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CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:18:00 - [571]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hi Cool

About the anomalies:

Anomalies are a good way of injecting single player content into a certain system. The way it's currently set up is that the site instantly re-spawns when run, meaning it's not three sites per day; it's three sites constantly. Financially, having guaranteed access to NPCs should provide a much more solid stream of income than jumping from belt to belt, hoping that rats have re-spawned. We could have added more belts to systems, but why would we want you to jump around in a growing list of belts when we can just have you jump into a single anomaly and make money?

They were not put in as "OH GOD I STRUCK GOLD" sites. You don't make 0.0 financially inhabitable for thousands by adding extra officer spawns, you do it by providing a constant flow of content that makes a good amount of money, which is what the anomalies do. The distribution of sites is made so that the higher the upgrade, the higher quality anomaly. Financially, the top tier anomalies that will be spawning are much more profitable than mining and ratting currently is, and pretty much on par with level 4s. Added to that, they have a chance of escalation.


Sorry stoffer but **** this. 3 sites that RESPAWN INSTANTLY that you have to PROBE DOWN which TAKES TIME so its NOT INSTANT. It is still subpar to mission running even assuming you are lucky enough to chain them without some ass probing it down before you.


They are anomalies, not signatures. You can scan them down in about four seconds with the onboard scanner, or a single probe. It is pretty much as instant as it gets dude. Also remember that you can get quite a few more sites than 3 :)


How about that "Why is level 4's the cap for income?" We can either run level 4's in empire in COMPLETE SAFETY without paying 2b a month to own the system or ya, get anally ****d financially for what amounts to "almost meeting empire isk making"

No Stoffer, just no. 2b a month to support 15 people doesn't even sound remotely ****ing acceptable.


.........

Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:19:00 - [572]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I completely agree that systems will be able to sustain about 10, possibly 15 people active at one time (which to be fair is a pretty massive increase from what we can do now). It's not the perfect solution, but it gives us a pretty solid base to work from.

In terms of the upkeep costs, remember that you'll be getting rid of towers and the fuel costs for said towers. If it turns out that the system cost here is backbreaking for alliances, it's something we can re-visit.


Firstly, anomalies do nothing to expand capacity unless they get a substantial boost. They are currently worthless. You can put a hundred in every system, they'd still be worthless.

Secondly, you only get rid of the tower fuelling if you don't need the minerals to partly offset the insane cost of sov.

Thirdly, who the crap puts 5 large towers in an average system?

Forthly, even if people were putting 5 large towers in systems, why would they do so without R64 wealth to pay for it?

ardik
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:21:00 - [573]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: DaiTengu
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Some words to ponder, from someone in your industry:

We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players.

—John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment


What these changes tell me as a paying customer for nearly four years running and 0.0 resident is that you no longer wish for me, my alliance mates, my allies, or even my enemies to ever *bother* you ever again with our problems by making conquerable 0.0 so tedious and unrewarding to own or fight over that we pettily squabble over the limited tracts of NPC 0.0 until our eyes bleed from boredom. This is not the "grand sandbox" you've pitched not only to us but the world as well to lift EVE up from the dregs of WoW clones.

I see in these changes, and feel free to chuckle at this given my corporation, an attack on how I and both friend and foe alike conduct ourselves in this game, and a not-so-veiled punishment for all the "trouble" we've caused you and workload we've made you do to improve *our* game experience. Us, the vocal minority who choose not to stay in Empire and play WoW With Spaceships for our chosen kill-mission company or agency.

Yes, we are the minority in your game. But we also are the people who make the stories and headlines that keep EVE relevant. I simply ask that you don't forget that. You have a unique opportunity available to you when you return, not that I doubt you're going to ever see my message here on the 17th or 18th page, to prevent EVE from being SWG Part Deux, where you saw the consequences-to-be and held back, instead of surged forward thinking it would bring you new blood to wash away the whining and tiresome masses of old.

