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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:54:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Mr McAlt
but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.



What we're telling you is that none of the upgrades are even worth the cost of the upkeep.

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Mr McAlt
Originally by: Drave McClay
This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are ****, everything but the 10/10 complex is ****..


The point is that it is more difficult to own too much space, giving smaller entities a chance to move into the space the big alliances are going to have to leave. It is more expensive to run a system than before, but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.


No. It won't. I didn't see something like "oh yeah and rat bounties were tripled across the board" or "we have introduced super-ores to 0.0", so there's nothing here that increases a player's personal income. Oh yeah, and anomalies (as far as I know) can't spawn officers, another way in which it is inferior to normal belt ratting.

Gripen
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [63]
 

There is nothing about the way to reduce indicies by killing local population... So no new incentives for small gangs many have expected from this expansion? Crying or Very sad

PaulTheWise
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 06/11/2009 22:05:45
I might also add that they did mention the cost is around 5 POSes per system, so it begs the question of how are you managing right now?
Very, very, very easy, and I get the feeling quite everyone is overlooking this (especially CCP, with prices like this): Reactions.

Even with very common moons I, personally, without any help from my corp or alliance (other then the use of JBs), can keep up 6 large towers and make 1 billion profit per month (probably more, but I CBA to do the maths right now :P ). Towers are self sufficient if you're not a total ****** (and are willing to empty the silos regularly).

As this 'Dominion' doesn't seem to add any real way to add revenue it's just a 2b ISK sink/month, unless we're all missing something someplace.

PMolkenthin
TunDraGon
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:56:00 - [65]
 

I'm a bit dissapointed by these changes too. The only worth-while upgrades I see there are maybe the Entrapment and the Ore prospecting array. How about an upgrade that massively increases the amount/quality of NPC spawns in the belts? At least that way a 30 man corp could all grind rats in a 10 belt system and make some decent ISK.
Also, I was hoping the military upgrades would include something to improve the defensive capabilities of a system, ie gate sentries, cloak jammers, or something cool so we could fortify and protect our system from invaders. Sad
If the amount of ISK that can be made in an upgraded system isnt worth the cost of upgrading, then nobody will bother.

Jelek Coro
Erase Rewind
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:57:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Jelek Coro on 06/11/2009 23:05:50
I thought you wanted people in nul sec?

Those upgrades are quite laughable (see the Goon posts for details).

How many people do you expect a system to realistically hold with those si called upgrades?

NPC nul sec will get very crowded, the rest will be empty Laughing

Just to add... by removing POS use for sov you have nerfed big time the value of faction pos equipment thereby nerfing the value of exploration sites. Did you even consider this? The amount of faction pos that will hit the market will crash it ugh



Stretchmeat Crotchquake
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:57:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake on 06/11/2009 22:58:30

The first thing you should be asking when you design these upgrades are "are these actually more lucrative than a single level 4 agent?"

The answer in all of these cases is "no," and with massive upkeep costs attached and nerfed moon values, 0.0 will be nothing more than a massive ISK sink. There will be virtually no reason to base out of conquerable space instead of NPC space, since NPC space will have better perks and no upkeep costs except office rentals.

CONCEPTUALLY, this is a good approach, but anomalies need a massive buff and the number of these additions need massive buffs as well. 10 anomalies is not a good upgrade for a system that is supposed to scale to 100+ people per solar system.

Riu Stuka
Caldari
GeoCorp.
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:00:00 - [68]
 

How shall we as a corp even pay for 1 system with the great moons we have in our space. All we got that was left is a CC reactin, well i not see that paying us the 1 to 2 billion for the system.

And as mentioned before, what will the corp bring the upgrades. How will my corp be able to profit form the neutral ratting in our system, or even the blue/alliance mate, i only can tax the bunties of my corp members... everything else will just disapear into personal wallets.

And we still have to pay fuel for our reaction POS's... so theres nothing to save here either...

Elo Behram
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:01:00 - [69]
 

anomaly rats are awful compared to belt rats, they're tougher to kill and have nerfed salvage/loot tables

hth

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:02:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 06/11/2009 23:21:30
It's great to see CCP's anti-solo concepts ("We're gonna make it suck unless you're in a big corp") get applied to 0.0 ("We're gonna make it suck unless you're in a big alliance").

