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Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.16 16:37:00 - [3421]
 

Originally by: Magnum III


like making sure gorilla warfare is useful like in RL.



I know its hard to see the difference between a soldier and a gorilla, but i hope you dont actually give gorillas guns? Or are gorillas the new terrorists you are hunting?

Avoida
Posted - 2009.11.16 16:38:00 - [3422]
 

Originally by: Magnum III
like making sure gorilla warfare is useful like in RL.



Umm...I think you mean guerilla warfare. Laughing

Xikorita
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.11.16 17:12:00 - [3423]
 

Originally by: Avoida
Originally by: Magnum III
like making sure gorilla warfare is useful like in RL.



Umm...I think you mean guerilla warfare. Laughing


Isn't gorilla warfare a BLOB or multiple titans? It seems like that.

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:15:00 - [3424]
 

We talk about their not being a reward for going down to 0.0. With plenty of people making the correlation with 0.0 being "wild west" and "frontier" like it occurred to me that the biggest solution to injecting life into 0.0 is to simply make a new market dependent on it.

Thats right, CCP needs to fabricate a "gold rush" so to speak, tech 3 modules. In all these systems equally, their needs to be a way to "work the land" to milk these newfound minerals and materials to make tech 3 equipment or something, or some type of newly created high demand "shiny things". Whatever it is, it needs to involve not just ratters and miners, but industrials and everything else.

One could argue, that the tech 2 market is already dependent on null sec and that might be good enough if they completely did away with moon mining and just found a way to equally distribute all that goo out into the far reaches of null where various things you can do in the actual systems gets you the pieces of the relevant ingredients (plexes, ratting, mining etc.). This would prevent power blocks from using their ingenuity to completely dominate over the oil wells (moons), and actually have to commit particular bodies to extracting/working for the adequate amounts through playing the game through any of the number of ways they see fit (this includes PVPers, as they will be in charge of defense and offense ops).

People would be excited again, the entire market in the game will see so much volatility and people would laugh, and cry at the same time as old fortunes are lost, but new fortunes could be found! We need a gold rush!

Lolion Reglo
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:22:00 - [3425]
 

Originally by: Niamota Olin
lolian, you know the navy scorp is only from FW lp right...


Well **** i need to change systems them...lmfao.


Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Lolion Reglo
numbers and a variety of people over timezones is practically a requirement for operating out here.... so restart those recruitment drives, you'll need the numbers.




This tbh..
Though so far the major null sec corps have shown zero interest in doing it.
So when they disband, broken and broke- the mechanics cant be blamed. Blame instead their inability to adapt.


So mr level 4 mission runner, master of space politics. How will this patch drive more people out to null sec. They wont come now, so why will they come with this patch? There are plenty of corps that are open to taking people out into nullsec. But as you admit the money is way easier and way safer in empire. So why will they come?


Never said it would. The oath with the current mechanics for the upgrades wont attracth people. which is why im such a proponent for the upgrade of the quality of the things to do out there. All im saying is that those people who want to go out there now regardless of how much there is to be made will enjoy the space opening up, but as for drawing more people beyond that is up to ccp and how they fix the upgrades.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:25:00 - [3426]
 

That new dev blog, or any kind of developer response would be nice right now. I know they are busy screwing other things up and getting yelled at, hut hey this one came first. At least pretend your customer input matters.

Katrinazinski
Posted - 2009.11.16 20:59:00 - [3427]
 

Ah, yes.

Solve the problem with moar taxes, less personal income.

Moar Tax = Moar Grind for fluffeh bunnies in 0.0 space.

Moar tax = good old boys grab all available isk production.
Newer players pay moar tax, or Mutiny = Migration = Emergence.
(Just remember to bring moar whine to go along with patch.)

Ah, yes.

"The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!"

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.16 21:55:00 - [3428]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
That new dev blog, or any kind of developer response would be nice right now. I know they are busy screwing other things up and getting yelled at, hut hey this one came first. At least pretend your customer input matters.

Too late to stop...too invested...we promise to look at it again when we get a chance/after we've seen the results...

There's your dev response.

