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Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:01:00 - [3061]
 

Originally by: ep1k

I never even mentioned ratting. Make the ore a bigger step above veld. Make anomalies not on par with level 4 but double. Give rewards that you want to fight to keep. Make it so making your income has risk and large payoffs. Noone here wants free isk. They want large isk that you die for. Would this cause more pvp? Yes it would. And your statement of wah wah we already make money doing level 4s is just idiotic. Thats the problem. You cant fight someone to hurt their income because its in motsu. You have no reason to take over someones space and gain thier previous rewards, because their rewards are in motsu. Tye high isk gain to owning space. Reduce the space you can control. Then we will have an interesting null sec. I am all for having less space for large alliances.


Ratting, anomalies, roids, w/e is all the same and making it more rewarding does not make anyone who is not already living in 0.0 to live there.

Risk vs Reward is just nonsense. According to this logic you should be paid more for as you expose yourself to higher risk. If that is the case, you are just stupid and deserve to get podded.

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:02:00 - [3062]
 

Non-constructive content removed.Applebabe


Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:02:00 - [3063]
 

Originally by: Renada Trinity
Well I actually read most of this...there are good points, but mostly complaining, sorry my opinion.

(...)

This patch will allow some of that space to free up and let smaller corp/alliances to form in 0.0 space.

Then you didn't read this thread.

Increased Sov costs just means that the big alliances will only officially claim key systems. They will still occupy the same space as they do today. The upgrades are so terrible that they can not reduce their footprint in order to sustain their pilots.

So yes, the blobs on the in-game map will be smaller. The blobs on the map that will be generated out of a thread on CAOD will be exactly the same. And if a little guy tries to move into one of the systems that is unclaimed officially, but claimed in CAOD, they will be crushed like a bug. Because that big alliance is still using that space for ratting, which remains the only reasonable income stream for the individual pilots trying to live full-time in 0.0.

If CCP buffs the anomalies well above what the blues have described in this very thread, then you might see alliances contract. But when those anomalies offer equal income to L4s in Empire, take 100 days to get, and can be completely shut down by parking an afk cloaker in an anomaly so it can't respawn, they are not worth buying.

Quote:
What I see is the upgrade is going to make people have to actually work for once in order to keep thier space.

And you've apparently never tried to live in 0.0.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:04:00 - [3064]
 

Non-constructive content removed.Applebabe


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:05:00 - [3065]
 

Originally by: Renada Trinity
Well I actually read most of this...there are good points, but mostly complaining, sorry my opinion.

Let me tell you, took a trip in my force recon, down thru the middle of delve, past KIA and ZAF, came up around -a- and atlas then into NC space. Well guess what, most of the systems are empty, nothing, not being used!

This patch will allow some of that space to free up and let smaller corp/alliances to form in 0.0 space. Cost, alls I see on these forums CAOD, how all these alliance generated gazillions of isk. Example someone throwing up contract for 10 titans after they lost one. Maybe they nerf the moongoo. What I see is the upgrade is going to make people have to actually work for once in order to keep thier space. Blobs sitting aroud doing nothing doesnt generate tax monies, thats mainly what you see unless there is some fleet battle here or there thru-out the week.

Simple fact is, get up, do some work, earn your space, work your space (to make it better) give up what you dont need, the 50 system buffer zones and stop complaining.

I think CCP has to look at its customer base, and after not being able to expand into 0.0 why play? That is one reason for this patch too.

My $0.02


There is a problem with this. I'll put it in the form of a question. Do you think that removing the color(sovereignty) from those empty areas means that the alliance won't control that space anymore? It is very unlikely they will just give them up without getting something in return. You will still be required to get permission to settle those systems, but with the expansion you actually can grind up more income from them than today.

So there should propably be at least more renters, but that brings up another issue. Since income potential for most players will remain higher in empire and the upkeep is just an ISK bill, why would you try to earn that ISK in 0.0? Some won't care about income and will live there anyway, but most of those are propably already living there. Some can make a good living there, but not that many. For those who can't or who have better options it will remain just a place to keep a jumpclone and a few ships(same as today).

The bottom line is, that people who don't care about efficiency or ISK making are already doing 0.0 or what ever other thing they find enjoyable. If you want to bring new people into 0.0 you need to actually change the results of some of these profit and efficiency calculations people make(losses and time wasted on not earning matter here) or accept, that they are not an intended audience for 0.0. Ofcourse CCP could introduce new things unique to 0.0 to attract more of those people who don't care about efficiency calculations, but that doesn't seem to be the approach CCP is taking.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:06:00 - [3066]
 

Spam.Applebabe

Jonathan Dawnchaser
Caldari
Profit Chasing llc
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:07:00 - [3067]
 

1. Just because your alliance can't Flag all those systems doesn't mean you can't utilize them still. You are still able to rove through them ratting and what not.

