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gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:09:00 - [151]
 

You're gonna Bypassing the profanity filter is prohibited.Applebabe up 0.0 ccp

OK, it seems none of you play the game you make, but wait, you have a csm. Did you run this by them? Were they down with it? I thought it was their mission to stop you doing stupid Bypassing the profanity filter is prohibited.Applebabe like this

Sellmewarez
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:09:00 - [152]
 

Posting ASCII art on the forums is prohibited.Applebabe

That is it? Terrible. If anything it gives people more incentive to go back to empire to make ISK.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: RevrendStyx
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: RevrendStyx
For me to answer this in any fashion you have to clarify why you think I work for ccp.Razz
well you clearly dont know anything about nullsec so he probably put two and two together


An even better goon response. Yes I know nothing of null sec, but you all still suck at eve. We're even. Now back on topic.

These changes don't look to bad to me. Not great but not bad. CCP doesn't always seem to think everything though but at the same time they have been creating this game for ~10yrs. Have you? Let them do their jobby job and stfu and deal with what they give you...orrr like I told the cva guys. Go back to empire or quit and give me your stuffs.
LEAVE CCP ALOOOOOOONNNNEE

L'Artest
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:10:00 - [154]
 

Well, guess we'll just hold sov in r64 and station systems then. No one else is going to want any other systems beside those.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [155]
 

Actually i do enjoy the tears here :D Karma is a ***** (and thats after screwed up capitals "rebalance" Seleene tries to push into dominion).

Alice Celadon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [156]
 

The REAL problem hasn't been mentioned yet, and it's a simple economic one.

We don't sell our finished goods to NPCs in this game...they all go to other players. That means there is a mostly static pool of available ISK in the game which facilitates transactions. CCP just created a monumental ISK sink. Buckets of ISK are about to disappear every 14 days. What mechanic has been put in place to increase the influx of ISK? None.

Let me repeat this slowly, because I don't think people get this yet. Moon goo doesn't make ISK. Mining doesn't make ISK. T3 production doesn't make ISK. Bounties, mission rewards, and tags (sleeper belongings, etc.) are the ONLY things that make ISK, and these haven't been buffed in the slightest...but the availability of ISK in general is about to take a massive hit.

...

This means one of 3 things.

1. Massive isk generation mechanism CCP hasn't revealed yet.
2. 0.0 gets really abandoned, really quickly.
3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK.


Seriously CCP...don't you morons have an economist working for you? Walk down the freakin hall and ask him about this.

Yosser Hughes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:11:00 - [157]
 

-Pirate Magnets won't be installed as anomalies aren't run due to lower bounties, no faction/officer spawns and generally take much more effort than belt rating.
-Ore Prospecting Array will flood the market with high end minerals and make them worthless, and people will go back to belt ratting/mission running.
-Entrapment will crash the price of deadspace gear and people will go back to belt ratting/mission running.
-Survey Networks: profession sites aren't worth the effort now, even less so after the inevitable price crash.
-Quantum Flux Generator: There's marginal profit in killing sleepers now, guess what this will do (hint: read above)

I hope you guys at CCP didn't spend too time thinking about this, because... damn.....

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:14:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: L'Artest
Well, guess we'll just hold sov in r64 and station systems then. No one else is going to want any other systems beside those.


Why do you need sov to mine moons? Also with the crappiness of upgrades why do you need sov in station systems? Station ownership is decoupled from sov as far as I know.

Hu Evur
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:14:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Solution to sov problems:

0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes.




Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system.ugh Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:16:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 07/11/2009 00:17:14
The basis for the daily cost is nothing short of insane. To start with, the raw fuel costs of a large tower are half of what you are estimating; it costs at most 2 million ISK a day to run a large tower.

Almost every alliance cuts this down even more by using as many faction large towers as they can, and that number is further reduced by actually having sovereignty. At most, a system should cost us 10 million ISK per day, if not less.

At this rate, the rule of thumb is going to be "Don't take up space that you can't 'work like a prostitute'." I'm pretty sure this is opposite of the intended effect, and a second look at those numbers would not go amiss.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:21:00 - [161]
 

And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:24:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 07/11/2009 00:17:14
The basis for the daily cost is nothing short of insane. To start with, the raw fuel costs of a large tower are half of what you are estimating; it costs at most 2 million ISK a day to run a large tower.

Almost every alliance cuts this down even more by using as many faction large towers as they can, and that number is further reduced by actually having sovereignty. At most, a system should cost us 10 million ISK per day, if not less.

At this rate, the rule of thumb is going to be "Don't take up space that you can't 'work like a prostitute'." I'm pretty sure this is opposite of the intended effect, and a second look at those numbers would not go amiss.


Evel,

think of it. What is the chance of that happening in 3 weeks time which includes code freeze Very Happy


Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:25:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Hu Evur


Your solution is as well thought out as CCP's new sov system.ugh Good luck on your stupid jihad against empire dwellers. You will only drive them out of the game, eliminate your own targets, and thus kill the game. But, that is your whole objective isn't it.


So really, my plan is a pretty good one.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:26:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: teji on 07/11/2009 00:27:17
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.
If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.
Stop whining.