The Tallman
Posted - 2009.11.17 01:12:00 - [3429]
 

Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 01:21:31
Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 01:20:04
Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 01:14:03
There's constructive criticism and then there's simple questions.

Why is CCP so afraid of letting people make reasonable isk in game?

REASONABLE PERSONAL INCOME IN 0.0 SHOULD BE 30%-50% HIGHER PER HOUR THAN EMPIRE!

If you simply made that increase you would get people out of empire and into 0.0. And it's reasonable considering the time/effort/expense you have to take to hold 0.0 space.

SO....
Why does CCP keep aiming 0.0 income to equal LVL 4's in empire instead improve 0.0? You got to wonder.... Here's another question...

Why does it just so happen that with decent skills most people can rat, mission or mine and make around 20-30 mil per hour? Three totally different professions but very similar income. Hmmm wow how did that happen...

Simple answer:
CCP would rather Nerf personal income from LVL 4's than improve personal/corp 0.0 income. Why?

My guess: CCP is a company, their end goal is to make money. They do that by keeping people in game. The number one thing people do in game is try to make isk. So the longer you spend doing that, the more time you are in game.

So CCP probably feels this is acceptable time vs reward. If you want an internet space ship (battleship) you should spend 8 to 10 hours earning isk to buy it. Similar to one day at work. Until that attitude changes, you won't see much if any improvement in your isk per hour income in 0.0.

In the end, that is CCP's mistake. Instead of rewarding the thrill seekers, they will nerf the cautious.


Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2009.11.17 08:03:00 - [3430]
 

Originally by: The Tallman
Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 01:21:31
There's constructive criticism and then there's simple questions.

Why is CCP so afraid of letting people make reasonable isk in game?

REASONABLE PERSONAL INCOME IN 0.0 SHOULD BE 30%-50% HIGHER PER HOUR THAN EMPIRE!

If you simply made that increase you would get people out of empire and into 0.0. And it's reasonable considering the time/effort/expense you have to take to hold 0.0 space.

SO....
Why does CCP keep aiming 0.0 income to equal LVL 4's in empire instead improve 0.0? You got to wonder.... Here's another question...

Why does it just so happen that with decent skills most people can rat, mission or mine and make around 20-30 mil per hour? Three totally different professions but very similar income. Hmmm wow how did that happen...

Simple answer:
CCP would rather Nerf personal income from LVL 4's than improve personal/corp 0.0 income. Why?

My guess: CCP is a company, their end goal is to make money. They do that by keeping people in game. The number one thing people do in game is try to make isk. So the longer you spend doing that, the more time you are in game.

So CCP probably feels this is acceptable time vs reward. If you want an internet space ship (battleship) you should spend 8 to 10 hours earning isk to buy it. Similar to one day at work. Until that attitude changes, you won't see much if any improvement in your isk per hour income in 0.0.

In the end, that is CCP's mistake. Instead of rewarding the thrill seekers, they will nerf the cautious.




This is what most people have been saying for years and you know what CCP did? They boosted lvl 4 missions. That's why people compare making money in 0.0 with lvl 4 missions. Before the boost two years ago lvl 4's were barely slightly better than current lvl 3's. Then there was the epic whine from mission runners and instead of CCP telling them to go to 0.0 they drove people to empire and into npc corps.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.17 11:39:00 - [3431]
 

Where does the feeling of entitlement come from? You really think that because you live in null that isk should be shoveled your way?

Everything i hear compares null sec income to lvl 4 missions.
One major flaw in that- and that is you in null do not want to do lvl 4 missions. If you did want to do them- you would be. Or you would do pirate missions or lvl 5's.

The other flaw in the argument is that null sec can be extremely profitable. Just because you would rather be shooting someone then earning isk- does that mean ccp should just hand you isk? Look at a rat get 10 mill? How about a null sec allowance? The idea is ridiculous. If you want isk- work for it. If you want to shoot ships- then by all means shoot ships.

But stop complaining that you dont make more isk then somthing else makes- something that you refuse (or are incapable) of doing.

