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Panzram
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:07:00 - [331]
 

problem: people aren't eating this plate full of poop

solution: a bigger plate of more expensive poop

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:08:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: d4shing
So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with:

Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192
# held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54%

Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82
Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234
Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33%

Average # of alliance members per system: 103
But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system.



Hey highsec guy. Guess what, small alliances typically have more than half their member-rolls inactive, large alliances probably hit around 20% inactive, but are more active cutting people because of counter-intel requirements.

Also, a large proportion of these characters are alts sitting in Empire because you can't support significant war activity from the resources in 0.0 unless you are dedicated moon goo expert sucking resources out of several systems at once just to support your own towers and ships, but that profession is certainly not going to support more than a handful of people per constellation.


In other words, what you just said makes no sense. Come to 0.0 and try to rat in a market hub with 60 in local if you disagree.

Twisted Mechanic
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:10:00 - [333]
 

Ohh and BTW nice of you all to thou CVA under the bus. Why would you even need a "territorial clam unit" when you got a damn OUTPOST!!!! Shouldn't that tell everyone your claiming this space by owning an OUTPOST!!!!

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:11:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Trent Nichols on 07/11/2009 04:47:15
Edited by: Trent Nichols on 07/11/2009 04:12:34
The aim of Dominion is good :

More isk in the hands of individual players less for the few who control the alliance, less alliance sprawl and therefore more room for newcomers to 0.0 etc...

The implementation is insanity:

The benefits of holding sov and upgrading space do not come anywhere near justifying the cost - not even close! A fully upgraded system is supposed to support over 100 players? The Devs must be smoking some strong stuff.

Since the costs do not scale with systems owned or the expanse of space they control, there is still nothing to prevent alliances from grabbing choice moons all over the galaxy.

Combine this development with the high cost of sov and you will see smaller alliances still unable to enter 0.0 because the high ends are still held and now, without that income, they cannot even afford to claim sov.

To fix it properly:

Give 0.0 space in general a large income boost, faster spawns and bigger asteroids to start with. Any upgrades should increase the potential isk in a system by at least 30% per level.

Make upkeep costs start out reasonable but cost per system should scale with total systems owned and/or the expanse of owned space.

At least some materials for T2 production should be obtainable from sources other than moons. I'm thinking special roids in exploration sites for starters.

MIRKINZ
Caldari
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:12:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: MIRKINZ on 07/11/2009 04:14:49
Originally by: Securitas Protector
CCP:

The cost is fair, but you need to boost the ISK-making ability in a system a lot for it to be so. I'd love to see costs like this with huge rewards. Make plexes spawn quickly, make denser roids, whatever you have to do, but increase the incentive as well as the price. I am a member of one of the small alliances ready to move into 0.0 come dominion.

-sec

But thats kinda the point! The more of them there are, the less they are worth. So if all the alliances out there are working 10/10 plexes, that means everyone is going to have officer loot to sell and the market will be flooded.

If you wanted to kill what makes this game so fantastic then you are going to do so with this patch. Name any other game where 3000 people come together to fight for thier home. You think its easy to jsut slam all these people together and say "Go here and protect our homeland!".
No!

A huge amount of effort goes into Maintence/Diplomacy/Governing and some people are very good at it! SO when CCP says "You know what? All that effort and hardwork is pointless, you should just disband and make a 100man alliance with one system, that way everyone can enjoy it."

Enjoy ****ing what? I play this game for the huge fights and the fleet combat, the 0.0 polictics and the real world aspects of this game. You want to "own" your own little chunk of space, go to low sec and claim it as your own. Don't make all the large alliances that have put so much effort into their existence go broke. CCP we are calling you out!! 14b a month for a JB network to Empire? Rediculous!

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:15:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
Every single 0.0 dweller in this thread is saying this is a bad idea. There is literally not a single person who thinks this is a good idea. There are some people trolling the 0.0 dwellers but no real debate.



After this dev blog, is there a SINGLE NEW ALLIANCE, just ONE, ANY NEW ALLIANCES who have read this blog and decided to move from empire to 0.0? ANYONE? ANYONE AT ALL?




