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Guib Lugutrinos
Caldari
Black-Wing
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:17:00 - [961]
 

/signed blog

and make Supercaps cost a monthly upkeep.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:18:00 - [962]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 18:20:15
Thank you for the comments Soundwave.

Here is my problem with what you stated about anomalies:

1) If the "Highest Tier" Anomaly is 'on par' with level 4 missions, why would I want to be in 00 running anomalies, when I can run level 4's, make the same amount of isk, and do it much safer? 00 is supposed to be *more* profitable than empire not 'on par' with empire.

2) Anomalies are painful. You scan, wait 30 seconds, see the result. If no result warp to next planet try again. Oh I found an anomaly! Warp! Oh blast, someone's already here, lets start over again. Oh found another one! Wait it's the low level anomaly I can't make money on this one, next! That's so frustrating, yet you don't want to add in knowing if someone's already in the anomaly or what level anomaly it is.

So...if it's going to be anomalies at least to start get rid of the low level ones that aren't profitable and just spawn the ones that are equal to level 4's. It IS 00 after all....and that would at least make this system bearable. But again, 00 should be better than level 4's in empire...so...

See the issue? Thoughts?

Junkie Beverage
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:18:00 - [963]
 

this winter, NGE come to EVE

prepare for the dying of all lights

Vio Geraci
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:20:00 - [964]
 

Edited by: Vio Geraci on 07/11/2009 18:25:48

Should level 4s in complete safety that require a brief grind but otherwise cost no maintenance nor offer any real risk make the same money that end-game players that fight and pay to live in 0.0 do?

Give me a break.

Put another way, I'm so glad that I can mine moons to pay for upgrades so that my corp members can have the same opportunities as nearly foolproof players in highsec do without any of the fuss, risk, or hassle.

Put another way, I never talk to an L4 agent and accidentally get an L2 mission that I need to run in order to get a new L4 mission. Nor do gankers ever lock down my highsec systems and prevent me from finishing my mission, nor do other people compete to run the same mission. Give me a break.

edit: and it's only the top-upgraded systems that offer ~roughly~ the same isk/hour ratio as L4s? seriously? why is ccp so afraid of making 0.0 worth living in?

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:22:00 - [965]
 

Increase all 0.0 bounties by 50% thank you.

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:22:00 - [966]
 

Originally by: Vio Geraci
Edited by: Vio Geraci on 07/11/2009 18:21:47
Should level 4s in complete safety that require a brief grind but otherwise cost no maintenance nor offer any real risk make the same money that end-game players that fight and pay to live in 0.0 do?

Give me a break.

Put another way, I'm so glad that I can mine moons to pay for upgrades so that my corp members can have the same opportunities as nearly foolproof players in highsec do without any of the fuss, risk, or hassle.


you could invest in more pubbie titan lotteries lamo

Tango Zulu
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:24:00 - [967]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
Increase all 0.0 bounties by 50% thank you.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:24:00 - [968]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
Increase all 0.0 bounties by 500% thank you.
hey man i fixed your post for you hope thats okay well its been great cya soon buddy!

Cefte
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:24:00 - [969]
 

Edited by: Cefte on 07/11/2009 18:25:18
Originally by: Soleil Fournier

2) Anomalies are painful. You scan, wait 30 seconds, see the result. If no result warp to next planet try again. Oh I found an anomaly! Warp! Oh blast, someone's already here, lets start over again. Oh found another one! Wait it's the low level anomaly I can't make money on this one, next! That's so frustrating, yet you don't want to add in knowing if someone's already in the anomaly or what level anomaly it is.

See the issue? Thoughts?

Anomaly marker should despawn whenever a player warps into the grid, with the anomaly marker spawning immediately somewhere else.

If you want to upgrade a system, upgrade the quality of the anomalies, not their number. Any time you want an anomaly, scan and warp to it. You'll only jostle another member if they initiate warp between you getting a result and landing in the plex. Lose connection? You'll emergency warp back into the anomaly. If ganking gangs ***** about it, have the anomaly marker respawn as a 'pirates under attack' instead of 'pirate base', not counting towards the three co-incident anomaly markers, and make it even easier to find ratters.

emotua
Gallente
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:24:00 - [970]
 

Wow, you know the funny thing, is that I started telling people on our forums like a week ago, that in no way this was gonna be cheaper, and that's before you annonced how much the first round, of so called upgrades to keep what we had the same, was gonna cost etc...

