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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:51:00 - [1891]
 

Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: Jade Constantine
...


0.0 isn't an e-brothel why did you think anyone cared what you have to say


Given this is about your alliance's standard of debate on the issue I suspect your sentiment is mirrored by those responsible for balancing the expansion at this point Cool


Destrim
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:51:00 - [1892]
 

Originally by: Aralis
No not WE Destrim. You (and some others).

If the rewards were high and the maintenance low - this would still be crap. What happened to sandbox? What happened to epic?


I never once insisted that maintenance be low. In fact, I suggested the opposite: maintenance should be kept high, as planned. Again, it's the rewards I have an issue with.

Originally by: Aralis

And to everyone suggesting a non linear cost for sov the same questions. What's the point of the game if the game itself won't LET you conquer your neighbours? Is this hello kitty?

Most of us I think want sandbox, epic, freedom. We don't want to build our own little house in a nice row of identical houses with funny coloured windowboxes (which is about all these upgrades amount to). Even if the upgrades were any good what happened to game logic? How do you mystically upgrade the rats, the anomalies, the spawns? And if your answer is better detection why is this info available to everyone?

Stop hiding and get off your butts CCP and make improvements to the game. Make it bigger. Develop it. Stop trying to create a different game every six months. And when you do make changes follow through.

Even if we bought this pile of unmentionable **** at these new lower prices - what faith could we have that you wouldn't raise the maintenance costs soon as we bought it? What faith can we have in the stability of the game?

This is a roleplaying game. Ask yourself what is happening in the Eve world and make it possible.


Well, the attempt they are pushing for in dominion would actually accomplish this... if they executed properly. Which they hadn't. Again, I point out that no complaints, at least none as serious as posed here, were ever raised until the proposed inf.-hub upgrades were released.

Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:55:00 - [1893]
 

By most people maybe. I posted my complaints weeks ago. Very reasonably I thought. And CCP gave it their usual consideration and ignored it totally.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:56:00 - [1894]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 08/11/2009 17:56:33
YES OR NO: Ham sandwich. Answer me now.

Khariton
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:56:00 - [1895]
 

Edited by: Khariton on 08/11/2009 17:56:50
I guess CCP gets the point after over 60 pages of comments from every major entity in game. Maybe they're planning on ending EvE completely, after all they managed to unite all powerblocks! YARRRR!!

Perhaps a massive war against Concord?

SavageBastard
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:58:00 - [1896]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.





Leave it to Jade to not read a thread and then claim that high-sec is safer than 0.0 because of can flipping.



Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.11.08 17:59:00 - [1897]
 

The problem is simple:

Increased cost for 0,0 maintenance makes it less desirable to live in 0.0 when you can earn on par cash in empire without maintenance costs.


The solution is also simple:

Either buff 0.0 money earning possibilities (not good, would lead to inflation and then we are back to status quo)

OR

nerf empire money earning possibilities really hard so 0.0 looks better in comparison

there, pick one (ideally the 2nd one) and do it Twisted Evil

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:03:00 - [1898]
 

I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.

But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:04:00 - [1899]
 

Originally by: SavageBastard
Originally by: Jade Constantine

Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.



Leave it to Jade to not read a thread and then claim that high-sec is safer than 0.0 because of can flipping.



Hahaha, oh my god, I didn't even see this part.

Plus he seems to think people are still mad about the prices which CCP already reneged on.

Succubine
Caldari
Succubine Dynasty Technologies
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:06:00 - [1900]
 

Originally by: Tesal

That said, I expect some tears. And I am glad Goons are crying buckets of them. I think the Goon tears make me reconsider this and more supportive of the patch. If it destroys the game, it could happen, but we were headed that direction anyway. Most of 0.0 is dead, a giant nap fest with out of control moon gold, the current situation has need a large shakeup, this is it.



