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Cyriel Longinus
Caldari
XERCORE
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:48:00 - [421]
 

I am dissappointed.

ian666
Minmatar
Virtual Democracy
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:50:00 - [422]
 

Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:52:38
Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: ian666
Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:38:50
Great changes, prices are good.

One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters. Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things.


Let's be honest here. Are you planning on living in 0.0 after reading this dev blog? If so, why? If not, why not?


Yes i am, live in 0.0 will be moar interesting and challenging than is now. Many good 'old fashion' activites died in every of few last minor patches, because of jump bridges, jump freighters, wormholes (fast traveling), cyno jammers, cyno generators and other stuff that make this game quite simple, easy, and soloable.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:51:00 - [423]
 

Originally by: ian666
Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:43:09

Great changes, prices are good.

One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters (besides we have enought wormholes 0.0 <=> hisec). Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things.




just what everyone wants to do is grind more stupid **** to keep sov.

Magnum III
Journey On Squad
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:54:00 - [424]
 

Edited by: Magnum III on 07/11/2009 06:56:55

Who gets the money paid? how is that, I thought 0.0 nul sec was unowned space.

Are they going to be paying their 14 day bills to concord or something?

I mean it sound like they are paying the God of Nul sec to have there systems upgraded, it make no sense.

it sounds like someone wants to make up rules all willy nilly for nul sec.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:54:00 - [425]
 

The only thing that ****ing over jump bridges does is penalize the new players in 0.0 that don't have capitals for logistics. Yay Seleene

pi squad
Scalding Pie Services
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:58:00 - [426]
 

lmao these are ****ing horrible you guys are literally clueless

Opiboble Inte
Hard Rock Mining Co.
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 06:59:00 - [427]
 

Ok CCP you just made it cheaper for big alliances to run, and tougher for starter alliances to get in.

Need to implement a scaled cost and slash the current prices in half.
So for every system you control your cost goes up by a multiplier:

1 system = 1x base
2 = 1.25x
3 = 1.50x
4 = 1.75x
5 = 2.00x
6 = 2.25x
and so on...

so at having 5 systems it would cost you 100mill a day or 1.4bill a fortnight. (with no upgrades)That makes it easier for start alliances to get out there, and wakes up the bigger alliances that more space isn't better.

Just tossing it out there, cuss that cost system is NOT going to encourage smaller alliances to go out to 0.0 space/

Alice Teal
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:02:00 - [428]
 

EVEO Community: Hey CCP POS warfare is teh suck we want more fun.

CCP: Hai GAIS!!!! Farm anomalies to keep SOV!!!!! Kthxbai!!!!

Max Stront
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:04:00 - [429]
 

Is this like they do in politics where they call something the opposite of what it really does?

Dominion is the "0.0 Sov Freedom and Proliferation Act" but it neither frees SOV nor proliferates alliances in 0.0.

Did you guys hire a political firm to come up with this?

Opiboble Inte
Hard Rock Mining Co.
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:05:00 - [430]
 

Originally by: Magnum III
Edited by: Magnum III on 07/11/2009 06:56:55

Who gets the money paid? how is that, I thought 0.0 nul sec was unowned space.

Are they going to be paying their 14 day bills to concord or something?

I mean it sound like they are paying the God of Nul sec to have there systems upgraded, it make no sense.

it sounds like someone wants to make up rules all willy nilly for nul sec.


agree! Makes since if you where fueling it, know it is just kinda a money sink hole... get ready for the ice market to crash big time.

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:06:00 - [431]
 

Originally by: ian666
Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:52:38
Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: ian666
Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 06:38:50
Great changes, prices are good.

One last thing CCP - block usage of Jump Bridges by Freighters and Jump Freighters. Bring back good old player convoys and force people to do something else than solo killing rats 24/7. Make them move their own stuff by themselves more frequently - transport ships + jump bridges for better speed or freighter convoy's for corp things.


Let's be honest here. Are you planning on living in 0.0 after reading this dev blog? If so, why? If not, why not?


Yes i am, live in 0.0 will be moar interesting and challenging than is now. Many good 'old fashion' activites died in every of few last minor patches, because of jump bridges, jump freighters, wormholes (fast traveling), cyno jammers, cyno generators and other stuff that make this game quite simple, easy, and soloable.


care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right?

