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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:41:00 - [3451]
 

Originally by: Vadinho


theyre taking money out of nullsec while increasing the cost to live there thats the problem that the entire problem


so your corp (which is shoveled moon goo income) is now expected to actually pay some of that isk out for infrastructure?

I dont see the problem.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:49:00 - [3452]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
so your corp (which is shoveled moon goo income) is now expected to actually pay some of that isk out for infrastructure?

I dont see the problem.
oh we are fine weve got money to burn

if you had read any given one of the other one hundred and fifteen pages youd note that without things to fight over (which are currently just r64s and nothing else) there wont be the kind of big flashy wars ccp loves to advertise because nobody is going to put a capfleet on the line for anomalies

hope you like the boarders as theyre currently drawn because thats where theyll stay without something to fight for

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:53:00 - [3453]
 

Edited by: Future Mutant on 17/11/2009 21:53:36
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Future Mutant
so your corp (which is shoveled moon goo income) is now expected to actually pay some of that isk out for infrastructure?

I dont see the problem.
oh we are fine weve got money to burn

if you had read any given one of the other one hundred and fifteen pages youd note that without things to fight over (which are currently just r64s and nothing else) there wont be the kind of big flashy wars ccp loves to advertise because nobody is going to put a capfleet on the line for anomalies

hope you like the boarders as theyre currently drawn because thats where theyll stay without something to fight for


Confirming ccp should shovel you isk because otherwise theres nothing to fight for
Arrow

Borders? WTF do i care about borders?

IMA PIWAT

YARRRR!!YAARRR *****ESYARRRR!!


Edit to say- goons confirmed the situation is fine- nothing to see here, move along sir.

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:53:00 - [3454]
 

I have a reasonable question to whomever knows the answer: On the test server I noticed that
the sovereignty information in wormhole space says "Unclaimed". Will system infrastructure extend to
wormhole null sec space, allowing us to anchor FLAGs or is this an intended effect just to emphasize
wormhole space as unknown and uncharted?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:54:00 - [3455]
 

You win Pointfive, you managed to say "I don't get it" in far fewer words than I did.

You are again making the mistaken assumption that all Empire dwellers make their isk by farming level 4 missions. This is a fallacy and you know it, even if you (and others in this thread) don't want to admit it.

Whether you want to believe it or not, many people in Empire are looking at the same numbers I have put in that post.

Then they are looking at the points you have made (over half of which are completely inaccurate by the way.

Then they decide "what the hell, it's a game I'm going to take my shot", along with "if the idiots currently in 0.0 can't figure out how to make a profit in that environment, then by all means let them make an exodus back into Empire".

You should probably start thinking on your own more, and quit mouthing the popular memes the major entities are spouting. They do indeed seem to be trying very hard to convince anyone who will listen that money just can't be made out there in loney old 0.0.

Laughing

Been there, done that. It's not that hard gentlemen, and the fact is the numbers show after Dominion it will get even easier for the average Joe to put isk in his pocket in 0.0 then it ever has been before.

Doesn't really matter what you think though, my final point stands. If current 0.0 entities can't figure out how to manage their space and make it profitable there are a very, very large number of people who can (and will) be quite happy to take their place.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:07:00 - [3456]
 

Quote:
the reason we can part with hundreds of capitals and billions of isk in the blink of an eye is because of r64s (the only worthwhile thing in nullsec) which are getting nerfed past the point of worthwhile profit


Past the point of worthwhile profit... really. Could you point to your source on that information. All the rest of us have heard is that they were being devalued to more reasonable levels, and that other moons (which your alliance will also likely own) will be buffed to level the playing field.

You say they are taking the money out of null sec while increasing the cost to live there... thats the problem, thats the entire problem.

Hmmmmm. Well which is it. When it benefits you, the Goons are very fond of bragging about the ridiculous amount of excess isk they make from their territory.
Now suddenly they are too poor to take a hit of any type to their income, too poor to pay for system sov and upgrades (which easily pay for themselves if you have an active alliance membership)?