How the heck are the little guys supposed to get a foothold in 0.0 with these crappy upgrades at these crappy prices?

I suppose there is a reason you guys put out this blog on a Friday afternoon.

Hykke
Free Imperial Vikings
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:02:00 - [71]
 

I think CCP forgot to add the "Asteroid belt beakon" upgrade, that spawns 5 more asteroid belts per level, available for public mining and ratting.

As well as the "Concord communication jammer" that lowers the actual security rating of the system by -0.3 per level, causing nasty rats to appear in the belts

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:04:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Hykke
I think CCP forgot to add the "Asteroid belt beakon" upgrade, that spawns 5 more asteroid belts per level, available for public mining and ratting.

As well as the "Concord communication jammer" that lowers the actual security rating of the system by -0.3 per level, causing nasty rats to appear in the belts


yes more battlecruiser/cruiser spawns to plow through

wait no there should not be a single goddamn battlecruiser/cruiser/frigate rat in 0.0 unless its faction.

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:04:00 - [73]
 

I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:05:00 - [74]
 

It was mentioned by CCP Sisyphus in this thread that there would be a decay mechanic in place. Some questions:

How will decay be implemented?

Will there be a way to know what the actual point accrual will be per-action?

Will we be able to see the points required for the next level?

Will the points-per-level be a static value like the number of days with sov, or will it scale based on the available resources per-system (# belts, ore quality, truesec, etc)?

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:08:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Niding on 06/11/2009 23:08:32
I see little incentive to actually upgrade the systems considering the cost.

As has been pointed out; there doesnt seem like there are any good ways to tap into the potential wealth given by upgrades.

Neutrals that might use these 100 man belt systems (or whatever they are claimed to be able to accomodate) are rarely channeling isk generated into
the SOV holding alliances wallet.

So, either NRDS gets abandoned and we exploit the wealth ourselves, or we subsidise the 0.0 project with even MORE high sec generated isk.

Cant really see it being worth it. Better off running high sec missions, and fly around 0.0 shooting stuff "deathmatch" style tbh.

A pity.

Btw: how will this encourage smaller entities to build themselves a patch of SOV?

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:08:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Quesa
I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic.


Well, like us or not, we're knowledgable about the game and share the same concerns about it as every other 0.0 dweller. We just got to the thread faster Wink

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Quesa
I may like shooting them but I am actually agreeing, strongly I might add, with Goon posters on this topic.
see what you've done ccp

you've got atlas agreeing with us

this is how bad of ideas you have

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
Moderated.Applebabe

The upgrade is ment to draw tons of money out of the whole system. Players that strive for personal profits are not welcome in 0.0, they can run LvL 4 missions.

0.0 is about groups playing together, so all the money that can be made in a system is ment to fuel the alliance/corps holding the systems.

I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.

Stop thinking about yourself and being egoistic. Dominion is ment to make people work together for their systems and space, and not just have a few people fueling the POSs.

This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh.

iP0D
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:09:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Gripen
There is nothing about the way to reduce indicies by killing local population... So no new incentives for small gangs many have expected from this expansion? Crying or Very sad


Your new incentive is to cloak and camp, and if you see something use black ops portal to bring in 20 bombers, and thus kill off any people that try to make use of space that they just spent lots of isk on to upgrade, and cost their alliance not just the income but also cost them their jammers and bridges since they cannot do enough ratting to keep them online.

Crylnish Hlar
Vultus Intentus Constructum
Sons of RA
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:12:00 - [80]
 

CCP - you've actually made me step out from behind the forum-alt mask for once! After the continual hype, the slow trickle of information over the past few months, Chribba's astounding ability to get the top 5 posts of all Dominion related Dev Blog's, you have presented us with this?

I honestly can't find it in myself to continue to play EVE, this isn't a financial decision - I can pay for PLEX cards easily. I've dithered and hung on for an extra month or so as my activity drops off but to come out with an ineffectual system in the face of such expectation is shocking. As many have previously stated the system does not provide sufficient ISK to support a community of any size in 0.0, hence neither the goal of incentivising 0.0 nor developing small "hardcore" communities have been achieved.

I hereby hand you my mehh-quit (think emoragequit but more apathy, total in fact) in order to guide my PC into the light of new sci-fi MMO's such as the upcoming Star Trek/Wars/Gate, Jumpgate Evolution and Earthrise - all of which I predict will negatively affect your market share in the coming months. Whats your plan for this?

