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Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:44:00 - [451]
 

And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4)

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:45:00 - [452]
 

I'm calming down and thinking back to my industrial corp roots when siphoning the maximum amount of ISK out of a 0.0 Constellation was what 500 players simply did.

Shortages of midrange minerals, trying to guilt people into mining plagioclase effectively for free, Jump Freighters of megacyte and zydrine moving to Empire to sell. Make rent, fly naked battleships under noses of some of the best PVP pilots in EVE to sell at par to keep friends friendly.

Ah, sweet ulcer, it's all coming back to me now.

Okay, I can see an Industrial Corp paying for SOV, I can see them paying rent to a nearby PVP alliance for protection and/or the right to exist and I can see them paying for war fleet production (Caps and general PVP ships) to achieve general independance and to keep from being kicked around.

I just can't see more then three of those at once, so we're kind of right back where we were before.

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:45:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: Stevens
And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4)


At this point getting no patch would be better then this, I dearly hope they delay it.

Marina Charnatie
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:46:00 - [454]
 

To everyone posting. CCP is not the devil. They are not monsters out to ruin your fun. They really care about this game too. For whatever reason, there's a serious breakdown in achieving the stated goals and actual process. Lets, as some have already done, suggest strong options for them to use.

CCP, please don't put this in as it is. Really, it is going to push more people apart rather than together.

Bilbo II
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:52:00 - [455]
 

This expansion will sure let the little guy into 0.0 because all the big alliances can shrink the amount of space they need.

Well that was the plan anyhow but the reality is that....
1.Our costs just went way way up.
2.Only the jammer/gen/jb upgrade is worth anything (lol 10 extra worthless anomolies, yeah I'll be sure to get all 5 levels of that)
3.Having sov produces 0 benifits over not having sov excepts for jammed or jb systems.
4. Moon goo nerfed so income must come from members forcing them to carebear more than now.

Total result is we now need even MORE space than we held before. We won't sov it because there is no point but the little guy sure a hell is not gonna be allowed to live there.

Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:52:00 - [456]
 

Originally by: Korodan
Originally by: Stevens
And before anyone gets their hopes on this getting fixed lets not forget the code freeze. That happens 2 or 3 weeks before patch hits. So that gives CCP 11 (or 4 lol) days that they can make changes before the patch gets locked and that is what gets sent live. Does anyone believe CCP can fix this in even 11 days (let alone 4)


At this point getting no patch would be better then this, I dearly hope they delay it.


They didn't delay for boot.ini

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:55:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: Marina Charnatie
To everyone posting. CCP is not the devil. They are not monsters out to ruin your fun.
i dont think anyone here is suggesting ccp are monsters

theyre just totally ignorant about how their own game works, both mechanically and functionally

Selnix
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:58:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


You Sir, deserve some sort of award for the best troll post of the entire thread. Apparently by stating that the goal of funding a Sov system with upgrades is easily attainable you somehow got people believing that the argument here is the cost.

The cost of the upgrades and sov is irrelevant. The argument here is that these upgrades, and even sov itself, are quite worthless under the system that is being implemented in the majority of 0.0 space. Dominion was heralded as the chariot that would whisk the little empire bears out into the riches of 0.0 where they could thrive in little cave-like pockets and provide a new target-rich environment for those of us that would rather shoot ships that have some chance of doing something unpredictable instead of a bunch of bots that do the same thing all day every day. Nothing about this expansion as it has been outlined thus far does this. You might ask, "Are there going to be more systems without sov that they can dig in and try to live in?" and the answer would obviously be a "Yes.". The problem is that there is nothing stopping these same people from doing that under the current system. An unused system now has no less benefit to a group looking to gain a foothold than it will after Sov is removed.

Any little corporation out there can move into 0.0 under the current game mechanics with practically the same ease as they would in Dominion because post-patch the only systems you can really expect to see Sov in are those with outposts and those that have jump bridges for logistics on the way to those outposts. If you get down to the essence of things, outposts are only useful to allow people to dock up and keep their ships/modules/etc relatively safe while also allowing for a market to exist. In all of the systems without outposts the new guys will be forced to live out of POS towers and no matter how you try to spin it, that is already more than doable. So it all boils down to for an upstart Alliance is either trying to take an outpost under what could very well end up being no easier circumstances than currently exist or attempting to do as they already can and organize their people into a life lived out of POS while trying to dodge that corp thief silver bullet.