Please. Rolling Eyes


SpeakerForTheDad
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:19:00 - [3457]
 

Originally by: Pointfive

1 hostile can still ruin your income.



I have seen this reference several times, but I have not found the explanation of the game mechanism that allows for the *presence* of a single hostile in a system to ruin the income.

How does that work?

molec res
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:23:00 - [3458]
 

Edited by: molec res on 17/11/2009 22:23:36
.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:25:00 - [3459]
 

Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Cearain
I'm not sure what you mean by balance here. Anyone can get their sec status high enough to run level 4 high sec missions. Its not an ďimbalanceĒ against any type of character or faction. If you think running level 4 missions is so great then get a jump clone in high sec and go to it. Donít be bothered with the paltry sums you can make in null sec.
why fight over and pay for space in null sec if you can make more money risk-free cost-free running level 4 missions <--this is the crux of the entire problem have you been paying attention at all

Quote:
Is trading unbalanced because people make billions per hour trading with little risk? Does trading need to be nerfed?
its just as easy to lose your shirt trading as it is to strike it rich so thats not a big deal

Quote:
It seems that the only thing we hear about in null sec is this or that capital ship battle where ungodly amounts of isk are blown up. If there is that much isk that can be lost at the blink of an eye then the current mechanics of isk making in null sec would seem to be a good deal better than many in this thread would have us believe. If big alliances in null sec did have to earn isk by running level 4 missions, like just about everyone else in eve, then maybe null sec would be more fun.

the reason we can part with hundreds of capitals and billions of isk in the blink of an eye is because of r64s (the only worthwhile thing in nullsec) which are getting nerfed past the point of worthwhile profit

theyre taking money out of nullsec while increasing the cost to live there thats the problem that the entire problem



Well if level 4 missions are so great, then go run them. Get a jump clone and go to it. Nothing says that just because you are in big alliance you can not run level 4 missions. This crying about level 4 missions is ridiculous. Just about anyone can do them in eve so if its so great then by all means take advantage of the situation! Its funny that you act almost insulted by the suggestion that you should have to earn isk the same way everyone else in the game does.

Few go into null sec. I think we agree. Why? Because it sucks. Why does it suck? It sucks because the big alliances there have way too much money and resources to crush anything that even thinks twice about it. If r64s get nerfed and big alliances canít make insanely large fleets of titans Iím not gonna start crying.

If some group is going to try to take over a new part of null sec where are they going to get the resources? Well they will need to get them in high sec or low sec. Therefore if anyone is ever going to have a shot at dislodging the current alliances the amount of money that can be made in null sec canít be that much larger than what can be made in high and low sec. If we continue to make it so alliances holding territory in null sec make vastly more money than anyone else can possibly make in the game, then we will continue with the same lame situation.

Running level 4 missions is likely the best money that can be made in high and low sec. Therefore it would seem an appropriate ceiling to put on what null sec holders should be making. Allow null sec holders to make allot more and you will just have more of the same lame gridlock.


Oh and no itís not as easy to lose your shirt trading as it is to make money. Not if you can count.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:29:00 - [3460]
 

Originally by: SpeakerForTheDad
Originally by: Pointfive

1 hostile can still ruin your income.



I have seen this reference several times, but I have not found the explanation of the game mechanism that allows for the *presence* of a single hostile in a system to ruin the income.

How does that work?


Apparently some alliances have a rule that when engaged in any non-PVP activity you are forbidden to be in a gang, and that you must perform said PVE activity in a ship that is easily insta-ganked before your gangmates have a hope of responding.

Now since isk making opportunities will be concentrated in their home systems you would think that they would relax this strict "no gang" philosopy as it would make it even easier to respond to a call for help within seconds. But no, apparently that would only serve to draw more targets for the lone cloaker to gank at his leisure.

