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Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [91]
 

its so wonderful that all us nullsec alliances can set aside our differences to come together and tell ccp they dont know **** from shinola when it comes to how their own game is played

there just might be hope for peace yet <3

Skiliong
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [92]
 

Tbh i was hoping the sov would take in consideration the number of systems held and not be the same price for all systems.

This could allow smaller corps/alliances to enter 0.0 and when they grow (if they do) they would pay more for that

Paying 1B/month for 1 system it's easy. Big alliances will still be able to hold large space because the moons will give them the enought isks for that and without needing any extra work on the systems or to improve them. This is NOT what i (and many like me) was expecting!

The upgrades but in resume ... THEY SUCK!!!!

Hope the values and not final like the dev blog says

Puzie
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:23:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Crylnish Hlar

Goodbye EVE,
signed Cyrl


Can I have your stuff?

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:23:00 - [94]
 

I see a lot of ppl mentioning some "huge" profits from reactions. Well, profit you make from them now might seem high, but with these changes one of the only ways to actually make some ISK for corporations will be reactions. With a lot of entities not doing them at all atm, just selling raw materials, I guess most of them will have to start doing reactions to enrich profit from those moons. That will increase their fuel bills to a point and they will bother to mine every available moon.

With more reactions and components on the market, prices of those will fall, as will profit. So say good bye to that too...

Mr McAlt
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:24:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: Mr McAlt
but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.



What we're telling you is that none of the upgrades are even worth the cost of the upkeep.


I'm not sure you read the Dev Blog properly. The 'Upgrades' do not require additional upkeep. The things listed in the white table require upkeep. income improving upgrades (Industry and Military) only require you to pay to install them, not to keep them running:

Originally by: CCP
The Costs of Resource Upgrades

Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) to purchase and require a certain existing appropriate activity level.


Originally by: mynnna
No. It won't. I didn't see something like "oh yeah and rat bounties were tripled across the board" or "we have introduced super-ores to 0.0", so there's nothing here that increases a player's personal income. Oh yeah, and anomalies (as far as I know) can't spawn officers, another way in which it is inferior to normal belt ratting.


Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system

On average atm a system has about 2-3 anomalies. With this at lvl 5 you have 10 guaranteed. Admittedly, most are not good at all- ratting belts is better, but some anoms have good rats and a chance of a faction spawn at the end (As do they all) Very Happy

Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system

This is much safer than mining at a regular belt, plus the ore may be different/better than your current system ore, so it would be very useful.

Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system

How can you not understand how this would increase your isk income? Rolling Eyes

Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system

Same thing- Radar and Magno sites can be very profitable.

Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space.

Same again... how do these upgrades not increase your income? 0.0 Exploration sites give you more isk/hour than lvl 4 missions, and that's considering the time spent to travel to different systems to find a single site. I would not be surprised if you could make up to 50 mil per hour with good system upgrades, just doing the exploration sites. ugh

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:25:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy.

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.



Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in?

If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks).

To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones.

CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile.

Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort.

CynoNet Two
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:25:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: CynoNet Two on 06/11/2009 23:27:30
GUYS GUYS

I think I found a worthwhile upgrade.

Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space, thus allowing you to evacuate to high-sec and make far more money.

Arra Lith
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:27:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord
I see a lot of ppl mentioning some "huge" profits from reactions. Well, profit you make from them now might seem high, but with these changes one of the only ways to actually make some ISK for corporations will be reactions. With a lot of entities not doing them at all atm, just selling raw materials, I guess most of them will have to start doing reactions to enrich profit from those moons. That will increase their fuel bills to a point and they will bother to mine every available moon.

With more reactions and components on the market, prices of those will fall, as will profit. So say good bye to that too...


True, but you dont need sovereignity to place POS and do reactions - you can do it even in low sec.
And there is no way those upgrades will yield enough isk to cover costs. And if something costs more than gives value... whats the point of installing it, and fighting to defend it ?
Much better to build just large fleets and destroy someone else infrastructure (upkeeping it will propably mean target alliance have much smaller fleet and is easy target).

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:28:00 - [99]
 

What happened to the idea of escalating charges per system claimed by each alliance + minimum numbers of systems claimed for each upgrade?

Lynn de'Marco
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:29:00 - [100]
 

i hope the system upgrades are going to be epic because those costs are insane.

assuming every system was currently held on 5 large towers as per CCPs price reasoning this is still a 4 fold price increase without even taking account that POS will still be needed to hold the jammers, jump bridges and deathstar the FLAG.

so i'm expecting ratting/mining to be 4 times as profitable with the upgrades......