And again, a NPC station system costs 0 ISK and can make more isk with 0 upgrades. Each player has to pay 0 million isk to pay this bill.

PaulTheWise
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:29:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.
I'd like to treat Eve as a game, not as a job, thank you very much.

That is exactly the reason why I'm stopping doing reactions, it 'forces' me to be online every (other) day to empty silos (both a simple and a complex reaction on 1 large tower sounded fun at first :P ) and make regular (but required) trips to Jita.

Forcing me to fork up 7mil a day will have the same effect: me not wanting to play the game any more. The towers skewer the numbers a bit as I can't really say there are days I don't even make 7mil, but back when I was still ratting and missioning (at my own pace :) ), very much so.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:30:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 00:31:57
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


Vivian has a point. 2 billion divided amongst 10 players for a period of 30 days and each day is around 6.5-7million a day. Wow, that's like shooting...what, 8-10 Battleships in Providence space? (In belts mind you). Its not really that bad. Though the upgrades I agree need to be looked over, but I believe CCP might have forgotten the belt-related ones....unless they have no intention of fixing those. (I hope not btw...)

Further edit: Btw, that's with 10 FREAKING PEOPLE. Imagine around 50 which is about the minimum any alliance is going to need to take any system in any 0.0 space. A whopping 1.5million a day. OH NO, 2 RATS!!!!!!!!!!

sheesh, work together for once, I think that's what 0.0 lacks right now, wayyyy too much solo within corps/alliances, not enough working together.

--Isaac

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:30:00 - [167]
 

How does this give any incentive at all to spend my time making money in 0.0 over running level 4s? Im going to have less space with more competition which will drive down isk earned. This actually makes level 4's more attractive which is the worst thing you can do for null sec.

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:32:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


hmm, 7mill x 30 days = 210mill

for not much more you can buy a plex. so your assumption is that everyone is rich enough to pay their subscription via plex. which leads to: everyone is rich enough to pay for two plexes a month, or post patch players will have to pay $15 per month to hold sov

given that people buy plex to sell for isk, I think you might be off the mark a bit.

Yosser Hughes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:33:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Yosser Hughes on 07/11/2009 00:37:36
Edited by: Yosser Hughes on 07/11/2009 00:35:51
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


And you still need just as many starbases, which cost more now due to a drop in the sovereignty fuel bonus Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Really, there's no reason not to move to NPC 0.0, where I can run mission at a cost of 0 million isk per day.

Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:34:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Valrandir on 07/11/2009 03:34:14

Tiger Kior
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:36:00 - [171]
 

CCP is out to lunch with these costs, not only does this absolutely make 0.0 cost prohibitive it means any alliance, especially smaller ones, need to spend vast amounts of time farming isk to maintain the space they want to own.

How are smaller alliances expected to break into 0.0 with these costs, not to mention if said smaller alliances need to actually engage in a sov war with tangible combat to gain space then the costs become exceedingly cost prohibitive. The smaller entity needs to fund a war and obscene sov costs, which I hate to say it is just not going to happen with how these costs are structured.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:36:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 07/11/2009 00:36:41
Yikes.

Talk about a lot of unhappy players. CCP are you listening?

You guys better have a big meeting to discuss your 0.0 Dominion infrastructure plans because your player base doesn't seem to be happy - at all.


Stormdeath
modro
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:40:00 - [173]
 

These numbers are unsustainable.

You think it looks okay because the number of people and splitting the cost between them. You don't run or pay for an alliance. It is about ability to tax if the alliances still wants to hold station systems and other important systems thru holding corps. Also you will no longer see the jump bridge networks increasing your defense and roam ability at 3.5b a month for each.

The thing I have been really worried about during this process of sov revamping has been the idea of increasing the alliance/corporation expenses while not increasing any of the static income(non active sources of income), infact with the changes to moon minerals you are decreasing the alliance static incomes with a slight increase to the corp. I know CCP does not like these income sources but without them you get into taxing the crap out of your member base. There is not a single person in the game that is happy with 20-25h% tax rate or 20m a month in fees, for a 50 man corp to hold one system with only basic upgrades.

Move over empire people it's about to get alot more crowded.


Hu Evur
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:42:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
So really, my plan is a pretty good one.


Yeah, it depends if you want this: "0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes.";

or, to simply grief people out of the game and kill it.

Either way I think if CCP doesn't fix the present proposal we probably won't get to discover which objective motivates your suggested fix to what appears to be a flawed new sov proposal. I say appears to be because we still do not have the full proposal, which will come "soon ~" (note use of tildaWink).

Anyway, as a couple others have already stated, did not see anything in this blog about sliding scale costs as number of systems claimed increases. Unless we missed it, in which case thanks in advance to someone who can point it out.

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:43:00 - [175]
 

perhaps the economic/military upgrades need to be a little more potent than they are.

That's the way to adress any balance rather than cost: a high cost/high reward balance will end the AFK empires while a low cost/ low reward balance will simply be like today with afk empires held for epeen and moons except tech and neo will replace dys and prom (on that note, please fix the technetium bottleneck ccp Razz)

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:44:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Stormdeath
These numbers are unsustainable.