And stop complaining null sec isnt profitable- it is. Every way to make isk in null makes more isk then its counterpart in hi sec.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.17 12:35:00 - [3432]
 

This is a PvP game, where PvE is completely badly made (unlike IE WoW or other games, where PvE got a lot of focus and "care") and thus uninsteresting.

Now there's the catch: they can't do like you say and "If you want to shoot ships- then by all means shoot ships." because to shoot ships you need to grind the yawnsome PvE.
Now, since it's PvPers and the PvE is yawnsome, they want to get rid off grinding their next ship ASAP.
But wait, those PVEing in hi sec don't lose ships but earn more in hi sec than those who actually lose their ships in 0.0?


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.17 15:07:00 - [3433]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
One major flaw in that- and that is you in null do not want to do lvl 4 missions. If you did want to do them- you would be.
Uhm. You are aware, I hope, that L4s aren't universally available in nullsec?
Quote:
The other flaw in the argument is that null sec can be extremely profitable.
…for a very low amount of people at any given time — the problem Dominion was said to solve.
Quote:
And stop complaining null sec isnt profitable- it is. Every way to make isk in null makes more isk then its counterpart in hi sec.
…for a very low amount of people at any given time — the problem Dominion was said to solve.

Do you really have such a hard time understanding what the problem is?

The Tallman
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:18:00 - [3434]
 

Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 16:23:40
Originally by: Future Mutant
Where does the feeling of entitlement come from? You really think that because you live in null that isk should be shoveled your way?

Everything i hear compares null sec income to lvl 4 missions.
One major flaw in that- and that is you in null do not want to do lvl 4 missions. If you did want to do them- you would be. Or you would do pirate missions or lvl 5's.

The other flaw in the argument is that null sec can be extremely profitable. Just because you would rather be shooting someone then earning isk- does that mean ccp should just hand you isk? Look at a rat get 10 mill? How about a null sec allowance? The idea is ridiculous. If you want isk- work for it. If you want to shoot ships- then by all means shoot ships.

But stop complaining that you dont make more isk then somthing else makes- something that you refuse (or are incapable) of doing.

And stop complaining null sec isnt profitable- it is. Every way to make isk in null makes more isk then its counterpart in hi sec.


Ok, in a nutshell, you want to motivate people you do it with money. Same reason companies give sales bonuses. If CCP's goal is to get people out of empire into 0.0 they need to aim higher than just making the system upgrades (that you have to pay for and defend daily) equal the income you receive from running lvl 4's.

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:41:00 - [3435]
 

Since we've gone almost two weeks without answers to our basic concerns (risk vs reward out of balance between lev 4 mission running in highsec and comparable pve activities aka ratting in 0.0), I feel its safe to assume CCP plans to move ahead with Dominion largely "as is". So, dear readers, here are some sample responses that will probably be similar to what we will get if CCP ever does bother to make a post about it:

a) Thanks for your feedback, but we believe the upgrades we've suggested (or slightly adjusted to make it 3 whole anomalies per system or something similarly ineffective) are a significant improvement to 0.0 income generation. In any case, it was never our intention that the bulk of alliance income come from taxes on ratting and exploration. Alliances will, after all, be able to generate significant revenues via moon mining. Now, they will simply have to work a little bit harder than they did previously.

b) We understand and appreciate the feedback. Our primary goal in releasing Dominion was to foster an extensible environment. It was never our intention to provide a single patch to fix everything we would like and plan to in 0.0. We will be watching how the military and industrial upgrades are utilized over the coming months and be reviewing feedback via the forums and CSM. Rest assured, Dominion is not an end but only a beginning. Many additional features are coming down the pipe.

c) ....

As I've previously noted, this doesn't "level the playing field" in 0.0 by any stretch of the imagination. Those alliances with control over player-pirate hybrid regions (and therefore the best truesec) will be impacted the least - Pandemic Legion/Sons of Tangra in Fountain and GoonSwarm in Delve. Those with defacto control of pirate sov regions will similarly maintain some level of isk generation through corp taxes on bounties and mission rewards - Stain Empire, Sys-K, and others in Stain and Northern Coalition residents of Venal. The only big question is which large alliance(s) will move to effectively take over Curse - my guess is AAA/AAA Citizens and Atlas since they're the closest.

