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gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:20:00 - [3151]
 

Originally by: KeratinBoy
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?


The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.

WhiteSavage
Gallente
Ever Flow
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:21:00 - [3152]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Aralis

Yes it's a sov nerf. No it's not a resource buff.

Please engage brain before posting.


Higher moon goo accessability is not a resource buff?
Insta-respawn anomalies per system is not a resource buff?


Moon goo isk is just being distrubuted more towards R32's etc. My dreads jump drive reaches out just as far as it did b4... so no. And 2 anomolies is not a resource buff lmao. i make more isk from ratting then i do from anomolies...

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:26:00 - [3153]
 

Originally by: ep1k
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:28:00 - [3154]
 

Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: KeratinBoy
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?


The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.


This is an excellent post.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:29:00 - [3155]
 

Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: KeratinBoy
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?


The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.


Pretty much this. Making people pay more and giving them less isnt how you charge up the player base.

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:30:00 - [3156]
 

Originally by: KeratinBoy
You agree we are getting shafted then?



YOU aren't getting shafted, i admitted that CVA is getting shafted. i argue that CVA brought it on themselves though.

Goons are in a great position post expansion with the best space 0.0 has to offer. not to mention you have the member base to actually exploit all that space. so how exactly are YOU getting shafted?

because you can move into a cluster of npc stations, run pirate lvl 4's and continue to exploit all of delve's resources even without strangling it with sov 3...?

or is the loss of the delve subway THAT big of a deal? i admit it was nice having that on hand when pushing back AAA and Kenny but is it THAT important to you?

Paha Soho
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:58:00 - [3157]
 

I think this is a trajedy. I've waited and waited for word to come about how much these upgrades will cost and how much the new sov mechanic will cost and i'm just floored. I live in providence region and have enjoyed what has been built there. I'm sure CVA has a large industrial base to pay the bills and all but how in the name of god is any alliance expected to hold sov over an entire region now? This will ruin 0.0 absolutely and utterly. Look at goonswarm and what they have! How can they possibly maintain it (not that i wouldnt mind seeing them disappear personally)? People say "dont own what you dont use"...well providence is used from corner to corner. Providence has always been a free move region so long as you obey the rules and now ccp is almost forcing CVA to look at that policy and determine how detrimental that could be. This could very well bring the major alliances to their knees and ruin what they have worked so hard to get.

You guys have worked for years at getting ppl into 0.0 sec and now it feels like you are abandoning that goal. Most of the major alliances own a large amount of systems...its what they have been made to do in order to survive. Now that is being used against them and in my opinion ccp just cut their own throats. Alliances such as CVA that roleplay have just been undermined. Their goal is to maintain control of providence for the Amarr empire. But, the amarr empire isnt going to be paying the bills for those systems. Will CVA have to abandon one its most basic principles and relinquish control of some of the region they hold for simple financial issues brought about by the very people who say providence is the example of what ccp wanted 0.0 to be. It seems that ccp says one thing and does another...this is FAIL imho...FAIL.

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:04:00 - [3158]
 

Originally by: Paha Soho
how in the name of god is any alliance expected to hold sov over an entire region now?


they're not.. that's half the reason for the sov change.

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:09:00 - [3159]
 

Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: KeratinBoy
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?


The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.


i like your posting

Professor Dumbledore
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:12:00 - [3160]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
Originally by: KeratinBoy
You agree we are getting shafted then?



YOU aren't getting shafted, i admitted that CVA is getting shafted. i argue that CVA brought it on themselves though.

Goons are in a great position post expansion with the best space 0.0 has to offer. not to mention you have the member base to actually exploit all that space. so how exactly are YOU getting shafted?

because you can move into a cluster of npc stations, run pirate lvl 4's and continue to exploit all of delve's resources even without strangling it with sov 3...?

or is the loss of the delve subway THAT big of a deal? i admit it was nice having that on hand when pushing back AAA and Kenny but is it THAT important to you?


Have you ever seen a picture of the delve subway? i have a hell of a time understanding it with how many intersecting lines and directions is goes.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:21:00 - [3161]
 

Originally by: Cailais
To put it another way, if your goal is to "become rich" then run missions in high sec. If your goal is to become 'infamous / famous' for owning space then go to .0 and fight.

(Incidentally this is why its difficult to attract care bears to .0, its because they understand this fundamental equation and are not interested in 'owning space' as 'being rich' is their own reward.)