Kinda makes you wonder how they keep their space doesn't it. Very Happy



Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:37:00 - [3461]
 

Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:39:47
Originally by: Ranger 1

Doesn't really matter what you think though, my final point stands. If current 0.0 entities can't figure out how to manage their space and make it profitable there are a very, very large number of people who can (and will) be quite happy to take their place.



If that was true they would be there already.

Originally by: Cearain

Well if level 4 missions are so great, then go run them. Get a jump clone and go to it. Nothing says that just because you are in big alliance you can not run level 4 missions. This crying about level 4 missions is ridiculous.



Many already do. They have their missionrunner/inventor/trader in empire and their pvp char in 0.0. But the proclaimed purpose of this expansion was to give people a reason to move their isk grinding char to 0.0.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:40:00 - [3462]
 

Originally by: Nobani
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:34:33
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:33:15
Originally by: Cearain
If the idea is to have more smaller alliances in null sec then the costs of upkeep for the second system should be more than the first. The cost of upkeep for the third system should be more than the cost of upkeep for the second etc.


While a good idea in theory, this won't work in practice. In practice you would get "GoonSwarm -- Delve", "GoonSwarm -- Querious", or "GoonSwarm -- OK-FEM", "GoonSwarm B4H", depending on how harsh the multiple system penalties were.

...


If the rules had some requirement that each of these different "goonswarm ____s" had to have different leadership then I think that would be fine. The large alliances would be broken up. There may have to be a rule about alt accounts but I think that would be doable as well. Sooner or later things will fall apart and the in fighting will start.

Look what happened to purple.



All the alliances would function as one alliance except where the game mechanics prevent it. I.e. shared messageboard, shared killboard, shared chat, etc. Actually, the only members of most of the alliances would be POS gunner alts and logistics pilots.


I think making the game mechanics prevent it is a good start. They can of course share killboards and out of game stuff as much as they like. CCP shouldnít care about that. But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If itís the same people then the costs of each system should go up.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:41:00 - [3463]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2009 22:44:21
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Ranger 1

Doesn't really matter what you think though, my final point stands. If current 0.0 entities can't figure out how to manage their space and make it profitable there are a very, very large number of people who can (and will) be quite happy to take their place.



If that was true they would be there already.


Really?

I could have sworn the main impedement to entities forging (or often as not re-forging) a foothold into 0.0 was that all territory was currently claimed by large alliances.

I could also swear that pretty much everyone in this thread is either smiling or screaming over the fact that the current sov sprawl is unsustainable under Dominion.

So yes, your sweeping generality completely misses the point.

If you don't think people are already casting covetous eyes on various sections of 0.0, and that plans are not already in place to "liberate" certain area's, you are going to be in for a rude awakening in December.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:44:00 - [3464]
 

Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:50:01
Originally by: Cearain
But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If it’s the same people then the costs of each system should go up.



You cant control that.

Originally by: Ranger 1

I could also swear that pretty much everyone in this thread is either smiling or screaming over the fact that the current sov sprawl is unsustainable under Dominion.



You dont need sov to claim a system, and with the low value of the upgrades alliances will just not put down a sov marker but will control it anyway. There are only about 110 pages of posts explaining this in this thread. If they cant manage to get into 0.0 now they wont do it after dominion.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:50:00 - [3465]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:39:47
Originally by: Ranger 1

Doesn't really matter what you think though, my final point stands. If current 0.0 entities can't figure out how to manage their space and make it profitable there are a very, very large number of people who can (and will) be quite happy to take their place.



If that was true they would be there already.


No they canít now because of the vast resources the null sec alliances have. If the disparity between their resources and those in high and low sec diminishes in dominion, then we will have that.

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:39:47
Originally by: Cearain

Well if level 4 missions are so great, then go run them. Get a jump clone and go to it. Nothing says that just because you are in big alliance you can not run level 4 missions. This crying about level 4 missions is ridiculous.



Many already do. They have their missionrunner/inventor/trader in empire and their pvp char in 0.0. But the proclaimed purpose of this expansion was to give people a reason to move their isk grinding char to 0.0.