There are big losers under current plans to make it cost prohibitive to run long logistics chains deep into 0.0. These include Red Overlord and Atlas in the southeast, with AAA and pets/renters similarly effected in their Tenerifis holdings. Tau Ceti Federation could be in the same boat at the opposite end of the map, Deklein.

There are bigger losers, still, though. Without a way to improve effective truesec for ratting, CVA occupies one of the least valuable regions in the game, Providence. CVA could see some small benefit from addition of anomalies, but with their NRDS policy, and expected loss of safe supercapital production, the results will still be a net negative. More importantly, the viability of "upgrades" being on a per system instead of per-constellation basis insure that the effects will be easy to counter with just one hostile cloaker.

Worse off still are the Drone regions. Solar and xDeath occupy a number of regions where rats have no bounties. Anomalies provides exactly no addition to either of these alliances, since both members and renters can export all their loot (alloys) to empire for easy 100%, tax free refines.

0.0 residents deserve an answer to the basic question:

YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:13:00 - [3436]
 

To add to my previous post, I'd like to point out how CCP's plans will actually make it harder for empire residents to make a move into 0.0.

With successive speed nerfs (first to Battleship hulls, and then across the board to all ship, modules, and implants) running missions for Angels and Serpentis is less valuable now than at any time in EVE's history. The same and other nerfs negatively impacted the value of various faction loot that drops from Domination spawns (10mn MWD, Webs, and Gyrostabilizers). The best thing about Curse, now, is its proximity to highsec. Even in that regard, the overall number of jumps to the nearest trade hubs, it's inferior to Delve (which can get closer to Amarr through three jump bridges in Querious than Doril is to Rens or Jita).

I advised many a new player to EVE, desiring to experience 0.0, to venture into Curse. The reason was simple. Barring times of occupation during East-West conflicts, it was the most empty 0.0 of pirate sov regions. This opened faction/officer hunting up to anyone with the guts to try to make a life there. Compared to other 0.0/empire border regions (Syndicate and Gemanite among them), Doril was historically lightly camped as a 0.0 entry point. Sadly, that is going to change come December. The need for alliances to occupy the best truesec close to empire means someone big is going to move in there.

Curse stands at a crossroads between East and West. Anyone attacking Catch, Detorid, Immensea, Scalding Pass or Wicked Creek could and often did base out of Curse for the duration of an offensive. This meant Curse has always vacillated between being a sleepy 0.0 region to one filled with multiple, large hostile fleets complete with Titans camping popular intersections. Once prized only for its strategic location, planned changes will turn Curse into something else - a place to make isk. AAA, Atlas, and other nearby residents will likely expand into Curse before or after Dominion. It only makes sense.

The change from needing to hold a handful of R64 moons to many, lower moons in the T2 component chain, means a larger presence will be necessary to exploit regions like Curse. This fact alone guarantees it's a question of who, not if anyone, will move into Curse full time.

CCP can avoid this, but rethinking some planned changes, but I fear its too late in the game. They're likely to release Dominion, SWG-NGE style, without regard to the issues we've warned them about for years through feedback on these forums and in the CSM. Releasing Dominion appears to be its own end, much like "health care reform" in the United States looks to be. It's a box to check off on a form - Hey, we fixed 0.0, now on the next thing. While we will see the usual promises (Black Ops BS, etc etc) for future updates and tweaks, nothing will be forthcoming.

Crichet
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:34:00 - [3437]
 

EPIC FAIL

That's all I get when I read the proposed changes to the Sov. I'm not bagging on the whole thing because there is some good things in there. You need to look at the proposed cost and the supposed influx of isk that will be coming in. If you look at the 3 largest Alliances (Goonswarm, Shadow of xXDeathXx and Morsus Mihi) then you are talking about thousands of pilots all working at once to meet the cost of maintaining their systems. There would have to be some DRASTIC changes to the mining, ratting, wormholes and plexes just to make maintaining any number of systems cost effective.

