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Treji
Posted - 2009.11.07 22:58:00 - [1261]
 

If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:00:00 - [1262]
 

Edited by: Hertford on 07/11/2009 23:03:04
Dominion? More like Dominioff.

Quote:
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?


Yes, that's it exactly. Come Dominion as currently proposed we are going to lose all our space, so we're pretending that the current proposals make 0.0 a step backwards from living in highsec, resulting in no-one from empire even bothering to live in 0.0.

Not to mention that Delve ratting sucks and we barely exist in a state where ratting is worth doing. Come Dominion and triple the number of Battlestars per solar system, all of our incomes are set to suffer badly. We refuse to go quietly into that dark night!

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [1263]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury
Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP! Very Happy

It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.

In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.

I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)

If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.

Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.




excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.



Oh yes I can see the recruitment adverbs now
"Comes to 0.0, if you are lucky enough to not be ganked, camped in by hostiles, have a proper market, or not killed while traveling you can make just as much as money running l4s in empire minus whatever we charge for protection"
I'm sure people will be coming in droves.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [1264]
 

Originally by: Treji
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?


All of you idiots saying "lol look at the goonies and cva whine" realize we're both in really good shape for this patch, right? We just think it's objectively crap.

Brennah
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [1265]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury
Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP! Very Happy

It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.

In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.

I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)

If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.

Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.




excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.



Basically what I'm taking away from the fact that you're trolling your customers is that you as a company are emotionally/egotistically invested in these changes and are hellbent on making them happen despite 40+ pages of people telling you why this is horrible. You should probably ask Sony how well this worked for SWG and NGE. Since you are so determined to force this down our throats I suggest two new names for this expansion

Eve Online: NGE
Eve Online: Exodus II

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [1266]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.


So inverting the composition to 95% of ratters and industrialists and 5% PVP/fleet is called balance these days Confused

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:02:00 - [1267]
 

Originally by: Hertford
Dominion? More like Dominion - The Age of PvE.


Crying or Very sad

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:03:00 - [1268]
 

Edited by: SXYGeeK on 07/11/2009 23:03:59
-42- checking in on page 42....
(edit: ack, i took to long typing, its 43 now, my oppertunity for greatness has passed, :( )

wow, this is a fast growing thread.

I just want to say thanks to Soundwave and Chronitis for sticking in here with us, taking our feedback, and feeding us more info. Enjoy some of your weekend guys! (though you likely somehow enjoy this...)

I think that we shall certainly see a reduction in the footprint of 0.0 alliances to "meet the budget" as it where for sov maintanance bills.

I'm excited by the prospect of the "Guaronteed" anomolies and mining sites, with respawn instantly elsewhere in the system.

with a fully upgraded system having the rewards of the anomolies to be on par with LVL4 mission running
and there will be 10 anomolie sites at all times.

think about it, with belt rattin we just warp around hoping something will be there to kill, and if we are lucky we get a faction or maybe even an officer.

now we will warp around between anomolies and be Guaronteed something will be there, and if we are lucky it will escalate...
not only this, but we dont have to wait for them to respawn, as soon as we kill them off another one respowns.

we could put several gangs of 3 or so pilots together to go rage through anomolies, the faster you do them, the more you get...

and this will all strike true for mining as well, practicaly limitless ore in your favored system.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:04:00 - [1269]
 

Originally by: Treji
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?
we're not worried about ourselves, we have huge reserves of ships, money, etc and a lot of us make our money outside nullsec as it is, either through empire missions, scamming, suicide ganks or a combination thereof. we -- and everyone else in the null -- are worried because all of these changes reduce anyone's desire to actually hold nullsec space. no incentive to hold the space means no reasons to take space, which in turn means total stagnation of nullsec warfare

i mean christ we wont even be fighting over moons much anymore, and thats pretty much the only thing anyone had fought over the past several months anyways

Treji
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:06:00 - [1270]
 

What! You don't fight for honour and glory? Sad

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:06:00 - [1271]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury
Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP! Very Happy

It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.

In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.

I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)

If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.

Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.




excellent clarity of vision I must say!

It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.

The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.



your vision ****ing sucks and so do your changes hope im making that clear

Verlai
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:07:00 - [1272]
 

Originally by: Treji
What! You don't fight for honour and glory? Sad


He mentioned the suicide ganking.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:07:00 - [1273]
 

Originally by: Treji
What! You don't fight for honour and glory? Sad


Honour and Glory in Serious Business Internet Spaceships. That's us through and through.

Lemage
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:08:00 - [1274]
 

woot exodus back to empire! More mission runners to suicide gank, best patch evar!

