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Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.18 01:06:00 - [3481]
 

I wish I had a private dyspro moon. Cept my alliance takes them all.

Shame.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 01:11:00 - [3482]
 

Quote:

You want as much isk as me- work as hard as me.
Get off your ass you lazy hippies



Since you don't seem to shine in comprehension: we are already farming L4s. So you can put your "work as hard as me" where the sun does not shine. Plus if you call farming L4 "work", then you don't want to ever put your nose out of your house.

Once again in your failmassive mindset, you just don't get that what you say is *already* here and done. And then, what's the point of an expansion just changing zero? A nice colored .JPG?

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.18 03:27:00 - [3483]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 23:05:55
Originally by: Cearain

The pvp'ers that want to fight in a 0.0 environment are already there. The others prefer to live in empire or low sec where they dont have to join big fleets and can avoid bubbles or whatever. The purpose of bringing isk grinders to 0.0 is to get people to actually LIVE there. Not just keep it as a pvp battleground where you fight over r64's like it is now.


There are allot of pvpers who would like to go into null sec and fight in large fleets but are not interested in facing/joining ridiculously large capital fleets. If null sec wasnít the source of infinite resources for those in it there wouldnít be these massive capital fleets and more would come. Right now the gap between what large null sec alliances can make and what others in the game can make is huge. If that gap were narrowed then we wouldnít have these large cap fleets.

I agree that null sec has to have something worth fighting for. That is the problem with FW Ė it doesnít provide anything worth fighting for so people often just run unless there is an easy gank which is no fun.

I donít really care if people like having these large capital fleet gangs. Thatís fine with me. But I and many others would also like a format in eve to fight in regular ships *for* something. *Something* worth forcing a fight. Null sec is a possible route but if the rewards for it are so huge it will immediately ramp up to capital ships, then no thanks. Perhaps wormholes will be another route. I donít know but Iím sure there are others who would like to fight in regular ships for something worth fighting for. If null sec continues to be an infinite gold mine that can kick out capital ships like frigates Iím not sure how those players will ever get their wishes.

Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.18 05:10:00 - [3484]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Gramtar
Since we've gone almost two weeks without answers to our basic concerns (risk vs reward out of balance between lev 4 mission running in highsec and comparable pve activities aka ratting in 0.0),



I'm not sure what you mean by balance here. Anyone can get their sec status high enough to run level 4 high sec missions. Its not an ďimbalanceĒ against any type of character or faction. If you think running level 4 missions is so great then get a jump clone in high sec and go to it. Donít be bothered with the paltry sums you can make in null sec.

Is trading unbalanced because people make billions per hour trading with little risk? Does trading need to be nerfed?

It seems that the only thing we hear about in null sec is this or that capital ship battle where ungodly amounts of isk are blown up. If there is that much isk that can be lost at the blink of an eye then the current mechanics of isk making in null sec would seem to be a good deal better than many in this thread would have us believe. If big alliances in null sec did have to earn isk by running level 4 missions, like just about everyone else in eve, then maybe null sec would be more fun. [/b]



Most money spent in 0.0 IS earnt in high sec. It's much easier to earn money there which currently is then spent in 0.0 for fun.

torN Deception
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.18 05:28:00 - [3485]
 

The long and short of it is that the only way to really incentivize 0.0 is to either significantly nerf L4 empire income, which CCP isn't bold enough to do, or to significantly increase 0.0 income, which CCP isn't willing to do.

If CCP were serious about really changing things, these new upgrades would do things like double rat bounties, or spawn special +50% ore varieties. As it is, they don't seem to even come close, but it's hard to be very precise when CCP seems dead-set against letting anyone do any actual testing on the test server.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.18 05:29:00 - [3486]
 

Edited by: Future Mutant on 18/11/2009 05:29:44
Originally by: Pointfive

Leve 4 missions are the hand out and you know it. Afking to earn better isk than the people actually risking themselves is a hand out. You are crying people are asking to get rewarded for their work. So you sti here crying, because your safe little magic risk free isk bubble is being questioned. Get a grip future mutant, present idiot.

I am in a large alliance and you knwo how much magic moon isk money ive seen this month? 15 million for a ship loss in one of the few ops that was covered. I still lost 20 million dollars from the ship loss. Yes a ship loss, those happen outside of empire.