Your call, CCP.


When I read this devblog, Sony's NGE is the first thing that sprang to my mind as well. It's not that we abhor change, it's that we abhor terrible changes. These are terrible changes. There's no way one system is going to support more than 10-15 people, and there's no way it's going to be cost effective. The devs say they love their epic space battles, but no one is going to want to fight over 0.0 space, and it's going to cause people to quit playing eve en-masse.

I'm excited over the changes to supercapitals, but the sov changes are going to mean that we're not going to get to use them.

I hung on to SWG for quite awhile after the NGE, but I, too, eventually quit as I saw the game I loved fall apart, and all my friends quit playing.

If this goes through you're going to lose quite a few subscribers, and you're going to get a ton of bad press. Go back to the drawing board with this, even if you have to delay the expansion a month or more. Do it right, or don't do it at all.




I completely agree that systems will be able to sustain about 10, possibly 15 people active at one time (which to be fair is a pretty massive increase from what we can do now). It's not the perfect solution, but it gives us a pretty solid base to work from.

In terms of the upkeep costs, remember that you'll be getting rid of towers and the fuel costs for said towers. If it turns out that the system cost here is backbreaking for alliances, it's something we can re-visit.
Ahahaha, your numbers aren't even close to being correct. Not even in the ballpark.

Hey CCP, make some simple objectives, make them worth fighting over, make them rare enough so we'll actually see fights. Please, no dumb flag/stop **** over worthless outposts which there are about 200 too many of already and you'll never be able to make rare enough to be worth fighting over, just step away from outposts, there is no inherent value in outposts, most of them aren't even worth keeping sov'd. Keep it simple.

Arcika Toalen
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:21:00 - [574]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?


Stoffer, stop trolling please this is serious buiznizz.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:23:00 - [575]
 

Stoffer, as much as this thread needs blue bar replies right now...you *really* need to stop posting.

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:23:00 - [576]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


Then why go through the trouble of going to 0.0 ?

Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:24:00 - [577]
 

Edited by: Bonny Lee on 07/11/2009 11:24:48
So you say a lvl4 inclusive LPs can be matched by anomalies?
Ok so we get what empire gets but not in Safety? Great Idea. Thats Risk vs Reward at its Best.

Perhaps you should add some more Anomalies then cause there are only
two worh doing (Sanctum, Haven).

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:24:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?


You mean the moon mining we aren't doing any more because of all the money we are saving for sov by not putting up towers?

Or do you mean the moon mining where costs have risen and yield stayed the same because of the distribution of value among more moons? (this was a good idea btw, but needed to make moon mining towers cheaper in the process)

Originally by: Morphisat
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


Then why go through the trouble of going to 0.0 ?


Because as you know, lvl 4s require your corp to pay 6 bill per month per system to mission in.... oh wait.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:25:00 - [579]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
I completely agree that systems will be able to sustain about 10, possibly 15 people active at one time (which to be fair is a pretty massive increase from what we can do now). It's not the perfect solution, but it gives us a pretty solid base to work from.


As pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Motsu or Irjunen (or Curse, or Stain, or NPC Delve) is able to sustain infinite numbers of people through level 4s, the upgrade cost is 0 ISK per month, and there's no risk of losing your upgrades through invasion or your stations being captured and your assets locked in.

CCP has repeatedly stated that the aim of Dominion is to attract more empire-dwellers, including primarily PvErs to look at 0.0 . Why would any of them want to bother?

Quote:
In terms of the upkeep costs, remember that you'll be getting rid of towers and the fuel costs for said towers. If it turns out that the system cost here is backbreaking for alliances, it's something we can re-visit.


The problem is that maintaining the ISK value of 0.0 is a critical part of the 0.0 system. If you released a particular ship or probable anomaly type pre-nerfed, its not a big deal to adapt, people will just fly a different ship or avoid running that anomaly until you have the chance to go back and fix it. If you pull the rug out from under the feet of the entirety of 0.0 space to the point where holding space is costing more money than anyone is making from it, the only way for us to adapt is to say 'screw this, back to empire to grind L4s guys'.

