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Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:13:00 - [3121]
 

Originally by: ep1k
If their goal of growing 0.0 is to be met new goals need to be established.


I would 100% agree with that.

Originally by: ep1k
isk would be a compelling one for many people.


Short term yes - but those that failed to make a lot of ISK or lost assets will just return to Empire. Those that will make a lot of ISK through increasing the rewards are the large alliances that are already established.

The question is then do we want more players and more diversity in .0, or just a bigger Goonswarm?

I guess I can already work out your answer to that?

C.


Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:13:00 - [3122]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.



Yes it's a sov nerf. No it's not a resource buff.

Please engage brain before posting.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:15:00 - [3123]
 

My popcorn is running low. I need more whining from atlas and goons tbh.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:16:00 - [3124]
 

Originally by: Aralis

Yes it's a sov nerf. No it's not a resource buff.

Please engage brain before posting.


Higher moon goo accessability is not a resource buff?
Insta-respawn anomalies per system is not a resource buff?

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:18:00 - [3125]
 

Originally by: Alice Rubidinous


By the way, your "signature" betrays your sense of self-importance. I have no doubt that YOU might try to "put your name on a map".


My sig? Not sure what thats got to do with anything - its from the film 'Sunshine' (pretty good sci-fi film if you've not seen it).

C.


Alice Rubidinous
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:19:00 - [3126]
 

Originally by: Cailais


Well firstly you dont have to go to empire for ISK - its the sensible thing to do if you're saving ISK because you've drastically reduced the risk of losing ISK in the process. In that respect empire will always be the better choice, even if you half'd the value of level 4s tomorrow.

However you can make a decent amount of ISK in .0. Should it be more? Perhaps slightly more but even if you quadrupled the isk value of BS spawns in .0 still most would not come because you're just as likely to lose that amount of ISK in the long term trying to acquire it. Its the equivalent of firing faction ammo at high sec rats in a belt: if you're not careful you spend more on ammo than you make in bounties.

C.





NEVER STOP POSTING! You are so gosh darn smart!!! Tell us more about how risks and rewards work! I mean, in EVE there's no way to hedge against getting ganked in 0.0 space. You have to fly around with uninsured CNRs, just like in empire. Also, you get ganked continuously in 0.0, so it's IMPOSSIBLE to make isk. Even if the rats in 0.0 were worth a billion each, it would NEVER be worth it. EVER.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:20:00 - [3127]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 11/11/2009 01:20:44
Originally by: Cailais
Well firstly you dont have to go to empire for ISK - its the sensible thing to do if you're saving ISK because you've drastically reduced the risk of losing ISK in the process. In that respect empire will always be the better choice, even if you half'd the value of level 4s tomorrow.

Nope.

What you seem to not understand is the people leaving 0.0 to run L4s aren't saving ISK. It's a necessary evil so that they can enjoy their primary gaming activity. They need cash so they can buy new ships to get blown up.

As such, they are going to take the fastest way to make that ISK, because it's not fun. Until activities in 0.0 surpass the ISK/hour of L4s, they're going to be doing L4s so they can get back to the fun part of the game.

(And the ISK/hour calculations they will be making for 0.0 assume losing their ship every so often).

The goal of getting them to stay out in 0.0 is:
1) spread everyone out so we're not all packed in a tiny part of space called "Empire"
2) make people feel like they have a home in 0.0. Not that it's some transitory place they go to just to PvP. That way they'll
3) fight tooth-and-nail to defend the most ass-backward and worthless system in 0.0, because it's their home.

As long as people have to leave 0.0 in order to spend time in 0.0, it will never truly be their home. It'll just be a spot on the map.

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:21:00 - [3128]
 

Economies thrive in stable countries: 1st world countries <-> High Sec
Thugs and warlords thrive in chaos: War Zones <-> Null Sec
Pirates thrive in the **** holes serving as buffers between the two: Somalia <-> Low Sec

Most 0.0 empires today are run like Kim Jong-il is at the helm.
Hopefully Dominion will force most of them to open up a bit out of necessity.

CCP is still controlling your game, and like with the nano-nerf, doing a damn fine job at it.
Evolve or fade away.

rand0mch1ck
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:25:00 - [3129]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Keep the constructive feedback coming and we'll update the original blog monday or tuesday with new figures and updates and additional comments to clear some confusion up.



So its Wednesday, and i see no updated blog, any danger of getting some more / clarified information to digest ? Sad

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:26:00 - [3130]
 

Edited by: Kepakh on 11/11/2009 01:28:08
Originally by: Honest Smedley
CCP is still controlling your game, and like with the nano-nerf, doing a damn fine job at it.