CHECK IT OUT! BOB called me an idiot!
No its cool- not like my alliance was disbanded because i didnt know basic game mechanics or anything Shocked

You rich null sec corps want nothing to do with empire dwellers. The only use you see is to shoot at them. If you actually TRIED TO RECRUIT you would see that the taxes they bring in pays for your upgrades. As for the moon goo income not being used to fund your pvp- what can i say- your alliance sucks. Hows it feel to be a meatshield for no pay?

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.18 05:33:00 - [3487]
 

The only money I earn in high-sec is from datacores.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.18 06:17:00 - [3488]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/11/2009 06:21:48
It is true, some people are perfectly content to farm level 4's in high sec, and no amount of incentive or opportunity will make them leave. This is fine.

It is also true that many people in 0.0 currently earn their income with alts in Empire farming those self same level 4's. Both because it is easier than to find a secluded system in 0.0 to earn their isk in, and because they have the opportunity to log in to their 0.0 character whenever they wish. This is also fine.

However...

If a 0.0 native can earn the same income without leaving his home system the incentive to split hims time between Empire and 0.0 is significantly lessened. Especially since in doing so he actually helps his alliance mates maintain the upgrades that concentrate that wealth literally at their fingertips.

If 0.0 entities begin to concentrate in their more profitable core Sov systems, and withdraw their Sov and a fair amount of their physical presence (due again to wealth being concentrated in their core systems) from outlying areas, this opens up opportunity. This "concentration of population" effect is simply human nature.

The large number of Empire folk who do not wish to do level 4's for eternity (or currently earn their money by other, often more social means) will do their best to fill the void, and smart 0.0 entities will take full advantage of the treaty system which will be released shortly after Dominion to harness that manpower to develop those abandoned systems and provide yet another revenue stream. Believe it or not, most Empire folk (aside from mission runners) do consider null sec to be more profitable and challenging than high sec.

The equally large number of more aggressive folk who have become displaced from 0.0 due to the fortunes of war, or disgust with the current stagnant political climate there, will be drawn to those area's for different reasons. Financial infrastructures will indeed be both more concentrated and more vulnerable to disruption from smaller entities.

There will be many attempts made. Many will be crushed, some will succeed. Either way, the 0.0 landscape is going to start changing.

The Time line:

First the map will change, probably dramatically, as people make hard choices on which systems they can afford to hold Sov on. The population will not change as much at that time as power is projected without Sov, out of habit if nothing else. Attempts will be made to fill in the gaps on the map, but all but the most organized (read former 0.0 entities) will be repulsed.

Then Sov will begin to mature in key area's, and the population will begin to shift towards those area's as they become more lucrative. Some area's will become abandoned by current residents, others will again try to fill the void. This time a few more will succeed, mostly the more aggressive groups.

Then Treaties will be introduced. Intelligent entities will recognize the potential revenue they represent. Revenue generated from area's that have become useless to them. More new population will arrive, either content with exploring 0.0 for the first time or ecstatic at having a base of operations to vent old grudges from. Some will die of natural causes, some will be assassinated, some will thrive.

Eventually those new residents will develop those area's, and their own populations, to the point of being considered full fledged residents of 0.0... and the space itself will be able to sustain much higher levels of population than it currently does.

Then planetary interaction will be introduced, providing yet another revenue stream for the individual, followed by DUST which will provide yet another level of conflict, so on and so forth.

This is what the whole system is designed to accomplish. Change is coming whether you like it or not. I rather hate the over used phrase "adapt or die", but in this case it is highly accurate.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:43:00 - [3489]
 

Quote:

If null sec wasnít the source of infinite resources for those in it there wouldnít be these massive capital fleets and more would come. Right now the gap between what large null sec alliances can make and what others in the game can make is huge. If that gap were narrowed then we wouldnít have these large cap fleets.



Do you believe the day past Dominion's release this will happen? Or 1 year after it?


One of the things this patch does not manage, is the current situation.
We are not starting some patch on SiSi, but on a server where the huge alliances are here to stay (regardless of colored dots or lack thereof on a map).
Moreover between the *years long* mongoo dupe exploit and the accrued money in years and years, it won't take a short time to suck those alliances coffers dry, expecially if the scenario steps down off the expensive huge feet battles and will consists more of "cheap" smaller ships.


- Those who farmed titans won't magically lose them. Your new 0.0 alliance will still be farmed exactly like today.