Nullsec is now JUST. NOT. WORTH. IT. Balance the risk:reward. Look at the Cost:Benefit. There are HUGE COSTS in both time and effort for living in 0.0 and just not a single ****ing tangible benefit to make it worth your time.


nobody reads the last post on a page

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:18:00 - [337]
 

Level 4's are better. Either make the 0.0 isk gain far more or its simply not worth it. Unless you change this very simple problem anything you do wont amount a damn thing. Whatever changes you plan just ask yourself, "am i better off running level 4's" then you will know if it is a stupid idea or not.

Killljoy
Gallente
Gatehoppers
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:19:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: ep1k
Level 4's are better. Either make the 0.0 isk gain far more or its simply not worth it. Unless you change this very simple problem anything you do wont amount a damn thing. Whatever changes you plan just ask yourself, "am i better off running level 4's" then you will know if it is a stupid idea or not.


Agreed

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [339]
 

Maybe CCP's plan is to get all 0.0 alliances to cram themselves into pirate sov 0.0 and run L4 missions?

m3rb3aSt
Minmatar
Advanced Component Research Enterprise
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [340]
 

FIX ANOMOLIES!!!

They are pretty useless.

If you want to fix them...
1. Make them have regular old belt rats.
2. Make them send continuous waves of 4 BS 4 random support ships OVER AND OVER!
3. Make these waves get tougher and tougher.
4. Have these spawn all over the place!

There you just fixed them!

marxist revolutionary
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:20:00 - [341]
 

anyone who lives in 0.0 and rats instead of having an empire mission running alt has been gimping themselves, looks like this will continue to be the case

Smurphy1
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:22:00 - [342]
 

Wow CCP do you guys play your game? There are 100s of better upgrades out there and 0 worse ones. If you can't implement better upgrades because of flaws in your code you need to either scrap or delay this expansion. If there is any 0.0 dweller or Empire alliance that wants to move to 0.0 and is in favor of these changes speak now.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:27:00 - [343]
 

Looks pretty **** to be honest. I'm very underwhelmed.

I'm not sure how you expect to get the promised numbers crammed into a system with those naff upgrades. The costs do leave something to be desired too since a lot of the stuff you propose comes from activities that will circumvent corp taxes.


Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:29:00 - [344]
 

This Expansion had three promises that made me look forward to it.
Alliances holding less space, Sov being less of a pain in the ass and strongly encouraging "Carebearing" as an alliance income instead of passive ressources.

So far i cant see any of these points being done.

Alliances may have sov in less systems, but much like before poses were introduced, alliances will still control regions easily. Not having sov in a system isnt going to stop me curbstomping a newcommer alliances that has setup shop in a remote corner 2 regions away from the 10 systems i have sov in, because i move my caps there which takes me 15minutes and bridge 200 subcaps there as well while im at it.
Point is, while sov is made more expensive, empty space is still as unaccessible as it has been before and it is still as easy to control vast space for single alliances.

Part of that is because much of the "sov" system in dominion depends on Structure Hp rather then timers. Ie. numbers are still king and a 100 man dread fleet can clear a region in one hour while a 5man dread fleet would grows beards instead. The 100men dreadfleets number benefit should simply be that it can wipe out smaller fleets, but not take sov faster then those - This would enable smaller alliances to wage war against similar sized alliances without exposing dreadfleets long enough for half of eve to come by, but also take bites out of bigger alliances, should those not be there.

Last part is the alliance and alliance member isk making - the current moon mining is skewed and as you outlined, alliances only needing moons and nothing else as isk source makes most industrial players a liability in 0.0
Bummer that the solutions brought up so far arent doing a thing to change this, moon income is still going to be number 1 if sisi stays the same. The system upgrades will nowhere near support the numbers suggested for making isk in one system, nor do i see any reason to bring more carebears into an alliance after dominion then before.

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:31:00 - [345]
 

Whoever came up with these numbers should be fired because they are totally INSANE. Exclamation. Underline. Bold. One one one one!!!