It's not that. The issue is that you fight to hold moons currently. The isk of that goes to the pocket of the alliance leaders. Which often goes to supercapitals. You pretty much wont be changing this. Except instead of the isk pretty much going from moon-> alliance leader's pockets. It goes from space/belts/pirates-> corp tax -> outpost tax -> alliance leader's pockets. At least there's somewhere in the chain the people are involved.

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:25:00 - [3162]
 

Originally by: Professor Dumbledore

Have you ever seen a picture of the delve subway? i have a hell of a time understanding it with how many intersecting lines and directions is goes.


i still have a few printouts i annotated on my desk right here.
the ones i have are pretty straight forward.

what i found most annoying was the constant re-connecting, latest list said X links to Y but it actually linked to A, but on the third wednesday after a heavy rainstorm it linked to B which linked to Y. good defense against abuse since goonies have the most public jumpy pswd ever.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:26:00 - [3163]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
Originally by: KeratinBoy
You agree we are getting shafted then?



YOU aren't getting shafted, i admitted that CVA is getting shafted. i argue that CVA brought it on themselves though.

Goons are in a great position post expansion with the best space 0.0 has to offer. not to mention you have the member base to actually exploit all that space. so how exactly are YOU getting shafted?

because you can move into a cluster of npc stations, run pirate lvl 4's and continue to exploit all of delve's resources even without strangling it with sov 3...?

or is the loss of the delve subway THAT big of a deal? i admit it was nice having that on hand when pushing back AAA and Kenny but is it THAT important to you?

We'll almost assuredly retain at least one arm to Empire and probably spend the majority of our time defending it, as will every other 0.0 alliance. They'll be forced to, above little else. AAA went nuts over defending HED *before* this - imagine it after?

Yes, we're not getting shafted nearly as much as Atlas, the Paragon/Esoteria crowd, or the far northern alliances. Delve is one giant 100% coverage blob for one reason - the current Sovereignty system. Sov 3 + jammers = a near hands-off defense system. This won't be the case post-Dominion. We know this now, and we suspected it months ago. Our logistics people, who know the word "grind" far better than any mission-runner, were ecstatic that soon they wouldn't have to keep hundreds of towers in over 150 systems running anymore. They still are since this system, altered or left as-is, means less work for them.

Again, the problems with this patch are:
1. The upgrades/rewards do not befit the risk or over L4s in Empire, and those who live in 0.0 should not be forced to have 2+ accounts to utilize repetitious missions for funding.
2. Holding of space for any reason other than CSAA deployment is meaningless save for "prestige."
3. Far-reaching alliances are at a severe disadvantage and face destruction by attrition by CCP's plans.
4. No further incentive to war past small gang and harassment warfare, which further exacerbates the point raised in #1.

Yeah, it's strange that we're "sticking up for the little guy" here. But the little guys often end up joining with the bigger guys we don't like all that much, and that leads to ~good fights~. L4 missions don't generate press, and even the "exclusive LP rewards" have failed to generate much more attention or support for faction warfare. 0.0 warfare is what gets EVE its press and legitimacy over the endless masses of farm-n-grind MMOs out there. This patch threatens to "normalize" the game, what some of you call a "reset." There's nothing wrong with a reset so long as there's still a reason to regain what was "lost." There isn't right now.

If you think that supporting this patch merely because it hurts someone or something you don't like, you're not assessing the damage it could potentially do to the game *you* pay to enjoy as well. More boring 0.0 means there's less chances for you to do other things when the monotony stick hits you upside the head. So Goon-bash and troll all you like. We've been doing this a while. We were prepared to make concessions - and even wondered what to do should CCP have decided to forego a grace period at all. We were prepared for almost everything - except being told that we really wouldn't have much to fight for when it was done.

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:32:00 - [3164]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Cailais
To put it another way, if your goal is to "become rich" then run missions in high sec. If your goal is to become 'infamous / famous' for owning space then go to .0 and fight.

(Incidentally this is why its difficult to attract care bears to .0, its because they understand this fundamental equation and are not interested in 'owning space' as 'being rich' is their own reward.)



It's not that. The issue is that you fight to hold moons currently. The isk of that goes to the pocket of the alliance leaders. Which often goes to supercapitals. You pretty much wont be changing this. Except instead of the isk pretty much going from moon-> alliance leader's pockets. It goes from space/belts/pirates-> corp tax -> outpost tax -> alliance leader's pockets. At least there's somewhere in the chain the people are involved.