Oh yeah...that's why AF got AB bonus recently on test server, why SB can't do crap anywhere but 0.0, why you needed to wait 6 months to fix ECM rage and why no one is complaining about laser fotm.

You have odd measurements of what is a fine job done.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:27:00 - [3131]
 

Originally by: rand0mch1ck
Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Keep the constructive feedback coming and we'll update the original blog monday or tuesday with new figures and updates and additional comments to clear some confusion up.



So its Wednesday, and i see no updated blog, any danger of getting some more / clarified information to digest ? Sad

Doubtful. When the response to the first information is "YOU IDIOTS! GO BACK AND DO IT AGAIN!!" they either are busy back at the drawing board, or are disinclined to release the parts of the design they left out that are so bad they held 'em back.

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:28:00 - [3132]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Honest Smedley
CCP is still controlling your game, and like with the nano-nerf, doing a damn fine job at it.


Oh yeah...that's why AF got AB bonus recently on test server and why no one is complaining about laser fotm.

You have odd measurements of what is a fine job done.

They're doing well enough to take your money apparently.

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:29:00 - [3133]
 

Originally by: Banlish


Originally by: McDaddy Pimp


CVA wont go bankrupt and we probally will see more CVA-type alliance.


they shat out outposts left and right, maybe they deserve to go bankrupt. "too big to fail" sound familiar?


They shat out outposts in the WORST region of space (seriously even IMMENSEA and PUREBLIND have better resources) and they turned it into a 0.0 mecha for anyone that could abide by the rules. They litterally took a region that has the economics of low sec and turned it into something that most everyone in this game can respect. That isn't 'to big to fail' it's hard work in a crappy place that shouldn't be punished.





i concede the other point but CVA chose their spot. It's self-inflicted pain nothing else.
yes they deserve recognition for what they accomplished BUT that does not entitle them to special treatment.
they over-extended themselves by exploiting a broken sov system and should have realized it wouldn't last when rumors of a sov change started. instead they engaged goonswarm in a race of how many outposts an alliance can dump onto the map.


Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:32:00 - [3134]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
They're doing well enough to take your money apparently.


The fact that people do not vote with their wallet immediately does not make your job well done, it just means you didn't screw that much to make people leave.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:33:00 - [3135]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
Hopefully you have supplementary ways of making money, you know, like moon mining?

CCP seeding R64 moons in providence?

I personally dont even have that much issues with the anomalies, considering belt ratting here in provi is crap. However lets start by dividing the sov costs by 5, and then repost the blog.


As I said, if the costs become an issue, they can always be looked at.


Costs are an issue. Look at them.

Aralis
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:33:00 - [3136]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: ep1k
Originally by: Kepakh


You can make silly ISK in wormholes by sleeper gridning, still the space is dead empty.

Stop doing things the way it doesn't work.


There are several people in this thread saying they currently make good money in wormhole space and wanted to move their corps to 0.0. But the isk income is not enticing enough for them to do it. they want to do something. but wont do something that actually hurts them. People dont want to make less money to take longer to do what they enjoy. so yes, iw oudl say income does alter these peoples positions. You can keep ignoring the point of this expansion all you want, and you will continue to miss the point.

This was supposed to drive people to nullsec, and it wont untill there are increased incentives.


No this was supposed to fix Sov and get rid of afk empires. This is not the patch for the carebears to rise up from Jita and fly into 0.0.


So according to you are there any non afk empires?

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:35:00 - [3137]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask

i concede the other point but CVA chose their spot. It's self-inflicted pain nothing else.
yes they deserve recognition for what they accomplished BUT that does not entitle them to special treatment.
they over-extended themselves by exploiting a broken sov system and should have realized it wouldn't last when rumors of a sov change started. instead they engaged goonswarm in a race of how many outposts an alliance can dump onto the map.



So, the devs stated that this expansion would help smaller alliances in crappier space and chose CVA as their example. Looking at the proposed changes, CVA get surprised without lube. And you see nothing wrong with that disconnect?

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:36:00 - [3138]
 

Edited by: Cailais on 11/11/2009 01:42:05
Originally by: Alice Rubidinous
Originally by: Cailais


Well firstly you dont have to go to empire for ISK - its the sensible thing to do if you're saving ISK because you've drastically reduced the risk of losing ISK in the process. In that respect empire will always be the better choice, even if you half'd the value of level 4s tomorrow.

