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Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:31:00 - [31]
 

You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you?

Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it.

A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready.

Stop whining Laughing

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:32:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 06/11/2009 22:34:03
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus

Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation.



On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system.

Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it?


DED plex money evades alliance taxes.

Originally by: Vivian Azure
You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you?

Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it.

A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready.

Stop whining Laughing


Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing.

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:33:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus

Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation.



On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system.

Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it?


You literally cannot count any loot obtained from any plex in the money gained. You want to try to audit people running plexes and force them to pay taxes on the loot they get? Yeah okay have fun with that impossible task. When it comes to plexes the only income you can count on the alliance seeing is ratting tax from bounties.

Originally by: Vivian Azure
You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you?

Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it.

A high-end like Dysprosium or Promethium will still be worth some ISK. Some people see it around 3 Billion per Month, so a single high-end pays for two systems with a cyno-jammer allready.

Stop whining Laughing


People are "whining" because these much vaunted changes are pretty lousy. Not that I'd expect an empire dweller like yourself to get it, of course.

Lumy
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:35:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system
I hope this means that new anomaly will spawn right after completion/despawn one of "guaranteed" anomalies. Right? C/D Please.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:36:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision?


Yea your estimate is much too low. You need to add your current fuel bill to the sov bill. Since you still need pos. Just name the expansion: Exodus to NPC space.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:36:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
*snip*

Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing.


Show me where CCP stated this...

...and yes I'm an alt.

Xiodus Acap
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Xiodus Acap on 06/11/2009 22:37:46
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus
Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month

CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 20+ bil isk a month

CCP, you can't really be serious.


How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision?


A large pos is something like 200mil a month for a large. Even assuming they have 2 pos for jump bridges and 1 for a cyno jammer that's still only 600mil a month.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [38]
 

Great stuff BUT!!!! HOLY CRAP EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked


You want more people out there, but a small alliance like us (just over 50 members at moment), HOW ON EARTH are we gonna get all that isk!? Shocked A single system will easy end up costing 50-75mill per day - THATS 2.25 BILLION per month! (btw, thats 10 deathstarts worth of fuel in sov 1, not 5) to compare: 50 members at 10% tax generates about 150-200 mill isk on a good month!

And then there's the ''Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) '' 500 MILLION is not a SMALL AMOUNT!

Our alliance had been really looking forward to Dominion, however there's NO WAY we can suddenly generate an additional 2 billion isk. All of us are very dissapointed because of this.

couldn't you make the first system cost say a fraction of that and second sys jump up to that level so that alliances like us can actually join in on it?


Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/11/2009 22:38:22
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance

DED plex money evades alliance taxes.



I know it. As an owner of space its your problem to tax it somehow for use (renter system) or just deny others people plexing in station system. Point is - the upgrade gives enough ISK to cover costs, you just have to take it somehow.

Quote:
You literally cannot count any loot obtained from any plex in the money gained. You want to try to audit people running plexes and force them to pay taxes on the loot they get? Yeah okay have fun with that impossible task. When it comes to plexes the only income you can count on the alliance seeing is ratting tax from bounties.


Impossible by your standards? Maybe learn from MM how to farm plexes and deny others from doing it (cosmos radar - which is more random than sure plex in one system).

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:37:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
*snip*

Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing.


Show me where CCP stated this...

...and yes I'm an alt.


every time they talked about it that's the whole point of the upgrades

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:38:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 06/11/2009 22:42:42
Originally by: Vivian Azure
You people do not understand what Dominion is all about, do you?

Dominion is not ment to generate more ISK in your space, but to destroy tons of ISK holding on to it.


Actually, if you bothered to read the earlier devblogs on the subject, it's supposed to be pumping up the value of individual systems to the point where a non-hueg alliance could realistically support themselves through either their own activities or tenants on a handful of systems. A big part of this would be incentivising 0.0 enough to pull people out of empire space.

Too bad the upgrades that were supposed to make this happen are all worthless save the plexing upgrade (until deadspace loot prices tank) and possibly the WH upgrade.