Because POSes fuel themselves, moon goo ships itself to empire and lists itself on the market, right?

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:40:00 - [3165]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
many good points


i agree with most of what you typed, with a few exceptions.

the greatest wars were fought over purely player created drama..
SirTrolle's speeches of total EvE subjugation fuelled a hatred and subsequent vicious war. You as a Goon of all people should know what happened when he said he'd kill you off completely.

all this talk of no more large scale warfare due to lack of R64 importance is misguided.

post-dominion there will be 4 R64 to fight over not 2, as well as 2(?) types of R32's? how about the few sov'ed systems alliances will continue to hold?? talk about a friggin multi-billion isk target ...
i agree that goons will keep parts of the subway running and so will any other alliance worth their logisticians... but with the increased cost and effort of building and maintaining a JB route it increases dramatically in target profile! again just by existing its worth a few billion in upgrades and x days of sov.

just a few points on warfare post dominion as i see it.

about goons standing up for the little guy... well i have a hard time believing EVE's resident scammer alliance.


Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 03:52:00 - [3166]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar
many good points


i agree with most of what you typed, with a few exceptions.

the greatest wars were fought over purely player created drama..
SirTrolle's speeches of total EvE subjugation fuelled a hatred and subsequent vicious war. You as a Goon of all people should know what happened when he said he'd kill you off completely.

all this talk of no more large scale warfare due to lack of R64 importance is misguided.

post-dominion there will be 4 R64 to fight over not 2, as well as 2(?) types of R32's? how about the few sov'ed systems alliances will continue to hold?? talk about a friggin multi-billion isk target ...
i agree that goons will keep parts of the subway running and so will any other alliance worth their logisticians... but with the increased cost and effort of building and maintaining a JB route it increases dramatically in target profile! again just by existing its worth a few billion in upgrades and x days of sov.

just a few points on warfare post dominion as i see it.

about goons standing up for the little guy... well i have a hard time believing EVE's resident scammer alliance.




We stand to gain absolutely nothing from even our enemy alliances abandoning 0.0 space. Even if they all did and we didn't why would we want to take more space under the new mechanics? The entirety of the Eve Universe relies on constant war to keep the economy moving.

And plus we like to be the ones that destroy alliances, instead of watching them die to bad game mechanics.

Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:07:00 - [3167]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
about goons standing up for the little guy... well i have a hard time believing EVE's resident scammer alliance.

Not our fault people don't ask around before falling for it repeatedly.

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:19:00 - [3168]
 

Originally by: gambrinous

The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.


Thats brilliant :)

but... to make it a fairer comparison it would be 7mil per day whether you logged on or not...

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:26:00 - [3169]
 

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L'aeolan
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:39:00 - [3170]
 

Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: KeratinBoy
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?


The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.


+rep

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:45:00 - [3171]
 

Edited by: Sidus Sarmiang on 11/11/2009 04:46:03
Hah, reducing motherships to the same DPS as carriers (except when they have fighter bombers out, in which case they'll have the same DPS as a seiged dreadnaught). It's like CCP decided they've been big enough ******s with the 0.0 changes so now they can move on to screw up other stuff.

Ah well, if all the changes go through, I'll sell everything I own and set up a massive fund for highsec mission runner ganker reimbursement regardless of alliance, so long as a mission runner in a faction battleship was killed.

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:45:00 - [3172]
 

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

Delve is one giant 100% coverage blob for one reason - the current Sovereignty system. Sov 3 + jammers = a near hands-off defense system. This won't be the case post-Dominion.



(Massive Threadnaught is breaking forums quoting....)

Logistics efforts will narrow down to the key systems needed to keep things running, making attacks on those systems both more effective overall, plus eliciting greater response. Single points of failure, and all that.

You will still see a lot of random systems getting sov, simply because they have R64s or R32s (now) in them that make onlining a cynojammer critical. Otherwise, yes, the moons will draw fights simply because relative to the previous system, they can be taken more easily. The larger number of pseudo-profitable moons means there are many more targets... it's dependent on the pockets of a given alliance whether they can cover all of them in their space, at once.