I mean, if the 0.0 sovereignty map is partially or completely abandoned by January, only for us all to rush back in 6 months later when you guys get around to fixing this nonsense, then I guess that would be quite funny but I don't think it is the result you're aiming for.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:25:00 - [580]
 

Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

CCP seeding R64 moons in providence?

I personally dont even have that much issues with the anomalies, considering belt ratting here in provi is crap. However lets start by dividing the sov costs by 5, and then repost the blog.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:28:00 - [581]
 

You're ****ing trolling. There's no other explanation for this. None.

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:28:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?


Oh yeah I forgot, everybody and their dog is moonmining. Especially those smaller alliances that you wanted to occupy 0.0 space after dominion.

I do hope you realise you represent CCP in this thread. Posting this nonsense doesn't exactly help.

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:28:00 - [583]
 

Edited by: Kanatta Jing on 07/11/2009 11:31:17
Originally by: Caliph Scorpionsting
I don't like anomalies, they are less money than ratting.


This is sometimes true and sometimes not. I think it's more an idea that has taken hold among Goons then it is a fact. Some anomalies offer sufficiently greater rat volume to more then compensate for the lower bounties.

And no I won't argue that chains of anomalies are worth more then chains of lvl 4 missions.

ardik
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:28:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 07/11/2009 11:01:47
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

You don't make 0.0 financially inhabitable for thousands by adding extra officer spawns, you do it by providing a constant flow of content that makes a good amount of money,

This is correct.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

which is what the anomalies do


This is completely wrong.


Wanna know what a steady, reliable and good income stream is? Lvl4 missions in empire. They give me much more isk/h than constantly respawning anomalies of dozens of jamming gurista hacs..


No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.
Well gosh, finally we'll be able to match L4 high-sec empire income, and we only have to pay a couple bill a month, hope that the anomalies aren't being hogged by an alliance mate AND hope i don't get ganked the **** out of by the first random ganker that comes by or that single cloaked guy in local that may or may not be afk, rendering the entire solar system unusable! What a steal, you dumb piece of **** i hope they don't let your dumb ass anywhere near the game design dept.

Hey FYI CCP, when soundwave was in goonswarm he was regarded as literally the dumbest guy in the whole 5000 man alliance. Like literally, we had a list, and he was at nr1. The Dumbest Guy In Goonswarm. Think about that.

oh yeah and since there's a 5min timer i might as well just cram as much **** into thsi post as possible
[QUOTE=ardik]haha, this might be it. eve's NGE.

people were holding out for dominion, hoping it would change things up a bit for the better, but this thing is just universally bad. i dont even understand how any of these ideas could have sounded good.

the new sov system sounds overly-complex and contrived, the removal of moon sourced income will remove points of conflict, literally all the upgrades are actually worthless, not just rhetorically worthless, but literally not worth the money and the continued move towards probing is just stupid.[/QUOTE]

Zibu 81
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:28:00 - [585]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 07/11/2009 11:01:47
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

You don't make 0.0 financially inhabitable for thousands by adding extra officer spawns, you do it by providing a constant flow of content that makes a good amount of money,

This is correct.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

which is what the anomalies do


This is completely wrong.


Wanna know what a steady, reliable and good income stream is? Lvl4 missions in empire. They give me much more isk/h than constantly respawning anomalies of dozens of jamming gurista hacs..


No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


So just explain why would I want to bring my alt running lvl 4's in complete safety in empire out to 0.0, if I can only make simmilar amount of is, and it's only after 100 days of holding sov in that system, and putting in countless amount of isk into it?

If empire offers same ammount of isk as 0.0 there's no incentive to move out, and moon income isn't an incentive, as you can do it without sov...

