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Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:38:00 - [1321]
 

Just some stuff that CCP Devís have posted that everyone should read that was in the last 20 pages.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave


We cannot currently put level four agents into 0.0 stations owned by players. I completely agree that it would be a very good solution, as they are one of the few non-finite resources, but it's simply not possible at present. I can promie you that it is high on the list of stuff many of us would love to see, though.


Originally by: CCP Chronotis


So will we look at making upkeep costs less than stated in the blog due to reasonable feedback?

Yes!

- Sovereignty Structures

The role of the Territorial Claim Unit (TCU) changed since the original figures were generated to be only a marker for sovereignty and the last thing to be removed after a system has been taken (details on this are coming soon in Abathur's next blog). This means the cost for the TCU should be reasonable in terms of upkeep and we are looking at 1 mill per day currently for that dot on the map.

The infrastructure hub is both key to strategic defence and as the base of the solar system upgrades. Here we are looking at mirroring a large starbase in equivalent operational cost so 5 million upkeep per day is more reasonable.

- Strategic Upgrades

The key upgrades here we want to force you to make economic decisions over are naturally the jump bridges and cynosural jammer use. The presence of these two has radical effects on the 'landscape' generally.

We are looking at no upkeep cost on either of the construction arrays and cynosural field generators and then maintain significant costs the cynosural jammer and jump bridges.


Originally by: CCP Chronotis


- The jump between no risk and any risk is the most significant step, the same as no cost and some cost. The difference in mathematical terms is small but economically large. In short, it takes a disproportionate amount of reward to offset a smaller amount of risk or additional effort.

- We are looking at introducing social group content as Soundwave mentions of sufficient reward to compel you either as someone who runs missions in empire to fund their pvp in null sec or as an empire dweller looking to make the leap to join up with others and seek to upgrade your solar systems to unlock these sites. These will act to both minimise the number of signatures as a whole within the solar system and to let you play together than alone.

- yes we are very aware of the 'level four missions' issue in relative activity income potentials to everything else.



EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:39:00 - [1322]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:39:00 - [1323]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:39:00 - [1324]
 

Edited by: Sidus Sarmiang on 07/11/2009 23:39:37
Originally by: Static Kinetics
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.


Oh, hey, there it is. The heart of the issue.


Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:39:00 - [1325]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
It's funny to see the babble about 0.0 should be more rewarding then empire...

I got a fix for your problems: fly LvL 4 missions with an alt.

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.

This has been covered over and over again. It doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't need to have multiple accounts to enjoy EVE if you live in 0.0.

And before you say "cry more" since you're probably trolling anyway - I have three accounts, one of which was a recent Power of Two purchase I'm regretting making now.

Wirbin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:40:00 - [1326]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury
Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP! Very Happy

It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.

In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.

I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)

If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.

Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.




excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.



what a terrible post, do you even play your own game?

pvp is all this ****pile has over world of warcraft

please go make 0.0 worth living in over grinding l4s in motsu or i'm taking my business elsewhere

thank you

Kal Koitar
GF Development Inc.
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:40:00 - [1327]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:41:00 - [1328]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Spam.Applebabe

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:41:00 - [1329]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 23:43:19
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.


So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?


EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.

So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time playing to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.

Making ISK is way too easy these days, as is holding space.

Dualshock
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:42:00 - [1330]
 

Edited by: Dualshock on 07/11/2009 23:45:07
any brits around here might find the situation reminiscent of this old classic interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KHMO14KuJk

Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:43:00 - [1331]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Spam.Applebabe

Emily Elderburry
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:44:00 - [1332]
 

CCP; do yourself a favor and augment the isk/hr of ratting in 0.0 to be greater that what a LVL4 mission runner yeilds in empire.


Hendrik Stahl
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:44:00 - [1333]
 

Originally by: Korodan
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.



Lot of dancing around this question.

