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Kushmir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:09:00 - [301]
 

This must be an April Fools joke in November.

Anyways this is just going to make bad space even worse, which I guess will cause fights over the few pockets of space that will actually be worth paying for. Hopefully this isn't the full story and just part of the overall 0.0 changes that CCP is working on.

Etrange Phi
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:14:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure


So it's OK, that I spend 2-3 hours a day with industrial tasks, just so you can make another fail attempt to kick eJoke out of CR?


Just because you are miserable doesn't mean it's a good idea to make every one else miserable as well.

Spuzum
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:16:00 - [303]
 

Hey, I have an idea instead of Dominion. Why not just reset sov in all systems to zero. =)

Choon Tolus
Rage For Order
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:19:00 - [304]
 

Originally by: Alyra Logitus
Originally by: Navick


I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong.


I honestly never ever thought I would ever agree with a goon, much less many goons, but there's no denying it.

You're telling me. We just got out of a war with 'em and I find myself on their side of an issue. Usually I'd disagree on principle, but this is just too much suck to ignore. I'd post how i think it can be improved, but many people have already done so.

I'm shocked... and disappointed. CCP always did admirable (if sometimes flawed) work in the past.

CCP: If youall really want to follow your vaunted "Excelence" theme or whatever, get up, HTFU, make something that feels like some effort was put into it, and get back to us. Otherwise I'll go play Dragon Age for a few months and wait for Star Wars: The Old Republic to come out. Or just go join all the other MMOers i work with on WoW (shudder).

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:21:00 - [305]
 

The easiest of many things you need to do to fix this is to move virtually all the sov upkeep costs to the infrastructure hub, as the price for sov without a hub will never ever be worth it.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:21:00 - [306]
 

There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?'

NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU.

Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery.


Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:22:00 - [307]
 

has anyone really asked WHY there is a direct isk bill? ... i mean, who is charging you the rent of the sov hub and wtf does s/he have to do with ruling anything in non-npc sov space?

niroshido
Caldari
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:23:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: adriaans
Originally by: niroshido
BLA






and now, where to you get isk and time to pvp with.. you know, fun stuff... i'd rather not grind for HOURS A DAY just to bloody hold the system, thats not counting all the other costs, like ships for defence etc.

for my alliance it is much more viable to simply ninja in and out as it pleases us and/or grind missions in high sec for funding of pvp....


So you are saying, that you specifically will have to keep sov all by yourself, cause i thought owning sov was an alliance thing, but sov declared for the alliance on a corperate lvl.
I mentioned the total costs for maintaining a single system. at around 370m per week, 5 members ratting for 3 hrs at a rate of 20m ISK an hr 7 days a week would 2.1b ISK per week at a corperate tax rate of 10%, 210m ISK in tax is made per week from 5 members operating at that figure with 10 members, i think u get the idea.
My corp operates at a 10% tax rate, every day i make the isk i need and still can afford ships to go out and pvp with

Scud Maximillion
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:30:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Equinox Daedalus
Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 06/11/2009 22:32:22
Well going off these figures, 1 system with sov, infrastructure hub, cyno jammer and jumpbridges will cost over 2 bil / month

CVA alone has the most outposts per region, so i'd figure just for outposts alone thats probally 35+ bil isk a month

CCP, you can't really be serious.

We go from fighting for something we own to paying for something we own, paying ridiclous amounts of isk, atleast from my general point of view.

What incentive is it to actually keep our space anymore? you say you want to use CVA as an example, but, you actually seem to want to destroy what we have built. You should of left us disbanded, because your doing a real good job of what most other alliances haven't been able to do.

Where is this Mythical isk influx going to come from, to keep providence up and running? We'd be better off moving back to empire. How is 1 or 2 explorions going to INCREASE supstantally the isk generation.


Tragic really.






I think the whole point is for you not to be able to keep your space.

Bravo CCP. This changes has long been needed.


Thorir
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:30:00 - [310]
 

So what should large space holding alliances do?

Surely, not try conquering more space or invade someone - they would get punished.

Shrink, carebear, camp jita 4-4 and then wait to be invaded by 'smaller entities'.

I can't wait - to go back to empire.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:32:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Kanatta Jing
Before you emo quit I'm going to do the unthinkable.