Well if that is the goal thatís fine, but a better goal would be to have more characters venture into null sec Ė not just the isk grinding ones. If you just want isk grinders in null sec then by all means make it more profitable than high and low sec. But if you want allot more pvpers and wars donít make null sec so crazy profitable in comparison to high and low sec.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:55:00 - [3466]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:50:01
Originally by: Cearain
But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If itís the same people then the costs of each system should go up.



You cant control that.




CCP can try. Their trying to do this might be good for the game. They may not be able to stop real money trading either but they can try, and their trying to do that is good for the game.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:58:00 - [3467]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2009 23:03:00
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:50:01
Originally by: Cearain
But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If itís the same people then the costs of each system should go up.



You cant control that.

Originally by: Ranger 1

I could also swear that pretty much everyone in this thread is either smiling or screaming over the fact that the current sov sprawl is unsustainable under Dominion.



You dont need sov to claim a system, and with the low value of the upgrades alliances will just not put down a sov marker but will control it anyway. There are only about 110 pages of posts explaining this in this thread. If they cant manage to get into 0.0 now they wont do it after dominion.




I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.

One fully upgraded anomaly is purported to bring in level 4 mission income, lets use 40mil per hour as a figure to work with.

If your alliance membership can manage to keep 1 anomaly busy 23/7 that is a total of 644 hours in a 28 day (2 fortnights) period.

If your corps charge a standard 10% tax (4 mil per hour) that one anomaly generates 2,576,000,000 isk in that 28 day period... in tax alone.

The other 23,184,000,000 goes into the pockets of your alliance members.

This is 1 anomaly out of the 10 generated by your upgrades.
This does not include any naturally occuring anomalies.
This does not include any escalations.
This does not include any of the other 4 upgradeable income types.
This does not include the normal income generating assets in the system (ratting, moons, Cap ship production, etc.).

Oh yes, those upgrades are totally useless.

Engage your brain and think for yourself, stop mouthing platitudes without actually looking at the numbers.

And I will say this one more time, slowly.
Keep telling yourself that 0.0 alliances have nothing to worry about... that if they keep saying 0.0 will be worthless then everyone will believe it and not start hammering at the cracks which will develop.
You should find December very, very entertaining.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:04:00 - [3468]
 

Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 23:05:55
Originally by: Cearain

No they can’t now because of the vast resources the null sec alliances have. If the disparity between their resources and those in high and low sec diminishes in dominion, then we will have that.


Its not going to change much from the current system. Empire dwellers dont have a real reason to make vast alliances as they do everything solo or in small groups. And the "new alliances" will be mostly made up of the same old pvp'ers with 0.0 experience.

Quote:
Well if that is the goal that’s fine, but a better goal would be to have more characters venture into null sec – not just the isk grinding ones. If you just want isk grinders in null sec then by all means make it more profitable than high and low sec. But if you want allot more pvpers and wars don’t make null sec so crazy profitable in comparison to high and low sec.



The pvp'ers that want to fight in a 0.0 environment are already there. The others prefer to live in empire or low sec where they dont have to join big fleets and can avoid bubbles or whatever. The purpose of bringing isk grinders to 0.0 is to get people to actually LIVE there. Not just keep it as a pvp battleground where you fight over r64's like it is now.

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:50:01
Originally by: Cearain
But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If it’s the same people then the costs of each system should go up.



You cant control that.




CCP can try. Their trying to do this might be good for the game. They may not be able to stop real money trading either but they can try, and their trying to do that is good for the game.


They cant as they cant control what is essentially out of game stuff.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:12:00 - [3469]
 

Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 23:20:00
Originally by: Ranger 1

I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.
bla bla bla



Sorry but thats completely irrelevant as long as i can keep my isk making char in empire and make more and give the same tax to my corp(while avoiding the costs). Looking at it in a purely selfish manner i can keep my isk generating char out of my main corp and make even more isk for my own benefit. I can even do so while on pvp ops because i can be afk in empire and not worry about my ship exploding. Thats a huge boost especially if you got limited playtime.

