanics and they are NOT about to just change it to something that most of you morons in this thread think will be more of the same.


Let me sum this up for you, the goal of THIS expansion (not later additions) was to get more people from empire to 0.0 and to force large afk empires to shrink. It has so far failed to do this except there will be less sov on the map, the upgrades are a poor lot at best and there is no real incentive for people to leave empire. So tell me how does this expansion do anything to encourage newcomers to 0.0 and give them a decent income?

Slobodanka
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:11:00 - [1935]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Quote:
If you think this is going to kill big alliances or power blocs or diplomacy you're an idiot all this will do is reduce the number of systems with sov in them not the number alliances claim as their own, it's the small alliaces/newcomers who lose out here.


ok let me...sum this up for you butterfly brain. Even IF this change does not create the desired change CCP wants they WILLLLLLLLLL make further changes. What they are wanting to do is fundamentally change sov mechanics and they are NOT about to just change it to something that most of you morons in this thread think will be more of the same.


How can CCP change the mind of bobITs to not go invade goons in delve? How can CCP change the mind of bobby to let Red Alliance back to insmother? And most importantly: How can CCP make me not shoot in the face when I see you jump into a system I fought for and have lost ships and clones over it?
Big guys will not turn into hello kittys on decmber 1st. They will kill you, grief you, plant spies into your corp, reduce your morale, sabotage your industry. They will do their best to make you suffer, not because CCP told them to, but because they can. And because they have fought over the right to do so. So feel free to come into 0.0 in december and try to chase away one of them (and remember to bring lots of caps because cyno jammers will be off; what could possibly go wrong?).

If you want more people into 0.0 you have to use the carrot pšart of your plan. The stick which is meant for big alliances is already in place and big alliances don't object it. What _everyone_ objects is the lack of carrot part. Give empire a reason to come to 0.0. Give them resources, infrastructure and strategical advantages of holding (and now paying) their space.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:11:00 - [1936]
 

Originally by: ceaon

Originally by: Gnulpie

But what do you have as vision? Fixed grinding paths to unlock certain features and forcing people to do things which they don't like

none force you to do so you cry because you have to work for ISK
atm there are "few" ppl in each of 0.0 alliances that fuel and haul all the moon **** and POS warfare stuff you just enjoy their work the ship replacement programs are made because "few" ppl run logistics all day, did u ask them if is fun to fuel POSes ?

adapt or go back to wow



And why would I need to grind for isk at all?

If I can chase off everyone from the part of space where I am and no one attacks me and I can do whatever I like to do there without anyone hindering me there, shouldn't it be 'my' space then until someone else comes and throws me out?

What would I need isk there???

I could have miners mining all the ore I need, I could have the blueprints ready to build stuff, I could have occasionally buy some npc fuel for the pos and the ice I could mine. I could build my ships and I could run radar sites to get datacores to invent the t2 items I want to have. Then what the **** would I need to grind for isk to PAY for my system then?

The only reason why I am forced to leave those systems should be OTHER PLAYERS kicking me out. Not some idiotic 'you can't pay your bill so you are losing your system' message created by an anonymous and artificial system.

IT SHOULD BE THE PLAYERS! And nothing else.

Killljoy
Gallente
Gatehoppers
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:13:00 - [1937]
 

Wow what kinda meeting must his simple question of caused that we don't have an anwser yet.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:17:00 - [1938]
 

Only way to make people in empire flock to 0.0 would be to make it so those corps can make an invulnerable base and make 0.0 more profitable then empire. _No other way_. Period.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:21:00 - [1939]
 

Quote:
Let me sum this up for you, the goal of THIS expansion (not later additions) was to get more people from empire to 0.0 and to force large afk empires to shrink. It has so far failed to do this except there will be less sov on the map, the upgrades are a poor lot at best and there is no real incentive for people to leave empire. So tell me how does this expansion do anything to encourage newcomers to 0.0 and give them a decent income?


Fail. #1 you are a goon. that alone means you have no cred. Fail. #2 you are a goon. that also means you are an idiot.

Fail. #3 you ar a goon and the biggest part of your fail is that the patch has not come out yet. What are you idiots going to do start dropping sov NOW before the patch comes out? why? just so you can come on these forums and scream about how horrible its going to be? NO cause you are doing that now and it tastes delicious.Cool

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:23:00 - [1940]
 

Edited by: Dharh on 08/11/2009 19:26:59
Originally by: Gnulpie

And why would I need to grind for isk at all?

If I can chase off everyone from the part of space where I am and no one attacks me and I can do whatever I like to do there without anyone hindering me there, shouldn't it be 'my' space then until someone else comes and throws me out?

What would I need isk there???

I could have miners mining all the ore I need, I could have the blueprints ready to build stuff, I could have occasionally buy some npc fuel for the pos and the ice I could mine. I could build my ships and I could run radar sites to get datacores to invent the t2 items I want to have. Then what the **** would I need to grind for isk to PAY for my system then?

The only reason why I am forced to leave those systems should be OTHER PLAYERS kicking me out. Not some idiotic 'you can't pay your bill so you are losing your system' message created by an anonymous and artificial system.

IT SHOULD BE THE PLAYERS! And nothing else.


Because ISK is the oil that makes the gears of EVE work smoothly. You pay upkeep because you have to pay the peon human workers to maintain your SOV, you have to pay to maintain what you have. It always boggles me that people complain about a tax to pay for having an alliance or owning a system. You have workers! Capsuleers are _not_ the only people in space, and they work for ISK.