Best guesses are that Technetium is the new Dysprosium and will make about as much per moon.

Now you can wage a horrible brutal war for a few months while waiting for the T2 production chain to be finally fixed and for the system upgrades to be buffed sufficiently.

In the mean time I can has your space right?


stealth geminate boost right here


and yes, i think everyone with a functioning pulse has their eyes on techn moons

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:32:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Deldrac
There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?'

NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU.

Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery.




R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Rolling Eyes

Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ?

1/10 for another poor Troll attempt.


.

Vavrin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:36:00 - [313]
 

Haha, well i guess I will continue to run lvl4s in my alt while my main sites in 0.0 waiting for a fight.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:38:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors?

just a thought...


yes instead of spending isk on ships and blowing them up, lets farm isk for ccp so we can have our name in the corner.

aside from jump bridges, whats the benefit to sov again?

Balcor Mirage
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:39:00 - [315]
 

Ok... the theory of the cost is based on the equivalent of running 5 large towers. But the problem is this: If the towers are not used for sovereignty only, there's no savings. True, the new sov marker replaces the necessity for throwing up and maintaining towers in a far flung 0.0 empire, but does nothing for savings on systems that are already being effectively leveraged by alliances. Thus, the new system is once again designed to favor the large, widespread alliances who do not use their space. I thought the new system was to deter unused space?!?


Killljoy
Gallente
Gatehoppers
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:40:00 - [316]
 

So I have to pay 900 mil a month for the chance to scan down stuff. What the hell. If its an upgrade it should just be there. This isn't a fix just a big ISK sink.

Deldrac
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:42:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Tangonis Galt
Originally by: Deldrac
There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?'

NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU.

Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery.




R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Rolling Eyes

Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ?

1/10 for another poor Troll attempt.
.


Empty quoting people who have no idea how rare all those things except ore are, and no idea how many accounts you have to run to equal level 4 empire income from asteroid mining, and no idea how hard r64s just got nerfed, and no idea how the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats.

Yeah, 50-100 people running 10/10s, shooting officers, and WHing to class 5/6 every day. Jesus ****ing christ. Rolling Eyes

Loco Eve
Out-of-Space
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:46:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: Loco Eve on 07/11/2009 03:59:44
that's a very high lease to pay for a system that you conquered. why should you have to pay such a stupid fee for something you basically own?

edit: forgot this is CCP attempt to sell more PLEXS AND GTC to EVERYONE! so they can afford to get thier own space. CCP you fail hard and we can see right through you.

Gimmickname Goonface
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:46:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it.


This is payback for the threadnoughts.

Niding
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:48:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Deldrac
Originally by: Tangonis Galt
Originally by: Deldrac
There are a lot of empire people ITT saying 'huh, couple of billion a month, what's the big deal?'

NOTE TO HIGHSEC PLAYERS : IN 0.0 WE DON'T HAVE AGENTS ****ING ISK ALL OVER US FOR COMPLETING ENDLESS TRIVIALLY EASY ZERO RISK MISSIONS. PLEASE STFU.

Seriously, I really don't don't how CCP are expecting people to fund a 0.0 nerf when 0.0 is already poor as hell. It is a mystery.




R64's, Officer spawns, ABC ores, 10/10 complexes, access to class 5 and 6 WH space, R64's again...oh yeah 0.0 has no way to earn ISK. Rolling Eyes

Good thing no one actually uses those R64's for anything, right ?

1/10 for another poor Troll attempt.
.


Empty quoting people who have no idea how rare all those things except ore are, and no idea how many accounts you have to run to equal level 4 empire income from asteroid mining, and no idea how hard r64s just got nerfed, and no idea how the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats.

Yeah, 50-100 people running 10/10s, shooting officers, and WHing to class 5/6 every day. Jesus ****ing christ. Rolling Eyes


AND for arguments sake; lets say there are more 10/10 plexes, 5/6 WH space access etc. More yield from these resources means Jita/the market will
be flooded by modules that in the past where rare.
What happens with the price of these modules? Price crash, which will nullify the "promised" boost thru upgrades.

toxicvega
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:49:00 - [321]
 

This has got to be the most ****ing ******ed idea ever to come out of ****ing any game designer. Welcome to SWG MKII. Looks like Perpetuum is going to be the new eve as no one in 0.0 will be able to accomplish anything other than grind to maintain SOV.