There is really just no justification for upgrading a system that you do not need sov in either for giving some buffer of protection to your outpost or for protecting your jump bridge network. Any percieved gains from the increases that they can provide are completely nullified by the fact that the costs will consume more than you can expect to milk out of the system over what could already be earned there through normal activity. This is even more ludicrous in that there is an activity requirement for upgrades to become available but that same activity is beyond a waste of time without the upgrades. How can you expect the bears to mine endless hours to get their upgrades when they could make just as much mining in lowsec and without the monthly bill? CCP's expectations of cramming a hundred people into a system and having them use it for anything more than a place to dock up are laughable as the resources available through upgrading won't likely support 1/10th of that number at any given time in the average 0.0 system.

The other major flaw in the logic or lack thereof where your rather epic troll post is concerned is also a simple one. You give your argument as though the goal in 0.0 is to farm enough fund sov. For the vast majority of 0.0 residents the goal is to have fun and if having fun requires grinding a few hours for isk to buy ships to go lose in a shower of internet pixels, that is a necessary burden. Farming to enable us to grind isk is, for many of us, not the reason we subscribe to EVE.

-Sel

north south
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:59:00 - [459]
 

Wow, great to see some changes CCP, however i am a bit dissapointed scrolling trough 16 pages of text without reading ANY replies from your side.

First of all, congrats with knocking big alliances down to their knees to show them they need to be properly organised, but ehm... your bringing in a pritty big problem here, and some unreadable lines.

The following i am not getting clear from your post: If an alliance occupies for example 30 systems and had 10 corporations in it. Does this mean the alliance has to get all 10 corps to pay the bill for every system out of these 30? Or does it mean that every corp picks 3 systems to maintain and pay the bills for that?

This does nake a huge diffrence in the billing system to sustain systems and stations. Paying 1 bil a day for corps is a bit much i would think, and not affordable. But paying 120 mil isk a day for 3 upgraded systems might be something most corps can actualy afford to do, if their alliance can hold 30 systems then.

So how will this work exactly, since your not stating that clearly in your post?

Aquinzus
Amarr
Modern Marvels
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:02:00 - [460]
 

Those numbers are ******ed.

No one can claim space for 2+ Billion a system per month to start off, there will be no point in claiming space, people will stay where they are and still claim what they have, there just wont be any Sov on the map.

This patch nerfed player space and boosted NPC Space.

I think all this patch did was kill Jump Bridges and Cyno Jammers since no Alliance in thier right mind would ever pay 2+ Billion a month to use one.


I said it before and I say it now, this patch hasnt cured anything, just taken SOV out of the equasion, you still have to shoot a "structure" to take a system, outpost instead of POS. Costs of holding Sov means no one will hold Sov anymore.

Eve has reverted back to when there was no Sov and you lived out of NPC stations or Towers.

Static Kinetics
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:03:00 - [461]
 

The Benefits of Resource Upgrades

Note the names for the upgrades are not final!

Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system

Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system

Entrapment - increase the chance significantly of a DED complex being located in the depths of your solar system

Survey Networks - increase the chance significantly of mini-profession sites being located within your solar system

Quantum Flux Generator - increase the chance significantly of a wormhole being discovered within your solar system to w-space.


please tell me that this is all under a "exploration upgrades" part of the tree and that there is more to come
otherwise id say this is bull**** and shows a serious lack of creativity.

Prometheus09
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:05:00 - [462]
 

I went to post a reply but it got very long. So I posted it on my blog instead at the The Captains Log.

Daniel Ogden
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:06:00 - [463]
 

Edited by: Daniel Ogden on 07/11/2009 08:09:49
CCP,

We don't PVP to secure ground for ratting, plexing and otherwise grinding for ISK. We rat, plex and grind for ISK so that we can buy **** for PVP. Get it? Give us more lucrative rats so we can spend !*--->LESS<--*! time shooting NPCs and spend more time pew pewing. I was very excited for this patch. WAS being the operative word in that sentence. If I wanted to carebear more I'd go to empire.

EDIT: How long have you been working on this anyhow? I would think a drunken night at the office by the result. Hard to believe this is what all the hubub was about. Pirate magnets FTL. This is lame.

Kushmir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:06:00 - [464]
 

Ultimately there is only 1 way to make null-sec worthwhile and that is to nerf highsec. Most people playing this game are almost exclusively in highsec. CCP has no real reason to want to **** off a crapload of carebears.

Priestess Broadchest
Amarr
TEMPLAR.
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:07:00 - [465]
 

Its been a while since CCP buffoonery upset so many players, will they reply ? do they even care ?