One thing I will applaud - your marketting is well targetted, I can't get away from those sodding misleading adverts. Has any player actually ever considered a freighter with an escort? A rifter ending up in a 0.0 cap fight?

Goodbye EVE,
signed Cyrl

sue denim
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:13:00 - [81]
 

1 hidden belt per level? and you expect alliances to start packing in people for that? :P

Olari Vanderfall
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:15:00 - [82]
 

What is that sucking sound? The ISK sink!

I hope with all this isk flowing out of 0.0 there is actually an incentive to conquer the space. I would like the e-peen upgrade module please.

What are the incentives anyway?

iP0D
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.




Hehe, that should be fun then when you and your buddies are the only target around in an area and the cloaking griefing begins :-)

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting.

How do you expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing?


This

Vio Geraci
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:16:00 - [85]
 

This is pathetic and I think I speak for the entirety of 0.0 when I say that we expected better from you. What the hell.

Jordan Musgrat
Convergent
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:17:00 - [86]
 

This is pretty bad CCP. Don't tell me that's all there is, you've had too long to work on this, and hyped it up too much. All this looks like is 10/10 plexes in every other system, and while I'll love my 50m Corpus Xtype Armor Reps, it's pretty ****.

There is no incentive here to holding space, and therefore, none to moving to 0.0. Give us an incentive before you tax the **** out of us.

Arra Lith
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:19:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Arra Lith on 06/11/2009 23:22:45
Edited by: Arra Lith on 06/11/2009 23:20:52
CCP devs are sick or they just dont play EVE and put random numbers ?
Here is some calculations for costs for 1 system:
1. New sov costs:
- flag : 300m (30x 10m daily)
- infrastructure hub : 600m (30x 20m daily)
- upgrades strategic : 1200m (30x (1+4+12+25 => 42 m) daily
- upgrades industry / military : around 500m propably per path

Total: above 2 b - just for sov, and propably more for upgrades (2,5+ b monthly)

2. Now:
1-3 deathstars (cynojammer, jump bridges) : ~360m - deathstars for jump bridges and cyno jammers will stay in new sov too
5+ industry poses : those dont cost anything, as they earn enough to cover fuel and make some profit (especially if placed at some valuable moon).

Total: 360m monthly

For me thats like 7x higher costs than it is now, and 30x more than cost of mantaining 1 deathstar POS. Deathstars for JBs and for cyno jammers will still be needed (well if someone decide to claim sov...). Industry POSes will stay as well (maybe will get moved to low sec if 0.0 will be too risky and too far away without JB network).

With new system there will be maybe 10 upgraded systems per region by very rich alliances and regions, and maybe 1 or 2 in poorer regions (if there is any point at placing sov there - as there will be no way to get those 3 billions back monthly from those upgrades). I though Dominion was meant to interest more players with 0.0, especially poorer alliances - with those prices only most wealthy ones will play with sov.

Overall seems nice idea, but with those prices noone will use it. With claiming 15 systems alliance will spend isk equal to 1 titan or 20+ dreads.
Maybe thats no big costs for rich alliances - but what is better: paying 3b (per system) to earn slightly more, or pay nothing and earn same money as it is now ?

Pnuka
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:20:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 06/11/2009 23:09:51
I alone can pay 2 Billion for an upgraded system by simply ratting in it on a daily basis. And now have 10 people do it and the bill is absolutely laughable.
This is the best thing CCP has ever came up with tbh.


I'll give you 35m a hour of ratting in a 1.0 true sec system between bounties and loot. That's 57 hours of ratting you have to do in 14 days, or 4 hours of ratting a day. So no you can't.

And nothing in this suggests 10 people can rat in one system.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake

The first thing you should be asking when you design these upgrades are "are these actually more lucrative than a single level 4 agent?"



this

Trishtan DeMore
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2009.11.06 23:22:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 06/11/2009 23:25:21
Want ... stuff ... you ... smoked

when you came up with those numbers. better cut them down to 1/4 atm at the very least!

Even I do understand your target: The insanely rich alliances in this game. But you slam the door in front of every small alliance. The thing you'd like to do and the numbers you call for it are contradicting. Because this will not attract even more scare off people to go to 0.0.


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