If i keep my isk making char in empire my alliance can use more isk to make a bigger capfleet instead of paying for upgrades so i can make less isk with my isk generating char.

No "new alliance" is going to vaste time and tons of isk in the hopes of getting sov in a system where they can pay isk to get the same income or less than they had in empire.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:14:00 - [3470]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2009 23:03:00
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Edited by: Shawna Gray on 17/11/2009 22:50:01
Originally by: Cearain
But in game the leadership of the different alliances should be lead by different people if they want the lower costs. If itís the same people then the costs of each system should go up.



You cant control that.

Originally by: Ranger 1

I could also swear that pretty much everyone in this thread is either smiling or screaming over the fact that the current sov sprawl is unsustainable under Dominion.



You dont need sov to claim a system, and with the low value of the upgrades alliances will just not put down a sov marker but will control it anyway. There are only about 110 pages of posts explaining this in this thread. If they cant manage to get into 0.0 now they wont do it after dominion.




I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.

One fully upgraded anomaly is purported to bring in level 4 mission income, lets use 40mil per hour as a figure to work with.

If your alliance membership can manage to keep 1 anomaly busy 23/7 that is a total of 644 hours in a 28 day (2 fortnights) period.

If your corps charge a standard 10% tax (4 mil per hour) that one anomaly generates 2,576,000,000 isk in that 28 day period... in tax alone.

The other 23,184,000,000 goes into the pockets of your alliance members.

This is 1 anomaly out of the 10 generated by your upgrades.
This does not include any naturally occuring anomalies.
This does not include any escalations.
This does not include any of the other 4 upgradeable income types.
This does not include the normal income generating assets in the system (ratting, moons, Cap ship production, etc.).

Oh yes, those upgrades are totally useless.

Engage your brain and think for yourself, stop mouthing platitudes without actually looking at the numbers.

And I will say this one more time, slowly.
Keep telling yourself that 0.0 alliances have nothing to worry about... that if they keep saying 0.0 will be worthless then everyone will believe it and not start hammering at the cracks which will develop.
You should find December very, very entertaining.



Cost is not the issue large alliances will control all the space they want whether or not they claim sov or not. You seem to have a fantasy where all these smalls guys will finally be able to make out it out to 0.0 and challenge the big guys. They could do that now if they wanted, and they do not.

Its all about motivation, having a reason to live in the space. Level four income is not a good reason. No small corps are going to come out and try to fight, take loses and get attacked daily just they can earn level 4 income. Thats pretty silly.

Explain to me why they will be coming out to nullsec to fight? What does this expansion offer them they didnt have before.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:23:00 - [3471]
 

CCP, it should be telling you a lot when the people coming out in unanimous support of this are trolls and mission runners who seem to be bitter and/or ecstatic that the marginalization of 0.0 is possibly going to make their risk-free internet spaceship money worth more so fewer new-ish players will be less able to afford things like CNRs and Golems.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:41:00 - [3472]
 

Quote:

This illustrates so many of the points ive tried to make.
Eve is a game- pvp if you want, pve if you want- dont expect to be handed isk. You are not special just because you pvp



You are trying to illustrate points, inside a deep sea suit you are gesticulating to people on Mars about what space is meant to be dealt with.

In the mean time, anyone with an IQ above a squirrel can see how an expansion meant to move people to 0.0 is redundant if all it creates are these nice "if you don't like 0.0 go to mission in empire".

Point is, the 0.0. are already farming L4s in empire, they are already jump cloning, they are already doing what is illustrated as "if you don't like it do that".


So WTF is going to change in the end? Nothing? So WTF is this patch about? Only about introducing some hugenormous block to freight for 60 jumps in 0.0 to claim a sov that is not needed?

Aram Yong
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:49:00 - [3473]
 

Interesting points on all sides. Still not sure what to make of it. Will have to see how the patch goes.