Kernok
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:44:00 - [1334]
 

ccp for a carebear that is grinding lvl 4 missions now and has never gone to 0.0, do you really think this horrible set of upgrades is going to encourage them to go?

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:44:00 - [1335]
 

Originally by: Zahorite
Just some stuff that CCP Devís have posted that everyone should read that was in the last 20 pages.
the 'level four missions' issue in relative activity income potentials to everything else.



It's amazing how much text can say absolutely nothing.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:45:00 - [1336]
 

You guys should check out Perpetuum, being developed by an ex-BoB guy looks pretty sweet.

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/

Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:45:00 - [1337]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury


..."mining is a **** profession"...
...You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts...
...harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell...




excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.



To the OP: Isk Per Hour. Ratting isk > Mining isk, cooperation doesn't bridge this gap unless the rats in your space are really horrible (which probably means the ore is too)

Chronotis:

True independent industry in 0.0 has been dead for nearly 3 years if not longer, if it ever really existed at all outside of the old Delve and maybe a few little corners like ISS and such.

If you have one outpost of each type, you have:

28 production slots
13 ME slots
13 PE slots
12 copy slots
11 invention slots
Zero reaction slots
And a 35% base ore refinery

If you've ever taken even the briefest look at how many POS's you need for all the reactions and moon mining and build slots, never mind moving minerals around, and operating and fuelling the POS's that are required for an alliance to build one quarter of enough T2 ships and modules of all racial flavours to self-sustainably supply themselves with such....

You'd realise that 0.0 industry is utterly and horrifically broken, there are barely enough slots in an Amarr outpost to supply the average sized alliance with just battleships let alone anything else, and with the ridiculous amounts of added complexity of trying to build T2 from moon minerals in 0.0 it will obviously never happen with the current state of industrial infrastructure available, hauling stuff in from outside or leaving everyone to fend for themselves will always be an order of magnitude easier.

As I said in my last post, if youíd like to fix this, there are some quick and simple fixs:
Caldari outpost +20 of each Lab type, +25-50 moon mineral reaction slots.
Minmatar outpost from 35% to 50% base refine.
Amarr outpost from 20 production slots to 100-150 slots*
All outposts from 2-4 base production slots to ~25 or so.

That would go about 50% of the way towards fixing 0.0 industry, next fix POS industry to make it specialised and actually have advantages where it currently has penalties, Iím sure someone else has a walloftext somewhere about whats wrong with this stuff though and this is not the thread.

Also: stuck record: +15%, +20%, +25% 0.0 Ore types, +100% yield Veld. People will Mine again.

*(yes, really. Think of the number of T2 components and then assume that more than one corp per alliance might want to build them all at the same time!)

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:45:00 - [1338]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 23:43:19
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.


So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?


EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.

So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time playing to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.

Making ISK is way too easy these days, as is holding space.


If that was the case we would all be happy. That isn't how things work now, and this update is going to make it even worse. Right now it's about 2/3 making money for 1/3 doing pvp, after this update it will be worse.

Yafn
Robbing You of Your Space Pixels
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:46:00 - [1339]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:47:00 - [1340]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 23:43:19
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.


So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?


EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.

So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time playing to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.

Making ISK is way too easy these days, as is holding space.


I already have a job.

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:47:00 - [1341]
 

Originally by: Yafn
Spam.Applebabe

Mistres Tor
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:47:00 - [1342]
 

Mcon99
for simple:
If i have to fly in 0.0 scaning+hinding for reds+doing anomalis for 12 hours evry day to have enoug isk for a zelot for pvp and i can do in less then 4 hours on lv 4 misoins in empires then yes it is play for isk/h, becouse i can play next 8 hours pvp.

Do you like PVP or PVE ?

Second EXODUS incoming

lv4 agents in EMPIRE be ready :) I'm coming

Alexis Avalon
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:47:00 - [1343]
 

Quote:
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Wirbin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:48:00 - [1344]
 

Edited by: Wirbin on 07/11/2009 23:48:24
Originally by: Korodan
Originally by: Qlanth
Spam.Applebabe



well, which is it?