Gtab
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:09:00 - [466]
 

Seriously, CCP? This is what you think "listening to 0.0 Alliance CSMs" should look like?


Kim' Possible
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:10:00 - [467]
 

A few things:

1.)I applaud CCP for recognizing the sov system flaws and fixing them
2.)I hate CCP for half-assing it and rushing to finish it

Bobby Atlas is right, on every account. Nobody is going to say that they aren't going to fight and work for their space, but these changes are overboard. Not to mention every small alliance, space-holding or not, is strung out to dry.

CCP had a great idea, and created a nice infrastructure of hubs and flags to enact the new system. Then, they rushed to think of a payment and deployment system and in effect, ruined it. They made a deadline for deployment before they knew what was involved, and are now stuck with a failing system. The "upgrades" are not thought through, the pricing is un-realistic, and everyone is going to suffer because of it.

I like the ideas of Fleet Finder, the Automatic Payments, etc. are great ideas. Implement those in a patch. But hold off on Dominion for another 6 months or something, give yourselves some real time to think of a good system for payment, expansion, upgrading, find the code to do it all properly, and reasonable time to test and get feedback. I wouldn't mind waiting another 6months or so to get a final revision that actually works instead of this crap. You didn't give yourselves enough time, and this is the end result. Nobody likes it, for good reason. I'm sure the rest of the community agrees with me.

ian666
Minmatar
Virtual Democracy
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:11:00 - [468]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
if you think hidden belts were generating isk. Nobody bothers with them.

Well this is a problem of thoose 'nobody' who doesnt want to use it, its their choice. If someone have enought money, then he just doesnt need to use it.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:11:00 - [469]
 

Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 07/11/2009 08:13:46
These changes are some of the most **** changes I have seen. You're going to make 0.0 cost MORE to live in and give us marginally more in return through avenues that are a very finite resource to begin with. Unless you massively up the amount of plexes they can all be run within a few hours of downtime.


Why not upgrade **** that isn't finite? Like rats, agents, the long forgotten planetary spawns etc? Let us improve truesec, let us HIRE AGENTS TO SIT IN SPACE OR AT OUR STATIONS OF THE FACTION WE CHOOSE.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:13:00 - [470]
 

hummmmm

i don't see alliances "claiming" less space. not officially anyways; we'll keep owning the station systems and done. *shrug*

we'll develop null-sec less 'cause hey... we won't be building any more stations any time soon with these "permanent" costs.

we'll have to pay more for industrial POSes: less savings in "distant" systems and ofc the highly increased necessity to run
reactions to cover for these new sinks. any alliance here not (primarily) using moon goo to cover for alliance costs, raise hands please.

combine this with the T2 ingredient reshuffle and we're looking at big alliances producing even the ****tiest crap: carbides. i don't see anything left for young aspiring entities. nothing to pay 900mil/month sov+hub and 200mil for at least one hub-defending deathstar - unless they tax their members. might aswell join a renters' alliance.

makes me wonder how soon we'll crave for the days when big alliances were only interested in dysp+prom [and fought over it] and left all the other stuff to renters. alchemy could have been a clue with the meanies suddenly taking interest in cadmium and chromium. so yes, this moon goo reevaluation was probably the biggest slap in the face for newcomers [and where is the devblog&comment-thread about that btw].

but yeah, i don't see much of a return for the investment. and the jump bridge part is just evil for the outer playerbase. couldn't hurt to double the jump range; would coincide with rorquals/dreads/JFs with JDC IV - they won't be going through bridges anymore, right? this could make them use the cyno-arrays then.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:17:00 - [471]
 

A quick review of this thread shows that the vast majority of people in 0.0 alliances and not alt posting do *not* support these changes as they stand.

Yes sov should be changed, I think this system has some good ideas but I think it needs more work.

Hratli Smirks
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:17:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: ian666
Originally by: Batolemaeus
if you think hidden belts were generating isk. Nobody bothers with them.

Well this is a problem of thoose 'nobody' who doesnt want to use it, its their choice. If someone have enought money, then he just doesnt need to use it.



Nobody does them because they aren't profitable. If they aren't profitable now, and they aren't being improved in quality, they will continue to be unprofitable and unused so long as there exists any better alternative option, like ratting and level 4 missions. Belts are a finite resource, but missions aren't.


ian666
Minmatar
Virtual Democracy
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:27:00 - [473]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 07/11/2009 08:13:46
These changes are some of the most **** changes I have seen.