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.17 23:51:00 - [3474]
 

It's really not just a matter of money either, because if fresh fish can make enough money to account for the risks over level 4's, then the big fish in the sea are going to be able to pump so much isk into the game that the economy is liable to crash.

What new alliances need to have a chance at is very simply survival... They have to be able to take and hold a system in a reasonable way despite the odds being astronomically stacked against them, OR, the bigger fish need to see an incentive to letting the little guy stay because it benefits them in X, Y, or Z ways. And why in gods name doesn't the cost of holding systems SCALE UP with how ever many you hold? isn't that one of the major points of this whole thing was to diminish the ability to hold mass area's of unused space?

Force those big alliances to see an advantage in splitting up in order to hold what they currently have, thats right! It makes for much more interesting drama's that way when fragmented groups slowly begin to develop their own corp cultures and you will inevitably have people turning against one another etc.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:07:00 - [3475]
 

Originally by: ep1k
What does this expansion offer them they didnt have before.


A chance to kill you.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:14:00 - [3476]
 

I think the answer this whole massive whine thread was summed up by one of my ex-alliance mates the best.

If the large alliances truly thought that level 4's were so much more profitable and easier to run they'd be running them! They just want more meat shields/targets in their 0.0 space so they whine about how unprofitable 0.0 is.

Honestly if anyone from -a- Goons or anyone else i see on the big map wants to trade me their place in 0.0 for mine in Auvergene just eve mail me. I'll even throw in my list of salvage thieves and my Paladin (though i bet you could just buy one yourself)

Also has anyone actually run the numbers for sov lately? for a fully loaded system IE one with a cyno jammer and jump bridge it costs 43.5 million isk a day.

That means if the system has 5 active people in it at any given time they only need to give the corp 8.7 million a day to keep the system going. and if you cant have 5 people in the system at any given time do you really need that system?

TL;DR

If level 4's are so profitable, shut the heck up and go run them

Sov is not that expensive if you use the system correctly.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:40:00 - [3477]
 

Quote:

If the large alliances truly thought that level 4's were so much more profitable and easier to run they'd be running them!



They run them. Now, while I am new-ish to the game so I am not bothered yet, I know corp mates that along with many others are asking to *change* the fact they have to run L4s in empire. Because you are just stating that you want the status quo, that is everything stays as of today and everyone has to have 2 accounts to farm L4 in hi sec.

Why, if EvE is a sandbox game, someone has to be forced a path?

Actually EvE is worse than WoW in this. In WoW once you are done with the tutorials, you are thrown in increasingly hostile territory like in most other games.

In EvE, once you are done with the tutorial you... stay in the starting territory and get the best deals with the least downsides.

Everyone even 0.0 players (ie not the directors that can milk the moons *and this cannot change in Dominion (no change in the privileges system afaik)) have to be forced and farm L4s.

This is a false sandbox.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:46:00 - [3478]
 

Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 18/11/2009 00:46:40
Originally by: Kalexander
It's really not just a matter of money either, because if fresh fish can make enough money to account for the risks over level 4's, then the big fish in the sea are going to be able to pump so much isk into the game that the economy is liable to crash.

Yes, except that the lifetime L4 runner with billions pretty much lets it stagnate on the whole. They buy a CNR, fit it with faction, deadspace, and/or officer gear and do nothing but hoard until they get the spark that it might be fun to use their giant pile of isk to annoy others. Some go blinged-out lowsec ganking route with T3 cruisers, carriers, etc - but on the whole most of them still never really *lose* significant amounts of isk. The only time they're ever put in a position where they can lose a massive chunk is when they find themselves on the other end of a suicide BS gang or don't escape in time to be ambushed when pirating.