{edit}@ Vivian:
Alluded to in:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=703
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=695
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=691

Dev posts elsewhere are a bit more precise on the matter{/edit}

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:38:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: mynnna on 06/11/2009 22:41:52
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
*snip*

Dominion was explicitly intended to allow you to make more money as an average player in 0.0 and currently it is failing.


Show me where CCP stated this...

...and yes I'm an alt.


I'd have to go dig sources, but their whole idea was to boost personal income while reducing the emphasis on alliance income; hence, nerf moon income and boost ratting/mining/etc, while simultaneously forcing people to use less space.

These upgrades don't really accomplish that.

<E> As it stands right now you get maybe 4-5 anomalies per system. Add to that ten anomalies from a maxed out upgrade and assume the ideal where they respawn instantly. Each anomaly is really only good for one person. Grats your system can support fifteen ratters, plus one or two more in the normal belts. Mining isn't worth the time so we can count that out, mini profession sites aren't worth the time, they're out. Wormholes are debatable, and DED plexes only allow a few more people to make money there. Its a far cry from 50-100 per system.

Equinox Daedalus
Caldari
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:41:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus

Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation.



On average 1 exploration/DED site nets 100mil isk (might be a bit more, im using very low value of TIERs alone + low faction stuff drops). Times 30 days = 3bil/month (again: very low values). And now think if you hit 10/10 once per week (and its possible) you can get 0,33% chance of 2+bil isk. With 4 weeks a month you get 4x 33% chance of phat loot which will cover the system.

Result? USE goddamn system. If you USE it and FARM it - you can get ISK which can partially pay for system and rest goes to your wallet. If you dont use system - why do you even bother keeping/upgrading it?




Well we do use the systems. Providence is problaly the most population density area of 0.0 in eve. Ask everyone who comes around to pvp here. CVA runs a NRDS polcy inviting everyone into thier space, to run plexes, mine, live, explore 0.0. Indeed many alliances got thier 1st taste of 0.0 via Providence and the deliverance mission. We build outpost after outpost up, because, well thats what ccp said/told us we needed to do.

Your statment hinges on the fact that inorder to pay for the space we have, we basically have to abandon EVERYTHING we believe in , shut out all neutrals, force payment from individual corps and its members to TAX them to death. CVA are not any pinko commies (no offense to any). We don't force people to pay for things, we dont' expand past our own ability to defend our areas, we don't ask anything of anyone to come to cva space but simply to live wand fly with honor, yet, ccp want to destroy that which they are holding up as the "example" they are building this patch off.

I can't see how individual wealth runs /pays for any of this. Providence is probally the poorist region in regards to assets/items in the area, and yes, while plexes do exisit I'm not sure how individual wealth translates to alliance wealth.

Drave McClay
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:42:00 - [44]
 

This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are ****, everything but the 10/10 complex is ****.

I'll be taking my $30 a month elsewhere, you idiots are unforgivable.

el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:43:00 - [45]
 

Wow. Goonswarm tears aside, I have a serious question:
Originally by: devblog
The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space.

By "successful use", is this governed by module success or the quantity of goods retrieved? Obviously, being governed by the latter - effectively chance-based - is a horrible idea.

Cheers on the changes, CCP.

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:44:00 - [46]
 

CCP missed the essence of what Dominion was supposed to be.

Just to be perfectly clear Morsus Mihi anticipated something like this ages ago, and as holding the most ****tiest region in New Eden we can finally make something from it, but I dont see a one single incentive for smaller entities (corps/alliances) to hold sov, cause it will be bloody expensive for them.

Macrominers and macroratters will flourish. Now I totally understand why UaxDeath was happy as puppy when he read the devblog.

Only good thing I see is for smaller "pvp" entities who are living in NPC stations. They will have awesome amount of bots to shoot.


Chalrynn Illyndar
Navy of Xoc
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:44:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: adriaans
Great stuff BUT!!!! HOLY CRAP EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked


You want more people out there, but a small alliance like us (just over 50 members at moment), HOW ON EARTH are we gonna get all that isk!? Shocked A single system will easy end up costing 50-75mill per day - THATS 2.25 BILLION per month! (btw, thats 10 deathstarts worth of fuel in sov 1, not 5) to compare: 50 members at 10% tax generates about 150-200 mill isk on a good month!

