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pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:25:00 - [1171]
 

Edited by: pi squad on 07/11/2009 21:27:04
hey ccp stoffer ninjapirate,


do you realize that you're being more of a smug ***got than any director in the history of goonswarm? if darius johnson or even deadtear were in your place they wouldn't be half the ****head you're being and nobody even paid them



just think about that

marxist revolutionary
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:27:00 - [1172]
 

Originally by: pi squad
Edited by: pi squad on 07/11/2009 21:25:32
hey ccp soundwave,


do you realize that you're being more of a smug ***got than any director in the history of goonswarm? if darius johnson or even deadtear were in your place they wouldn't be half the *** you're being



just think about that


he's not a goonswarm director he's a CCP employee check your premises ford cruller

Magnum III
Journey On Squad
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:27:00 - [1173]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Nyphur
Another idea I had was the possibility of taxing NPC kills in a system rather than just those within a corp. It's an idea just to support the NRDS people that can't reap taxes from the people that use their space. Perhaps they could set their hub to collect a 10% tax off NPCers in their system automatically. Maybe even make it an upgrade?


Reduce upkeep in systems with high player activity. It can be that simple and will solve most immediate problems:

Look here
but then you will get corp mails on everyone better get to the upgraded systems, come on now, you want them to wip you until you stay in there like a good boy?

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:28:00 - [1174]
 

Wait a minute, "Infinite respawn." Think about that for a second.

One pilot to an anomaly is stupid.

The faster each one is cleared the faster the next one shows up.

2 salvaging ships and 20 DPS ships more like.

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:29:00 - [1175]
 

Don't listen to him stoffer we will love you again just as soon as you realize that 0.0 ratting should be more profitable then l4 missions not equal.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:29:00 - [1176]
 

Originally by: marxist revolutionary
he's not a goonswarm director he's a CCP employee check your premises ford cruller

a CCP employee whose salary we directly pay

is that how one should act? bite the hand that feeds?

Misaki Yuuko
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:31:00 - [1177]
 

Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The system we have is very expandable and easily so from this point on. Adding additional upgrades and content those upgrades might unlock can be done as soon as the content is ready and even attached to existing upgrades.


So basically, we should realize that you know the current system is broken, accept that it's going to be implemented anyways, and hope you fix it in the future?


Another half-assed expansion by CCP, sir. Basically, since years, a lot of the problems with the game can be reduced to CCP not having the balls to fix risk-reward scheme in the ISK making business (specially regarding damn empire lvl4's).

Also they must realize that for the average player, when they want to make money, they just want to they their business as safe and effortless as they can (hence empire lvl-4 running alts), if they want group/social-playign they will go pew pew. This is soemthing to take in consideration.


You know what's even more funny, NPC 0.0 is in general getting a buff cause the faction ship rebalance (very worthy mission whoring), low-sec is getting a buff cause the militia's new toys (tier 1 BS's etc.). And normal 0.0 is left as ****ed up as it has allways been lol.


The least thing you can do, is buffing anomalies: implement belt rats in there (not normal rats) and a chance of faction spawn (without screing too much so their value doesn't drop due to stupid supply), and in general increase bounties. Fix faction/officer hunting so people after DT does not have such and advatage while you're at it. Given the new isk sink in form of fees and the general delationary cycle macroecnomically speaking, I'm sure some incentive for the individuals to move to 0.0 is not that bad.


Apart of that, stop crying about moongoo: just fyi, there is allways goign to be a bottleneck and moon mining is still very profitable, current trends are no more
than knee-jerk reactions and market speculation, R64, 32, and some 16's will still give a very nice passive income. Also the impossiblity to form cartels and force prices by major alliances can't be udnerstood, as they pretty much control the market to a point they can do this (even if one majro block coordinated to force prices they could influecne prices artificially, at leats until CCP nerfed that allowing moon mineral harvesting in plexes or something like that). The difference now will be more moons to mine which are profitable, profitable alchemy etc. which means less alliance directorate getting filthy rich and more average indy trying to get a share of the profit, or mroe corp projects.