I pretty much got laughed at, told I was going all emo with the sky is falling!! to take a chill pill, yeah all that.

But damn, I am actually impressed Shocked you guys messed it up far beyond what even I expected...

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:25:00 - [971]
 

Originally by: Guib Lugutrinos
/signed blog

and make Supercaps cost a monthly upkeep.


Just as soon as we have exorbitant fees for jumping through gates and docking in empire.

Will Hunter
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:26:00 - [972]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Alexi Kalashnikov

YOU!... will now have to rat/mine/etc. to upkeep your empire, and not just let swimming lazily in your incoming flows of moon-gold pay everything for you Twisted Evil

0.0 will now require actual effort, teamwork and sacrificing own good for the common good.... Oh the horror!!!!

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if thousands of goons suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something wonderful has happened."

As said before, no matter how this system is initially (it's get adjusted a few times fast after being implemented), it can in NO way be worse than what is today!



0.0 doesnt mantain by itself you have to fight for ownership and people can come and kill you your dreaded moron, this is not your lvl mission running hub

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:27:00 - [973]
 

i agree with everything bobby atlas has said itt thus far

that goes to show how ridiculous these draft numbers are


Galler FLAke
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:29:00 - [974]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
Increase all 0.0 bounties by 50% thank you.


Scrap all those terrible upgrades and just do this. Also remove all frig/cruiser spawns from 0.0.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:29:00 - [975]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 18:35:06

Also...please note that the Drone Region Anomalies drop crap for loot and have no bounties. We're talking 3 plush per battleship, belt rats drop 30-50. And the escalations, which are extremely rare in drone regions...aren't much better. There's also an anomaly that is a pure deathtrap in the drone regions.

Basically, the drone region anomalies are NOT on par with level 4 missions and need to be looked at.

Cefte
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:30:00 - [976]
 

It certainly is amusing to watch the empire dwellers crowing about sticking it to those evil 0.0 crybabies, with their titans and their moon gold and their actually living the experience that EVE advertisement trailers misrepresent.

Pity that not a single 0.0 poster in this thread has complained about moon gold being nerfed as a source of income.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:30:00 - [977]
 

Originally by: dtyk
Originally by: Nyphur
I didn't like your devblog so I wrote my own Razz. It's not perfect and the numbers would need tweaking and discussion but I think it's a much better solution and fits with the goals and promises made about the new sov system.

**snip**


CCP should hire this person. Except the gate sentry guns would be imba.

To be fair, I doubt they even have time to implement the changes I suggested because they've boxed themselves in with the Dec 1st launch date. They've got three weeks to go and I think we're going to get a version of what they've described in the devblog no matter what, just with tweaked numbers based on feedback.

Damn, I'm on the second last page already. That was fast.

igres
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:30:00 - [978]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
i agree with everything bobby atlas has said itt thus far

that goes to show how ridiculous these draft numbers are




Do you understand how ****** bad an idea has to be to have these two agree on something. Its so bad it scares me a bit.

Pwadoc
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:31:00 - [979]
 

The economic system upgrades only increase the supply of various commodities. If the supply increases, and demand remains the same, no net increase in value occurs. Don't you guys have an economist on staff to tell you these things?

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:32:00 - [980]
 

Originally by: Cefte
It certainly is amusing to watch the empire dwellers crowing about sticking it to those evil 0.0 crybabies, with their titans and their moon gold and their actually living the experience that EVE advertisement trailers misrepresent.

Pity that not a single 0.0 poster in this thread has complained about moon gold being nerfed as a source of income.


Unfortunately, I'm not an alliance director, so the moon gold nerf doesn't affect my personal wallet.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:33:00 - [981]
 

Originally by: Pwadoc
The economic system upgrades only increase the supply of various commodities. If the supply increases, and demand remains the same, no net increase in value occurs. Don't you guys have an economist on staff to tell you these things?


this guy is spot on, ccp listen to him. I think the most important thing is an increase in available NPC bounty. Then NPC Loot. These two are the backbone of any regular steady income in a solar system i would say.