The tears from all alliances (although Goon tears are especially gratifyingLaughing) is great to see concerning cyno jammer and jump bridge cost. They are pos mods for cowards and I'd prefer they didn't exist, but at least significantly increasing their expense is an improvement. These changes as well as the moon gold nerf are updates that CCP did right, in my opinion.

The infrastructure upgrades however, are just plain bad. I can only conclude that CCP made high sec space too profitable and are unwilling to correct the difference in 0.0 due to economy fallout or they must be completely out of touch with the average null sec player experience.


Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:07:00 - [1901]
 

Originally by: Destrim
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Gramtar
I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380

Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following:
1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems
2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS)
3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in

Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.

I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.

Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.

Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.

Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.

On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.


I still think he's missing the necessity of a means by which security may be increased. The vulnerability to small roaming gangs will be increased ten-fold, especially since even small disruptions carry far greater implications: being unable to meet the monthly bill for sov.


While that may be true it is certainly better than TWO GUARENTEED COSMIC ANOMALIES!!

Merces Mercedis
Minmatar
Lunitic Fringe
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:08:00 - [1902]
 

First off let me states that with the current cost of systems not one single major alliance will loose one single station system, jump bridge system or moon mining system. what they will loose is all the empty systems around those. To be honest there will be no changes at all in who owns any areas in the game, there will be no place for any one that wants to go into 0.0 to get. Will it cost a boat load of ISK to keep what they have, yes. But in the end you as players we will see no changes.
Now as for the cost of the system vs the rewards. This is where CCP has screwed the pooch. I have tried to read as much of the 63 pages before I posted and here I agree that changes have to be made. I also agree that a upgraded station system has to have agents giving out LVL 4 missions and not some stupid exploration crap no one likes to do now. A upgraded system should have better belts for miners, better rats for those wanting to enjoy that part of ISK making. Why in gods name would I spend the little time I have ingame fighting for the few good belts we have in a few good systems now let alone when half of the others in a major alliance will be doing the same trying to make the ISK to pay for them? CCP you tell us a system will support 100+ players. I figured as your changes are now with a fully decked system it is 20 max. That 20 players to pay the 2.4 bill tab. Want to break down those numbers?

No CCP I have seen some great suggestions here in these pages, most of them involve true upgrades to systems, as in more static belts, agents in stations, true defences, improved rat spawns, better officer spawn rates. This is just a few of them. Please CCP read these pages as in that after 63 pages you have to relize that what you are doing is the worst fix that we as players can see happening. And it is not just players in 0.0 now that can see these changes are not going to work, but those that had hoped to come into 0.0 to earn a fat chunk of ISK now see that option fading fast.

LVL 4 missions in empire will be the fat ISK maker in EVE. Not the "new" 0.0 we were all told would happen.

We as 0.0 players want more for what we have fought hard for, this is not it.

Destrim
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:09:00 - [1903]
 

Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.

But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?


True. Methinks it would be better if we re-focused to more constructive ends.

We've done enough flaming... we've made our point: we're not happy with the inf-hub upgrades, they are weaksauce. Penalizing large alliances for holding enormous amounts of space they don't use is all fine and well: it frees-up space. But that is not enough to draw people from empire... the benefits of settling a system are not enough.

So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:09:00 - [1904]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Hahaha, oh my god, I didn't even see this part.

Plus he seems to think people are still mad about the prices which CCP already reneged on.
you know ive been trying to keep this thread as free from in-game politics and grudges as possible but i think its pretty much consensus that jade constantine has never and will never know what hes talking about

Originally by: Amy Wang
The problem is simple:

Increased cost for 0,0 maintenance makes it less desirable to live in 0.0 when you can earn on par cash in empire without maintenance costs.


The solution is also simple:

Either buff 0.0 money earning possibilities (not good, would lead to inflation and then we are back to status quo)

OR

nerf empire money earning possibilities really hard so 0.0 looks better in comparison

there, pick one (ideally the 2nd one) and do it Twisted Evil
this is it

the crux of the issue

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:10:00 - [1905]
 

Another question that needs to be asked. How does this make 0.0 more fun?