First off, you are assuming that the new payment system will replace fueling 5 large pos right now to hold sov. This is not the case. Almost nobody puts up extra towers to do nothing but claim sov. You have one to run a cyno jammer, one or two to run a jump bridge, and the rest do moon mining and reacting. None of these are going away in the new system. Secondly, you come up with a figure of over 2 billion isk a month for the upgrades to give us what we have now? 5 large pos only cost 600 mil a month to fuel, and of course, you can mine most of the fuel yourself locally rather than pay straight isk.

Then as others have said, none of these upgrades seem to be adding near the amount of income potential that you have hinted at, let alone enough to pay the exorbitant costs of sov.

And what is this some people keep saying about a base of 3 anomalies per system right now? If I can 20 systems I might find 2 anomalies total. I can be the only person ratting in a system for hours and keep scanning while ratting and never see one.

Cheekything
Gallente
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:33:00 - [346]
 

This is just the rise of the Commi alliances and the whines of the rest.

Awesome :D

Solock
Caldari
Rage For Order
En Garde
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:33:00 - [347]
 

Just finished reading all 12 pages of that thread. i'm now despressed. I don't see a single positive about this. When you have goons agreeing with atlas agreeing with CVA agreeing with RAWR agreeing with sys-k agreeing with ... we *all* cant be wrong

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:37:00 - [348]
 

Edited by: Bobby Atlas on 07/11/2009 04:37:39
Originally by: d4shing
So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with:

Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192
# held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54%

Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82
Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234
Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33%

Average # of alliance members per system: 103
But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system.

So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does.

It seems pretty obvious to me that devs can't be married to any numbers. They put these up to make current holders think long and hard about what their best systems are, and which ones they don't really care about.

The proper equilibrium, though, will be one where there are a number of systems that nobody cares enough to claim and pay for sovereignty in. The current equilibrium is that sov is way too cheap, every square inch of eve is spoken for, and it's inefficiently allocated. Relatedly, the current mechanism for redistributing it (POS warfare) sucks.

To succeed, they have to price sov such that a large number of holders with a large number of systems decide that they only want 1/2 as much space, give or take. If they initially price it too low, and that doesn't happen, they'll just have to raise it over time. I'm not a community manager or anything, but I bet they'd prefer to take a rip-off-the-bandaid approach, rather than deal with new rounds of whiny posts every time they ratchet up sov price to attain the desired equilibrium. If half the space is unclaimed after a few weeks, then they can slowly lower the price to rejoicing internet posts.


The upgrades do look kinda crappy, though. The goon who posted about how their crappiness reflects underlying problems with the game (arch/hack sites aren't worth much, mining outside of empire has a poor risk/reward tradeoff, etc.) is spot on, imo. Hopefully those can be improved, but everyone should realize that a price for sov that doesn't make everyone scream is sure to be too cheap.


You are wrong on so many levels, those 500 man alliances with 5 systems do not have 100 people online at a time or ever, there max participation at peak hours are usually 20-30 , 50 if you are lucky and the number of those who actually rat/mine/plex in 0.0 for income is a fraction of. Further, vast majority of the numbers in most alliances are comprised of inactive's and alts of various types such as cyno, market, inde, capital etc... So even an alliance such as ATLAS with say 2600 members - in reality you only got about 45-50% of that (if you are lucky) who are living and breathing people and a high percentage of those individuals earn income through methods outside of 0.0 (empire mission alts, npc space mission alts [i.e: stain]).

I have been playing this game for over half a decade, once upon a time it was a niche idea to come out to 0.0 to make money but people quickly learned and it has long been the case - that you do not go to 0.0 to make money. This is something dominion was supposed to fix, sadly the reality is as disappointing as it was when I first ventured into 0.0 many years ago.

Finally, if you think any current system can sustain 100 people in it you are out to lunch, please point me to this solar system in 0.0 cause I have yet to find one. Likewise with dominion, from indications so far, it will fail to achieve anything near that level of player density relative to profit in any system either.

marxist revolutionary
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:37:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Solock
Just finished reading all 12 pages of that thread. i'm now despressed. I don't see a single positive about this. When you have goons agreeing with atlas agreeing with CVA agreeing with RAWR agreeing with sys-k agreeing with ... we *all* cant be wrong


IT alliance pets teh ~pilots of honoure~ of aeturnus alliance disagree!