And then there's the ''Resource upgrades cost a relatively small amount of ISK (we are looking at a range of 50-500 million ISK) '' 500 MILLION is not a SMALL AMOUNT!

Our alliance had been really looking forward to Dominion, however there's NO WAY we can suddenly generate an additional 2 billion isk. All of us are very dissapointed because of this.

couldn't you make the first system cost say a fraction of that and second sys jump up to that level so that alliances like us can actually join in on it?




Also throw in the fact that it's not just a walk in the park out their either. Ontop of the 2+billion a month for ONE SINGLE SYSTEM they'll have to deal with roaming gangs and all those fun politics that come with 0.0, not to mention the carrier/dreads needed to defend said space, the people to fly them... etc. This is not even remotely within the reach of smaller alliances for even a single system, and a lot of people just aren't interested in having to form 500+ strong alliances and it looks like that's basically what will be needed to have a couple systems.

Quesa
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:45:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Quesa on 06/11/2009 22:57:11
Nothing I have seen so far has even come close to SUGGESTING we will be able to find activity for even 50 people for more than an hour in a single, fully upgraded system.

1 person can clear 4 anoms in an hour.

2 people can clear a DED 7-9/10 plex in an hour.

Mining is **** until you fix Grav sites and give us a reason to actually mine VELD.

All I've seen are enough activities to keep 20-30 people busy for 3-4 hours.

I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:46:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 06/11/2009 22:47:57
Originally by: el caido
Wow. Goonswarm tears aside, I have a serious question:
Originally by: devblog
The industrial index is based upon two activities taking place within your solar system. These are mining and mini-professions are based around the volume of ore mined and the successful use of hacking or archaeology modules within your space.

By "successful use", is this governed by module success or the quantity of goods retrieved? Obviously, being governed by the latter - effectively chance-based - is a horrible idea.

Cheers on the changes, CCP.


Id guess it means the 1st one. Which is easily farmable then. Just leave t1 frig with analyzer/codebraker in complex and put heavy book on F1 key = codebreaker. Can gets open, after 2-3 minutes it closes itself when stuck F1 kicks in and opens it again. Tho it doesnt matter - radars/magnetos are **** anyways. Those 2 lol-anomalies will give more isk than perma radar-site in your system.

As for plex values. Sansha/blood/angel plexes are still quite decent. Serps - i dunno (sorry). Guristas are getting worthless now (yay farmers, but thx for cheap b-type mods). Drone region dudes should cry now. Who cares about "higher chance of drone plex" lol.

Quote:
I'm begging you to explain how you even came CLOSE to the number of 100-150 being able to keep themselves busy in a single upgraded system. I'm not trolling, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to explain to us how this is even remotely possible.


Funny but i agree with this. The upgrades shown will barely occupy 5-10 people (thats excluding normal belts in system).

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:47:00 - [50]
 

I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting. Giving us more roids of the same type doesn't matter if no one is mining the ones we already have anyway. Sure there are a couple of peoples with bots who run 5 hulks at the same time but thats .1% of the eve 0.0 population.

Also how do you expect any alliance without r64s to hold more then one system? OR expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing?

Equinox Daedalus
Caldari
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:49:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:51:37
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus
Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month

CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month

CCP, you can't really be serious.


How much do you pay in POS fuel currently in comparision?



Tlos as a corp runs aproxx 30-40 pos's 4 jb (which wouldnt' come down, 1 cyno jammer (which wouldnt' come down), and the rest are large reaction pos's which pay for the jb pos's, cyno jammer pos's. reaction pos with alot of offline armorment incase of attack. We do not control any main entrances into provi/ so we don't run aren't forced to run pos's of full deathstar magnatude, so we really wouldn't save any isk.

Infact due to this patch we will see an INCREASE in pos fuel usage due to the sovernty changes.

Also due to the INCREASE in spawns of high end plexes I can't see anything but the decrease of high end module prices.

Mr McAlt
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Drave McClay
This is utter garbage. This is not an improvement AT ALL. What incentive does anyone have owning space? Why not just live in NPC space. You increase the costs of EVERYTHING, and the other side of the equation (better systems via better ratting, mining, etc) is unchanged? Anomalies are ****, everything but the 10/10 complex is ****..