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:52:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Deldrac
the whole point of moving to 0.0 is to earn money by defending space from other people not to shoot frigging rats.


Where did you EVER get a wrong idea like that from ? No wonder the upcoming change scares you. When you actually live in 0.0 and learn to make ISK there, you won't be so worried.

.

d4shing
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:55:00 - [323]
 

So I looked at some #s on DOTLAN and here's what I came up with:

Total # of Sov-Claimable Systems: 2192
# held by 10 largest alliances: 1194, or 54%

Total # of Sov-holding alliances: 82
Total # of toons in these alliances: 69,234
Total # of toons in the largest 10 alliances: 23,220, or 33%

Average # of alliance members per system: 103
But, in the 10 largest alliances, they have an average of 20 people per system.

So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does.

It seems pretty obvious to me that devs can't be married to any numbers. They put these up to make current holders think long and hard about what their best systems are, and which ones they don't really care about.

The proper equilibrium, though, will be one where there are a number of systems that nobody cares enough to claim and pay for sovereignty in. The current equilibrium is that sov is way too cheap, every square inch of eve is spoken for, and it's inefficiently allocated. Relatedly, the current mechanism for redistributing it (POS warfare) sucks.

To succeed, they have to price sov such that a large number of holders with a large number of systems decide that they only want 1/2 as much space, give or take. If they initially price it too low, and that doesn't happen, they'll just have to raise it over time. I'm not a community manager or anything, but I bet they'd prefer to take a rip-off-the-bandaid approach, rather than deal with new rounds of whiny posts every time they ratchet up sov price to attain the desired equilibrium. If half the space is unclaimed after a few weeks, then they can slowly lower the price to rejoicing internet posts.


The upgrades do look kinda crappy, though. The goon who posted about how their crappiness reflects underlying problems with the game (arch/hack sites aren't worth much, mining outside of empire has a poor risk/reward tradeoff, etc.) is spot on, imo. Hopefully those can be improved, but everyone should realize that a price for sov that doesn't make everyone scream is sure to be too cheap.

Killljoy
Gallente
Gatehoppers
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:57:00 - [324]
 

So CCPs cure for large sprawling alliance is not to make SOV based of ocupancey or anything like that. Its just making it cost to much. Your all ******ed stop smoking weed.

Da Maddness
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:58:00 - [325]
 

This idea is stupid! Auto payment system is great but the rest is just crap.

if you want more people to experience 0.0 then open up more 0.0 areas of space with no choke points and some valueable minerals to make it worth it.

Don't make 0.0 ****!

Securitas Protector
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:58:00 - [326]
 

CCP:

The cost is fair, but you need to boost the ISK-making ability in a system a lot for it to be so. I'd love to see costs like this with huge rewards. Make plexes spawn quickly, make denser roids, whatever you have to do, but increase the incentive as well as the price. I am a member of one of the small alliances ready to move into 0.0 come dominion.

-sec

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:59:00 - [327]
 

Ok, lets have a though about this.

lets say I decide to rat in UEPO, a systems with decent sec and 7 belts. This system can support 1 ratter after a few ours of chaining, to give ccp the benefit of the doubt, lets just assume it comes with hot spawns. I've been playing this game forever and have pretty much maxes out skills, i can do about 15 mil in bounties and 20 mil in loots in an hour, that means this system will, if fully ratted 24/7, with bring in 360 mil a day (10 bil/month), and lets say a billion a month from a standard moon allocation. Noone mines because there is no refinery and mining is **** anyways (you get more minerals npcing per character).

system costs 2 bil to maintain, the added anomalies are crap and won't get used as is. so in a month, assuming 23/7 belt useage, and a standard ~20% tax, you break even. Of course you will still be running almost as many towers as before for the 3-4 moons you are mining in system and 2 jump bridges and a cynogen/jammer (as now, there will be overlap) So a station system will cost about 3 billion a month to maintain, and bring in about 3 bil in income to pay for it. As far as i can tell thee is really no incentive for good fights, roaming is still lame because there is nothing to increase payer concentration, and there is no incentive for an alliance to turtle op as intended (instead, noone will tick sov on lol), players will spread out more, and a barebones jump bridge/cyno network will connect it all. On top of it, we will need to spend even more time fueling since we lose fuel bonuses.

ccp needs to ask itself, what is the point of even claiming sov? what exactly are the benefits? the losses are pretty clear? Why should we not claim more territory?

