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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.22 01:18:00 - [3511]
 

Originally by: Reno Shinra
Reading through the patch notes and ppl comments this patch is equivalent to the film 2012 - Basickly its dooms day. CCP will undo all the good things about eve and give us basickly africa - with no resources and limited way to expand again. small entities will stay small and large entities will grow smaller. eventually it will be the extinction of the eve comunity. and we can all go and play somthing else.

Funny how in all the post i have read not one replay from ccp on this post.


Lol confirming eve is now a third world country..

Lets not kid ourselves what dominion does. It nerfs a nullsec corps income by (possibly) nerfing the price of moon goo. This is a bit of an unknown- we do know the "demand" will decrease. It is a bit unknown if the price will decrease (though its a logical assumption)
There are reasons why they want to nerf this (somewhat) passive income- i wont bother getting into them, just saying its happening.

On the other hand, a null sec corps members can expect to make more isk per hour with active sources. The catch is if the corp has to upgrade their systems (or enough of them) Theres no doubt whatsoever that ccp has "buffed" active sources of individual incomes. Its up to the corps to utilize these buffs- and yes it will cost isk.

Now if you ask me do i expect null sec corps to shell out billions so theyre members can make many more billions. No i do not. Its not that the corps cant afford it (the established ones can anyway). Its that they would rather all the profits of moon goo go into their pockets (ceo, directers-ie select few)

If you find yourself in a nullsec corp that is too greedy to upgrade their systems- leave it and join one that cares about its members.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.23 16:14:00 - [3512]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 23/11/2009 16:14:45
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Non-constructive content removed.Applebabe




This is the first time I have ever been censored in a forum. EVER for ANY GAME I HAVE PLAYED. And the "constructive" post I believe was in regards to holding off the SOV release.

This is so incredibly offensive and disparaging toward myself and the player base it is beyond reprehensible. You may be able to silence some of us on these forums but you will not be able to silence those of us who speak outside of it - and believe - my voice and many others do get heard and are being heard.


Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.24 13:30:00 - [3513]
 

Edited by: Itzena on 24/11/2009 13:30:44
CCP speaks...elsewhere:
Quote:
The biggest change to resources that will happen in Dominion 1.0 is that players owning space in 0.0 space will be able to upgrade the density so that more people can live in a given system. The income however isn't being increased much over what players can get from level 4 mission in the initial point release so we don't expect a massive exodus of people out of empire space or a massive change in the influx of money or resources. We're going to watch how the resource upgrades take hold and iterate on them. The majority of the upgrades revolve around exploration content and we have plans to boost that content, but not until we let players get used to the system and we're sure we're not going to crash the economy.

So fully upgraded 0.0 three or four months down the line in a tiny handful of 0.0 system with sovereignty costs and higher cost of 'living' generally = marginally better than solo running L4s all day long with zero risk.

Assuming that CCP remembered to factor LP rewards and mission bonuses into their equations, natch.

welp

Mack Bane
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.24 17:45:00 - [3514]
 

Most ppl.tend to forget, that missionrunners in NPC-corps. didn't pay taxes. That's about to change too, so,there you go.An 11%-nerf,on profitability of all missions (the lvl.doesn't matter).

Chiyoko sama
Griefer-B-Gone
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.24 18:29:00 - [3515]
 

CCP,

The introduction of Concord Sovereignty Taxation needs to be removed from the Dominion Patch. This effectively turns 0.0 into nothing more than empire, complete with taxes and all the concord red tape.

At first I had doubts, but relied on the "devs must know their game better than myself". Through actively testing these sov changes on Sisi, I have come to doubt whether the developers still understand how this game works. CCP has prided itself on the largest and best "sandbox game" in the industry, however these sov changes are entirely antithetical to the "sandbox". This is the forced tyranny of concord taxation, with no recourse left to players. Sov will be auctioned to the highest bidder, not the collective warfare and industrial skills of an alliance.

Sov is not something you buy, it is something you fight for.

Please leave us alone and stop trying micromanaging us.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.25 00:53:00 - [3516]
 

Originally by: Chiyoko sama
CCP,

The introduction of Concord Sovereignty Taxation needs to be removed from the Dominion Patch. This effectively turns 0.0 into nothing more than empire, complete with taxes and all the concord red tape.