- Those who took foothold of the few worthwhile areas won't magincally lose them.

- You actually have two enemies: these older alliances with their huge reserves and a meager new system where YOU get drained of YOUR vital money in ISK sinks, not them.

Because GS, Atlas etc. won't flinch for some billions, YOU will do.
Because GS, Atlas etc. will happily freight those > 120k m3 new 0.0 items protected with their fleet of 500, YOU will not.

Also, in addition to the above:

Quote:

I donít know but Iím sure there are others who would like to fight in regular ships for something worth fighting for. If null sec continues to be an infinite gold mine that can kick out capital ships like frigates Iím not sure how those players will ever get their wishes.



You won't fight in regular ships in 0.0, period. You can't go in with a frig or cruiser and expect to have a sparring, because all you'll get is to be bubbled and owned till you quit. You might be lucky some times, expecially in NPC 0.0, but that's where it ends.

Moreover those "infinite gold mines" you talk about don't even get in the alliance pilots.
The best you can hope for is a corp / alliance insurance where FIRST you buy stuff from them (including dreads, carriers...) and THEN, if you lose it with a series of restrictions (ie being in corp fleet, with precise corp fitting and rigs), you will be partially refunded.

Now, we could do this insurance without even being in 0.0, so 0.0 is not the source.

Guess where all that infinite gold came from? From farming hi sec and low sec L4s, not from the moons we didn't have.

Quote:

You rich null sec corps want nothing to do with empire dwellers. The only use you see is to shoot at them. If you actually TRIED TO RECRUIT you would see that the taxes they bring in pays for your upgrades.



False. You can easily come and join our corp with Cynosural Field Theory trained to level 1 and a frigate, recruitment is permanently open.

http://dark-rising.co.uk/Dark/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8

Will you do it? No, because then you'll have actually to put your money where the mouth is.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:53:00 - [3490]
 

Quote:

If a 0.0 native can earn the same income without leaving his home system the incentive to split hims time between Empire and 0.0 is significantly lessened.



What's wrong at having lessened time spent in hi sec? 0.0 is another dimension, including agents (in NPC 0.0) having you mission *against* the Empire.
EvE should be about choices, not about having 2 accounts, 1 stuck in hi sec.


Quote:

Believe it or not, most Empire folk (aside from mission runners) do consider null sec to be more profitable and challenging than high sec.



Then if it's so godly why aren't them going to null sec? I first went there in a 10 men corp, so what's their excuse not to?


Quote:

Then Treaties will be introduced. Intelligent entities will recognize the potential revenue they represent. Revenue generated from area's that have become useless to them.



This assumes the intelligent entities can cope without Sov protection and could give land behind their protection choke points to potential disruption corps.
This also assume that someone will bother going there so that those intelligent entities can impose them a treaty.

Now, I don't see a reason to go in that "useless" space as you call it to be further taxed. Not when a WH will give *at least as good* minerals as an *expanded* 0.0 system, much more protection, no displacement gates, POS innate protection and much more.


Quote:

Change is coming whether you like it or not. I rather hate the over used phrase "adapt or die", but in this case it is highly accurate.



Only thing: those who will die are probably those this expansion was aimed to be for.
I don't see Goons or AAA going down. They have the easiest life at adapting, they can selectively downsize leaving out the discards systems.

The new guys instead, have to start from zero and don't get first dibs at the good systems. They are supposed to somehow grab lands from current owners *and* live in complete utter garbage space until they upgrade it, aka be in the worst adverse situation. Of course the former holders will just watch these newcomers improve their system 1 jump away (in case the newcomers are so stupid not to see the inevitable outcome that is) and NEVER do anything, right?

SeerinDarkness
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:24:00 - [3491]
 

Realisticly,for eve that is,this is possably the worst thought out patch/expansion i have ever seen produced for EVE. Personally i am reminded of the scrap dealer on tatooiene "What you alliance think your some kind of Jedi waving your economics around like that..mind triks dont work on CCP onnnly money!".
However i know perosnaly of at least half a dosen people who are letting multipal accounts lapse over this, so it seems certian that CCP is going to lose money right off the bat and just before the holidays too.
Whether or not this is a long term decline is yet to be seen. Will CCP reconsider the path they have chosen, Maby. Will we stuck with a horriable piece of thinking that is 180deg from the designe brief, Likely. Does the Dev team really think they can get away with holding up NRDS as a shineing example of what they wish to accomplish and then kick it right in the teeth without repercussions, dam me if im going to allow that to go on by without commenting. I implore whoever is overseing the dev team to take some kind of action on this,because its apparent to me and just about every other major group that holds Sov currently , that the Dev team is only waving around their own e-peen their stick is bigger than ours with the new expansion.
And that folkes is the Short of it after 117 pages is that the dev team only whished to experiment in chaos theroy to see what happens..nothing more nothing less.
Seer