You think it looks okay because the number of people and splitting the cost between them. You don't run or pay for an alliance. It is about ability to tax if the alliances still wants to hold station systems and other important systems thru holding corps. Also you will no longer see the jump bridge networks increasing your defense and roam ability at 3.5b a month for each.

The thing I have been really worried about during this process of sov revamping has been the idea of increasing the alliance/corporation expenses while not increasing any of the static income(non active sources of income), infact with the changes to moon minerals you are decreasing the alliance static incomes with a slight increase to the corp. I know CCP does not like these income sources but without them you get into taxing the crap out of your member base. There is not a single person in the game that is happy with 20-25h% tax rate or 20m a month in fees, for a 50 man corp to hold one system with only basic upgrades.

Move over empire people it's about to get alot more crowded.




7 million ISK per player each day, if 10 players contribute for a single system... yeah... you really need to tax them with 25%... LOL

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:45:00 - [177]
 

Extra quantities of crap material will never convince people to go there when they would not before. Upgrades need to improve the quality of raw materials and encounter sites, not just the quantity of them.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:46:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 01:03:39

Sorry, but those "upgrades" are worthless and not what any of us were expecting them to be.

We need upgrades that:

Increase the number of belts in a system.
Increase the security rating of the system to spawn better rats or ores.
Increase the number of rats that spawn in a system. (I don't mean anomalies)
Decrease the spawn timer of rats, from 20 minutes to 10 minutes.
More upgrades like these ^

The problem with 00 and why alliances take huge areas of space is because there are a lot of systems that people just can't make money out of. And the systems you can make money out of only support 2-3 players tops. Those upgrades you listed throw the idea of upgrading worthless systems to be somewhat usefull out the window. If you want each system to support 50 people like ya'll have been touting, you need significant changes to this proposed system, because those changes listed do nothing to help support more players.

The



Also:

It's a bad mechanic to do a straight cost per day per system model. You should have done a scaling system. IE the first system costs you 1 million per day. You claim a second system....now both of your systems cost you 2 million per day, claim a 3rd and all cost 3 million per day, and so forth.

This means small alliances can break into 00 starting out, and also means the large alliances can get what they need but get hammered if they try to gain 3 regions of space.

iP0D
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:47:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 00:31:57
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


Vivian has a point. 2 billion divided amongst 10 players for a period of 30 days and each day is around 6.5-7million a day. Wow, that's like shooting...what, 8-10 Battleships in Providence space? (In belts mind you). Its not really that bad. Though the upgrades I agree need to be looked over, but I believe CCP might have forgotten the belt-related ones....unless they have no intention of fixing those. (I hope not btw...)

Further edit: Btw, that's with 10 FREAKING PEOPLE. Imagine around 50 which is about the minimum any alliance is going to need to take any system in any 0.0 space. A whopping 1.5million a day. OH NO, 2 RATS!!!!!!!!!!

sheesh, work together for once, I think that's what 0.0 lacks right now, wayyyy too much solo within corps/alliances, not enough working together.

--Isaac


His point fails once you introduce some simple human behaviour. Everyone out in 0.0 has been bottling up steam and a lot of patience towards Dominion to bring back something other then structures to shoot Embarassed.

So, while instead of less we get more structure types to shoot at and deal with, with more timers even if admittedly at a somewhat faster pace, there is still virtually no incentive for people who are not already out there to actually go there.

And those who do, are the very thing those hordes of frustrated and disappointed l33t pvp'ers have been waiting for, and will descend on to gank and grief 23/7 to hell and beyond. Try keeping that bridge up when at any time a day there are cloaking force recons around just waiting to portal in bomber fleets because there is someone living in space again Very Happy


Anyway, all that aside. The ones CCP wants to move out here are the ones who define everything by level 4 mission income and risk. Do the math from there on. Then add the silly part about exploration, which requires effort, and wastes a ton of time since you still get in each other's way cause you have no way of identifying who is (already) doing what and where.


It's hilarious. Subscribers take things to excess, as a rule. Apply that to the basic picture. Even without doing the math that becomes a pretty ugly picture. On the bright side, since the consequences will only become visible over several months time, by the time things get really funny we will have new shiny to get dazzled by.


I'm quite sure there will be drama and soap in the months to come in the large powerblocks, but once they learn to specialise in roles and functions we will once more go back to an equilibrium. Control is not a problem, and rebellion an incredibly easily bypassed risk. But the ones who currently have the most ISK in stock, will have to be incredibly stupid to loose their leadership positions on the map.


Josh Silver
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.07 00:49:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
2 billion ISK a month / 10 players = 3 Triple BS-spawns per day killed by each player...

...that sure is way too expensive Rolling Eyes


Decent triple-BS spawns take a long, long time to groom. Like multiple hours while you are at the mercy of any simpleton to break your chains and ruin your "work"

We had faint hopes the patch would make excactly that easier, so 0.0 beltratting would come close to hisec mission running, ISK wise.
We wanted the rat upgrade to give BETTER or FASTER spawns or MORE BELTS or anything useful really, anything...

And we got +x crappy Anomalies which is a kick in the balls with steel-capped Doc Martens.


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