2. Even if another alliance tries to move it, it will take 7 days to get to Sov level 1. When does Cyno Jammer become available? Level 3? (based on the dev blog showing strategic 3 with cyno suppression as a "?") That takes 35 days. I am sure a big alliance can cobble together some sort of fleet op given 7 weeks.

3. It would be nice if the "biweekly" cost could be subsidized by minerals. Thereby allowing mining to directly pay for system costs, but that would tamper with the market (unless the mineral floor was less than the market rates). But then it removes player interaction.

3b. Instead what your alliance can do is to try to establish "little Jitas." Hubs on the edge of low-high sec to vend all the stuff you loot. Put enough bulk for a particular segment and you can attract usage (be it buy or sell orders). The only reason Jita is popular is because of its "one-stop shopping" appeal. You or I might not get the best prices, but we aren't going to have many of the 200-300 unique item stacks left over for lack of a potential buyer/seller.

4. Yeah it sucks that POS refining isn't instant, but if it was, those POSes would be offlined until there is a large quantity of ore ready to be refined. Refining time is to encourage pipelining, which encourages stations always being on. Maybe CCP can be convinced to allow a refinery array to be tied to the system Sov (i.e. can't be offlined) and then get a bonus from the Industry Level to reduce the refining time. Since the Industrial level is tied to utilization, the more you use it, the better you get at using it.

5. Yeah the market value of a lot of ore/minerals is low. And while there isn't anything that can be done for highsec minerals, but nullsec minerals can be increased in value by engaging in corporate sabotage. Go attack each other. You don't even need to necessarily fight, just being in the constellation can send miners scurrying to their holes. Congratulations, you didn't blow up a ship, but you just interrupted production.

This effects the supply of minerals on the market, which can in turn drive up the demand price.

6. I know I am suggesting changes in our behavior, but that is what CCP is going for with Dominion. They are changing the rules of the game to force player groups to adapt their strategies because as it is now (pre-Dominion), certain strategies are just so effective (moon mining) that others can be neglected entirely.

And it is entirely possible that these changes may encourage CCP to make refinery arrays better than 75% yield as a best case.

No matter what, I know that just whining is not going to convince CCP of anything except that they need to make another HTFU rap video (*shiver*).

This post wouldn't be complete if I didn't plug my bid for a seat on CSM4. To everyone that didn't "TL;DR": Thanks for reading.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:07:00 - [3068]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 23:07:59
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Renada Trinity
Well I actually read most of this...there are good points, but mostly complaining, sorry my opinion.

(...)

This patch will allow some of that space to free up and let smaller corp/alliances to form in 0.0 space.

Then you didn't read this thread.

Increased Sov costs just means that the big alliances will only officially claim key systems. They will still occupy the same space as they do today. The upgrades are so terrible that they can not reduce their footprint in order to sustain their pilots.

So yes, the blobs on the in-game map will be smaller. The blobs on the map that will be generated out of a thread on CAOD will be exactly the same. And if a little guy tries to move into one of the systems that is unclaimed officially, but claimed in CAOD, they will be crushed like a bug. Because that big alliance is still using that space for ratting, which remains the only reasonable income stream for the individual pilots trying to live full-time in 0.0.

If CCP buffs the anomalies well above what the blues have described in this very thread, then you might see alliances contract. But when those anomalies offer equal income to L4s in Empire, take 100 days to get, and can be completely shut down by parking an afk cloaker in an anomaly so it can't respawn, they are not worth buying.

Quote:
What I see is the upgrade is going to make people have to actually work for once in order to keep thier space.

And you've apparently never tried to live in 0.0.


Agree completely with this post and the key statement is:

Quote:
Increased Sov costs just means that the big alliances will only officially claim key systems. They will still occupy the same space as they do today. The upgrades are so terrible that they can not reduce their footprint in order to sustain their pilots.


I would LOVE to be able to shed systems in favor of a more dense space-empire. In fact that's what the changes were meant to facilitate. these were the changes our CSM representatives pushed for. But CCP came up short so its time for them to considering a better incentive

My suggestion was an overhaul of anomalies that essentially involved replacing them with regular belt rats with regular bounties, loot, and salvage.

Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:08:00 - [3069]
 

Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.


Sov nerf: yes. Nerfs all the perks of sov: cyno gens/jammers/JB's/CSAAs/sov4

Resource Buff: No. Given that we can't test/have no idea how the effects will play out.

Pirate magnet: more guaranteed anomalies. Better than belting? No.
Profession sites: This is mentioned a lot. Mags/radars are poor income. Ladars are only in Cosmos. Grav's are good only in WH's.

Complexes: Probably a bright side here. However, there better be a lot of them, because if you have 20 probers looking for one site, only one guy is going to get lucky.

WH generator: Yessiree baby! Excellent idea, and would rock if L5 would create a constantly open WH that would not decay. The bummer is that to adequately extract WH resources you need to live there.