At first I had doubts, but relied on the "devs must know their game better than myself". Through actively testing these sov changes on Sisi, I have come to doubt whether the developers still understand how this game works. CCP has prided itself on the largest and best "sandbox game" in the industry, however these sov changes are entirely antithetical to the "sandbox". This is the forced tyranny of concord taxation, with no recourse left to players. Sov will be auctioned to the highest bidder, not the collective warfare and industrial skills of an alliance.

Sov is not something you buy, it is something you fight for.

Please leave us alone and stop trying micromanaging us.


Talk about missing the point.

Look ill make it clear- upgrade your systems or not. Spend 100% of your time pvp'ing- or spend some making isk. Its up to you. Stop complaining about ppl "forcing" you to do things. Do whatever you want. Nothing in that regards has been changed.

Major Brainfart
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.11.25 03:07:00 - [3517]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 13/11/2009 08:42:15
Here's an idea, CCP - if we're supposed to consolidate space, how about removing the restrictions on only one outpost per system? That's less jump bridges needed, less *systems* needed, and "moar targets Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil" for if/when you do that "wrecking outposts" idea.

I know the *old* way of doing things was to require you to own a minimum of two different systems if you wanted to have a refinery and factory, but what's the excuse now?

As for the "complex beacon" idea above, simply anchor a dockable object (one of many in the 'large collidable object' family should do) that has no station services except an LP store. Allow *any* faction (including FW and Empire) and any amount of agents thereof of that faction in, so one agent for each level @ LxQ-20, LxQ0, and LxQ20.

I'm not particularly keen on the whole idea of "fixing the L4 mission quandary" with just adding more missions, but the ability to run *any* kind from *any* faction might be interesting.


Multiple outposts...and add stations. Real stations, just like the NPC's have. The build cost would be astronimical I'm sure, but if you put them in game, they'll be built by someone regardless. And they'll rock. If you want a lot of players in a solar system, just let us build one of those. It'll happen then.

Shazbot Nanu
Posted - 2009.11.25 03:14:00 - [3518]
 

Edited by: Shazbot Nanu on 25/11/2009 03:21:05
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Future Mutant
Just out of curiosity what are you claiming is now possible for isk/hour in null?
For ratting?
For mining?
Anomilies? Slightly harder as its more random- assume 100 hours spent and calculate isk/hour from there.


For ratting, 20m is possible for regular belt rats (faction and officer spawns increase this number but are too random in their appearance and value to properly account for).

Do bear in mind this is only possible in a relatively small number of 0.0 systems (low truesec and high beltcount), requires at least one hour and often longer to prune out the low-value spawns, only works for one ratter per system at a time (2 or 3 at a time for some exceptionally high beltcount systems), and can be interrupted at any moment by a roaming neutral entering system.


edited for politeness

Try plexing. Once you learn which plexes to run and which not to bother with, there is big ISK there. More than in running level 4's. It does require more skillpoints and better fits, though.

Gordo Fartis
Caldari
13th Squadron
E C L I P S E
Posted - 2009.11.25 11:43:00 - [3519]
 

My corp has lived in 0.0 for quite a while now... we have been involved in many wars, we run plexes, cosmic anomalies, production etc.

The main problem of 0.0 until now is that active resources were finite. Plexes had to be hunted and there werent many per system, CA also once finished you had to wait for them to respawn etc, ratting was a pain in the ass as it could not support more than 2 or 3 players on an average system. In other words there were not enough resources to support the player base hence the LVL 4 mission running in empire which is dull and you have to do the good ones along with the bad ones.

With the advent of Dominion things chage as there is a possibility to have 20 anomalies continuosly spawning, which means that the system can now support at least 20 people. Add to this the other upgrades and systems are starting to become interesting. Please note that I am not taking into consideration (ratting, Mining and exploration)

As systems support more people there will be more industry and therefore les need to bring stuff from empire (which is dull). The knock on effect of this is that more sutff will stay behind in 0.0 due to the increased market which will also increase prices in Jita and other market hubs.

