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Zahorite
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:45:00 - [901]
 

Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 07/11/2009 16:36:45
I think the best response by CCP right now would be to announce a delay in the release. This will do two things:

1) Let their player base know they take them seriously and their gameplay - since you're losing a lot of trust as we speak, and that is not good at all.

2) Do a little more development - maybe a month more and use the valuable feedback provided in this obviously disastrous forum response from players.

If I were in charge - these would be my moves to make.

I know delay costs money - but you have to realize you're in damage control mode now.


I think I'd wait a little bit before calling for a delay. I expect that any decent CCP employees are running around Iceland like chickens with their heads cut off right now. However, it's completly possible that something went wrong with that one Dev blog. For instance those costs could be per an upkeep period rather than per a day. Or the upgrade system shown is just very basic and there are dozens of other upgrades already in the system they just didn't talk about in this blog, they may have only shown the upgrades that affect anomalies and not other areas.

I think the first thing they need to do is work on another blog that explains exactly what upgrades tehy have planned and any changes they have planned for anomalies and what exactly those changes are. They should be able to finish that in a day or two at most. Based on the response to that blog they could decide if Dominion needs more work or if simply tweaking the system will save it.

However, they first need to say clearly that they are working on this and if they need to will delay the system. I'm willing to give them a chance to explain some more and maybe even try out the system when it comes out. But if it's as bad as this blog makes it look, I'm going to switch to a different MMO and let my Eve character train while I wait for them to fix it.

Loves Porcsword
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:48:00 - [902]
 

Edited by: Loves Porcsword on 07/11/2009 16:49:58
Edited by: Loves Porcsword on 07/11/2009 16:48:52
All the revenue CCP gets from people with multiple accounts will drop as they will no longer be able to support them with isk earnt / P.L.E.X anymore.

The stupid thing is that these proposals WOULD work if they realised they need to support more than 10people in an typical 0.0 system.

Sciencegeek deathdealer
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:50:00 - [903]
 

Edited by: Sciencegeek deathdealer on 07/11/2009 16:52:11
Originally by: ChronoSphere
Jesus this is a lot of money. For a small alliance with only 3 outposts in a constellation, this is gonna cost 5.67 bil every 28 days. I really hope these upgrades do significantly increase the amount of money you can make, cause I dunno where else one can get the cash. The benefits of the upgrades has to outweigh the costs of the system, else whats the point?



Firstly the objective is to reduce the amount of space every alliance holds. secondly a small alliance wouldnt be holding a constelation, most likey a system, and wouldnt hold 3 outposts. thats a med to larger alliance. Just saying. :)

CCP great job i think this will have its intened effect to help squash the super alliances that hold way too much space. just make sure that the upgrades produce enough isk to be worth it. although from what you have written it will i think.

let the larger aliances begin flameing me with their tears of lost afk regions.

WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:53:00 - [904]
 

Originally by: Normin Bates
So many tears from the large Alliances that control huge areas of empty/unused space.

Claim less systems. Problem solved.

Again, nobody is contesting the issue of large sprawls being prohibitively expensive. They are complaining about controlling ANY systems being prohibitively expensive, and not even because the costs are high, but because the resources that currently sustain those costs are being nerfed into oblivion, and the space upgrades that were supposed to make it more lucrative to offset that are in reality extremely lame and are going to beg the question of what in 0.0 is worth fighting over at all.

Quote:
I would like to know what will happen to the Drone regions though. Without bounty rats they will be abandoned wastelands with no activity or SOV. CCP?

The drone regions are lucrative on the alliance level due to rent charges and refinery taxes, this will not change.

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:54:00 - [905]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We certainly have ideas on how to expand the upgrade system, and everything like number of sites, upkeep cost etc can easily be adjusted, based on feedback (like this thread \o/)


I don't mind more sites, as long as there's something to mine there. Nobody in their right mind is going to sit in a site and mine rocks that will deplete in one and a half cycle. It's a waste of time and will just encourage people to rat and run missions.

I might be overreacting but this thread has repeatedly put forward the masses of (macro) ratters and mission runners. Please, do not ignore the industrialists.


The anomalies won't have rocks, but there are mining upgrades as well, providing more rocks for you to mine :)


Actually, unless you're doing new anomalies, some of them *do* have rocks, but that's not the point.

A hundred 500-unit Arkanor rocks is not nearly as interesting (and is in fact annoying as hell) compared to 20 2500-unit rocks. Miners do not want to waste 25% of their time mining the dregs from some stupid stone. They want to be watching Battlestar, or reading a book, or fiddling with their PSP, or vacuuming the cat. Any of the semi-afk things they do to relax while "playing" eve at the same time... because mining is... --oh, nevermind.