Anyway: fix damn risk/reward allready.

marxist revolutionary
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:31:00 - [1178]
 

Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: marxist revolutionary
he's not a goonswarm director he's a CCP employee check your premises ford cruller

a CCP employee whose salary we directly pay

is that how one should act? bite the hand that feeds?


wah i'm a QQing lil babby whose life revolves around eve online and i believe that grandstanding over account cancellation means anything

there's been plenty of constructive stuff posted in this thread, shut the **** up and stop being a child

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:32:00 - [1179]
 

oh noooo i've been called out i can't hide behind my alts ;__;


see i was comparing him to gs directors because i didn't think there was any group of people who are more smug and annoying than them but mr ninjapirate has apparently proven me wrong :O


~ninjas~pirates~lmao~

Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:32:00 - [1180]
 

Okay I want to summarize a previous post by a CCP dev just in case anyone missed it.

Costs have been reduced from what the blog said. The TCU will now only be 1m a day, the industrial hub will now only be 5m a day. All other costs are gone except for the jump bridge (12.5m a day) and cyno jammers (25m a day).

I know that a few people won't like this but I think this needs to be tweaked just a bit more for balance sake. Just keep in mind that all of this should be put together, if some of it is taken out then it will affect numbers in other parts. This should balance the upkeep system so that alliances will only keep sov in systems that they actually are either using or serve a vital strategic purpose. Also number 4 here would give at least some incentive for NRDS alliances to stay NRDS.

1. The TCU cost should be increased again. 20m is way to high, 1m is to low to give enough incentive for alliances to pull back from systems until those systems are actually attacked. It should be set to 5m, of course I'll offset this cost with other things.
2. Startegic levels (sov levels) should reduce upkeep costs by 10% per a level. Basically the longer you own and maintain a system the less isk it will cost to continue to maintain a system. This puts buffer zones that you have held for 100 days at 2.5m a day instead of 5m a day which you would pay right after you took it.
3. Stations should reduce upkeep costs for the Industrial Hub, in fact it should reduce the Industrial Hub cost to 0 and the station should be considered an industrial Hub itself. Or the Indusrial Hub should be located near the station. Stations basically are Industrial Hubs. But Industrial Hub upgrades are just dumbed down stations which only allow you to upgrade the system.
4. Activity levels in mining and military should act to decrease maintnance levels. Roughly this would be a 2.5% decrease per a level. This would stack with the strategic level deduction so that core systems that had all 3 at level 5 would reduce the upkeep costs by a total of 75%. This would mean that core systems which alliances were active in would cost far less than systems they didn't need or buffer systems.
5. In order to balance the 75% reduction in upkeep costs I'm going to assume that CCP will need to increase the costs of jump bridges and cyno jammers by at least a little bit. I'd suggest not quite double the cost. So 20m for the jump bridge and 40m for the cyno jammer. This would mean that a newly taken over system would pay a total of 65m for sov, jump bridge, and cyno. Meanwhile one that had been held for over 100 days with active players in it would cost 16.25 million a day.

In order to fix the problems with 0.0 risk/reward some other things are going to need to be done.
1. A military upgrade should be added. Each level of this upgrade will increase the bounty of everything in the system by 10%. So at max this would give a 50% increase in bounty which corps could directly tax. I'm assuming that Concord pays these bounties so just call it Concord Communication Array.
2. Level 5 missions should be added to all industrial hubs. These would promote players in 0.0 to work together. Also with the possible 50% increase from Communication Array this would be far better than lvl 4 high sec missions. Not sure how LP would work but it can just be redeemed in high sec and I don't think anyone will have a problem with that in the short term. Later lvl 6 missions that use capital ships should be introduced.
3. For the industrial side an upgrade should be added that does multiple things. a 10% increase to mining yield and 10% decrease in ice cycle time per a level, works the same as mining leadership does, so easy to implement. lvl 2 gives a 35 % refining array, lvl 3 gives 20 manufacturing slots, lvl 4 gives a 50% refining array, lvl 5 gives 20 research slots.