Mistres Tor
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:08:00 - [1275]
 

do not forget to make an escalation you need time to find it, time to make it, and every time can red come :) and you can't make it alone

and lv 4 in empire are safer
and are more profitable and take less time to do, and you don't need to find it, and you can make it alone and always have a good reward

Second EXODUS incoming

lv4 agents in EMPIRE be ready :) I'm coming

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:08:00 - [1276]
 

i'm rich as **** so i want you to know that these changes do not affect me in the slightest and i still think they are dumb and i could come up with better with an hour's thought

Olivor
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:08:00 - [1277]
 

So.... I don't really understand how this stops AFK empires.

I was under the impression that the more linked systems you had the more it would cost you per system (20M each per day if you only own four systems, 50M each for eight or something). Clearly you can have the central systems with military and industrial upgrades and just let the sov upgrades roll in with time?

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:10:00 - [1278]
 

Originally by: SXYGeeK
"Guaronteed"

anomolies

anomolie

anomolies

Guaronteed

respowns.

anomolies



heh

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:11:00 - [1279]
 

Originally by: Treji
What! You don't fight for honour and glory? Sad
honor
glory
honour

its really funny that ccp's solution to the ghost town system problem is to try and pack a bunch of us into it out of necessity instead of making the space worth living in in the first place

its like we keep asking ccp for food and they just keep giving us bigger and bigger plates of rocks. you can force our faces into the gravel pile as much as you want but that wont make it any more nutritious

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:12:00 - [1280]
 

Originally by: SXYGeeK
Edited by: SXYGeeK on 07/11/2009 23:03:59
-42- checking in on page 42....
(edit: ack, i took to long typing, its 43 now, my oppertunity for greatness has passed, :( )

wow, this is a fast growing thread.

I just want to say thanks to Soundwave and Chronitis for sticking in here with us, taking our feedback, and feeding us more info. Enjoy some of your weekend guys! (though you likely somehow enjoy this...)

I think that we shall certainly see a reduction in the footprint of 0.0 alliances to "meet the budget" as it where for sov maintanance bills.

I'm excited by the prospect of the "Guaronteed" anomolies and mining sites, with respawn instantly elsewhere in the system.

with a fully upgraded system having the rewards of the anomolies to be on par with LVL4 mission running
and there will be 10 anomolie sites at all times.

think about it, with belt rattin we just warp around hoping something will be there to kill, and if we are lucky we get a faction or maybe even an officer.

now we will warp around between anomolies and be Guaronteed something will be there, and if we are lucky it will escalate...
not only this, but we dont have to wait for them to respawn, as soon as we kill them off another one respowns.

we could put several gangs of 3 or so pilots together to go rage through anomolies, the faster you do them, the more you get...

and this will all strike true for mining as well, practicaly limitless ore in your favored system.



How awesome guaranteed level 4 income!!!! All you have to do is invest lots of resources and time a month and you too can be assured level 4 income. Dont worry about the potential to be ganked!. Surely ccp has factored in scan time. The fact that l4 income is mainly LP gain, we know for sure they factored that in. The current anomalies blow, no chance the future oens will not blow. We can all rest assured youll never waste time warping to a site, finding someone there and having to warp off. Dont mind that corp taxes will increase. The hordes of empire shall flow in to null sec to battle over the ability to make nearly the same ammount of cash as they made in empire. Yes i cannot freaking wait for this patch. The best way to increase null sec is to make it not at all more lucrative. CCP are genius.

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:13:00 - [1281]
 

Originally by: Treji
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?


Either go away or read some more. It's not just Goon, it's every single alliance in 0.0 space. Based on a message earlier by a CCP Dev that I think a lot of people have missed things are a bit better now. 1m a day for sov claim and 5m a day for industrial hub, as opposed to the 30m a day they would have been combined. So now it's not about the upkeep, it's about the fact that a lot of 0.0 alliances and members were banking on the fact that after this update 0.0 space would be more profitable than high sec mission running as it should be (a CCP Dev posted that it should be back somewhere in this thread also), but it's not and CCP says they knows it's a problem but they "can't" fix it. Which is BS since they could just say add lvl 4 agents to 0.0 instead that offer higher rewards, or increase bounty, or any number of things, they just won't.

Anyway if that isn't changed as it stands right now alliances will survive in 0.0 space. But we aren't going to see an increase in players in 0.0, and will probably actually see a decrease in players and pvp in 0.0 space.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:14:00 - [1282]
 

This is an excellent development, good work CCP. I am especially pleased to see that not only are CVA whining right on cue, but even Goonswarm is emo-raging about the unfairness of it all.

I foresee that what this will do is force large alliances to hunker down into a few core systems, go ratting and plexing in fleets instead of solo, and really scour their systems for every last frigate rat and every last bit of veldspar. They'll do this despite it being less profitable than before. They'll do this despite the fact that their system becomes a juicy juicy target for pirates. They'll do it not because they want to, but because they have to.