Mack Bane
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:54:00 - [3492]
 

Nerfing lvl4, would not be very wise,because as many here said, 0.0 alliances also have missionrunners in Empire,to generate some additional income.If that is nerfed, they lose this as well.Plus, the Empire residents would run amok,and they still are the majority in this game (70%).If they ragequit,how will you get new targets/meatshields?
I would like it, if the nullsec could get another income source, instead of nerfing, what is here already.

SeerinDarkness
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.18 13:37:00 - [3493]
 

Furthermore the dev team needs to look at and spend some serious thinking time on removing spammers from the game. The constant harrasment of trial accounts spamming adverts needs to be addressed.
There nneeds to be some kind of method to address all this hacking of acounts that has been going on and many of these isk spammer sites need to be held accountable for their action in court period...and accounts that have been hacked need to hvae some kind of method for retrieving peoples accounts and chars that they have spent time and money on for Years! in many cases building up. like leave the local char list but remove the chat so it cannot be spammed.
then the only way to be spammed would be by eve mail...also the 14 day free trial needs to be secured agianst ip ban evasion, or it just needs to end.
All isk sellers ripping off eve and hacking accounts and their owners need to be slapped with huge lawsuits over lost revenue from the playerbase snad dragged thru the legal system period oog.
Seer

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.11.18 13:42:00 - [3494]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
The new guys instead, have to start from zero and don't get first dibs at the good systems. They are supposed to somehow grab lands from current owners *and* live in complete utter garbage space until they upgrade it, aka be in the worst adverse situation. Of course the former holders will just watch these newcomers improve their system 1 jump away (in case the newcomers are so stupid not to see the inevitable outcome that is) and NEVER do anything, right?



Twisted EvilIsn't that the whole point of Dominion?Twisted Evil

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.18 14:40:00 - [3495]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/11/2009 15:17:34
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

If a 0.0 native can earn the same income without leaving his home system the incentive to split hims time between Empire and 0.0 is significantly lessened.



What's wrong at having lessened time spent in hi sec? 0.0 is another dimension, including agents (in NPC 0.0) having you mission *against* the Empire.
EvE should be about choices, not about having 2 accounts, 1 stuck in hi sec.


Quote:

Believe it or not, most Empire folk (aside from mission runners) do consider null sec to be more profitable and challenging than high sec.



Then if it's so godly why aren't them going to null sec? I first went there in a 10 men corp, so what's their excuse not to?


Quote:

Then Treaties will be introduced. Intelligent entities will recognize the potential revenue they represent. Revenue generated from area's that have become useless to them.



This assumes the intelligent entities can cope without Sov protection and could give land behind their protection choke points to potential disruption corps.
This also assume that someone will bother going there so that those intelligent entities can impose them a treaty.

Now, I don't see a reason to go in that "useless" space as you call it to be further taxed. Not when a WH will give *at least as good* minerals as an *expanded* 0.0 system, much more protection, no displacement gates, POS innate protection and much more.


Quote:

Change is coming whether you like it or not. I rather hate the over used phrase "adapt or die", but in this case it is highly accurate.



Only thing: those who will die are probably those this expansion was aimed to be for.
I don't see Goons or AAA going down. They have the easiest life at adapting, they can selectively downsize leaving out the discards systems.

The new guys instead, have to start from zero and don't get first dibs at the good systems. They are supposed to somehow grab lands from current owners *and* live in complete utter garbage space until they upgrade it, aka be in the worst adverse situation. Of course the former holders will just watch these newcomers improve their system 1 jump away (in case the newcomers are so stupid not to see the inevitable outcome that is) and NEVER do anything, right?



You give them books,
and give them books,
and all they do,
is eat the pages.

I won't point out the obvious flaws in your hasty reasoning, you should already know better considering who you are flying with now.