Regardless, grav sites like you have them in W-space. Anything else is merely annoying.

--Krum

Loves Porcsword
Posted - 2009.11.07 16:55:00 - [906]
 

Thats the thing though. these proposals will not have the capability to support anyone let alone the large alliances - the smaller ones will struggle just as much - NPC 0.0 space is where everyone will be.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:01:00 - [907]
 

Cosmic Anomolies need an enourmous overhaul. They need to be switched to regular belt rats with normal bounties and normal loot/salvage to be worth anything. Tell me why I won't just roll an alt and run Level 4s in empire?

Headwires
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:03:00 - [908]
 

I'm not sure where you are getting this "top cosmic anomolies will be worth an empire l4" line of bull****. Maybe if you are only looking at the bounties or rewards you get from an l4, not the lp. CA rats don't drop any modules and have ****ty bounties. If you guys had found some way to tie in hauler spawns they might be worth running as opposed to now where no one runs them. The fact that the big 0.0 isk upgrades are hinged on cosmic anomolies, profession sites, and the equally worthless mining sites is ridiculous.

Aside from ****ting on the ability of 0.0 players to make any isk on par with empire dwellers, this expansion is also going to ruin the motivation for any ~good fights~ to go down seeing as how no one will want to conquer any space and the loss in value of high end moons devalues them as targets. Where are the incentives for any 0.0 alliances to actually conquer space?

Loves Porcsword
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:04:00 - [909]
 

thats it, i just figured it out.

CCP are doing this to make every player in 0.0 have yet another account which is running missions all day every day to earn your 0.0 pilots isk.

Nice ploy to make more money CCP.

Sally Bestonge
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:05:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: Loves Porcsword
thats it, i just figured it out.

CCP are doing this to make every player in 0.0 have yet another account which is running missions all day every day to earn your 0.0 pilots isk.

Nice ploy to make more money CCP.

Power of Two will be available right after Dominion goes live YARRRR!!

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:06:00 - [911]
 

Originally by: Sloth Arnini
Edited by: Sloth Arnini on 07/11/2009 16:21:52
In the absence of actual numbers, I took the announced changes with relative equanimity. I thought that changes would be introduced in such a way that they would at worst be cost-neutral compared to the existing system. I believe, knowing that nullsec alliance players are pretty lazy (being one myself), that they will only travel as far as they need to make their personal isk. In other words, if wealth concentration is increased so that more people can be supported by an alliance's core systems, then they won't travel to the outer fringes of their territory. This exodus from the frontier alone will open up sizable tracts of space, without forcing an alliance to shell out 560 mill/month for every system it lights up on the map (before upgrades).

Many people in Atlas were actually looking forward to the prospect of ditching vast swathes of outlying space, but being rewarded for doing so by having lower sovereignty costs for what we chose to keep. As it stands, we're likely going to have to abandon space, with no reward for doing so (i.e. we'll be paying as much if not more than we do now but still with less space).

That is why you're getting this deeply concerned post from me, and I imagine it is a sentiment shared by many nullsec dwellers. We've endured the current broken system for years and put up with the burdens it puts upon our playing time. We were hoping for a reprieve with Dominion. Instead we're having more burdens thrust upon us. That is why we're upset, not simply because we're expected to dismember our multiregional empires. That caricature is peddled by clueless morons with their own agendas.

To CCP, I say this: make the carrots bigger and the stick smaller. Perhaps change the cost of sov so that instead of being a flat sum/system, it increases with the number of systems. A sov stacking penalty, if you will. Though abuses will need to be managed somehow.


No taxation without representation!!

Er...

Another point, related to this, that I've been wanting to fit into my other, now numerous, vents:

Compressing an alliance population reduces outlying "tripwire" ratters/miners, who normally would report incoming hostiles to appropriate channels for home defense. If you jam everyone into a single constellation there will literally be only seconds warning to respond to an attack.

Ratting/PVE ships are very different from PVP ships needed to defend space, yet there are no system upgrades to address the intelligence issue or "harden" a system from attack!

Amazing.

--Krum

Abraham Goldstein
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:07:00 - [912]
 

NPC Agents you can buy as outpost upgrades are the obvious solution to what you guys are trying to accomplish, is it that hard to code in? Stop spending all our subscription dues on rotten shark meat, blow, or whatever and hire some decent coding nerds to get this done.

Jen Ravenlock
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:07:00 - [913]
 

Edited by: Jen Ravenlock on 07/11/2009 17:11:16
Why would anyone fight for territory over systems that they likely can't afford to keep?