Kazuo Karasuma
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:48:00 - [1345]
 

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

This thread is a train wreck. The sheer amount of ignorance from CCP (and certain other posters) is just amazing. Why make a broken system to be revised later when you can actually make it right in the first place.

Aeryn Carter
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:48:00 - [1346]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:50:00 - [1347]
 

Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 07/11/2009 23:57:05
Originally by: Zahorite
If that was the case we would all be happy. That isn't how things work now, and this update is going to make it even worse. Right now it's about 2/3 making money for 1/3 doing pvp, after this update it will be worse.
This is not counterstrike online. Fly cheaper ships, if you can't afford it.

Yes, PvP should MEAN something. Not just "lulz - dock - undock in new ship"

Edit: Oh, yeah, there is a way to do it. Get some carebears which actually LIKE mining and missioning (anomalies in 0.0). Protect them (go roaming, intercept baddies) and make them pay some ISK for exploiting your space (mechanics will allow for that).

You will get some pew pew and the carebear will actually PAY FOR YOUR PVP!!!

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:50:00 - [1348]
 

Originally by: Zahorite
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 23:43:19
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.


So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?


EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.

So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time playing to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.

Making ISK is way too easy these days, as is holding space.


If that was the case we would all be happy. That isn't how things work now, and this update is going to make it even worse. Right now it's about 2/3 making money for 1/3 doing pvp, after this update it will be worse.


Learn to make ISK.

I spend some 1/10 of my time making enough ISK in EvE to fly around in Tech 2 cruisers the whole day and loose some 5 HACs a week.

Making 1 billion ISK a week is a piece of cake and can be done 90% AFK.

Mcon99
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:50:00 - [1349]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar


And before you say "cry more" since you're probably trolling anyway - I have three accounts, one of which was a recent Power of Two purchase I'm regretting making now.


No please, keep crying. Obviously the complainers in this thread are failed 0.0 pilots who are so bad they need mission alts.

If everyone in this thread keeps believing that complaining about the Lvl 4 income vs 0.0 is going to change CCP minds, they are nuts. Lvl 4's ARE CRAP GAMEPLAY. ALWAYS. 0.0 is the BEST GAMEPLAY (including wormholes). Total freedom. Faction drops. Solo and group PVE. The best ores. And PVP can be right around the corner.

First rule for real players - never have a mission alt. Never. Never mission. Ever. Plex, rat, wormhole, explore. Mission grinding in high sec is failure. Missions in 0.0, respectable, i must admit, because the risk factor.

<-- Never missioned. Never made much isk on the market, only a little through manufacturing. Don't mine. Between wormholes, 0.0 rats and plexes, and pvp returns, I have billions.

Daniel Ogden
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:51:00 - [1350]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Vivian Azure

Seriously, stop crying about crap PvE-content in a PvP-centric game. PvE-content should get scrapped and reduced to a minimum, not boosted.


So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?


EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.

So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time working to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.


Fixed. We don't want to WORK in our GAME. It's for FUN.

So even if we balance out our alliance with miners and such that will help the alliance pay for sov but does that help me? No. I WANT to be in 0.0 and still have to go to empire to make ISK cause the ratsin null are sh!t by comparison. If I WANT to be here and have to leave to make ISK, how are newcomers going to be LURED here if there is now increase reward? I can already plex and run anomalies, having more of them doesn't help, more suck = still sucks. Make our true sec upgradeable FFS.

For all those claiming it is only Goons and CVA that don't like the looks of this, here I am now STFU. I hate the both of them. This is not what was promised and the powerblocks aren't going to be crippled the way that we were all hoping because everyone is getting the same crippling effect. The difference is they have huge reserves of ISK so they are actually BETTER prepared for it. Get it? Get it?


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