Bradley Strider
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:34:00 - [982]
 

So, before Dominion alliances would
- pvp, to get hold of valuable resources, to fund more pvp

After Dominion they need to do
- pve, to pay the bills, to pve some more

Hmmm... Rolling Eyes

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:34:00 - [983]
 

Originally by: Cefte
Pity that not a single 0.0 poster in this thread has complained about moon gold being nerfed as a source of income.
moon gold did need to be nerfed though, lets be fair, its a little redonk as it stands right now

but something needs to fill the void and that something isnt more anomalies for people to not run

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.11.07 18:34:00 - [984]
 

Thanks for keeping the feedback largely constructive so far. As stated in the original blog it is trivial for us to us to change the numbers and we expected this to happen based on the next round of feedback which is happening here.

The original upkeep costs in the blog were designed given a reduction in space you need to hold for income purposes so they increasingly become less as passive income increases (fixed cost/dynamic income) and act as a soft limit and prohibitive factor on how much space you want to claim.

That indeed is the case since the established powerblocks will naturally look to where you can cost cut initially and potentially expand later based on purchase and installation of resource upgrades and more balanced member base to utilise those resources and that means limiting to strategically important systems to begin with regardless of the final upkeep or upgrade figures we arrive at here.

But on with some specific answers to the biggest concerns:

So will we look at making upkeep costs less than stated in the blog due to reasonable feedback?

Yes!

- Sovereignty Structures

The role of the Territorial Claim Unit (TCU) changed since the original figures were generated to be only a marker for sovereignty and the last thing to be removed after a system has been taken (details on this are coming soon in Abathur's next blog). This means the cost for the TCU should be reasonable in terms of upkeep and we are looking at 1 mill per day currently for that dot on the map.

The infrastructure hub is both key to strategic defence and as the base of the solar system upgrades. Here we are looking at mirroring a large starbase in equivalent operational cost so 5 million upkeep per day is more reasonable.

- Strategic Upgrades

The key upgrades here we want to force you to make economic decisions over are naturally the jump bridges and cynosural jammer use. The presence of these two has radical effects on the 'landscape' generally.

We are looking at no upkeep cost on either of the construction arrays and cynosural field generators and then maintain significant costs the cynosural jammer and jump bridges.



Hopefully that answers some concerns on the upkeep fees and that we are looking at the figures and open to adjusting them further.

As for the other issues raised, we are looking at the issues around the resource sites and things like knowing if they are in use or not and will shed more light on the asteroid belt upgrades which are not the ordinary gravimetric sites FYI some of you are mentioning Wink

Keep the constructive feedback coming and we'll update the original blog monday or tuesday with new figures and updates and additional comments to clear some confusion up.

Yogos
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:38:00 - [985]
 

Edited by: Yogos on 07/11/2009 18:39:56
Edited by: Yogos on 07/11/2009 18:39:21
CCP this changes are bad and you can do better.

I understand why you don't want to touch real sec of systems, but why base price for system is same for every one of it while they are not worth it...
If you think that this changes will push plp to "exodus" from empire to for example Paragon Soul with is veeery deep in 0.0 with hard logistic and avarege sec around -0.3 to pay 900mln per system per month then you are very wrong...
It's crap.

CCP you created in HI SEC, RISK FREE systems with unlimited reasources and high profit(L4 missions) and you have there a lot of people.

And now you want to push plp to move to 0.0 giving them additional 5 belts/10 anomalies with you NEED TO PAY FOR 900 mln ISK per month, with risk you can lost ship. It's bad joke ...

Lonewolfnight
Gallente
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:40:00 - [986]
 

The real point here is you have a static fee system to attempt to force a dynamic level. Take a look at tying your fee's to the activity level markers. The more activity in system the lower the cost for sovereignty. Then you can have large fee's for systems that are unused and driver alliance's to either utilize them or drop the sov.

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:41:00 - [987]
 

While that is much better how about addressing the issue that even with the new changes you make more money without any risk running l4 missions then doing ratting/mining in 0.0
More risk means MORE reward, increase all 0.0 rat bounties by 25-50%

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:41:00 - [988]
 

that starts to answer the expense issues, now lets see how you do with making the space worth taking in the first place

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:41:00 - [989]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
words words words


ok good but we really need to hear more about the benefits of the infrastructure improvements because we're all still really skeptical of whether or not it will be worth the time and effort

Hratli Smirks
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:43:00 - [990]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
words words words


ok good but we really need to hear more about the benefits of the infrastructure improvements because we're all still really skeptical of whether or not it will be worth the time and effort



but guys guys TWO GUARANTEED ANOMALIES guys


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