The POS grind we will all be glad to be rid of will be replaced by extra grind to pay for space so no real gain there. Then there will be no incentive to take space anymore since we cant pay for what we already have.

When I first read about Dominion I hoped it would entice smaller entities to 0.0 with scaling costs that start low and gradually increase with space owned. This would have provided us with lots of new targets to replace the ones that are no longer worth attacking. Now that its obvious we will see fewer, not more, new alliances in 0.0 - What are we supposed to do now CCP?

Also:
Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

I find it funny/sad that CCP fled this thread as soon as we started demanding an answer to this question.

Ill be nice and provide a hint - It concerns giving players incentive to be in 0.0

Ceirah
SniggWaffe
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:12:00 - [1906]
 

I have proposal too.. Let's make empire carebears pay CONCORD for the defence YARRRR!! You want to do mission without hostiles being able to shoot at you you have to pay CONCORD before entering mission etc. Traveling should be still free.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:14:00 - [1907]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 08/11/2009 18:20:50
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Nice speech bro.


The problem is that those ebil big alliances had a positive attitude toward this change until the details were revealed. Not to mention a lot of people without connection to them had the same positive attitude and are now underwhelmed and disappointed. The situation needed to be changed, but the proposed changes aren't anything to cheer about.

There was no reason to have high cost for everything. Since activity is already being measured, it could have been used to determine the cost of sov and upgrades. Very high costs for inactive and low for active systems. That would have rewarded activity and encouraged large alliances to allow more outsiders to be active in their area of influence. It would have also kept the cost low for small alliances who actively use just a few systems. Creating a strong mechanisms to allow more people to come to live there. Better for small alliances, reduces the size of large alliances and makes it more worth it for them not to **** every small alliance they get their hands on.

I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to ragequit over this. This is more about destroyed dreams, expectations and hopes. This change could have been done better. My perspective is that of a grunt of an alliance and a small corp director/CEO, so I'll not comment on the logistics of paying for the upgrades/sov. But from my limited point of view this change isn't enough to make me start living in 0.0 and the upgrades are pretty unimaginative and limited. It is an improvement of a sort, but the initial situation was so bad, that almost anything would have been an improvement.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:15:00 - [1908]
 

Originally by: Destrim
Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.

But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?


True. Methinks it would be better if we re-focused to more constructive ends.

We've done enough flaming... we've made our point: we're not happy with the inf-hub upgrades, they are weaksauce. Penalizing large alliances for holding enormous amounts of space they don't use is all fine and well: it frees-up space. But that is not enough to draw people from empire... the benefits of settling a system are not enough.

So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?


Removing non-BS spawns from static belts. As in, every single spawn should have at least one battleship. This makes it so the player has to spend less time grinding out smaller spawns in the hope that a Battleship will appear. This is one of the major reasons 0.0 ratting is often not worth as much as mission running.

Give cosmic anomalies regular rats instead of the nerfed, small bounty, no loot/salvage rats they currently have.

Make asteroids contain 5x as many minerals as they do now in 0.0. Most of your time mining is spent moving within range of an asteroid or warping between belts to get to a new rock. This should ideally be coupled with a nerf to the drone regions and compounds in general because they have destroyed the mineral market and made mining one of the least lucrative and most boring things a person could possibly do in this game.

You could also ideally get rid of those stupid "last forever" datacores than have made running hacking profession sites completely worthless unless you magically find a War Stratagem.

Destrim
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:20:00 - [1909]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Destrim
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Gramtar
I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380

Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following:
1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems
2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS)
3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in

Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.

I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.

Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.

Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.

Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.

On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.


I still think he's missing the necessity of a means by which security may be increased. The vulnerability to small roaming gangs will be increased ten-fold, especially since even small disruptions carry far greater implications: being unable to meet the monthly bill for sov.


While that may be true it is certainly better than TWO GUARENTEED COSMIC ANOMALIES!!