Edit: I am not seeing how any of this places an incentive on what defines the game: killing one-another. It seems to be less about building an empire and conquering the map, and more about huddling in a few systems shooting NPCs.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:09:00 - [914]
 

So. Some numbers - someone tell me what I missed :-)

As it looks like on sisi, upgrades don't increase sov cost.

An alliance with 2 stations (one with JB), 1 moon miner elsewhere, and 1 otherwise useless logistics system for a JB connection to empire will need 271m ISK/day to pay for the sov and the four death stars.

Without upgrades, that little empire easily sustains 1 person ratting in each outpost system. So if you want to rat/mine for 8h straight (means 3 "shifts"), that's 1 (pilots) * 2 (systems) * 3 (shifts) = 12 pilots occupied. Each of them needs to pay 22.6m ISK per day for the privilege to rat in a system for 8 hours. Bit much? Yes. But you can upgrade fast.

PM 1: Now you can have 3 people rat at once. 3*2*3 = 15m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights.
PM 2: 5*2*3 = 9m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights
PM 5: 11*2*3 = 4.1m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights.

And after that, you have paid for sov and all your death star fuel. All moon income is pure profit.

This ignores:
1) Miners, who can easily double that amount of pilots
2) Any other ISK-making ability with other upgrades
3) The other two cyno-jammed systems you have that people could rat and mine in
4) The ability to take and upgrade another system for 30m ISK/day.
5) The ability to rat in neighboring systems that do not have sov.

And you don't even have to do it yourself - if you want sov, find some pet to work in your systems and pay dues. They will cramp the system up, making it a good target for hostile PvP groups. Which in turn means more pew pew for your PvP pilots.

GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:12:00 - [915]
 

Edited by: GavinCapacitor on 07/11/2009 17:16:50
Edited by: GavinCapacitor on 07/11/2009 17:12:44
1. Nothing about moons. R64 moons will still be the huge cash cows they are today (relative to people that do not have them).

2. Nothing to upgrade ratting. True sec is still true sec so nothing changes.

3. Linear scaling of cost per solar system. I thought it would be exponential (or between linear and exponential) because small alliances with few systems would then have it easier than, say, the goons who hold vast swaths of space.

tl,dr; All aboard the failboat.

edit: I can't spell.
edit2: Still can't spell.

Loves Porcsword
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:15:00 - [916]
 

3 people ratting at once... jeez what do you rat in ?

A 20belt system can support 2 ratters maximum, so that reduces your number drastically.

A plex can be ran solo easily.

So a system with 20belts and upgrades can only support 10-15 people. Where does the rest of the alliance make its money from ?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:15:00 - [917]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Cosmic Anomolies need an enourmous overhaul. They need to be switched to regular belt rats with normal bounties and normal loot/salvage to be worth anything. Tell me why I won't just roll an alt and run Level 4s in empire?


here I will answer my own question:

because Delve has Level 4 agents!

SavageBastard
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:17:00 - [918]
 

Edited by: SavageBastard on 07/11/2009 17:19:52
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
So. Some numbers - someone tell me what I missed :-)

As it looks like on sisi, upgrades don't increase sov cost.

An alliance with 2 stations (one with JB), 1 moon miner elsewhere, and 1 otherwise useless logistics system for a JB connection to empire will need 271m ISK/day to pay for the sov and the four death stars.

Without upgrades, that little empire easily sustains 1 person ratting in each outpost system. So if you want to rat/mine for 8h straight (means 3 "shifts"), that's 1 (pilots) * 2 (systems) * 3 (shifts) = 12 pilots occupied. Each of them needs to pay 22.6m ISK per day for the privilege to rat in a system for 8 hours. Bit much? Yes. But you can upgrade fast.

PM 1: Now you can have 3 people rat at once. 3*2*3 = 15m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights.
PM 2: 5*2*3 = 9m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights
PM 5: 11*2*3 = 4.1m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights.

And after that, you have paid for sov and all your death star fuel. All moon income is pure profit.

This ignores:
1) Miners, who can easily double that amount of pilots
2) Any other ISK-making ability with other upgrades
3) The other two cyno-jammed systems you have that people could rat and mine in
4) The ability to take and upgrade another system for 30m ISK/day.
5) The ability to rat in neighboring systems that do not have sov.

And you don't even have to do it yourself - if you want sov, find some pet to work in your systems and pay dues. They will cramp the system up, making it a good target for hostile PvP groups. Which in turn means more pew pew for your PvP pilots.