These should increase the risk/reward in 0.0 and may be enough to get people down to 0.0 from high sec.

Andra McKay
Dark Krystal
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:35:00 - [1181]
 

I am very much disappointed with how this is turning out.

First and largest disappointment is that costs don't scale as we we're promised. There's basically no difference to the old sov system now in terms of AFK empires... Yes, every system you hold costs isk for "that dot on the map", but that's already the case and already we have AFK empires. So if costs get reduced (and they will be considering this threadnought) and we keep the linear cost scaling, nothing will change.

Also the upgrades: Not what i expected and i'm quiet underwhelmed by what we get delivered here. How can 10 ppl living in a fully upgraded 0.0 system (because let's be honest, we know, it won't sustain more ppl then 10) be able to cover a bill of multiple billion isk by taxes? 50% tax rate maybe, but who's gonna put up with that.

Also please CCP, what's up with risk/reward these days? Highest end anomalies will pay like lvl 4's? U serious? And all below that highest upgrade level? Even so, who's gonna run anomalies in 0.0 with the risk of getting ganked any time, making about the same or less isk/hour then your alt in hisec lvl 4's? Oh yeah and 50% of your bounties go away for tax to pay the fees on your oh so cool 0.0 system.

Is going to 0.0 worth it CCP? I'm constantly trying to answer that question of my corp mates in hisec. I'll have to ask that question now myself.

Non-linear scaling costs, worthwile upgrades, giev nao!

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:37:00 - [1182]
 

Originally by: marxist revolutionary
wah i'm a QQing lil babby whose life revolves around eve online and i believe that grandstanding over account cancellation means anything

there's been plenty of constructive stuff posted in this thread, shut the **** up and stop being a child

hardly the case

there's nothing constructive about this thread when the attending devs are ignoring/failing to answer questions

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:37:00 - [1183]
 

hey, you've got questions? we've got one-liner dismissals


~customer~service~

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:39:00 - [1184]
 

Edited by: Mrs Trzzbk on 07/11/2009 21:38:56
Somebody said I should link this here it's a bunch of words about this bull****: http://trzzbkforcsm.blogspot.com/2009/11/dr-cripeslove-or-how-i-learned-to-hate.html

particle9
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:40:00 - [1185]
 

i'm just sorry i kept telling people you guys knew what you were doing and that this would be a great update Sad

won't be doing that anymore lol

Ehris Bok
United Kings
Strategic Operations Brigade
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:45:00 - [1186]
 

Originally by: Groperson
"Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

[X] Yes
[ ] No

CHECK ONE"

Serious question, no troll zone.
ccp must fix this b4 this rubish goes live. What I wanna know is did the CSM know about this? Epic fail if they did.

Jethro Hawkins
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:46:00 - [1187]
 

CCP: delay the patch.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:46:00 - [1188]
 

Originally by: cok cola
CCP, what better way to showcase your new planets than with PLANETARY SPAWNS!



this. Come on CCP, we know you want it too!

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:48:00 - [1189]
 

Edited by: Vadinho on 07/11/2009 21:48:20
Edited by: Vadinho on 07/11/2009 21:47:52
Originally by: Ehris Bok
ccp must fix this b4 this rubish goes live. What I wanna know is did the CSM know about this? Epic fail if they did.
they did and -- here's the thing -- they said the same things we've been saying for the past forty pages

ccp's response to them was "bleep bloop poop"

edit: zastrow you wanna field this one

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:48:00 - [1190]
 

Originally by: Ehris Bok
ccp must fix this b4 this rubish goes live. What I wanna know is did the CSM know about this? Epic fail if they did.

Don't blame the CSM. The CSM gives CCP ideas, CCP nods their heads and commence implementing whatever they deem best for players

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:49:00 - [1191]
 

ALL YOUR TEARS... Shocked *overloads*

marxist revolutionary
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:50:00 - [1192]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:50:00 - [1193]
 

Goons/MM whine is this thread is hilarious.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:53:00 - [1194]
 

Originally by: Franga
Goons/MM whine is this thread is hilarious.