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:29:00 - [586]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

CCP seeding R64 moons in providence?

I personally dont even have that much issues with the anomalies, considering belt ratting here in provi is crap. However lets start by dividing the sov costs by 5, and then repost the blog.


As I said, if the costs become an issue, they can always be looked at.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:29:00 - [587]
 

If you're not trolling you're seriously bringing the NGE to one of the most amazing MMO's ever made.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:30:00 - [588]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

CCP seeding R64 moons in providence?

I personally dont even have that much issues with the anomalies, considering belt ratting here in provi is crap. However lets start by dividing the sov costs by 5, and then repost the blog.


As I said, if the costs become an issue, they can always be looked at.


The costs are an issue, look at them.

Jadal McPieksu
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:30:00 - [589]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Solution to sov problems:

0.0 alliances need to start griefing the hell out of everyone who lives in empire space until they beg CCP to improve 0.0 enough that we go away. Then we'll see some worthwhile changes.




I'm agreeing with a goon... Shocked

Coordinated 0.0 alliance empire suicide jihad that will "enrich" the cereals of every L4 mission running carebear would probably raise some eyebrows. I mean, what else would we do? Little reason to shoot each other, little reason to hold space.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:32:00 - [590]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


They don't scale well. An indefinite number of people can all use an agent simultaneously.

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:33:00 - [591]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


so in order to earn the isk of a lvl 4 you need to pay 1 bill for a signpost ... and risk dying to roaming gangs etc

yep, we have a match: 1==2

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:34:00 - [592]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


The higher tier anomalies don't spawn a lot in Tribute and most of 0.0. Truesec is still low and Dominion will not change that, since we can't upgrade it..

By the way, a high risk activity in 0.0 space only matching risk-free missions in empire that don't require you to invest a billion monthly? You are aware that this doesn't sound good? Sad

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:35:00 - [593]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


we live in 0.0 the risk is alot higher than empire yet we need the higher tiered anomolies just to match them ?

shouldnt that be the otherway around ? why would i consider installing a flag then a hub, then going rating then installing upgrade 1 then doing more rating, then installing upgrade 2 then more, them more just to generate a comparable income :/ **** it i'll clone to empire and do a mission risk free instead.

what level of pirate magnet generates 3 constant anomolies in the improved system ?

pirae magnet level 1 generates 2 additional some systems have no anomolies in to begin with. while this does sound (on paper) to be sufficient and if it generates at minimum a consistant 2 anomolies i do see the isk generation working but er, um why the hell does it require so much input to get less than empire out :/

Khayman33
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:35:00 - [594]
 

Edited by: Khayman33 on 07/11/2009 11:39:26
Edited by: Khayman33 on 07/11/2009 11:38:27
Edited by: Khayman33 on 07/11/2009 11:37:18
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 07/11/2009 11:01:47
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

You don't make 0.0 financially inhabitable for thousands by adding extra officer spawns, you do it by providing a constant flow of content that makes a good amount of money,

This is correct.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

which is what the anomalies do


This is completely wrong.



Wanna know what a steady, reliable and good income stream is? Lvl4 missions in empire. They give me much more isk/h than constantly respawning anomalies of dozens of jamming gurista hacs..


No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


Can you stop making games track with your dev blog, we will all be grateful ...

Because if you expect that you do spill the beans ( wish you understand this sentence ), I think you're facing a big problem of communication about an expansion that should and will profoundly change life in 0.0, affecting thousands of players making your game so interresting for people inside and outside EvE.

Please give us more info about why Dominion will make people go from empire to 0.0, hoping to make better business.

Telmar12
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:37:00 - [595]
 

Edited by: Telmar12 on 07/11/2009 11:40:23
Edited by: Telmar12 on 07/11/2009 11:37:50
now i understand that this is a dev blog and things are subject to change.
with that said, I would really like the devs to hear me out.