The effect will be a much denser 0.0 population, a much higher value of ISK, and much more interesting PVP. Instead of large blobs fighting unmanned POS in the emptiness of space, what you'll have are live players leaving their home systems to raid other systems full of live players. It should be much more brutal, a lot less luxurious.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:14:00 - [1283]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 07/11/2009 23:15:02
Originally by: Treji
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?


If there is a single sov holding alliance that doesn't need to worry about this patch it is goonswarm. We have billions of ISK in reserve and had been preparing for the likely R64 nerf for months before it was announced.

It should be pretty obvious that these changes will do nothing but force people OUT of 0.0 to search for a better way to make money.

That way will probably be running Level 4 missions in empire while holding some key lowsec moons of value.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:14:00 - [1284]
 

There is that. 75% of 0.0 systems have nobody in them because those systems aren't worth doing anything in them. That's your first hurdle. Make every single 0.0 system worth using. The reason alliances claim large tracts of space is because of the remaining 25% that has stuff worth doing inside.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:16:00 - [1285]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
This is an excellent development, good work CCP. I am especially pleased to see that not only are CVA whining right on cue, but even Goonswarm is emo-raging about the unfairness of it all.

I foresee that what this will do is force large alliances to hunker down into a few core systems, go ratting and plexing in fleets instead of solo, and really scour their systems for every last frigate rat and every last bit of veldspar. They'll do this despite it being less profitable than before. They'll do this despite the fact that their system becomes a juicy juicy target for pirates. They'll do it not because they want to, but because they have to.

The effect will be a much denser 0.0 population, a much higher value of ISK, and much more interesting PVP. Instead of large blobs fighting unmanned POS in the emptiness of space, what you'll have are live players leaving their home systems to raid other systems full of live players. It should be much more brutal, a lot less luxurious.


This is an amazing troll. Other posters take note.

Spawinte
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:17:00 - [1286]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Spawinte
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: pi squad
Edited by: pi squad on 07/11/2009 21:54:06
you're literally a dip**** if you thought the csm would actually accomplish anything and this thread is incontrovertible proof
Looks like your right.

We made it explicitly clear that unless the risk vs reward balance was fixed, they wouldn't solve anything.

Seems like they have just flat out ignored this advice and not made it the priority it should have been.


Am I in the minority in thinking that CCP knows best and not a bunch of forum whiners who got a free trip to Iceland? I include myself among the whiners btw.

Also BAAWWWWWW and AHAHAHAHAHA

Hahahahahahahahaha yes you are


Yeah but seriously BAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:17:00 - [1287]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
This is an excellent development, good work CCP. I am especially pleased to see that not only are CVA whining right on cue, but even Goonswarm is emo-raging about the unfairness of it all.

I foresee that what this will do is force large alliances to hunker down into a few core systems, go ratting and plexing in fleets instead of solo, and really scour their systems for every last frigate rat and every last bit of veldspar. They'll do this despite it being less profitable than before. They'll do this despite the fact that their system becomes a juicy juicy target for pirates. They'll do it not because they want to, but because they have to.

The effect will be a much denser 0.0 population, a much higher value of ISK, and much more interesting PVP. Instead of large blobs fighting unmanned POS in the emptiness of space, what you'll have are live players leaving their home systems to raid other systems full of live players. It should be much more brutal, a lot less luxurious.
no what youll have is a lot more of us with mission alts in empire as well as a lot more us suicide bombing mackinaws with armageddons to make ends meet because those are both quicker and easier ways to make money than doing any one of the things you said

as for pirates we'll do what we do now which is dock up or warp to a pos when they enter system or just not notice because most nullsec space is and will continue to be empty

Xtreem
Gallente
The Collective
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:17:00 - [1288]
 

in over six years of playing i have spent about 4 in 0.0 grunt and leading 500 and holding sov.

i can say with honesty, i am glad i came back to empire and have gone semi afk, the changes are... nasty!!

what i would do as an evil person is i would get my large alliance to get 30 alts of players into a corp, sit a few in each system in stealth bombers, in my reds main isk making systems and just totally ruin their isk making power, afk most of the day, pop back gank some stuff (say 3 per system, all launching a bomb would hurt alot when followed with seige) and can hide again pretty quick, would wreck allaince isk making and thus hurt there system holding.

this is the worst change i think i have ever seen, and a good way to judge that is true is when you see alliance that HATE each other agreeing with each other and even quoting them!! it must be cold in hell

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:19:00 - [1289]
 

This won't hurt us nearly as bad as people may think. Sure it'll reduce our footprint a bit but it will completely destroy any small alliances in 0.0 financially. They will struggle jsut to keep sov in one or two systems. God forbid they get in a war and cant rat 24/7

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 23:20:00 - [1290]
 

Originally by: Treji
If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good Very Happy

Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?

We're just being the most vocal (as usual). If this goes through it's going to screw over *everyone*, even the people you like who fight us.


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