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:29:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Mr McAlt

Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system

On average atm a system has about 2-3 anomalies. With this at lvl 5 you have 10 guaranteed. Admittedly, most are not good at all- ratting belts is better, but some anoms have good rats and a chance of a faction spawn at the end (As do they all) Very Happy



These are worthless and we actively tell our newbies to never, ever run them. They are never worth the time.

Originally by: Mr McAlt

Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system

This is much safer than mining at a regular belt, plus the ore may be different/better than your current system ore, so it would be very useful.


They have little ore and nobody will mine the veldspar to make them despawn.

Originally by: Mr McAlt

Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system

How can you not understand how this would increase your isk income? Rolling Eyes


This is the one potentially worthwhile one.

Originally by: Mr McAlt

Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system

Same thing- Radar and Magno sites can be very profitable.


They have not been for over a year. I already explained why.

Originally by: Mr McAlt

Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space.

Same again... how do these upgrades not increase your income? 0.0 Exploration sites give you more isk/hour than lvl 4 missions, and that's considering the time spent to travel to different systems to find a single site. I would not be surprised if you could make up to 50 mil per hour with good system upgrades, just doing the exploration sites. ugh



This is only worth it for the additional wormholes to empire.

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [102]
 

Mr McAlt, unless directors start scanning and taking away faction loot from members and make them undock to rat and mine while tax is 100%, nothing goes to corp wallet, and corp wallet is the one paying bills for upgrades and upkeep, not personal ones Razz

Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [103]
 

Anomalies? You mean those pieces of **** that aren't worth anyone's time to run unless there's a chance of escalation to a-type loot?

Also, how does CCP plan to address the huge shift in supply as people suddenly get access to high volumes of specific sets of things? If each system is guaranteed to get 10 ABCM grav sites, Zydrine and Megacyte will crash to the point where it will become as valuable as veldspar. Morphite will drop more than it did after the drone regions were introduced.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy.

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.



Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in?

If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks).

To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones.

CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile.

Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort.


If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem.

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.

2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player.

Buc'sJita alt
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:30:00 - [105]
 

Haha what the **** are you thinking?

Any sort of income gain from installing these upgrades will quickly be negated by the price crash that will quickly follow! There's no reason to install them at all!

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:31:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Tamahra on 06/11/2009 23:32:04
what youre all forgetting though, is that corps can now set a certain amount of isk as a kinda tax for each member, which will be automatically billed.

soooo. 2 billion isk per system per month, thats roughly 20 million isk per member per month, if you have 100 members and own one system..........

viewing it from that angle, its not as much of a problem as many are making it

Korvin Eeex
Gallente
Ancestors Of The Half Ninjas
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [107]
 

It is funny how CCP is calling this "Sovereignty is getting a fixin' in EVE Online: Dominion".

CCP, read comments and think very hard. These are horrible changes, concept is good but realization is horrid. You should listen people that live in 0.0 (some of us spent almost all EVE time in 0.0).

Please CCP, I already stopped playing few months ago but kept my 4 accounts subscribed, don't make me unsubscribe and leave EVE, I love this game and don't make it worse, pls.

RevrendStyx
Warhouse 13
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Equinox Daedalus
Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:32:22
Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month

CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month

CCP, you can't really be serious.

We go from fighting for something we own to paying for something we own, paying ridiclous amounts of isk, atleast from my general point of view.

What incentive is it to actually keep our space anymore? you say you want to use CVA as an example, but, you actually seem to want to destroy what we have built. You should of left us disbanded, because your doing a real good job of what most other alliances haven't been able to do.

Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation.


Tragic really.




"Mythical isk influx" All you guys need to go back to when the sov changes were first announced. Your going to have to WORK for your space.Shocked Not just sit around and make monies from moon goo. My alliance does not hold any space but we can make 10's of bills a month off of grinding it out, be it in empire wh's or 0.0. The alliance gets together and says hey we need cash and everyone gets into gear. Maybe its just been so long since you've had to do something for your isk.

orrrr maybe you should go back to empire. Deal with the changes or give me your stuffs and quit.

Josh Silver
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:32:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Josh Silver on 06/11/2009 23:32:07
That's completly awful, obviously noone who designed this mess lives in 0.0 or even plays EVE at all.

But it pairs nice with the insane console shooter thing so yeah, enjoy your jobs while you still have them.

Normin Bates
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:35:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Kalissa
The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes.