The point is that it is more difficult to own too much space, giving smaller entities a chance to move into the space the big alliances are going to have to leave. It is more expensive to run a system than before, but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.

Quote:
I'll be taking my $30 a month elsewhere, you idiots are unforgivable.


Can I haz your stuff? Very Happy

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:50:00 - [53]
 

... and I THOUGHT 0.0 sucked

Laughing

Johraiken Fenris
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:51:00 - [54]
 

1-2Bn isk / month / system.

This is way too expensive for many smaller alliances. Especially as it comes in addition to the POS fuel. A lot of towers now have some moon mining on it, how crappy it may be, but it helps with the fuel bill. You can remove the deathstars, but the are less of those than you think.

And how do you get the ISK back as an alliance/corporation? Vast majority will disappear in personal wallets. If you rake up the tax (and you can only tax your own people), players will just go missioning in empire.

So, where is the upgrade that gives 10% of all bounties paid to pod pilots in this system to the sov-holding corp? But how can you tax mining and hacking/archeology?

CynoNet Two
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:51:00 - [55]
 

This is hilarious. After years of trying to encourage players to move to 0.0, you just slapped a huge tax on it and made it virtually unprofitable.

Most of the upgrades mentioned derive their income from means that cannot be directly taxed or monitored. This means alliances will be forced to use convoluted out-of-game rental schemes until Treaties, which we probably won't see until the middle of next year at the soonest.

Owning 0.0 space is now far less attractive than before. Not only is it actually less profitable than high-sec mission running, but you've managed to make it more dangerous by trying to concentrate everyone making money into smaller, easily ganked pockets. Instead of improving conq space, you have taken what's already there and just increased it so more people can do it in the same area. Unless the average isk/hour per player rate rises as these systems are upgraded, conq space is worth no more than NPC 0.0 or even lowsec. Hell, its worth less because of the huge bills needed to hold it.

1) Make sov costs scale with sov claimed as originally promised. This provides easy entry for smaller groups while limiting larger ones. For example, claiming a single system with an alliance is 100m per month. Claiming two systems is 102m per system (204m total).

2) Increase the average isk/hour ratio earned by people living in conq space. Higher value rats, not more of them. Higher yield ores so that people can manage local industry, rather than still require bulk compressed imports from empire. Add scaling NPC buy orders for complex drops to player owned outposts, with tax income going to the owning corporation.

3) The expense of logistics routes is going to mean small and medium alliances are reduced to single easily ganked routes without alternative. Instead have upgrade costs scale the more upgrades are installed. This means that operating a jump bridge upgrade on a simple linking system will cost less than putting a bridge upgrade on a cynojammed system with CSAAs to defend.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:52:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Mr McAlt

but the amount of isk you can make will increase much, much more.


no, it wont.

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [57]
 

Is the point of this Exodus pt2 expansion to return eve to pre-Exodus state?

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [58]
 

this devblog is really reassuring -- it sets to rest any claims of developer bias towards one alliance or another because clearly not one of the developers actually plays eve online

oh boy an extra hidden asteroid belt per level it'll sure be worth upgrading that so everyone gets a whole new entry to ignore on their system scanner

Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [59]
 

I'll be happy to finally automate my many bills *\o/*

by many i mean like 6 Embarassed

im a lazy, lazy man Confused

iP0D
Posted - 2009.11.06 22:53:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin
Actually, if you bothered to read the earlier devblogs on the subject, it's supposed to be pumping up the value of individual systems to the point where a non-hueg alliance could realistically support themselves through either their own activities or tenants on a handful of systems. A big part of this would be incentivising 0.0 enough to pull people out of empire space.

Too bad the upgrades that were supposed to make this happen are all worthless save the plexing upgrade (until deadspace loot prices tank) and possibly the WH upgrade.


I was kinda looking forward to farming the poor sods who were actually going to try and grab a bit of 0.0 when the big blocks compress themselves, since the idea was to repopulate space based on a reward model that could compete with the easy afk empire syndrome on alts. I guess that is out of the window now, if not because they won't move to try, but because the ones that do are going to get farmed to death for nice griefing cloaking gank farming kills.


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