I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered

Dream Hunter
Morne Attitude
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:07:00 - [432]
 

"Ore Prospecting Array - adds one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level to your solar system"

Are the hidden asteroid sites going to be massive roids like the wormhole systems or are they going to be like the tiny baby roids found at the current gav sites?

Maeve Kell
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:09:00 - [433]
 

Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Oh, also, all these upgrades besides the pirate magnet and ore prospecting array (which unless fixed will be unused) evade alliance taxes so you can't replace the lost r64 income.


There are Alliances living without r64..

but yes.. the upgrades are useless.. better rats, more faction spawns, better moons, more belts etc is what we need :/

Inferno Styx
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:10:00 - [434]
 

personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future.

On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's.

Nicolas Nye
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:10:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Zastrow

care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right?

I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered


I can provide you too with empire standings for the mere price of 400mil thanks to my high sec connections. Please wire isk to Nicolas Nye in game, 15mil extra if you want me to jump your stuff out to Jita. You will be able to frolic joyfully in carebear land without any worries about maintaining sov or the like.

I provide my sercives so as to make enjoyable EVE a game for everyone boy or girl.

Xantor Bludberry
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:11:00 - [436]
 

First CCP close the offline skill training. We became obligated to monthly pay our accounts.
Now CCP remove ďoffline alliancesĒ and introduces the system, with which we will be are obligated to hanting/mining/exploring solar systems. Otherwise, "then the activity indices may decay to the point" the level of system will fall down.
It does follow us to await the following step? When we be obliged to fly, to shoot, to associate with the agents, to trade, to build, otherwise our corresponding skills will be reduced from 5 to 0, and we will lose skillpoins.

Everything to that does go?

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:13:00 - [437]
 

i wonder if anyone from ccp ever dares to set their foot into this sharkbasin now xD

Prof Fail
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:13:00 - [438]
 

Postphone the Sov changes, they are terrible. Far to expensive, no rewards. It also gives us nothing to fight for. No moons, no space... Why somebody shpuld start an epic crusade to conquer all of eve if you cannot even pay the bill for 10 systems. Another source of epic fights were r64 moons, which get nerfed. Where is the pvp content?

All will be busy carebearing to pay this stupid ally-bills and to maintain the upgrades.


The upcoming changes for the capital battlefield (no dd, supercarrier, dreadchanges) will soften up the structure of eve by alot. Thats enough to justify an expansion named Dominion. It will be a source of epic fights. Without DD everything will change.
But pls postphone those sovchanges. Your concept is terrible. Let the Sov-System as it is for now. Its really great compared to this new stuff.

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:14:00 - [439]
 

Originally by: Inferno Styx
personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future.

On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's.



most alliances alrady have industrial wings, they're just based in highsec because 0.0 production takes a lot more effort (another point in the 0.0 cost/benefit argument)

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:17:00 - [440]
 

Edited by: teji on 07/11/2009 07:18:25
Originally by: Inferno Styx
personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future.


Why would they get the "pimped" systems when all the pimping does is increase the rate that it produces ****ty resources that aren't worth running. Oh and it massively increases your monthly cost of simply existing in 0.0.

Quote:
On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective.


No, if you wanted to "grind" you would be in 0.0 right now. The fact that you aren't and people aren't is that they prefer the safety of concord. You have no ****ing clue what people are willing to do for some sort of payout.

Quote:
Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's.


You honestly think that any 0.0 alliance doesn't currently have hundreds of players already producing ships cheaply for the alliances? The outer edges are buffer zones to protect your central core. Why let potential enemies there and risk everything? Holy **** you are dumb.

ian666
Minmatar
Virtual Democracy
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:21:00 - [441]
 

Edited by: ian666 on 07/11/2009 07:26:14
Originally by: Zastrow
care to list some of these activities? the only possible thing I can infer from your post is ****ing with someone's tower fueling, something that dominion's isk payment system was intended to reduce. Yet, you just said these were great changes so that couldn't possibly be it, right?

I'm trying real hard here to coax a reasonable argument from ANYONE as to some good parts of this dev blog, but so far nobody has delivered

Upgrades which will give moar complexes, wormholes, hidden belts which will generate moar $$$, ofc if people in your corp will be fair with each other and with their own corp - scenario when corp/alliance ran out of cash when people ratting in faction/officer fitted nightmares or doing complexes in a private motherships is something that you should fix before it need to be fixed.