From the point of view of a small alliance/corp living next door to a larger entity, the idea that the large alliance will stomp on the small one (who is willing to develop the system) is rather short sighted. What I suspect will happen is that large alliances will allow smaller alliances to develop areas adjacent to theirs as it gives the large alliance an income stream, more space for their members, more people in the area to develop systems and more people for defence.

Large myopic alliances that stomp on smaller neighbours will slowly disapear as members start to drift to those that provide better space.

Wars will still happen in a more strategic maner and it is here were smaller alliances/corps are at risk as they will be the natural target for the agressor. With this in mind I suspect that unfriendly alliances will find themselves with empty surrounding areas of poor space and slowly lose members to those alliances that support their smaller neighbours.


Otin Bison
Gallente
Bison Industrial Inc
Posted - 2009.11.25 17:05:00 - [3520]
 

original quote edited for specific points.
Originally by: Gordo Fartis

From the point of view of a small alliance/corp living next door to a larger entity, the idea that the large alliance will stomp on the small one (who is willing to develop the system) is rather short sighted. What I suspect will happen is that large alliances will allow smaller alliances to develop areas adjacent to theirs as it gives the large alliance an income stream, more space for their members, more people in the area to develop systems and more people for defence.

Short sighted or not, the few nul-sec alliances I have spoken with have universally stated they will only be sov'ing in key areas and still keep others (read little guys) out by stomping.

Originally by: Gordo Fartis
Large myopic alliances that stomp on smaller neighbours will slowly disapear as members start to drift to those that provide better space.

Wars will still happen in a more strategic maner and it is here were smaller alliances/corps are at risk as they will be the natural target for the agressor. With this in mind I suspect that unfriendly alliances will find themselves with empty surrounding areas of poor space and slowly lose members to those alliances that support their smaller neighbours.


I suspect a lot of empty (non sov) space out there that the mega-allainces will not allow anyone but renter-pets (I hate that term) in and considering the current costs to rent a system and now the mod costs ... gonna be a lot of unused space out there. Shocked

Evil Cain
Posted - 2009.11.26 16:32:00 - [3521]
 

this is outrageous paying for systems we have been fighting for the last 3 years or so,another thing is where do you get these numbers from fuel cost is not 4 bill a month per system.Maybe it´s time to quit the game and move to the next one, Someone has forgotten to take his pills for several months plz send him to the nut house

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.26 18:43:00 - [3522]
 

Originally by: Evil Cain
this is outrageous paying for systems we have been fighting for the last 3 years or so,another thing is where do you get these numbers from fuel cost is not 4 bill a month per system.Maybe it´s time to quit the game and move to the next one, Someone has forgotten to take his pills for several months plz send him to the nut house



Obligatory can i have your stuff?
No seriously- please stop your whining and just leave already.

Dominion will increase the income a person can make in null- end of story.
Your corps moon goo income will easily pay for sov costs- as well as upgrade costs.

You still get to fight over your space- or take others space.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.26 20:31:00 - [3523]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2009 21:00:01
Originally by: Future Mutant
Dominion will increase the income a person can make in null- end of story.
Yes? And? If you pay attention, you'll notice that no-one is actually arguing otherwise.

The argument is that, while you can now earn more (if you choose to pay for it), this "more" is still less than it should be: highsec will still provide far better (not simply "higher") income, which completely ruins the entire point of the expansion.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.26 23:12:00 - [3524]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2009 21:00:01
Originally by: Future Mutant
Dominion will increase the income a person can make in null- end of story.
Yes? And? If you pay attention, you'll notice that no-one is actually arguing otherwise.

The argument is that, while you can now earn more (if you choose to pay for it), this "more" is still less than it should be: highsec will still provide far better (not simply "higher") income, which completely ruins the entire point of the expansion.


I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.

Boink'urr
Minmatar
Wasserette De Tarthorst
Posted - 2009.11.27 11:53:00 - [3525]
 

Actually, when thinking about this, it kinda feels like the large 0.0 alliances are becoming the rental pets of Concord Shocked They became little 9 to 5 biatches just like the rest of us D:

Somehow, and I'm not even in null so i have no side to pick, it feels a bit odd to have people that wandered into zero protection space pay taxes to a faction that only polices hi sec basically. Why exactly does Concord get to tax these alliances? What mysterious power do they have over these Alliances?