The thought of the *average* 0.0 schmo earning on the same pale as them threatens the worth of their money, so they go nuts whenever someone suggests that someone else should make more than them, risk be damned from the equation. That's why some in this thread are busy trying to paint 0.0 denizens as spoiled. So it becomes a case of trying to equate *alliance* wealth with the average 0.0 alliance member, by trying to sell falsitudes like "they get free ships" when the most you ever get is subsidies for loss when you use a regimented fit which aren't meant to reward the person flying them but rather give them incentive to show up and risk the marginal loss in isk and *larger* cost in earning time to become engaged in a protracted conflict.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:51:00 - [3479]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 18/11/2009 00:46:40
Originally by: Kalexander
It's really not just a matter of money either, because if fresh fish can make enough money to account for the risks over level 4's, then the big fish in the sea are going to be able to pump so much isk into the game that the economy is liable to crash.

Yes, except that the lifetime L4 runner with billions pretty much lets it stagnate on the whole. They buy a CNR, fit it with faction, deadspace, and/or officer gear and do nothing but hoard until they get the spark that it might be fun to use their giant pile of isk to annoy others. Some go blinged-out lowsec ganking route with T3 cruisers, carriers, etc - but on the whole most of them still never really *lose* significant amounts of isk. The only time they're ever put in a position where they can lose a massive chunk is when they find themselves on the other end of a suicide BS gang or don't escape in time to be ambushed when pirating.

The thought of the *average* 0.0 schmo earning on the same pale as them threatens the worth of their money, so they go nuts whenever someone suggests that someone else should make more than them, risk be damned from the equation. That's why some in this thread are busy trying to paint 0.0 denizens as spoiled. So it becomes a case of trying to equate *alliance* wealth with the average 0.0 alliance member, by trying to sell falsitudes like "they get free ships" when the most you ever get is subsidies for loss when you use a regimented fit which aren't meant to reward the person flying them but rather give them incentive to show up and risk the marginal loss in isk and *larger* cost in earning time to become engaged in a protracted conflict.


Im not just saying your spoiled- though we both know moon gold does now and will after dominion bring in billions per month. Im saying your lazy.

You want as much isk as me- work as hard as me.
Get off your ass you lazy hippies

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.18 00:57:00 - [3480]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 18/11/2009 00:46:40
Originally by: Kalexander
It's really not just a matter of money either, because if fresh fish can make enough money to account for the risks over level 4's, then the big fish in the sea are going to be able to pump so much isk into the game that the economy is liable to crash.

Yes, except that the lifetime L4 runner with billions pretty much lets it stagnate on the whole. They buy a CNR, fit it with faction, deadspace, and/or officer gear and do nothing but hoard until they get the spark that it might be fun to use their giant pile of isk to annoy others. Some go blinged-out lowsec ganking route with T3 cruisers, carriers, etc - but on the whole most of them still never really *lose* significant amounts of isk. The only time they're ever put in a position where they can lose a massive chunk is when they find themselves on the other end of a suicide BS gang or don't escape in time to be ambushed when pirating.

The thought of the *average* 0.0 schmo earning on the same pale as them threatens the worth of their money, so they go nuts whenever someone suggests that someone else should make more than them, risk be damned from the equation. That's why some in this thread are busy trying to paint 0.0 denizens as spoiled. So it becomes a case of trying to equate *alliance* wealth with the average 0.0 alliance member, by trying to sell falsitudes like "they get free ships" when the most you ever get is subsidies for loss when you use a regimented fit which aren't meant to reward the person flying them but rather give them incentive to show up and risk the marginal loss in isk and *larger* cost in earning time to become engaged in a protracted conflict.


Im not just saying your spoiled- though we both know moon gold does now and will after dominion bring in billions per month. Im saying your lazy.

You want as much isk as me- work as hard as me.
Get off your ass you lazy hippies


Leve 4 missions are the hand out and you know it. Afking to earn better isk than the people actually risking themselves is a hand out. You are crying people are asking to get rewarded for their work. So you sti here crying, because your safe little magic risk free isk bubble is being questioned. Get a grip future mutant, present idiot.

I am in a large alliance and you knwo how much magic moon isk money ive seen this month? 15 million for a ship loss in one of the few ops that was covered. I still lost 20 million dollars from the ship loss. Yes a ship loss, those happen outside of empire.


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