We have 250 titans in game, those ships needed tons of minerals to build, each of them have worth around 80b isk. This is more than enought to upgrade entire constelations at max and mantain it for years.

This patch will reduce amount of new Titans in future since alliances will need more money to mantain their systems not to create more spares for each titan pilot, and that is one of best changes since Red Moon Rising.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:27:00 - [474]
 

They need to rename this expansion to Eve Online:New Game Enhancement

John 11111
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:27:00 - [475]
 

DOMINION, they may not be able to fix it in 4 days, but they don't have to employ it. making that kind of isk really isn't able to be accomplished in 0.0 anyway, due to cloak grieving, so to add more cost on to it is just an insult. I'm packing up now and moving out of 0.0 expecting the worst, hopefully I'm wasting my time, but the way the game is being structured it don't look like it. I have canceled all my accounts(6) in preparation, because I play the game for fun(pvp), not work. I've made a lot of friends in Eve, and I'll be sorry to be gone. I blame CCP for this, for i don't like high sec, and it seems that is where they want everyone to be. I'll be happy to come back if they choose to fix the problems, but unfortunately they don't seem to care about what the customers want.

John 11111

Korodan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:28:00 - [476]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
They need to rename this expansion to Eve Online:New Game Enhancement


Please rename the NOL system to "Theed" tia.

Professor Dumbledore
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:30:00 - [477]
 

Edited by: Professor Dumbledore on 07/11/2009 08:30:30
You guys are ****ing broken in the heads if you think this will work and people will want to pay these ridiculous rates for 0.0 space after you nerf the **** out of 0.0 income people will move to npc 0.0 because its more profitable. You guys are just so dumb it hurts.

This new system will fail so hard you will drive people out of 0.0 i hope your happy.

If you dont want to kill off your entire player base and **** over you entire game you should stop this now undo this stupid **** and come up with a system that will work.

L'aeolan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:34:00 - [478]
 

Edited by: L''aeolan on 07/11/2009 08:36:02
Originally by: Panzram
problem: people aren't eating this plate full of poop

solution: a bigger plate of more expensive poop


Even if you cut the costs, the upgrades are terrible. This is a bad expansion.

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:36:00 - [479]
 

Edited by: Fuujin on 07/11/2009 10:08:50
Originally by: ian666
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 07/11/2009 08:13:46
These changes are some of the most **** changes I have seen.


We have 250 titans in game, those ships needed tons of minerals to build, each of them have worth around 80b isk. This is more than enought to upgrade entire constelations at max and mantain it for years.

This patch will reduce amount of new Titans in future since alliances will need more money to mantain their systems not to create more spares for each titan pilot, and that is one of best changes since Red Moon Rising.



So were you born ******ed or were you the beneficiary of a ball-peen hammer to the cranial region?

A single titan costs about 50-60B. Only if you fully officer fit it can you approach the 80B figure. So a 60B ship will support about 20 systems....for one month. Yes the cost for only sov and upgrades is 2B, but you have to tack on POS fuel for the towers that are still needed to support the jammers and jump bridges and FLAG protection.

But since you brought up titans, lets reflect on the line of (lack of ) thought CCP had when they made them: they actually believed that there might be one or two in the game TOTAL. Clearly, they have a great handle on player logistics.

Also: Laughing at the guy trying to educate Zastrow on logistics.

edit: apparently the stupid is contagious. :P

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 08:39:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: Hratli Smirks
so long as there exists any better alternative option, like level 4 missions. Belts are a finite resource, but missions aren't.




yep lvl 4 missions are the holy grail of isk/hr comparison.

lets nerf the **** out of em in high sec, its been years in the coming.

i would celebrate the day lvl 4 agents in high sec generate a fixed amount of missions which are replenished hourly. say 100 missions /hr or less. watch motsu and other major hubs flat-line when the hundreds of ravens/cnrs/golems have MAYBE 1 mission / hr available.

make it 200 /hr for lowsec and 1000/hr for nullsec (due to hardly any stations with agents. numbers are negotiable for low and null sec but High sec has so goddamn many lvl 4 agents that 100/hr is acceptable in my opinion.

IF CCP would crank down the isk fountain that is endless high sec level 4 mission spam then they could afford to be more lenient in the isk sinks. as it stands with dominion null sec alliances will be paying for the excesses of the high sec mission grinders and i mean that LITERALLY. they bring in billions of isk into the game in bounties and mission rewards and YOU will be paying billions of isk to compensate.


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