More rich systems will give you back money you have put in in first case, besides this will make eve bigger, give more space for others which is good since only small amount of players live in 0.0.

Alice Teal
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:22:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
...


I sense your frustration. Here's what happened.

CCP Devs: Hey we need upgrades to create new belts and higher-bounty rats FTW!

CCP Coders: Ummmm. No one has touched that stuff with a ten-foot pole since Beta. We don't even know where it is in the code. Besides, belts? Remember how dang long it took us to get that silly monument in Jita? Yeah.

CCP Devs: Well, ummm, we need something to make the space better...erm...

CCP Coders: What about all that exploration and WH stuff you had us do a few expansions ago?

CCP Devs: I don't think that will really cut it in this case.

CCP Coders: Sites and WH linked to upgrades? Message received.

FuriousPig
Amarr
IronPig
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:34:00 - [443]
 

The premise of Dominion seemed exciting at first. The thought of smaller Alliances swarming into 0.0, border movement, Territorial conflict & massive defence of home space re-invigorated my Eve passion.

Now all I have to worry about debt collectors.

The blog is laughably ill-conceived, the upgrades marginally short of pathetic & motivation for actually claiming space, absent.

A huge percentage of pilots moved to 0.0 because we had done our mission running & ratting & wanted something different. Its fine equating the bills to 15 Battleship spawns a day but thatís not why we are here. Furthermore do you seriously believe Alliances will pay billions upgrading their systems so that 100s of pilots can go chasing around looking for an extra 2 anomalies? Even if you added 2 per system within a constellation they would be gone before most people got home from work. Anyone remember Empire complexes?

Did CCP actually listen to what was asked of them? I believe the problem was that Alliances were too entrenched & smaller Alliances were unable to gain a foothold.

Boundaries were stagnant & sovereignty mechanics did indeed need a revamp but I donít think anyone appreciates being taxed out of claiming systems. What a tragic end to years of work from some of the older Alliances & a huge economic stumbling block for new ones.

The only incentive for small Alliances to come to 0.0 is to destroy; I doubt many can afford to settle.

Call me pessimistic but I envisage vast tracts of unclaimed, unoccupied, space, battles raging around single systems of high worth, a small steady exodus to Empire & the sub-mediocre grind of ratting - boring people out of the game.

The problem here is balance, feel free to charge exorbitant fees for systems but there needs to be mechanisms to recoup cost that does not involve mindless grind. Gate fees, Alliance wide taxes, POS taxes; anything but donít make us go ratting again!



P.S. Something that hasnít been mentioned but wonít POS fuel costs go up by 25% since there will be no discount for Constellation Sovereignty? Thatís another cost on top.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [444]
 

Originally by: ian666

Upgrades which will give moar complexes, wormholes, hidden belts which will generate moar $$$



No they won't. We can have the same amount of plexes and wormholes by just curmbstomping anyone within reach and using that space as farming ground with much less cost attached to it.

You clearly have no clue about what you're talking about if you think hidden belts were generating isk. Nobody bothers with them.

Bilbo II
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [445]
 

Originally by: Alice Teal
Originally by: Zastrow
...


I sense your frustration. Here's what happened.

CCP Devs: Hey we need upgrades to create new belts and higher-bounty rats FTW!

CCP Coders: Ummmm. No one has touched that stuff with a ten-foot pole since Beta. We don't even know where it is in the code. Besides, belts? Remember how dang long it took us to get that silly monument in Jita? Yeah.

CCP Devs: Well, ummm, we need something to make the space better...erm...

CCP Coders: What about all that exploration and WH stuff you had us do a few expansions ago?

CCP Devs: I don't think that will really cut it in this case.

CCP Coders: Sites and WH linked to upgrades? Message received.


Sounds about right.

pc dude
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [446]
 

this expansion is naught but a boost to npc space. calling it here. we wont quit eve though, at least not until another pvp game comes out....or this one falls below the quality of pvp offered elsewhere =p

Jethro Hawkins
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:36:00 - [447]
 

I agree with most. These costs will limit Alliance "official" sov. They will still hold the same amount of space. Smaller corps will have no chance of setting a foothold because of the massive price tag.

For all those crunching numbers about certain people/corp/month grinding. My current corp pays our rent with bi-weekly ops... probably will have to set that alliance wide if prices stay as they are and DEMAND participation... and if a corp doesn't give enough isk, they'll be fined.