However you can make a decent amount of ISK in .0. Should it be more? Perhaps slightly more but even if you quadrupled the isk value of BS spawns in .0 still most would not come because you're just as likely to lose that amount of ISK in the long term trying to acquire it. Its the equivalent of firing faction ammo at high sec rats in a belt: if you're not careful you spend more on ammo than you make in bounties.

C.





NEVER STOP POSTING! You are so gosh darn smart!!! Tell us more about how risks and rewards work! I mean, in EVE there's no way to hedge against getting ganked in 0.0 space. You have to fly around with uninsured CNRs, just like in empire. Also, you get ganked continuously in 0.0, so it's IMPOSSIBLE to make isk. Even if the rats in 0.0 were worth a billion each, it would NEVER be worth it. EVER.


/sigh

Ive got to go - work beckons. But sure fine. Have it your way.

But basically if you make sov systems produce more ISK, and cost less to maintain a sov alliance will expand to control more territory.

It will need to spend less time in it's sov sys and will roam further where upon it will squish the fledgling alliances CCP are trying to encourage and we'll all be back right where we started.

C.

edit: quick question - if its possible to hedge against getting ganked in .0, then isn't it just as safe as empire so why should you get more ISK as a reward?

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:38:00 - [3139]
 

My Solution to the ******ED EVE DOMINION PATCH:

Higher levels of Sov allow the hiring of better and better faction mission agents at PLAYER CONTROLLED stations.

For example, if Mostly Harmless has SOV 5 in P-2TTL, we can "hire" a LEVEL 5 Caldari Navy agent and run level 5 missions in P-2TTL nullsec.

There, SOLVED. 0.0 is now less safe than Empire, but the convenience and rewards are finally worth it.

Thank you ISK can be sent to XXXAK.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:39:00 - [3140]
 

Originally by: xxxak
Costs are an issue. Look at them.


Costs look ok. In any case, if they need to be touched, it will be after space upgrades are polished.

Relation upkeep <-> upgrades <-> moons determines how 0.0 will work.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:43:00 - [3141]
 

Imma address a few things im reading. Though since it's at like 100 pages already of bleh. Meh.

Quote:
1)Anomolies - currently considered worthless, and are never run.

This isnt that true if you have ****ty space. Goto cloud ring or providence. I bet you wont find anomalies.

Quote:
2)Grav sites - I believe these have too few minerals to be worth bothering with and nobody in 0.0 uses them.

It's more to the fact that mining is horrendously boring that you lose interest. Add on top of that the local watching and fear of neutrals. Then the logistics of moving that ore to a station where you have good refine. Which doesnt really exist because the best you can get out of a POS is 75% refine. The minnie outposts are rarely upgraded enough to get good refine. So you end up relying on rorquals. Which according to the latest dev blog. Are pretty damn rare.

Quote:
3)Profession sites - now that interfaces are worthless Radar sites are not worth the time to run. With the collapse of the salvage market, neither are mag sites. This will be even worse when the POS market is glutted making faction POS's and pos mods worthless.

They arent bad for goood 0.0. Often you are getting 10/10s in good 0.0. So you cant solo run them. Instead you get the good radars. Which in of themselves have decent rats in them.

Quote:
the only upgrades that are worth a damn are Entrapment (DED complexes are still worth something, though the market will rapidly crash if not done right)

Massive amount of new plexes which are soloable and have no faction spawns or deadspace mods? But good bounty income? Ya could be really good indeed. Will that happen? Very unlikely.

Quote:
and the flux generator (can generate more wormholes to empire for logistics).

That's what gets me. They make it much harder to have jump bridges and such. Which really isnt going to mean much in the larger sense because those with jump bridges can keep the upgrade up anyway. So really wont be that much of a burden to keep the current easy logistics. They then add this and make it even easier to do logistics? I dont get it.

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:47:00 - [3142]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Edited by: Cailais on 11/11/2009 01:42:05
Originally by: Alice Rubidinous
Originally by: Cailais


Well firstly you dont have to go to empire for ISK - its the sensible thing to do if you're saving ISK because you've drastically reduced the risk of losing ISK in the process. In that respect empire will always be the better choice, even if you half'd the value of level 4s tomorrow.

However you can make a decent amount of ISK in .0. Should it be more? Perhaps slightly more but even if you quadrupled the isk value of BS spawns in .0 still most would not come because you're just as likely to lose that amount of ISK in the long term trying to acquire it. Its the equivalent of firing faction ammo at high sec rats in a belt: if you're not careful you spend more on ammo than you make in bounties.

C.