You forgot all the Atlas, XXdeath, CVA, and generally every sov holding alliance of note also saying that the changes are poorly conceived.

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:54:00 - [1195]
 

Edited by: pi squad on 07/11/2009 21:54:06
you're literally a dip**** if you thought the csm would actually accomplish anything and this thread is incontrovertible proof

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:54:00 - [1196]
 

Edited by: Mrs Trzzbk on 07/11/2009 21:54:54
Originally by: marxist revolutionary
Edited by: marxist revolutionary on 07/11/2009 21:50:01
Originally by: Mrs Trzzbk
Edited by: Mrs Trzzbk on 07/11/2009 21:38:56
Somebody said I should link this here it's a bunch of words about this bull****: http://trzzbkforcsm.blogspot.com/2009/11/dr-cripeslove-or-how-i-learned-to-hate.html


whoa teh blogosphere is here thats web 2.0 as heck thanks fatty


np do you think i should put tags on it and cloud compute it so i can really be web 2.0?

or wait is cloud computing web 3.0 **** i need to go find a copy of wired.

KarlHeinrich Marx
Posted - 2009.11.07 21:56:00 - [1197]
 

I* am a soldier.
I undock to defend for the assets of my corp/alliance and the coloured spot in the influence map.
I undock to attack our enemies, who might grow stronger than us and to shoot at the enemies of our friends, who we need at times.
Every time I undock I risk my ships and often I loose them, but due to my corps/alliance assets it can subsidize the ships I fly
This way I only need 300m per month in average (after insurance and corp help) to buy new ships. When I buy new ships I help eves economy from the highsec miner providing many millions of tritanium every month, L4 runners for the meta4 items I fit and the inventors and T2 producers for the T2 fit.
Yes, I hate shooting pos's.

Now with Dominion, I am supposed to carebear to pvp ? Shoot rats to contribute to the corp wallet so we can buy the sov ? buy less ships because I can afford less because I am busy paying the bills ?

Sorry, I don't get it.

*) obvious alt post is obvious

Arra Lith
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 22:01:00 - [1198]
 

Edited by: Arra Lith on 07/11/2009 22:06:06
I think new prices are much more acceptable.

30 M per system for flag (which doesnt give anything than name tag and information about new poses in system) is not too much or too little. Just to claim whole region with 100 systems its 3b per month (2 dreads built less monthly...). And sov claimed with just flag without hub is very easy to conquer (just put stops and thats it).

150 M for hub is same as 1 deathstar (hubs dont eat fuel as far as I know). Seems perfectly acceptable for me. Thats still a bit more than current sov (you can claim system with industrial poses, or put harvesting array at same deathstar pos, reducing costs significantly), but doable for even small alliances.
Free maintenance for upgrades that dont have any big impact on defenses (CSAA / CB) - ok.

2x higher costs for JB as it is now (JB that is actively used usually burns at least 300m of ozone monthly). In dominion it will be added upgrade maintenance 375 M - with total for 700 M monthly for JB. JB are great logistical tools and its fine if they need to be expensive. They will need to be placed in best systems for that.

7x higher costs for Cyno Jammer - seems it will be placed only in key areas (supercaps production / etc) - propably only current capital systems will be jammed to increase security. Most of space will be unprotected. Well that will result in huge capital ship fleets a must for any 0.0 entity. So bye bye small alliances - even if you take sov you will not be able to defend it properly.
Price for CJ should be cut by half at least I think (so you can defend also strategically placed systems, like borders - not only systems with CSAA). That will leave some room for conventionals ships usage too.

Also 1 thing worries me - knowing CCP prices for hubs and upgrades will be way too high, but we will see.

Salsbury
Posted - 2009.11.07 22:03:00 - [1199]
 

Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP! Very Happy

It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.

In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.

I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.

I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)

If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.

Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.


W1ckd Munch
Posted - 2009.11.07 22:04:00 - [1200]
 

I'm just happy to see that most of the Eve player base seems able to spell better than Joe Phoenix.


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