Make it more affordable and you make nullsec more appealing to everybody and you will encourage more traffic thru the area. This will increase commerce and give PvP players something to do besides just trying to grind out isk to pay for everything.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:12:00 - [3438]
 

If the idea is to have more smaller alliances in null sec then the costs of upkeep for the second system should be more than the first. The cost of upkeep for the third system should be more than the cost of upkeep for the second etc.

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:33:00 - [3439]
 

Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:34:33
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:33:15
Originally by: Cearain
If the idea is to have more smaller alliances in null sec then the costs of upkeep for the second system should be more than the first. The cost of upkeep for the third system should be more than the cost of upkeep for the second etc.


While a good idea in theory, this won't work in practice. In practice you would get "GoonSwarm -- Delve", "GoonSwarm -- Querious", or "GoonSwarm -- OK-FEM", "GoonSwarm B4H", depending on how harsh the multiple system penalties were.

Any system which penalizes claiming sov also has the problem of splitting "real" sov, the space an alliance will defend, from "TCU" sov, the space an alliance will claim with TCUs and iHubs. In order to shrink alliance footprints you need to increase the cost of defending space, not just the cost of claiming space. You also need to increase the number of people who can make maximum ISK in each system, or you will get a mass exodus back to Empire, at least for ISK making.

Kalexander
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:34:00 - [3440]
 

Originally by: Gramtar
... Releasing Dominion appears to be its own end, much like "health care reform" in the United States looks to be...


Wait, what?!

ShadowMaiden
Amarr
Atrocity.
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:59:00 - [3441]
 

Originally by: Gramtar


0.0 residents, living there by choice, would like an answer to the basic question:




fixed.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:01:00 - [3442]
 

Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:34:33
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:33:15
Originally by: Cearain
If the idea is to have more smaller alliances in null sec then the costs of upkeep for the second system should be more than the first. The cost of upkeep for the third system should be more than the cost of upkeep for the second etc.


While a good idea in theory, this won't work in practice. In practice you would get "GoonSwarm -- Delve", "GoonSwarm -- Querious", or "GoonSwarm -- OK-FEM", "GoonSwarm B4H", depending on how harsh the multiple system penalties were.

...


If the rules had some requirement that each of these different "goonswarm ____s" had to have different leadership then I think that would be fine. The large alliances would be broken up. There may have to be a rule about alt accounts but I think that would be doable as well. Sooner or later things will fall apart and the in fighting will start.

Look what happened to purple.

Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:11:00 - [3443]
 

Originally by: Kalexander
Originally by: Gramtar
... Releasing Dominion appears to be its own end, much like "health care reform" in the United States looks to be...


Wait, what?!


it's being pushed through for the sake meeting a deadline. No matter how terriable it is.

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:12:00 - [3444]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Nobani
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:34:33
Edited by: Nobani on 17/11/2009 19:33:15
Originally by: Cearain
If the idea is to have more smaller alliances in null sec then the costs of upkeep for the second system should be more than the first. The cost of upkeep for the third system should be more than the cost of upkeep for the second etc.


While a good idea in theory, this won't work in practice. In practice you would get "GoonSwarm -- Delve", "GoonSwarm -- Querious", or "GoonSwarm -- OK-FEM", "GoonSwarm B4H", depending on how harsh the multiple system penalties were.

...


If the rules had some requirement that each of these different "goonswarm ____s" had to have different leadership then I think that would be fine. The large alliances would be broken up. There may have to be a rule about alt accounts but I think that would be doable as well. Sooner or later things will fall apart and the in fighting will start.

Look what happened to purple.



All the alliances would function as one alliance except where the game mechanics prevent it. I.e. shared messageboard, shared killboard, shared chat, etc. Actually, the only members of most of the alliances would be POS gunner alts and logistics pilots.

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:18:00 - [3445]
 

Gramtar is pretty smart and deserves a reply from CCP.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:10:00 - [3446]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2009 21:29:38
I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.

One fully upgraded anomaly is purported to bring in level 4 mission income, lets use 40mil per hour as a figure to work with.

If your alliance membership can manage to keep 1 anomaly busy 23/7 that is a total of 644 hours in a 28 day (2 fortnights) period.