Nice! Very Happy


Yea. All the rich & lazy alliances are being thrust out of their comfort zone. Hence the buckets of tears.

Gee...they will have to think/work a bit more and not hold multiple regions. Sucks to be a bloated alliance with piles of empty systems right now huh? Very Happy

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:36:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Normin Bates
Originally by: Kalissa
The bigger alliances will be crying buckets over those sov changes.

Nice! Very Happy


Yea. All the rich & lazy alliances are being thrust out of their comfort zone. Hence the buckets of tears.

Gee...they will have to think/work a bit more and not hold multiple regions. Sucks to be a bloated alliance with piles of empty systems right now huh? Very Happy


this hurts smaller 0.0 alliances and anyone who wants to try and make inroads into 0.0 much more fyi

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:37:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Tamahra on 06/11/2009 23:37:31
again, in an attempt to calm everybody down:

corps can now automatically bill their members for a set amount of isks per month.

1 system, 100 members = 20 million isk per member per month, to cover the costs.

Its NOT SO BAD as you think, especially since CCP can still tweak the costs and the buffs from the various upgrades.

Pnuka
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:37:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
When I read crap like you're posting here... oh boy.

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.



Hi, what 90 belt system are you playing in?

If you spend the hours needed to properly chain belts, and if you don't have any asshats coming and blowing up the chains, you can sustain maybe a half dozen ratters in a very high belt count system (15+). But that's only after several hours worth of work in cleaning out crap spawns--and that's assuming your system even gets decent ones (most 0.0 sucks).

To earn 2 billion a month ratting, you need 100 hours (3.3 hours/day) of 20M/hour ratting--and thats if you, personally, are paying the upkeep fee. If you're talking corp taxes, even assuming a 30% PMITA tax rate this turns into 333 hours of 20M/hour ratting. Thats over 10 hours of best-quality ratting per day to pay for ONE system. To pack 11 people into that system is simply not feasible unless you're talking them being scattered through 5 timezones.

CCP has the exact WRONG take on 0.0 improvements: rather than improve the overall quality with a modest improvement in quantity, they've said "screw quality" and expect us to make up the difference with quantity...forgetting that doing L4s in empire is VASTLY more cost-effective and worthwhile.

Fix anomalies, improve 0.0 mining methods/efficiency, fix profession sites, and MAYBE this system is worth the effort.


If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem.

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.

2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player.


AAA Citizen alt spotted.

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure

If you strive for personal income, then it's your problem.

In 0.0 there should be 100% tax and the ally paying for all the assets you need to do the fighting for them. That's how it works for us... it's called communism, and it actually works in EvE.

2 bil a month is nothing, if you divide it between 10 players. That's a laughable 7 Million ISK per day per player.


:slowclap: Well played, though I should have seen that coming.

Lynn de'Marco
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Dramaticus

this hurts smaller 0.0 alliances and anyone who wants to try and make inroads into 0.0 much more fyi


this^^

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:38:00 - [116]
 

Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0.

The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets.

To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves.

Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done".

Crimson11
Unexpected Company
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:42:00 - [117]
 

I think by the responses from almost all types of alliances in size, power, and profession, this is not what we thought we were getting. Fail CCP

RevrendStyx
Warhouse 13
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Niding
Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0.

The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets.

To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves.

Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done".


Please CVA guys stop. Just stop. Adapt or die.

Gerard Deneth
Caldari
Pavlov Labs GmBH
Independent Faction
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [119]
 

I think people are missing one key part from this devpost, and I hope that Chronotis makes a quick post to confirm/deny this:

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) to purchase and require a certain existing appropriate activity level.



Note that he says the THE COST TO UPGRADE not the cost to maintain an upgrade. That means you're looking at a 50-500 mil one-shot cost to upgrade, not to maintain it each month. Note as well that the posted upgrade table at the top of the devblog does NOT include the cost of the other upgrades (asteroids/plexes/etc).

Perhaps wishful thinking, but I seriously think that a mistake was made reading this thing....

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:43:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Niding
Well, Providence is the most populated space in 0.0.

The wealth generated from neutrals seldomly finds its way to the SOV holders wallets.

To ensure it DOES generate wealth for the SOV holders, we have to shut out neutrals and reserve the resources for ourselves.

Kinda ironic that CCP used CVA/Providence as a template of "how its done".


in the near future you can sign contracts with your local neutrals, which automatically bills them each month for the set amount of isk that both parties have agreed upon


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