Which, by the way, I notice that IT is positioning itself nicely to do exactly, precisely, what I have outlined above. Wink

Quote:
Of course the former holders will just watch these newcomers improve their system 1 jump away (in case the newcomers are so stupid not to see the inevitable outcome that is) and NEVER do anything, right?


I will take the time to showcase this one, as it encapsulates the philosophy of those who will survive vs. those who won't.

In the unlikely event that the newcomers are 1 jump away from a major entities Sov space, and they are intent on developing that space from nothing into something lucurative, the existing alliance has a simple decision.

A: Crush them, because they can. In which case the system will rapidly revert back to worthless space unless the existing alliance reverses their decision and decides to make the investment in Sov, infrastucture, and manpower to keep the system profitable.

B: Make a treaty with them (under the upcoming system, or informally) that allows them to develop the area as long as they split the profits with the existing alliance. Not only does the "rent" become a new stream of revenue, but the area is developed now and would provide even more upgraded space for the existing alliance members to harvest when they wish.

Smart alliances will thrive.
Stupid ones will suffer, and eventually emo rage disband.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:01:00 - [3496]
 

Quote:

Which, by the way, I notice that IT is positioning itself nicely to do exactly, precisely, what I have outlined above.



I don't know IT too much, but I know my corp and they are going to get something good regardless of what rules are implemented.
They don't need incentives or anything, in fact the point of Dominion would be to entice those that *do* need incentives because as of now they did not budge off high sec.


Quote:

A: Crush them, because they can.

B: Make a treaty with them



C: Crush them, because they are better to.

No one sane of mind are going to let stuff develop right *outside* of their territory.

What I could see as possible is for the newcomers to be steamrolled till they convince the big guys nearby to adsorb them as pet and slap them somewhere nasty *inside* their territory.
But this is a forced subservient role that while being possible, is not really so of a nice perspective for a corp / alliance willing to go in 0.0.


What the expansion should have done, instead, would have been to make it possible for newcomers to effectively cut a little piece of universe for themselves, something like a WH mechanism but expanded to have harvestable moons plus the possibility to hold a "small sov".

As of now, instead, I see many possible new pets and they won't have their own sov, but will have to be in someone else's sov, with no right of self determination.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:09:00 - [3497]
 

Originally by: Aralis

Most money spent in 0.0 IS earnt in high sec. It's much easier to earn money there which currently is then spent in 0.0 for fun.


I think CVA is a different kettle of fish. When I see massive capital ship engagemnts I have to assume most of that isk that is being blown up is being made by some other means than running level 4 missions. I mean if they are just running level 4 missions and buying those cap ships like a high/low seccer would have to do, I will stand corrected. But if they are able to create those fleets due to the resources available in null sec then my point stands.

Actually I think the CVA space is likely closer to what ccp wants the other spaces to look like. And is likely the space that would go to if I go null sec. I might be wrong but I would think providence is above average as far as being populated.



Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:29:00 - [3498]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/11/2009 16:33:34
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Which, by the way, I notice that IT is positioning itself nicely to do exactly, precisely, what I have outlined above.



I don't know IT too much, but I know my corp and they are going to get something good regardless of what rules are implemented.
They don't need incentives or anything, in fact the point of Dominion would be to entice those that *do* need incentives because as of now they did not budge off high sec.


Quote:

A: Crush them, because they can.

B: Make a treaty with them



C: Crush them, because they are better to.

No one sane of mind are going to let stuff develop right *outside* of their territory.

What I could see as possible is for the newcomers to be steamrolled till they convince the big guys nearby to adsorb them as pet and slap them somewhere nasty *inside* their territory.
But this is a forced subservient role that while being possible, is not really so of a nice perspective for a corp / alliance willing to go in 0.0.


What the expansion should have done, instead, would have been to make it possible for newcomers to effectively cut a little piece of universe for themselves, something like a WH mechanism but expanded to have harvestable moons plus the possibility to hold a "small sov".

As of now, instead, I see many possible new pets and they won't have their own sov, but will have to be in someone else's sov, with no right of self determination.



This would be called "Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face".

If an area of space is unsettled near a major 0.0 entity it will be because either

A: The entity did not have the finances to claim SOV and develop that space.
B: The entity did not have the manpower available or willing to spend time there to develop it to the point of profitability.

If a suitable outside (probably smaller and of little threat) entity wants to move into that unused space, develop it out of their own pocket and pay rent along with possibly sharing the resources of the developed area (since they are perpetually renewing) with the main entity.