NEVER STOP POSTING! You are so gosh darn smart!!! Tell us more about how risks and rewards work! I mean, in EVE there's no way to hedge against getting ganked in 0.0 space. You have to fly around with uninsured CNRs, just like in empire. Also, you get ganked continuously in 0.0, so it's IMPOSSIBLE to make isk. Even if the rats in 0.0 were worth a billion each, it would NEVER be worth it. EVER.


/sigh

Ive got to go - work beckons. But sure fine. Have it your way.

But basically if you make sov systems produce more ISK, and cost less to maintain a sov alliance will expand to control more territory.

It will need to spend less time in it's sov sys and will roam further where upon it will squish the fledgling alliances CCP are trying to encourage and we'll all be back right where we started.

C.

edit: quick question - if its possible to hedge against getting ganked in .0, then isn't it just as safe as empire so why should you get more ISK as a reward?


BECAUSE IT'S MORE LABOURIOUS ****SAKE STOP COMMENTING ON **** YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT

also you could have chosen one of the less sarcastic posts that correct your thinking /sigh

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:53:00 - [3143]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Shasis
Edited by: Shasis on 07/11/2009 14:38:41
CCP Soundwave, you said in one of your previous posts that with dominion, an upgraded system will be able to feed 10-15 people. Even if CCP said at first 100 people... but ok.

Keep in mind that currently, people from 0.0 sov holding alliances are not farming in the same system. And with the cost of the upgrades, plus fuel for bridges, cyno gen/jam towers, those alliances won't be able to keep the sov in all those systems anymore, and then will have a lot more than 15 people in their upgraded systems at the main timezone of the alliance...

Why not creating an upgrade that will put lvl4 agents in the upgraded outpost systems ? then the 10-15 people is gone...


We cannot currently put level four agents into 0.0 stations owned by players. I completely agree that it would be a very good solution, as they are one of the few non-finite resources, but it's simply not possible at present. I can promie you that it is high on the list of stuff many of us would love to see, though.


What do you mean we "cannot". YOU CODE THE GAME. You can do anything you want. Your jobs depend on this working. This is not a "game" it is your job bro.

Putting Level 4-5 (6?) agents in to player owned stations would solve it ALL. Risk / reward = perfect.

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.11 01:56:00 - [3144]
 

Originally by: KeratinBoy

So, the devs stated that this expansion would help smaller alliances in crappier space and chose CVA as their example. Looking at the proposed changes, CVA get surprised without lube. And you see nothing wrong with that disconnect?


what disconnect? so some dev shot of at the mouth about how he loves CVA... since when is CVA a small alliance?
looking at what we know of the changes CVA is only getting "surprised without lube" because they rely on broken cyno jammers, sov 4 pos invulnerability to defend the crap heap of outposts they built.

The extent of Treaties hasn't even been revealed, it is highly feasible that Treaties will make NRDS the de-facto only way to go in 0.0 by say permitting the taxing of non-alliance pilots.
that alone could finance the 1.6bil / mo for a fully sov'ed, bridged, jammed system for each of their outposts. it may not, the point is WE DON'T KNOW AT THIS TIME HOW SHAFTED THEY ARE!


KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:07:00 - [3145]
 

You agree we are getting shafted then?

Look, every 0.0 holding alliance, irrespective of personal feelings, has stated why the upcoming changes are bad. Paying through the nose for, well, the same experience is something none of us are inclined to do.

What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?

Can you people get it through your heads yet that this is NOT GOOD?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:13:00 - [3146]
 

Originally by: KeratinBoy
You agree we are getting shafted then?

Look, every 0.0 holding alliance, irrespective of personal feelings, has stated why the upcoming changes are bad. Paying through the nose for, well, the same experience is something none of us are inclined to do.

What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?

Can you people get it through your heads yet that this is NOT GOOD?


Don't you see we are all just crying because we cannot adapt.

Adapt or die.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:15:00 - [3147]
 

MS just went from 3 drones per level of carrier to 1 on SISI. **** 0.0 players amirite right?

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:16:00 - [3148]
 

Adapt or die Ed.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:17:00 - [3149]
 

Originally by: Alexander Knott
Adapt or die Ed.


That's a pretty easy adaption.

WTS 1 wyvern

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.11.11 02:19:00 - [3150]
 

Originally by: Boris Petroshevski
Ok so first of all when is CCP going to give a **** and actually respond again. Dont care if you simply say "we are reading your responses" atleast that means you notice your player base.


They are gagged by PR/Marketing dept and there are some people frantically typing some dev blogs which are trying to explain how brilliant their plans actually are. (Ofc I'm being sarcastic now.)

The arguments given by the players are IMHO insightful enough for CCP to rethink this again and have them re-evaluate that they will meet their set goals.


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