If your corps charge a standard 10% tax (4 mil per hour) that one anomaly generates 2,576,000,000 isk in that 28 day period... in tax alone.

The other 23,184,000,000 goes into the pockets of your alliance members.

This is 1 anomaly out of the 10 generated by your upgrades.
This does not include any naturally occuring anomalies.
This does not include any escalations.
This does not include any of the other 4 upgradeable income types.
This does not include the normal income generating assets in the system (ratting, moons, Cap ship production, etc.).

The above are facts, this part is my interpretation (for better or for worse).

The fee for a fully upgraded system is easily paid (in reality many times over) by any upgrades that you develop in that system "IF" (and this is the cruicial point) you have enough active membership to actually make use of the resources generated. If you do not have enough active members to generate income in that system, it becomes a large drain on your resources and it would be fiscally irresponsible to keep sov in that system.

If I'm not mistaken this was one of the main points to the expansion. To open up some fissures in 0.0. alliance territorial holdings and to give a distinct advantage to alliances with an active membership over AFK empires.

Smaller empire based entities can easily get a start financially in 0.0 under this system, and quickly begin to generate (in taxes alone) more than enough isk to offset the costs of holding SOV (and upgrading) a single system or two. One really should remember than not everyone in Empire runs Level 4 missions. There are thousands of people plying the many other vocations in EVE that would kill (literally) for a chance milk the passive and active revenue streams in Null sec that will be available to them in Dominion. Some of them are newer folk, many of them are people that have become dispossed from one 0.0 entity or another and are meerly looking for a way to get their foot back in the door (or perhaps a little payback). Now whether the current inhabitants will (or can) do anything to stop them is another story entirely.

That addresses rather directly the second major point to Dominion, enabling the newly created fissures in 0.0 sov to be filled by smaller entities.

I have seen a lot of exaggeration in this thread, and a lot of posturing, but the numbers don't lie. The simple fact of the matter is if the current 0.0 entities can't figure out how many systems they can actually utilize, and redefine thier borders and internal layout accordingly, there are plenty of people who can... and will.





Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:10:00 - [3447]
 

Originally by: Gramtar
Since we've gone almost two weeks without answers to our basic concerns (risk vs reward out of balance between lev 4 mission running in highsec and comparable pve activities aka ratting in 0.0), [/b]



I'm not sure what you mean by balance here. Anyone can get their sec status high enough to run level 4 high sec missions. Its not an “imbalance” against any type of character or faction. If you think running level 4 missions is so great then get a jump clone in high sec and go to it. Don’t be bothered with the paltry sums you can make in null sec.

Is trading unbalanced because people make billions per hour trading with little risk? Does trading need to be nerfed?

It seems that the only thing we hear about in null sec is this or that capital ship battle where ungodly amounts of isk are blown up. If there is that much isk that can be lost at the blink of an eye then the current mechanics of isk making in null sec would seem to be a good deal better than many in this thread would have us believe. If big alliances in null sec did have to earn isk by running level 4 missions, like just about everyone else in eve, then maybe null sec would be more fun.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:31:00 - [3448]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
This is a PvP game, where PvE is completely badly made (unlike IE WoW or other games, where PvE got a lot of focus and "care") and thus uninsteresting.

Now there's the catch: they can't do like you say and "If you want to shoot ships- then by all means shoot ships." because to shoot ships you need to grind the yawnsome PvE.
Now, since it's PvPers and the PvE is yawnsome, they want to get rid off grinding their next ship ASAP.
But wait, those PVEing in hi sec don't lose ships but earn more in hi sec than those who actually lose their ships in 0.0?




This illustrates so many of the points ive tried to make.
Eve is a game- pvp if you want, pve if you want- dont expect to be handed isk. You are not special just because you pvp.

Next theyll be wanting a button that deposits 10 billion into each null sec players account.

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:35:00 - [3449]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 17/11/2009 21:20:47
I'm just going to put out some very simple numbers, you can make of it what you will.

One fully upgraded anomaly is purported to bring in level 4 mission income, lets use 40mil per hour as a figure to work with.

If your alliance membership can manage to keep 1 anomaly busy 23/7 that is a total of 644 hours in a 28 day (2 fortnights) period.