Come to think of it, CCP kinda acts like any generic gouvernment: the answer to any problem is basically TAX-EM! Rolling Eyes

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.27 12:17:00 - [3526]
 

Edited by: Future Mutant on 27/11/2009 12:18:01
Originally by: Boink'urr
Actually, when thinking about this, it kinda feels like the large 0.0 alliances are becoming the rental pets of Concord Shocked They became little 9 to 5 biatches just like the rest of us D:

Somehow, and I'm not even in null so i have no side to pick, it feels a bit odd to have people that wandered into zero protection space pay taxes to a faction that only polices hi sec basically. Why exactly does Concord get to tax these alliances? What mysterious power do they have over these Alliances?

Come to think of it, CCP kinda acts like any generic gouvernment: the answer to any problem is basically TAX-EM! Rolling Eyes


If your going to give null sec corps huge passive income streams (moon goo) then you need some way to siphon off or have that isk used up.
They tried the "spend hours upon hours either fueling up a pos/or shooting one" way- with the isk sink being the dreads and the pos's (as well as their fuel)
Now theyre trying a simplier method- if it makes the role player in you feel better then just consider the sov payments as "bribes", cuts to other controling "pirates" and the like.

Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.27 13:53:00 - [3527]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2009 21:00:01
Originally by: Future Mutant
Dominion will increase the income a person can make in null- end of story.
Yes? And? If you pay attention, you'll notice that no-one is actually arguing otherwise.

The argument is that, while you can now earn more (if you choose to pay for it), this "more" is still less than it should be: highsec will still provide far better (not simply "higher") income, which completely ruins the entire point of the expansion.


I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.



I am impressed by this Republic Military School pilot knowing so much about life in 0.0.

Will you run for CSM? I'd vote for you.

Cargol Bages
Caldari
The 5th Freedom
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.11.27 15:07:00 - [3528]
 

I really like these new changes to sov. Less tower bashing, wider need for tactics and the posibility to upgrade your home! It's all great but:

Why must it be more profitable to be in Empire in complete safety than in 0.0, risking your ISK?
I just don't get it... Can someone PLEASE explain to me why the rewards aren't greater in 0.0 than in Empire?

The devs say the rewards from a high end anomaly will be on par with the rewards from a level 4 mission in Empire. Where is the logic in that???

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.27 15:37:00 - [3529]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.
No. After dominion, they will pay the same or less. Ratting doesn't change, still requires tons of prep work and will still be limited to a very small number of players per system. Anomalies won't pay more because they're designed not to — the only ones that might pay more than L4s are the old ones, which suffer the same fate as ratting (aren't affected by dominion, only sustains a very tiny number, most are worthless as it is). Mining isn't worth it as it is, and adding tons of grav-sites doesn't improve things since they're a ***** to empty out and cycle.

So no, it won't be better and it certainly won't pay more. Not because I say so, but because CCP says so.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.27 21:59:00 - [3530]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.
No. After dominion, they will pay the same or less. Ratting doesn't change, still requires tons of prep work and will still be limited to a very small number of players per system. Anomalies won't pay more because they're designed not to — the only ones that might pay more than L4s are the old ones, which suffer the same fate as ratting (aren't affected by dominion, only sustains a very tiny number, most are worthless as it is). Mining isn't worth it as it is, and adding tons of grav-sites doesn't improve things since they're a ***** to empty out and cycle.

So no, it won't be better and it certainly won't pay more. Not because I say so, but because CCP says so.


See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.
On an isk per hour basis- having more means more income.
More rats to shoot= more income.
More anomalies to run= more income
More hidden roids to mine= more income

To say dominion would mean equal or even less income compared to isk per hour now is beyond misleading- it is a blatant lie.

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.28 00:22:00 - [3531]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.
On an isk per hour basis- having more means more income.
More rats to shoot= more income.
More anomalies to run= more income
More hidden roids to mine= more income

To say dominion would mean equal or even less income compared to isk per hour now is beyond misleading- it is a blatant lie.