The whole point of the arrangement is to make money off of the system(s) without having to devote isk/resources/manpower from "your" alliance.

Why would you absorb these new folks into your alliance when you just want to use them as a revenue stream.

They won't be forced to exist "in someone elses SOV" as you put it, the whole point is that "they" are paying for the SOV instead of you. You are meerly profiting from it (profit where there would be none before).

Alliances that insist on doing things as they have always done will suffer.
They may not die right away, but they will not flourish.
Those that can leverage the new system will rapidly outstrip those that can't.

I think you will find your alliance leadership has already recognized this.



Gevic
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:47:00 - [3499]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1


This would be called "Cutting off ones nose to spite ones face".

If an area of space is unsettled near a major 0.0 entity it will be because either

A: The entity did not have the finances to claim SOV and develop that space.
B: The entity did not have the manpower available or willing to spend time there to develop it to the point of profitability.

If a suitable outside (probably smaller and of little threat) entity wants to move into that unused space, develop it out of their own pocket and pay rent along with possibly sharing the resources of the developed area (since they are perpetually renewing) with the main entity.

The whole point of the arrangement is to make money off of the system(s) without having to devote isk/resources/manpower from "your" alliance.

Why would you absorb these new folks into your alliance when you just want to use them as a revenue stream.

They won't be forced to exist "in someone elses SOV" as you put it, the whole point is that "they" are paying for the SOV instead of you. You are meerly profiting from it (profit where there would be none before).

Alliances that insist on doing things as they have always done will suffer.
They may not die right away, but they will not flourish.
Those that can leverage the new system will rapidly outstrip those that can't.

I think you will find your alliance leadership has already recognized this.




Congratulations you've discovered the concept of a buffer/pet alliance. I'm pretty sure a member of the former GBC are well aware of what they are and what they do.

People already stated that this will most likely be the only possible fate of small group trying to enter Dominion, the very thing that a lot people thought it was trying to avoid.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:12:00 - [3500]
 

It needs to also be said that alliance members MUST begin holding it's leadership accountable now for these costs. Nerf of moon goo or not, these top alliances and their leadership can no longer pocket or "skim" off the top. Listen people don't let your leadership attempt to make you guys pay for it all either. That moon goo profit is typically never seen muchless known to 99% of alliance membership. I know as I used to run them. Hold your leadership accountable for these upcoming sov changes and make them show you the numbers. Otherwise I gurantee you all will be paying for it all while the big dogs take advantage of you.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 18:09:00 - [3501]
 

Quote:

They won't be forced to exist "in someone elses SOV" as you put it, the whole point is that "they" are paying for the SOV instead of you. You are meerly profiting from it (profit where there would be none before).



Yes, this is called "being a pet". That is the thing that SUCKS DONKEY NUTS (have been in a 0.0 pet corp before to know that). Since it sucks, it's impopular.
The expansion was meant to change "impopular".

Originally by: Gevic

People already stated that this will most likely be the only possible fate of small group trying to enter Dominion, the very thing that a lot people thought it was trying to avoid.



This

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.18 19:30:00 - [3502]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

A: The entity did not have the finances to claim SOV and develop that space.
B: The entity did not have the manpower available or willing to spend time there to develop it to the point of profitability.


C: Any bonuses for claiming sov aren't worth 6m/day, but the entity is still using that space.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.18 21:04:00 - [3503]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 18/11/2009 21:12:10
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

They won't be forced to exist "in someone elses SOV" as you put it, the whole point is that "they" are paying for the SOV instead of you. You are meerly profiting from it (profit where there would be none before).



Yes, this is called "being a pet". That is the thing that SUCKS DONKEY NUTS (have been in a 0.0 pet corp before to know that). Since it sucks, it's impopular.
The expansion was meant to change "impopular".

Originally by: Gevic

People already stated that this will most likely be the only possible fate of small group trying to enter Dominion, the very thing that a lot people thought it was trying to avoid.



This


Interesting that you think any kind of blue arrangement that involves money exchanging hands means a "master" "pet" relationship. While that relationship will certainly exist post-Dominion, it certainly won't be the only one (in fact, its not the only one now).

However, lets press on with the pet angle so as not to cause you any more confusion.

Pets or not, this does indeed provide incentive to get more people into 0.0, which in fact actually "is" one of the main points to Dominion. Thank you for proving my point.... again....