If your corps charge a standard 10% tax (4 mil per hour) that one anomaly generates 2,576,000,000 isk in that 28 day period... in tax alone.

The other 23,184,000,000 goes into the pockets of your alliance members.

This is 1 anomaly out of the 10 generated by your upgrades.
This does not include any naturally occuring anomalies.
This does not include any escalations.
This does not include any of the other 4 upgradeable income types.
This does not include the normal income generating assets in the system (ratting, moons, Cap ship production, etc.).

The above are facts, this part is my interpretation (for better or for worse).

The fee for a fully upgraded system is easily paid (in reality many times over) by any upgrades that you develop in that system "IF" (and this is the crucial point) you have enough active membership to actually make use of the resources generated. If you do not have enough active members to generate income in that system, it becomes a large drain on your resources and it would be fiscally irresponsible to keep sov in that system.


Smaller empire based entities can easily get a start financially in 0.0 under this system, and quickly begin to generate (in taxes alone) more than enough isk to offset the costs of holding SOV (and upgrading) a single system or two. One really should remember than not everyone in Empire runs Level 4 missions. There are thousands of people plying the many other vocations in EVE that would kill (literally) for a chance milk the passive and active revenue streams in Null sec that will be available to them in Dominion. Some of them are newer folk, many of them are people that have become dispossed from one 0.0 entity or another and are meerly looking for a way to get their foot back in the door (or perhaps a little payback). Now whether the current inhabitants will (or can) do anything to stop them is another story entirely.

That addresses rather directly the second major point to Dominion, enabling the newly created fissures in 0.0 sov to be filled by smaller entities.

I have seen a lot of exaggeration in this thread, and a lot of posturing, but the numbers don't lie. The simple fact of the matter is if the current 0.0 entities can't figure out how many systems they can actually utilize, and redefine thier borders and internal layout accordingly, there are plenty of people who can... and will.







A whole lot of words to say "i really dont get it". As long as level 4 income is on par or above 0.0 empire, most money will be made there, and most people will not try to go out and live there. Even if space opens up they wont bother. They aren't going to get shot at in order to grind for weeks to get back to making level 4 income. And besides all it takes is a hostile and now you are making level 0 income.

System cons
Your upgrades can be wiped clean in days currently.
1 hostile can still ruin your income.
You will still lose ships
Logistics is still hard, and will be harder
Your items will still cost more to obtain
Your personal income will still be lower than a mission runner
You will be taxed more
You have less access to large markets
You are paying significant chunks of cash to maintain space
You have less realistic chance to fly rare ships, many empire players like flying expensive stuff, cant do that without being suicidal in 0.0

System Pros
You can make level 4 income maybe sometimes

Sign me the hell up bro empire sucks compared to that ****.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:36:00 - [3450]
 

Originally by: Cearain
I'm not sure what you mean by balance here. Anyone can get their sec status high enough to run level 4 high sec missions. Its not an “imbalance” against any type of character or faction. If you think running level 4 missions is so great then get a jump clone in high sec and go to it. Don’t be bothered with the paltry sums you can make in null sec.
why fight over and pay for space in null sec if you can make more money risk-free cost-free running level 4 missions <--this is the crux of the entire problem have you been paying attention at all

Quote:
Is trading unbalanced because people make billions per hour trading with little risk? Does trading need to be nerfed?
its just as easy to lose your shirt trading as it is to strike it rich so thats not a big deal

Quote:
It seems that the only thing we hear about in null sec is this or that capital ship battle where ungodly amounts of isk are blown up. If there is that much isk that can be lost at the blink of an eye then the current mechanics of isk making in null sec would seem to be a good deal better than many in this thread would have us believe. If big alliances in null sec did have to earn isk by running level 4 missions, like just about everyone else in eve, then maybe null sec would be more fun.

the reason we can part with hundreds of capitals and billions of isk in the blink of an eye is because of r64s (the only worthwhile thing in nullsec) which are getting nerfed past the point of worthwhile profit

theyre taking money out of nullsec while increasing the cost to live there thats the problem that the entire problem


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