Agreed.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:20:00 - [1910]
 

Well, to make it easier for Jade and the ****** crowd who insist on trolling...

CCP needs to make 0.0 attractive to move to, take control of, and live inside. That there is your primary bottom line. Don't address that, and everything else is just secondary fall out.

If you want to keep people in 0.0, If you want non-0.0 people to move to 0.0, that's what you need to address first.

(I'm fine right now with 0.0 as it is not being as lucrative as Motsu & Irjunen. Those thinking of moving to 0.0 after Dominioff hits might not be as content with how things are/will be)

Elldranga
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:23:00 - [1911]
 

CCP... you want to make systems hold more players? How about you bring back the old ratting system?

Make it so that if you chain a belt, the chained spawn will gradually increase in the speed at which it spawns.... all of a sudden a system can support as many ratters as it has belts rather than the current crap where you get some guys chaining and some guys farming, and either way, with high SP players, a whole system of belts won't support many people....

Sure it got abused by farmers in empire who discovered a smartbombing BS could sit there forever until ships spawned continuously, but how hard would it be to put a limit on how fast spawns could regen at maximum?

Gulmuk
Gallente
Net 7
The Last Brigade
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:24:00 - [1912]
 

Edited by: Gulmuk on 08/11/2009 18:41:08
Why would I want to pay for Sov when I pay very little now? I guess what the DEV's don't get, is that with POS's you can mine the fuel, and basically currently you only have to purchase the trade goods that you can't get anywhere but high sec. My corp has about 10 active people in it with 2 large POS's and we only pay for the trade goods. We have 3 guys who can fly retrievers and/or macks and we mine enough ice every week that we don't have to guy ice products.

SOOOOO, CCP how are you going to combat that claim? Even if my corp had 5 POS's, we can mine enough to keep them full of everything but trade goods.

All that is going to happen is CCP is going to kill the major alliances, kill the ice market, have no use for POS's, and cram 0.0 systems with folks who can't earn a living.

Elementatia
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:28:00 - [1913]
 

This is a game and i play it because of fun.
With those new changes it now seems that i have to play it, to be still part of (the 0.0) game. Its expensive enough to defend our systems...why do i have to pay a "rent" ?

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:30:00 - [1914]
 

Originally by: Destrim
So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?
we've also talked about this at length in this thread and there have been great suggestions from people of all walks of life, from the biggest alliances to the smallest, and most of the popular ideas have oriented around increasing belt rat bounties, spawn sizes and respawn rates.

belt ratting is the bread-and-butter method of generating quick income for a lot of groups in nullsec since you can get into it without having to scan down a bunch of ridiculous **** (nobody wants to hunt for worthwhile sites just for basic income), you can do it alone (nobody wants to be forced into gangs just for basic income) and is consistent income over time that has less to do with luck than any other method of independent nullsec wealth generation outside mining (which is the sole territory of the ten account macro miner in nullsec)

so i guess if they made exploration type stuff more consistently profitable then belt ratting thatd be cool too -- like have them start at their lowest level with rapid respawning triple-1.3m bs spawns instead of a single pirate in a shuttle spelling out ~*~fartz~*~ with his jet exhaust

Destrim
Koshaku
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:31:00 - [1915]
 

Edited by: Destrim on 08/11/2009 18:31:04
I suppose one can say we are all in agreement on one thing:

The rewards are not enough. The proposed inf.-hub upgrades are disappointing.

Am I correct in this assumption? Even if you think I'm putting it mildly, or over-simplifying?


Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:31:00 - [1916]
 

I'm still thinking that they need to give a direct to alliance bonus whenever an anomaly is done in a system where that alliance holds sov. Something like 1-10m based on the difficulty of the anomaly. And then they need to reset that anomaly 15 minutes after all npc's are killed in it, that way your enemy can't just sit in it cloaked so that it doesn't reset.