Say I have a system with a lot of belts that I can rat for 25 mil ISK/h. Suppose in Dominion CCP now adds some abnormalities which I can run to earn 20 mil ISK/h, and some hidden asteroids I can mine from 10 mil ISK/h. How much ISK/h can I earn from this system?

something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.11.28 03:18:00 - [3532]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
I disagree with this entirely. Even before dominion someone in null can make more then they could make in the following activities. Ratting, mining, running anomalies.
More income ratting in null compared to ratting in highsec.
More income mining in null compared to mining in hisec.
More income running anomalies in null compared to running them in hisec.

Im many cases now these activities meet or exceed lvl 4 mission running isk per hour. After dominion they will pay even more.
No. After dominion, they will pay the same or less. Ratting doesn't change, still requires tons of prep work and will still be limited to a very small number of players per system. Anomalies won't pay more because they're designed not to — the only ones that might pay more than L4s are the old ones, which suffer the same fate as ratting (aren't affected by dominion, only sustains a very tiny number, most are worthless as it is). Mining isn't worth it as it is, and adding tons of grav-sites doesn't improve things since they're a ***** to empty out and cycle.

So no, it won't be better and it certainly won't pay more. Not because I say so, but because CCP says so.


See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.
On an isk per hour basis- having more means more income.
More rats to shoot= more income.
More anomalies to run= more income
More hidden roids to mine= more income

To say dominion would mean equal or even less income compared to isk per hour now is beyond misleading- it is a blatant lie.



have you actualy tried to "farm" a system ?
say 10 belts bad true sec status (more than half of eve) (-0.20)
first you will even run into troubles making the required military index to advance
and if by magic you manage that at first you will be swamped by utter **** cosmic anomalys (run some and you will know)
and no cosmic anomalys arnt equal to missions in rewards (that is bounty salvage loot and LP)
and you are going to have to run the bad ones (read 90% of them) so you might be luckyer at the respawn and in adition you have to keep your military index up
wich is impossible with simple beltratting
as for the other signatures
if you care to check the market it already took a preemtive dive on things like decryptors and the likes wich now will be more abundant thus reducing your rewards

as for upgraded mining stuff
that looks to be usefull but im not to well versed in the intricacies of that market to postulate a likely outcome of that change

Kanatta Jing
Posted - 2009.11.28 11:16:00 - [3533]
 

Originally by: something somethingdark
as for upgraded mining stuff
that looks to be usefull but im not to well versed in the intricacies of that market to postulate a likely outcome of that change


If it is truly the miners dream, and everyone gets a pet mining corp or two, then 0.0 markets are going to get right weird in a few months.

Effects will be less severe in Empire as they will have to trickle in.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.28 11:19:00 - [3534]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.
Oh dear. You haven't read up on what the upgrade system does and what it will provide, have you?
Quote:
More rats to shoot= more income.
…except that there isn't a "more rats" upgrade. The closest thing is the "more anomalies" one where the rats are worth far less.
Quote:
More anomalies to run= more income
…except that "more income" = "on par with L4s" for the top tier anomalies that the upgrade system will spawn.
Quote:
More hidden roids to mine= more income
…except that the market is already saturated and mining is already not worth it. Adding more of something that there's already too much of makes it worth even less. In addition, the gravsite despawn mechanics means you'll either quickly mine out everything valuable and then have to wait for three days, or you'll have to waste time mining worthless ore.

You'd be half-right if you changed the above statements to "income for more people", which is a different thing, but the problem is that CCP have already stated that they fall well short of the goal, at most providing income for an additional 10-20ppl per system rather than the 100 or so they were initially touting. The problem is that this additional sustainability comes at a cost — a cost that certainly can be paid for by the added income of the upgrades, but that's just it: you pay for upgrades that give you on par income with highsec.

"On par" (at best) income, minus the costs of having the upgrades that give that income = less income than highsec L4s. Oops! Rolling Eyes

Feyleaf
Posted - 2009.11.28 13:00:00 - [3535]
 

This is the death of the sandbox, paying taxes to concord(whatever)for 0.0!? lame. Instead of fighting for territory we now all become concord pets and have to grind our ass off or buy isk. This also makes nrds impossible which is very bad for the game. I honestly dont know what the dev's are thinking, maybe paying the full price for -1.0 and 1/10 for -0.1? It would be just as lame but less game-breaking, Maybe giving the owner of a system the power to tax all rat kills in the system by say up to 5%, low price for the first sov systems with prices scaling upwards? If nrds dies then I wont have anything worth fighting for, can always fight other ppls wars and look at the pretty explosions, did that once but it got old quickly, I guess il keep a pirate/gank char and cancel the others. But we will see how it goes.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.28 18:39:00 - [3536]
 

Edited by: Future Mutant on 28/11/2009 18:41:51
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
See thats an outright lie. Systems can be upgraded to provide more rats, more anomalies, more hidden astroids.
Oh dear. You haven't read up on what the upgrade system does and what it will provide, have you?