My corp will probably be moving from our 0.0 system after the patch. We are paying rent in drone region and this will be too much for us to setup/maintain, forget about the lack of bounties also. At least faction warfare will pick up... maybe I'll rejoin that.


Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:37:00 - [448]
 

Questions for CCP:
1. Is ratting being nerfed for existing 0.0 systems that remain un-upgraded so overflow of players can rat outside the upgraded system basically with current income? Do you envision some kind of scenario of having a fortress with Sov and space around it for ratting without Sov, so that Sov will be more like islands or a castle for defense that people retreat to?
2.Regarding anchorable modules. Hubs have had a wide variety of hit points on Sisi, what are the reasons for more or less hit points on these hubs.
3. What purpose does CCP see for the grid/cpu on the infrastructure hub? Do you anticipate that these hubs will replace any POS for reactions or labs or other industry? Is this simply for guns?
4. How many hubs can we anchor per system?
5. Is the jump bridge range under consideration at all?
6. It seems this cost for Sov may cause some deflation with such a large isk sink. Is this intended by CCP, and if so why?
7. Does CCP have a sov coverage goal, and if so please describe what that is?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:41:00 - [449]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
Originally by: Inferno Styx
personally I'd cut the numbers in half. 1.25 billion for a max pimp'd systems sounds about right to me. I don't honestly think your going to see a lot of those systems around though. Huge alliances will probably get 10-15 in the future.

On the other subject about people not wanting to grind, I understand that isn't what you want to do and it's understandable. Given the current null sec environment (80% pvp characters and some indy/POS managers) it makes sense your there to pew-pew. However the point I want to make is that there are literally thousands of people out there who are willing to grind those rats and belts. The point I'm trying to make is that there are lots of ways to play the game and sometimes it's hard as hell to look at things from another perspective. Maybe big pvp alliances will start to have industrial wings that make cheap ships for them. Or the outer edges of your territory are open to those people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits in exchange for not getting hot dropped. There are also lots of people that will clear those crap anomalies and plex's.



most alliances alrady have industrial wings, they're just based in highsec because 0.0 production takes a lot more effort (another point in the 0.0 cost/benefit argument)


Zastrow, 0.0 production takes a lot more effort because people don't want to "waste" time mining the low ends along with the high ends. Consider that to keep things running a peak profitability they may need to mine some low ends now... which makes 0.0 production a lot easier than it currently is.

In conjunction to this also consider that a lot of alliances are going to find themselves wanting to make treaties (when released) to get industrial corps set up in their now unoccupied area's so that those area's can generate revenue for the main alliance (rent).

These two things, if handled properly, have to potential to develop a nice synergy. More resources available and consumed "in" 0.0... and an actual diversified production/market chain develops.

I'm not saying I think these things will dovetail automatically, at least not with the information we have about the current values and mechanics. I think some things are going to have to be tweaked, and there are still some pieces to the puzzle missing. What I am saying is that when you step back and look at how all of these little bits and pieces fit together (and yes, right now that can be a big headache) there "is" a method to the madness that has the potential to work (even though when you look at only a few aspects of these changes it seems impossible). I'm going to have to study this for a while.

The major point I see as needing to be addressed immediately is the lack of a sliding scale on cost per number of systems claimed. Right now the rates are scaring the little fella's, and not working as well as it could to control the bigger fish (although to be honest, the limited infrastructure available to newcomers will keep the prices fairly low at first anyway).

The tweaks will all have to aimed at the central goals of
1: Giving larger alliances a reason to scale back their personal holdings and make arrangements with smaller entities to generate income for them in return for protection.
2: Give the smaller alliances reason to want to leave Empire and develop an area even if paying rent to someone (I.E. being more profitable or at least equal in profit to Empire), and more fun to do.

When you step back and look at all the pieces the framework to achieve this is there, it just needs some work.

Footnote: Yes, the Droneland situation is going to have to be explained as well, they have some unique difficulties to overcome with this system.

Calruthian
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 07:42:00 - [450]
 

Fixing Sovereignty? I always knew it was only a matter of time before ccp dropped the ball.

What will be the point of invading someone else's space when ppl wont claim most of what they already own post patch?

It's going to be pathetic to look at the sov map all through 2010, if it ever recovers.



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