Damzan
Invictus Australis
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:02:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Bobby Atlas
CCP, you have lost the plot, truly and utterly ******ed.

Lets rehash a few things
- Instead of actually fixing titans and assigning them a role, CCP replaces it with a poorly conceived "death ray". However, it was received mildly accepted after some player review but then CCP decides to give everyone supercaps on sisi which was a brilliant idea and garnered mountains of invaluable feedback (read: sarcasm Rolling Eyes)... Which resulted in the "death ray" getting nerfed to a useless state of 10 minute rof, making titans all but relegated to a POS ornament - contrary to CCP own stated intentions at fan fest to see titans used on grid but not have an instant "i own grid" button. The expectation that people will use them "because they do 2x the turret damage of a dread" is short sighted at best, considering most titan holding alliances can already field 50-100+ dreads.

- Instead of actually fixing highend passive income, ccp again chooses a poorly conceived solution that redistributes the passive income across more moons. This is but a temporary solution and 0.0 entities will simply start to react / hoard larger quantities of intermediate moons to generate roughly the same relative amount of passive income.

- Instead of actually fixing the long standing issue of poorly distributed and static true sec value of systems, ccp wimps out and decides to not touch the true sec values cause of coding complexities, similar notes are made regarding why belts will not be added to systems. Instead a system is created where by infrastructure must first be planted and upgraded to add an array of cosmic signatures that provide various additional resources. This system as it turns out through testing is not nearly as profitable nor as accommodating to the amount of players as CCP indicated it would be at fan fest, the tie in to sov mechanics, especially the loss of such upgrades when sov is lost in a system, will make upgrades a ******ed and convoluted concept.

- Dominion is supposed to make 0.0 access for smaller entities easier, this could not be further from the truth. To hold 0.0 is now going to be exceedingly cost prohibitive, if a smaller entity wants to break into 0.0 they need to generate large amounts of initial capital before they can even begin the conquest of space. The actual killer on the whole thing will be the critical mass point that makes it nearly impossible for most smaller entities; that is actually having to engage in a sov war to take some 0.0 space, the costs of a war +initial costs of sov claiming will make it so cost prohibitive that most entities are just not going to bother.

- Alliances that are based further out into 0.0 such as branch and omist for instance, are penalized much more than alliances sitting on the border of empire. CCP has been playing this whole "Balance everything" card for the last 2 months with ships, modules and skills but has turned a blind eye to the concept of distance between far out 0.0 regions and empire. For an alliance living in branch or omist, to run a JB network to empire you are talking 10bn+ a month, that is absolutely ******ed and exceedingly unbalanced.

.... I could keep going but i think the point has been made ... dominion is going to be a cluster * inappropriate text removed - CCP Ildoge, well done CCP.


I couldnt have said this any better.

Vadinho
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:03:00 - [329]
 

Originally by: d4shing
So, in response to those people complaining that they'll never cram 100 people into a system, realize that the average sov-holding alliance already does.
dont discount how many of those people are afk at a pos or in station

our capitol system of NOL can easily have over a hundred people in it during peak but almost all of them are in station managing market orders, waiting for an op to start or just spinnng ship

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 04:05:00 - [330]
 

Every single 0.0 dweller in this thread is saying this is a bad idea. There is literally not a single person who thinks this is a good idea. There are some people trolling the 0.0 dwellers but no real debate.



After this dev blog, is there a SINGLE NEW ALLIANCE, just ONE, ANY NEW ALLIANCES who have read this blog and decided to move from empire to 0.0? ANYONE? ANYONE AT ALL?




Nullsec is now JUST. NOT. WORTH. IT. Balance the risk:reward. Look at the Cost:Benefit. There are HUGE COSTS in both time and effort for living in 0.0 and just not a single ****ing tangible benefit to make it worth your time.


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