Consider also that its not uncommon for the "pet" to eventually turn on the master. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but it's always interesting.

I find it amusing to be arguing this with an IT member. Your leadership already knows how they are going to use these mechanics to their advantage. Apparently they haven't clued you in yet.

Quote:
C: Any bonuses for claiming sov aren't worth 6m/day, but the entity is still using that space.



Since apparently you missed all the math in this thread, perhaps you should peruse the new, more detailed thread which shows just how wrong you are.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 23:08:00 - [3504]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/11/2009 23:34:07
Quote:

Pets or not, this does indeed provide incentive to get more people into 0.0, which in fact actually "is" one of the main points to Dominion. Thank you for proving my point.... again....



Yeah, pets or not it has indeed provided for so much incentive to get more people into 0.0. I almost wonder why of this expansion since the success of pets has been so awesome so far.

Also, your > 9 standings vs Empire factions shows me you clue people about stuff but post on a hi sec mission character?

Edit ie with risk to be ganked on whatever costly ship

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.19 06:39:00 - [3505]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/11/2009 23:34:07
Quote:

Pets or not, this does indeed provide incentive to get more people into 0.0, which in fact actually "is" one of the main points to Dominion. Thank you for proving my point.... again....



Yeah, pets or not it has indeed provided for so much incentive to get more people into 0.0. I almost wonder why of this expansion since the success of pets has been so awesome so far.

Also, your > 9 standings vs Empire factions shows me you clue people about stuff but post on a hi sec mission character?

Edit ie with risk to be ganked on whatever costly ship


Actually, employing pets in 0.0 is a time honored tradition, and with raw manpower becoming ever more important I'm sure it can only increase and evolve in the future. If you knew your history, you'd also know that many former "pets" have matured into well recognized entities in their own right.

As to the rest... Laughing

Yes, this is my main. I haven't run missions for a living in over 5 years. I haven't needed to, nor have I had the the time.

You should probably ask around before you are tempted to take a poke at my experience in large null sec organizations over the last 4 or 5 years, particularly in matters of leadership and organization.

You would be better served pointing your browser to the new and more detailed thread on these issues. I think you will find it educational.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.19 08:30:00 - [3506]
 

Quote:

You should probably ask around before you are tempted to take a poke at my experience in large null sec organizations over the last 4 or 5 years, particularly in matters of leadership and organization.



Uh, I don't question experience. You seem to have been on the "sov holder" side of the equation though, so of course you find pets good.

On the other side, despite I am playing just since 2009 I have been resident in many places (including IA space, NPC 0.0 in 4 regions and others) and for multiple "blocks" and every time I or my alts have been there as pets:

- defense was poor, roaming gankers had free reign despite previous arrangements with the holders

- disputes between pets were basically let go, contested moons would be handed to the "most friend" of some sov holder officer and I can't exclude there were subterfuges and money exchanges.

- pets were invariably (in every block, in every place) confined in the worst space (enter our neg truesec space and you'll get podded), no good rats spawns, far away off outposts and so on. But the money they asked for it, was good. Infinite, infinite quarrels for NPCs farming. And lets not get started about prepping the BS spawns because it's pure e-drama.


So, excuse me if I am not overenthusiastic if I am not happily foaming at the mouth at the prospect of getting in Dominion: pets reloaded.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.19 23:49:00 - [3507]
 

Keeping this at the top along with the awful new capital "changes."

Sapegu
Gallente
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2009.11.20 14:06:00 - [3508]
 

My acoorp, and alliance are having a bit of a problem with this: can SOV be taken in a system lower than 0.0?

Bilbo II
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.11.20 17:26:00 - [3509]
 

Originally by: Sapegu
My acoorp, and alliance are having a bit of a problem with this: can SOV be taken in a system lower than 0.0?


If you mean higher than 0,0 such as .1, .2 etc... No

Reno Shinra
Posted - 2009.11.21 22:16:00 - [3510]
 

Reading through the patch notes and ppl comments this patch is equivalent to the film 2012 - Basickly its dooms day. CCP will undo all the good things about eve and give us basickly africa - with no resources and limited way to expand again. small entities will stay small and large entities will grow smaller. eventually it will be the extinction of the eve comunity. and we can all go and play somthing else.

Funny how in all the post i have read not one replay from ccp on this post.


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