What you "missed" is that people don't pay a daily fee to rat. People fight for their space, they do the logistics and hard work to make that happen. Why the hell would you spend a bunch of money and time fighting for space for the privilege of paying a daily fee to rat in it. Nobody pays a daily fee for the privilege of running level 4 missions. 0.0 space is tough to get, tough to keep and tough to live in. The rewards should mirror that reality and these changes as a whole completely ignore it.


Also, mining is not worth doing in every system. Some places have great, valuable ores. Others do not. Mining to make 5 mil/hour in veldspar when you can rat at 20-30 mil an hour in belts is ridiculous. Or run level 4's in empire for what...50 mil an hour? More? All without worrying about getting ganked. People have bots do it for them for ****s sake.

Bradley Strider
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:17:00 - [919]
 

In its current form the patch fails on several high-level points:

- It set out to incentivize 0.0, yet it upped the burden of being there while lowering rewards.
- It set out to make it easier for smaller entities to enter 0.0. While there will be huge chunks of unclaimed space, the initial investments and the player numbers to actually make it brake even do not support this goal.
- It makes pvp almost superfluous, since there is not much to fight over (I guess we'll only see "fun gangs", no more strategic fleet fights). At the same time, it makes doing lots of PvE in 0.0 almost a necessity. Which, give the current proposal, has no advantage over doing it in empire.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:20:00 - [920]
 

Originally by: GavinCapacitor

1. Nothing about moons. R64 moons will still be the huge cash cows they are today (relative to people that do not have them).


R64 moons will be about as worthless as jaspet with the massiv prom/dypro nerf.

It's all about the R32 moons.


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1207775

Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:21:00 - [921]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Stoffer, you don't like replying to posts which directly address you, but you insist on defending your new sov system and seeding the lie that increased anomalies constitute good income.

Did you know 15-20 belts are required to support one continuous ratter? Adding more people to the mix drastically decreases hourly income. Unless you feel under 20m per hour is an acceptable income for 0.0 pilots who need to help pay for sov upgrades. I certainly don't have time to grind ISK because I have a Real Job.


I'm not "defending" the new sov system, I'm hoping to clarify what I've been working on, and collect feedback to make the changes that are needed.

I disagree with your assesment of the belts needed, and part of the reasoning for adding anomalies and not just more belts, is that belts are much more difficult resources to manage than anomalies.


Where did you hire your programmers from again?

Dirac Spinor
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:21:00 - [922]
 

The ideas behind this patch show a poor understanding of the basic economics of 0.0 over just trying to break up the major 0.0 players and create room for smaller entities. The execution is ham fisted and short sighted as the sov cost will prevent smaller entities setting up in 0.0 anyway. You cannot make 0.0 better by pricing people out of it without scaling the rewards of 0.0. So let's take a brief look at the rewards under the new system.

Increased Profession Sites: These are a waste of time running I can make better ISK ratting, everyone has a ship data interface now because they also drop in lowsec sites. Thus, the demand for goods from radar and magneto sites is low and the profit is worse than ratting even though finding these sites is much more effort. In short, unless profession sites themselves are boosted this is pointless.

Increased Anomalies: Worthless, anomalies are not worth running because they offer less ISK per hour than ratting.

Increased Grav Sites: Mining is not profitable unless you want to run several accounts with specialized ships. Seriously, I'd like to see how many of these sites actually get run right now as oppose to just despawn. If most of them just despawn right now why make more of them appear in a certain system?

Increased Wormholes: Worthless, how many wormholes currently collapse due to too many ships using them? The only way this reward is worth anything is if wormholes are actually being actively used and collapsed due to ship traffic. This is not the case, out of all the wormholes I've scanned I have only seen one that was close to collapse due to ship traffic and every other had no mass used and was reaching the end of it's natural lifetime.

Increased DED sites: I don't think this one will actually make that much of a difference unless the increase in probability is significant. If this is so then we'll see an increase in jita supply of rare goods while demand remains static thus decreasing the profit for people who run them. Overall, this one doesn't really change anything but will result in perhaps a little more spread of wealth or a crashing of in the price of rare dead space modules.

Thus, we see that to most players the highest form of low effort income solely based in 0.0 is ratting. Under the changes no systems can support more ratters than today and there is no increase in profits associated with ratting except the ability to anchor worthless upgrades. Thus, 0.0 on this front has received no tangible buff that cannot be disproved by simply asking 0.0 players how do you make ISK there?

At this point we haven't even looked at the moon income which appears to be being heavily nerfed. Thus, there are no longer treasure troves in 0.0 and all this patch has achieved is turning 0.0 into a harmogenised mess where no space is worth more than any other.