Yes i have- but i dont have unrealistic expectations either. Dominion upgrades WILL provide more income- for more ppl, if the systems are upgraded.


Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
More rats to shoot= more income.
…except that there isn't a "more rats" upgrade. The closest thing is the "more anomalies" one where the rats are worth far less.


Aside from the more anomolies upgrade i keep reading about something theyve been calling a "pirate magnet". The description sounds a lot like more rats to me.

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
More anomalies to run= more income
…except that "more income" = "on par with L4s" for the top tier anomalies that the upgrade system will spawn.


Yes except for the possibility of multi billion isk mods dropping the income will be similar to lvl 4's. Sounds fair to me.

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Future Mutant
More hidden roids to mine= more income
…except that the market is already saturated and mining is already not worth it. Adding more of something that there's already too much of makes it worth even less. In addition, the gravsite despawn mechanics means you'll either quickly mine out everything valuable and then have to wait for three days, or you'll have to waste time mining worthless ore.


A miner in null can easily make 50 mill an hour NOW- if he has transport support. Hidden belts sound great- they even come with special rats to shoot. Sounds like an improved situation to me.

Originally by: Tippia
You'd be half-right if you changed the above statements to "income for more people", which is a different thing, but the problem is that CCP have already stated that they fall well short of the goal, at most providing income for an additional 10-20ppl per system rather than the 100 or so they were initially touting. The problem is that this additional sustainability comes at a cost — a cost that certainly can be paid for by the added income of the upgrades, but that's just it: you pay for upgrades that give you on par income with highsec.


Your corp should pay for the upgrades- what do you think the moon goo income is for?

Originally by: Tippia
"On par" (at best) income, minus the costs of having the upgrades that give that income = less income than highsec L4s. Oops! Rolling Eyes



Again your corp should use its passive income for paying for sov and the upgrads. Your average member shouldnt see a tax increase. Its simple- null sec pays more after dominion then before dominion. You can argue all you want about more or less then "lvl 4's". But the simple truth is- if you want to do lvl 4's- by all means do them. If you want to stay in null to make isk- you now have improved sources to make your isk from.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.28 20:03:00 - [3537]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/11/2009 20:07:38
Originally by: Future Mutant
Yes i have- but i dont have unrealistic expectations either. Dominion upgrades WILL provide more income- for more ppl, if the systems are upgraded.
That sounds like a very unrealistic expectation.
Quote:
Aside from the more anomolies upgrade i keep reading about something theyve been calling a "pirate magnet". The description sounds a lot like more rats to me.
So you haven't read up then?

Quoth CCP:
Pirate Magnets - add two additional guaranteed anomalies per level to your solar system
Quote:
Yes except for the possibility of multi billion isk mods dropping the income will be similar to lvl 4's. Sounds fair to me.
You're talking about the existing anomalies – not the ones being discussed here. Again, you haven't read up.

Quoth CCP:
Financially, the top tier anomalies that will be spawning are much more profitable than mining and ratting currently is, and pretty much on par with level 4s.
Quote:
A miner in null can easily make 50 mill an hour NOW- if he has transport support. Hidden belts sound great- they even come with special rats to shoot. Sounds like an improved situation to me.
So he makes 25M/h. Special rats is something you've dreamed up. And you're still missing the fundamental point that more mining = less valuable ore and that the extra mining come from grav sites that will require you to mine crap ores if you want to get large amounts of the good ones. So either you lose ISK/h by mining crap or you lose ISK/h from not having anything left to mine.