That along with an upgrade that boosted bounty and another that boosted mining yield would just about do it. I think we would have about as much as we expected from this patch, although not as much as we had hope for.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:37:00 - [1917]
 

Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Destrim
So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?
we've also talked about this at length in this thread and there have been great suggestions from people of all walks of life, from the biggest alliances to the smallest, and most of the popular ideas have oriented around increasing belt rat bounties, spawn sizes and respawn rates.

belt ratting is the bread-and-butter method of generating quick income for a lot of groups in nullsec since you can get into it without having to scan down a bunch of ridiculous **** (nobody wants to hunt for worthwhile sites just for basic income), you can do it alone (nobody wants to be forced into gangs just for basic income) and is consistent income over time that has less to do with luck than any other method of independent nullsec wealth generation outside mining (which is the sole territory of the ten account macro miner in nullsec)

so i guess if they made exploration type stuff more consistently profitable then belt ratting thatd be cool too -- like have them start at their lowest level with rapid respawning triple-1.3m bs spawns instead of a single pirate in a shuttle spelling out ~*~fartz~*~ with his jet exhaust


IMO this is bad. It should _not_ be the best way. It should be the middle ground, or even the worst way. Anomalies, mining, production, ratting, etc, all should provide equal opportunity for ISK. Maybe even diminishing returns if you focus on _only_ one aspect.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:40:00 - [1918]
 

Originally by: Dharh
IMO this is bad. It should _not_ be the best way. It should be the middle ground, or even the worst way. Anomalies, mining, production, ratting, etc, all should provide equal opportunity for ISK. Maybe even diminishing returns if you focus on _only_ one aspect.
i actually agree with you in principle that ratting shouldnt be the most popular way to make money but the way to fix that is to buff anomalies (better sites), mining (better ores) etc and not to kneecap ratting

its hard enough getting stable financial footing in the null as it is

Kieselguhr Kid
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:43:00 - [1919]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
To everyone else, the reason CCP is doing this is to force peeps like this to back down to a reasonable number of controllable systems so others can have a chance.


That's a great reason. Too bad the actual effect of this change is going to be to force everyone in 0.0 back into NPC space + 3-5 critical JB systems, while leaving the rubble behind us for no one because it's worthless.

If this goes through as is, you can have all the systems you want. You'll have to rat/mine/whatever for hours a day to earn the upkeep on them, we'll come back and disrupt your claims whenever we get bored of semi-AFK L4 pirate mission running, and you will never be able to import anything from Empire because we'll control all the border gate systems on the way, but you can have them. You probably won't want them, though.

Slobodanka
Posted - 2009.11.08 18:45:00 - [1920]
 

Originally by: Jovialmadness
Dude. S*F* just S*F*.

You state in your post the actual numbers of people an alliance might have with a reasonable amount of precision and then you have the balls to try to validate why its ok to control upwards of 100 to in your case 160 systems?Laughing

Just GTF* of these forums and don't ever come back.

To everyone else, the reason CCP is doing this is to force peeps like this to back down to a reasonable number of controllable systems so others can have a chance. Atlas couldn't defend that number of systems without a powerbloc if their lives depended on it. That is just a singular reason why the dev's have stated EXACTLY why what Atlas and the rest of the alliances are doing is making the game mind numbingly plain and not what they really wanted. I totally agree. If you dont like this then quit, no seriously dont argue with me just quit. This is one of the best changes ive ever seen and i have been in 0.0 for years.

I am so sick and tired of diplomacy controlling space and not true sweat which is what it will require now not only in isk but in fighting.

There will be no opportunities for new players in 0.0 with this patch. Even if you gave them free ships and forced them to go to 0.0 current powerblocks will definitely not allow them to stay, even if the system does not have alliance name in top left corner. Goons will still control 160+ systems, atlas will still control their space, NC will still control the whole north... Only empire people will not be able to see it unless they look on those pretty .jpg maps in CAOD.

Now return under your bridge and think of a way to get more people into 0.0.


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