Smurphy1
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:42:00 - [350]
 

These changes clearly show that either
A. No one who works at CCP actually plays EVE in 0.0 or
B. That little clip about quality or excellence at Fanfest was a load of crap.
Or both.

The reason I know this: Either you don't understand the current state of your game(Read this thread its not to hard to figure out the current state) or you passed on all the worthwhile upgrades cause it would be too hard to add to the code.

So if you really are practicing Excellence then take the time to do this right or don't do it at all.

Togae Alus
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:46:00 - [351]
 

we need this dominion fixed if not you will losse players as we dont want to spend endless hours grinding for isk

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:46:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:48:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: Zastrow on 07/11/2009 04:49:59
I know there's people at CCP reading this thread and thinking "Oh there's always people *****ing on the forums, they'll get over it"... Realize you've taken all the excitement and buzz about Dominion and with a single devblog turned it into disappointment and rejection. This sov change isn't something we'll get over, because it's not in the best interests of the game. You've added a great disincentive to sprawling space empires but without an incentive to do the extra work, nobody's going to bother. You gave us the cost of sov, now give us a real benefit.


Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: The Mittani
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH




this is the same reaction everyone is having, and for good reason. now contribute to the thread or stop ****ing posting

toxicvega
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:53:00 - [354]
 

So lets say that you really have 75K active subs... I assume there are more but can't and don't have the time to look them up. Thats something in the range of more than a million USD per month that you rake in. A million a month and this is the bull**** we pay you for. Last time I check I was the consumer and YOU are the producer. I/We counting 12 or so pages in the last couple hours of people telling you your plan and Ideas are horrible. No wonder you droped it on a friday evening. You knew it was crap and are too damned lazy to do anything about it. A million dollars a month and your programmers and content designers are nothing but total fail.
How about you produce something worth paying for. I.E. not this ****.

Zimi Vlasic
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:54:00 - [355]
 

You CCP pieces of garbage better refund the almost $300 I just ****ed away in account renewal after you drop this turd on us.

What a goddamn waste of money

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:58:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord


On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it.


with current t2 production i woudl agree. but with the re-balancing of components there will be several different type of moons that give a decent profit, rather than one or two making insane ammnts of isk. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons

Avoida
Posted - 2009.11.07 05:02:00 - [357]
 

Increased costs aside for the moment, current alliance territories will contract and (I'm betting) large areas of 0.0 will suddenly appear unclaimed...but that does not mean anybody will be able to claim those systems. Alliances will quickly adopt the "if we can't have it, nobody can" mentality and will easily dispatch any attempts by smaller entities to stake their claim. Existing territory holders will merely continue to utilize the now unclaimed space but forgo the claim marker.

Nothing will change basically.

You might even see an alliance anchoring GSCs near gates to act as an unofficial claim markers to let anybody thinking of attempting to stake a claim will get sent back to Empire via their medical clone.

Diaxess
Curses Mom
Posted - 2009.11.07 05:04:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
Originally by: ElvenLord


On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it.


with current t2 production i woudl agree. but with the re-balancing of components there will be several different type of moons that give a decent profit, rather than one or two making insane ammnts of isk. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons


Where? In say a region that AAA or Goons or RZR lives in. They may not have sov in but half the systems but I promise you no one else is going to either. Just because it doesn't have my alliance as sov, damned sure doesn't mean I will let anyone else have it. If I can't have no one can, and I am sure any other region holding alliance think the same thing.

Mskpath3
Posted - 2009.11.07 05:06:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
. smaller alliances will be able to capitalize on these less rare moons


No, they won't because the big alliances are still going to be there. They're just going to end up not claiming sov in many systems. They will simply maintain military presence without the sov. Small alliances will get curbstomped all the same.

Actually, I'm making the prediction now : Someone is going to make a 3rd party virtual sov calculation tool that reports sov via tower count or something else that approximates the current system. Ingame sov be damned.

Lucas Tigh
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 05:07:00 - [360]
 

Edited by: Lucas Tigh on 07/11/2009 05:09:12
Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.


ITT a bunch of Bobby Atlas's enemies empty quote him.


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