It's only artificial because you expect **** to be handed to you.

PS: Ships should have an upkeep cost to fly.

Normin Bates
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:23:00 - [1941]
 

CCP please move forward with this expansion. Pay no attention to the large alliance tears posted here. They're only afraid of change and unwilling to adapt. Adjust later with a "mini-expansion" if needed.

If the Alliances can't handle it they'll go back to empire space. (buh- bye!) Those who CAN handle it will adjust & adapt to whatever conditions apply to 0.0 They won't feel a need to have giant areas of empty systems and will use Dominion to their advantage.

It's laughable how they keep saying that it will ruin 0.0 for everyone,,,even the smaller alliances looking to move into 0.0 Funny how they are all of a sudden concerned about smaller alliances and their ability to hold space.Laughing

P.S. - Mad Props to Tri and PL for not whining and sheding buckets of tears over Dominion.


Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:23:00 - [1942]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
And why would I need to grind for isk at all?

If I can chase off everyone from the part of space where I am and no one attacks me and I can do whatever I like to do there without anyone hindering me there, shouldn't it be 'my' space then until someone else comes and throws me out?

What would I need isk there???

I could have miners mining all the ore I need, I could have the blueprints ready to build stuff, I could have occasionally buy some npc fuel for the pos and the ice I could mine. I could build my ships and I could run radar sites to get datacores to invent the t2 items I want to have. Then what the **** would I need to grind for isk to PAY for my system then?

The only reason why I am forced to leave those systems should be OTHER PLAYERS kicking me out. Not some idiotic 'you can't pay your bill so you are losing your system' message created by an anonymous and artificial system.

IT SHOULD BE THE PLAYERS! And nothing else.


An excellent point. Could be worded better, but nevertheless spot on.

Antir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:28:00 - [1943]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:30:00 - [1944]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 08/11/2009 19:38:33
Bah

Posting to much.

I just hope CCP will postpone the sov changes in Dominion until they have a better system. Though in my opinion they would need to throw away most of the current ideas for that.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:33:00 - [1945]
 

i havent the foggiest notion how it will turn out. but i can guarantee that the doomsayers on this forum don't know for sure either.

Prognosys
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:33:00 - [1946]
 

Edited by: Prognosys on 08/11/2009 19:38:05
So basically you have no clue what you're talking about, but you're going to call other people who actually have nullsec experience idiots. Got it.


Originally by: Jovialmadness
Quote:
Let me sum this up for you, the goal of THIS expansion (not later additions) was to get more people from empire to 0.0 and to force large afk empires to shrink. It has so far failed to do this except there will be less sov on the map, the upgrades are a poor lot at best and there is no real incentive for people to leave empire. So tell me how does this expansion do anything to encourage newcomers to 0.0 and give them a decent income?


Fail. #1 you are a goon. that alone means you have no cred. Fail. #2 you are a goon. that also means you are an idiot.

Fail. #3 you ar a goon and the biggest part of your fail is that the patch has not come out yet. What are you idiots going to do start dropping sov NOW before the patch comes out? why? just so you can come on these forums and scream about how horrible its going to be? NO cause you are doing that now and it tastes delicious.Cool


Ahahahahahaha look at this ****ing post, it's like a goldmine of idiocy.

Let me spell it out for you:
1. I'm not sure why being a goon means 'lol no cred', it's not like being a goon instantly kills your brain.

2. Don't call people idiots in a post where you misspell 'are' and 'its'.

3. The patch hasn't come out, but given the information revealed we know enough to be able to see that this is not going to have the desired effects.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:35:00 - [1947]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
i havent the foggiest notion how it will turn out. but i can guarantee that the doomsayers on this forum don't know for sure either.


Yes you obviously have no idea how the basics of this game function. Now move alone and leave the discussion to people who actually deal with this **** on a daily basis.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:38:00 - [1948]
 

Quote:
I'm just going to quote this.


I.m just going to quote this.Cool

no doubt this will be a goon masterplan tactic that involves an eventual nose rubbing in the dirt sorta plan that is meant to frighten me into thinking that the goon might be right and i might become embarrassed at a later date.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:40:00 - [1949]
 

Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?


To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.

You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.

The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.

Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.

Destrim
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:42:00 - [1950]
 

Originally by: Normin Bates
CCP please move forward with this expansion. Pay no attention to the large alliance tears posted here. They're only afraid of change and unwilling to adapt. Adjust later with a "mini-expansion" if needed.


Actually, a lot of empire alliances have complained, too. And non-alliance empire corporations.

Originally by: Normin Bates

If the Alliances can't handle it they'll go back to empire space. (buh- bye!) Those who CAN handle it will adjust & adapt to whatever conditions apply to 0.0 They won't feel a need to have giant areas of empty systems and will use Dominion to their advantage.



It's not a matter of "handling it." In fact, the larger alliances have openly stated they will have the least problems in holding space. The problem is the rewards are negligible: we were all hoping for something nice and shiny out of the inf.-hub upgrades, but we got crap.

Originally by: Normin Bates

P.S. - Mad Props to Tri and PL for not whining and sheding buckets of tears over Dominion.



While there certainly has been a lot of "whining" on this thread, even PL and Tri have posted their own concerns over the lackluster inf.-hub upgrades. A PL poster pointed out that they will have much fun ruining alliance operations, because NOW all they have to do is sit afk-cloaked inside the anomalies... or rather just the system itself, with the increased vulnerability to small gangs.


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