Quote:
Your corp should pay for the upgrades- what do you think the moon goo income is for?
…which assumes that everyone has that kind of passive income, and ignores that this passive income has been reduced because CCP wants alliances to use this upgrade system to make use of active incomes instead. It also completely goes against the main idea behind the sov changes – to make it easier to get into 0.0 – but we all already know that this has failed.
Quote:
Again your corp should use its passive income for paying for sov and the upgrads. Your average member shouldnt see a tax increase. Its simple- null sec pays more after dominion then before dominion.
Funny that. CCP says otherwise. Less passive income, more active income, which has to be gathered by taxes, which means null-sec pays less than before.

Now, if you're going to argue that people complaining are wrong, at least show the common courtesy of actually having the slightest bit of clue about the topic at hand and read up on what's going into this change. Have a slightest bit of clue about basic economics, logistics, and 0.0 life in general. Until you do, stop trying to present your personal unfounded and irrelevant fantasies as something that might be accidentally confused with facts.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.29 02:30:00 - [3538]
 

Now i admit im prolly wrong about a few specifics- theres just to many pages of threads to read. A lot of it is contradictory at best.

But still the fact remains- your income in null before dominion is less then your income will be after dominion.

Moon goo income- is not so much getting nerfed as it is distributed among the minerals more. Even if the income drops slightly your corp will have plenty of isk to pay for system sov and upgrades. It may cut down on what your ceo/directors can line their pockets with but eh, cry me a river.

I see a lot of ppl comparing null income with lvl 4 mission income. But i dont see many ppl using ratting ships that even come close to what the average mission ship costs.
seems ppl think they should make as much in a cruiser- as some make in a golem. Unrealistic.

Theres a lot of isk to be made in null- but the fact remains you are completely free to stop whining and join us in hi sec doing lvl 4's if you want.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.29 12:21:00 - [3539]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
But still the fact remains- your income in null before dominion is less then your income will be after dominion.
How is that a fact? Everything you've brought up to suggest that this will happen goes against what CCP is actually saying.
Quote:
Moon goo income- is not so much getting nerfed as it is distributed among the minerals more.
So you're telling me CCP is wrong here too? After all, their express purpose for the nerf is to make it less valuable as part of making the "AFK empires" go away.
Quote:
But i dont see many ppl using ratting ships that even come close to what the average mission ship costs.
Hardly relevant – you use what's best for the purpose, and the best-suited ship is the one that provide the best income. As it happens, a Golem isn't the best-suited ship for 0.0 belt ratting, so it doesn't matter how good it is at L4s. Price has nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Theres a lot of isk to be made in null- but the fact remains you are completely free to stop whining and join us in hi sec doing lvl 4's if you want.
…and that's the whole point. In their attempts to make living in 0.0 more attractive, they've once again made it a better choice to live in highsec.

The stated goal was to compress the nullsec empires; to make it easier for newcomers to get a foothold; to make more people move out; to kill POSbashing; and to remove the AFK:ness of the current system. Of these, only the POS-bash removal will happen, and just like with Exodus, it will only more drive people into empire to run their AFK empires because that's how it's best done.

Gevic
Posted - 2009.11.29 17:53:00 - [3540]
 

Originally by: Tippia

The stated goal was to compress the nullsec empires; to make it easier for newcomers to get a foothold; to make more people move out; to kill POSbashing; and to remove the AFK:ness of the current system. Of these, only the POS-bash removal will happen, and just like with Exodus, it will only more drive people into empire to run their AFK empires because that's how it's best done.


I've GOT IT! That's exactly it! Since everyone, except for the poor bastards that have to maintain and put w/e sov and sov related structures in nullsec, will be in Empire, it will be that much harder to touch anyones income, cause it will most likely be the case that your opponent will be right next to you, missioning along as well.

And since no ones income can be touched, even the most braindead(read: carebear)of alliance/corporations can now make it in nullsec. I mean after all with no actual way of cutting into their income and output, they can throw T1 ships at you all day and not feel a thing.

And the current nullsec factions are already more or less used to it anyway (you have to be really damn dense to try and chain in anything less than .75/.8 truesec, and GOOD exploration anything is pretty damn rare and won't support more than a handful of people per constellation), so its business as usual. Aside from sieging R64 and techntium moons (everyone into Revelations now! doubly so with the new cap changes) there won't be anyone losing any ships to mean 'ole people raiding, making everyone happy.

I've figured it out! CCP's master plan! BWAHAHA!



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