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

Again, the problems with this patch are:
1. The upgrades/rewards do not befit the risk or over L4s in Empire, and those who live in 0.0 should not be forced to have 2+ accounts to utilize repetitious missions for funding.
2. Holding of space for any reason other than CSAA deployment is meaningless save for "prestige."
3. Far-reaching alliances are at a severe disadvantage and face destruction by attrition by CCP's plans.
4. No further incentive to war past small gang and harassment warfare, which further exacerbates the point raised in #1.


Regarding your:

Point #1-- 0.0 now will have repetitious missions, we just call them "guaranteed anomalies", and you don't get LP for them.

Point #2-- Holding space will be done to protect Outposts, moons (see my comment above), and JB networks. Infrastructure development will be done in those systems, and maybe a few around them if the native geography is conducive to use.

Point #3-- Far-reaching (by which I take you mean "expansive") alliances will have to become less-so. I don't by the Atlas argument that they will still only have 15 systems out of 3 regions to use post-Dominion... only if they choose not to upgrade the space at all.

Point #4-- Moons. Otherwise, yeah... the incentive remains the clash of egos, which we must admit has been the driver of EVE's "great wars" since day one. Rolling around looking for a fight may be both harder and easier, to some extent. But, if you find a fight, it's likely to be larger than just ganking a single ship on the gate. Bring yer blob, in other words.

Originally by: Kayl Breinhar

Yeah, it's strange that we're "sticking up for the little guy" here. But the little guys often end up joining with the bigger guys we don't like all that much, and that leads to ~good fights~. L4 missions don't generate press, and even the "exclusive LP rewards" have failed to generate much more attention or support for faction warfare. 0.0 warfare is what gets EVE its press and legitimacy over the endless masses of farm-n-grind MMOs out there. This patch threatens to "normalize" the game, what some of you call a "reset." There's nothing wrong with a reset so long as there's still a reason to regain what was "lost." There isn't right now.


Very astute. Much is made of the Goon's erstwhile goal of "ruining EVE", but on an individual level at least I'm certain they just want people to shoot in fun ways--exactly like the rest of us. Anything that makes that not happen is bad. For all of us.

--Krum

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:53:00 - [3173]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
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Like I have been saying...

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:56:00 - [3174]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Honest Smedley
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Like I have been saying...



27 Triumvirate posts? I would've thought it'd be closer to 19.7.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:59:00 - [3175]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Honest Smedley
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51 - Morsus Mihi
50 - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
32 - Against ALL Authorities
27 - Triumvirate.
24 - Wildly Inappropriate.
22 - Pandemic Legion
21 - Vertigo Coalition


Like I have been saying...



27 Triumvirate posts? I would've thought it'd be closer to 19.7.


Large alliance full of people from a message board. I am shocked they post the most.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:00:00 - [3176]
 

Goons are make vocal and make posts. This, and sports!, at 11

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:02:00 - [3177]
 

Our dream for Dominion was that lucrative upgrades meant people lived in 0.0 instead of running L4 missions. Lucrative 0.0 upgrades means carebears are happy. More people actually living in 0.0 means more targets for combat players. People playing in the 0.0 sandbox means emergent gameplay so the developers are happy.


Unless 0.0 individual player income generation is lucrative and JUST WORTH IT, then you don't have carebears in 0.0. No carebears means no targets. No targets means pvpers leave. No emergent gameplay. Nobody's happy, everything sucks.

It all starts with making 0.0 profitable on the individual level. so there ok i just rehashed exactly what i said to ccp months ago, can we actually move forward now


Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:03:00 - [3178]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
Our dream for Dominion was that lucrative upgrades meant people lived in 0.0 instead of running L4 missions. Lucrative 0.0 upgrades means carebears are happy. More people actually living in 0.0 means more targets for combat players. People playing in the 0.0 sandbox means emergent gameplay so the developers are happy.


Unless 0.0 individual player income generation is lucrative and JUST WORTH IT, then you don't have carebears in 0.0. No carebears means no targets. No targets means pvpers leave. No emergent gameplay. Nobody's happy, everything sucks.

It all starts with making 0.0 profitable on the individual level. so there ok i just rehashed exactly what i said to ccp months ago, can we actually move forward now




And we did, from messing up 0.0 to nerfing motherships.

Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:07:00 - [3179]
 

im expecting a new dev blog that's going to resolve all of this any second now

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 05:14:00 - [3180]
 

Originally by: Zastrow
im expecting a new dev blog that's going to resolve all of this any second now


The Council of Stellar Management ladies and gentleman


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