I like that you guys are trying to open up space for more people, i like the upgradable space. but what i don't understand is why is it a flat fee?

why can't it be relatively cheap for an alliance to have 1 system (say 150 - 300 mill a month) but scale when you start owning more.

for example if an alliance wants a single system it costs 200 mill a month, if they want two systems it bumps it up to 500 per system and so forth and so forth. it would still limit large alliance from "hogging" all the space, but let the smaller alliances have a chance without being overwhelmed by 2 bill a month taxes.

for a medium sized, well established alliance affording the space isnt a big problem, its profit. those upgrades so far don't seem like "omg wtf pwn 10 mill BS spawns" kinda stuff. and for a medium alliance, 2 bill a month is basically 2 cap ships they could be making. so if they don't make more money than they already did before the "2 bill a month" tax, then its useless to have sov.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:39:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

CCP seeding R64 moons in providence?

I personally dont even have that much issues with the anomalies, considering belt ratting here in provi is crap. However lets start by dividing the sov costs by 5, and then repost the blog.


As I said, if the costs become an issue, they can always be looked at.


Once it goes live it'll be to late to look at. SOE was told that the NGE was a huge mistake. They pushed forward with it anyway the players be damned, please don't repeat their same mistake. Listen to all of us that it is to costly as you have outlined, no small or medium alliance can afford the costs as they'd need the flag, the upgrade hub, probably at least 2-3 Large POSs for refining, building etc.

This in no way lowers the cost of coming to 0.0, it increases the cost, and thus it will accomplish the opposite of your desire.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:39:00 - [597]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


The higher tier anomalies don't spawn a lot in Tribute and most of 0.0. Truesec is still low and Dominion will not change that, since we can't upgrade it..

By the way, a high risk activity in 0.0 space only matching risk-free missions in empire that don't require you to invest a billion monthly? You are aware that this doesn't sound good? Sad


he walked right into that one didn't he....

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:39:00 - [598]
 

Originally by: Telmar12
Edited by: Telmar12 on 07/11/2009 11:37:50
now i understand that this is a dev blog and things are subject to change.
with that said, I would really like the devs to hear me out.

I like that you guys are trying to open up space for more people, i like the upgradable space. but what i don't understand is why is it a flat fee?

why can't it be relatively cheap for an alliance to have 1 system (say 150 - 300 mill a month) but scale when you start owning more.

for example if an alliance wants a single system it costs 200 mill a month, if they want two systems it bumps it up to 500 per system and so forth and so forth. it would still limit large alliance from "hogging" all the space, but let the smaller alliances have a chance without being overwhelmed by 2 bill a month taxes.


Excellent point. And from what I understood from the fanfest keynotes and previous devblogs/posts this was the concept all along. This devblog doesn't mention this at all. I guess it was too hard to implement ?

Spring Wind
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:41:00 - [599]
 

Edited by: Spring Wind on 07/11/2009 11:43:28

whole new sustem of sov is fine.. but! new prices is not!!
1b per month only for claim, without any upgrades?! plus fuel for large POSes with jb/cynogens/cynojams.. you're just jokin, right? not funny at all.. Evil or Very Mad

Jadal McPieksu
Posted - 2009.11.07 11:41:00 - [600]
 

Originally by: Morphisat
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No, financially the higher tier anomalies pretty much match level 4s.


Then why go through the trouble of going to 0.0 ?


Seconded. I can do Level 4s in a super-pimped marauder pwnmobile with 0 chance of losing it. Why go to 0.0, use something cheaper/faster/less effective and risk getting popped by a drive-by gang? PvE ships are still useless at PvP and all "emergent" PvP action involving players doing PvE is always "point this guy and it is a free kill" grade.

Risk-Reward. Look it up. You already have a massive pile of empire-hugging carebears who do not like the risks of 0.0. You want to make sure everyone else who accepts the risk for (small) benefits bails out because 0.0 just got a huge upkeep tag added to it?


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