So what are we left with? All I can see is that all the current benefits of 0.0 are going to go away (jumpbridges, Cynojammers etc) while the ISK sources remain the same or are nerfed. This constitutes a heavy nerf to 0.0 as oppose to a buff. Ratting seems to remain the easiest low effort way of making ISK in 0.0. So the now the question is why remain in 0.0 as oppose to going to pirate NPC 0.0?

Think about it, you don't have to worry about the new horrible Sov System, -1.0 truesec in every system and access to agents. With the current mechanics this is the end result, Pirate NPC 0.0 now becomes the most valuable space in the game.


Daneb Christofph
Caldari
Red Fleet Corp
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:23:00 - [923]
 

What about prices for Military/Industry upgrades? How much it will be? Or we must pay only for Sovereignty and Strategic upgrades?

Sergi Povitch
Gatehoppers
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:23:00 - [924]
 

Why will sov be link to isk outlay? How is that an ingame action. Does the US pay to keep sov over puerto rico? No we took it by force of arms and it ours....

Jadal McPieksu
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:28:00 - [925]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We cannot currently put level four agents into 0.0 stations owned by players. I completely agree that it would be a very good solution, as they are one of the few non-finite resources, but it's simply not possible at present. I can promie you that it is high on the list of stuff many of us would love to see, though.


think small, act small, think like a n00b . .. .

not all agents live in space Rolling Eyes you can find some agents at gates into certain 0.0 COSMOs systems :/ NOTHING is stoping you from adding agents beacons directly into space.



Bingo. Could even add them to moon warpin areas, so you could "claim" them (sort of) by planting a Deathstar POS on the moon as a welcoming committee for roaming mission runners.

Nhor Haen
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:28:00 - [926]
 

The upkeep cost is doable. High, and possibly a barrier to small alliances trying to establish themselves in 0.0, but doable for a large alliance.

But if you want people to move out to, much less fight for 0.0 it must, absolutely, be worth more than L4 missions. If you're running an anomaly in 0.0 you have to worry about being ganked by hostiles. If there are already hostiles in the system, you just have to sit in a POS or outpost and wait for them to leave. If there are 10 people farming 10 instant spawning anomalies then you have to deal with the fact that 90% of the time when you warp in to one, someone else is already running it. Why deal with any of this when you don't get anything for it?

If moon mining is supposed to be worth it, then why not just have the moon miners run their towers while you mission in Empire? You don't even need sov to moon mine, so doing this would save you the billions of isk in maintenance. If the moon mining is worth enough you might setup some cyno beacons or jump bridges, but there's still no reason whatsoever to PvE in 0.0.

I predict that, with the current system, no one will bother claiming sov or upgrading their systems other than maybe a few jump bridges for the rich alliances. Their members will continue ratting and moon mining as before, but sov and the upgrade hub will never be worth it. In fact, they wouldn't be worth it if the maintenance cost was 50m a month.

Loves Porcsword
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:30:00 - [927]
 

As stated before - they wont take any of these ideas on board as they want you ALL to have yet another account running empire l4 missions.

Clearly a brain fart of an idea from CCP to increasse their revenue - but it will backfire and decrease the amount of people playing.

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:32:00 - [928]
 

Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt

No, you'd more likely have "administrative" alliances that exist to do nothing but hold on to isolated chunks of space or jump bridge serial systems, set blue to everyone in the "real" alliance which lives in that space.


It would make more sense to have renters/friendlies live their and you can use their JBs.

Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt
Having it be prohibitively expensive to claim a large number of systems achieves this goal by itself. It's technically still possible to have a sprawling Empire, but it will be logistically more difficult to defend, you won't get DED mails from everywhere and you won't be able to do things like cynojam an entire region.


No, with the current system that CCP is introducing, it is impossible to have a large empire. Having it scale non linearly also achieves this so this point doesn't really matter since they both accomplish the same task. However the current system doesnt allow for small alliances to be present.

Caius Severus
Galaxy Punks
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:36:00 - [929]
 

The quality of argument in this thread is awful.

If you disagree with something, say why. Not "My personal style of play will change, therefore it is crap", or "Nerf someone else's play style, not mine". Neither of these are valid reasons.

Be constructive, or you might as well not post.

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:38:00 - [930]
 

Originally by: Caius Severus
The quality of argument in this thread is awful.

If you disagree with something, say why. Not "My personal style of play will change, therefore it is crap", or "Nerf someone else's play style, not mine". Neither of these are valid reasons.

Be constructive, or you might as well not post.



You, sir, have not seen many of the posts stating why. Most of the other posts are agreeing. The more people spam this with agreeing that the system is fail, the higher chance we have of getting it to change.


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