Mining Upgrades: If this means spawning hidden belts with the composition and density of current system belts or (heaven forbid!) grav sites, then this is worthless. If you are talking about spawning a WH class grav site, i'm all over that. Superdense roids ftw! By the way, you'd generate a ton of goodwill if you multiplied the average output of a veld roid in 0.0 by 4-5x. That would make 0.0 mining much easier.



Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:08:00 - [3070]
 

Originally by: Cefte
Originally by: Normin Bates
Originally by: Cefte


[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.


[x] Patently lazy and tear soaked goon.
[x] Unwilling to adapt.
[x] Fears losing vast areas of unused space.
[ ] Now seriously concerned about smaller alliances' ability to hold space.
[x] Hopes CCP will buckle under the tears posted here.
[ ] Is honest & genuine.

Fixed that for ya.


- It's me I'm patently lazy Cool
- I've literally just made an empire l4 running alt, gogo evolution.
- I visit every system in Goonswarm regions every three days. Gogo exploration!
- I'm not concerned about that at all. More pubbies to shoot would be great, but so would coca, and I just made myself coca. CCP seems to be concerned about it, though, and it's pretty funny how badly they're reliving Exodus, but you don't need to adhere to their vision to point out the gulf between vision and implementation.
- I have no hope that CCP will buckle under the tears here. When people in a position of massive authority start trolling their powerless critics, they're emotionally invested, and their ego will prevent them from backing down. This thread is more a pre-emptive 'we told you so'.
- Yassih, it's genu-wine Hires.


I like this cefte post. Also in the pre-emptive "told-ya-so" category, this dev blog really hurts because I was a CSM and it was my job to give player feedback specifically on 0.0, and lol here is a devblog that sure as **** looks like ccp completely ignored me. I told them pretty much everything that was reiterated in this thread except I said it in person. Still no results.

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:09:00 - [3071]
 

Originally by: Dante Edmundo

Which hand you talking about?


Pimp, duh.

Originally by: Tesal
Spam.Applebabe


Originally by: KeratinBoy
Non-constructive content removed.Applebabe




P.S., this forum is a bag of **** on the coding level. Fix with haste (AHAHAHAHAHA) tia.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:09:00 - [3072]
 

YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught getting beaten by your wife?

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:12:00 - [3073]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 10/11/2009 23:13:14
Originally by: Roger Douglas
Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.


Sov nerf: yes. Nerfs all the perks of sov: cyno gens/jammers/JB's/CSAAs/sov4

Resource Buff: No. Given that we can't test/have no idea how the effects will play out.

Pirate magnet: more guaranteed anomalies. Better than belting? No.
Profession sites: This is mentioned a lot. Mags/radars are poor income. Ladars are only in Cosmos. Grav's are good only in WH's.

Complexes: Probably a bright side here. However, there better be a lot of them, because if you have 20 probers looking for one site, only one guy is going to get lucky.

WH generator: Yessiree baby! Excellent idea, and would rock if L5 would create a constantly open WH that would not decay. The bummer is that to adequately extract WH resources you need to live there.

Mining Upgrades: If this means spawning hidden belts with the composition and density of current system belts or (heaven forbid!) grav sites, then this is worthless. If you are talking about spawning a WH class grav site, i'm all over that. Superdense roids ftw! By the way, you'd generate a ton of goodwill if you multiplied the average output of a veld roid in 0.0 by 4-5x. That would make 0.0 mining much easier.





There will be more ratting resource than there was before. Why do you deny that? Ratting is not being nerfed, there will not be fewer rats. Why do you deny that?

*edit
I demand an answer to this question.

KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:14:00 - [3074]
 

Originally by: Tamahra
YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?


I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:16:00 - [3075]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Roger Douglas
Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.


Sov nerf: yes. Nerfs all the perks of sov: cyno gens/jammers/JB's/CSAAs/sov4

Resource Buff: No. Given that we can't test/have no idea how the effects will play out.

Pirate magnet: more guaranteed anomalies. Better than belting? No.
Profession sites: This is mentioned a lot. Mags/radars are poor income. Ladars are only in Cosmos. Grav's are good only in WH's.

Complexes: Probably a bright side here. However, there better be a lot of them, because if you have 20 probers looking for one site, only one guy is going to get lucky.

WH generator: Yessiree baby! Excellent idea, and would rock if L5 would create a constantly open WH that would not decay. The bummer is that to adequately extract WH resources you need to live there.

Mining Upgrades: If this means spawning hidden belts with the composition and density of current system belts or (heaven forbid!) grav sites, then this is worthless. If you are talking about spawning a WH class grav site, i'm all over that. Superdense roids ftw! By the way, you'd generate a ton of goodwill if you multiplied the average output of a veld roid in 0.0 by 4-5x. That would make 0.0 mining much easier.





There will be more ratting resource than there was before. Why do you deny that? Ratting is not being nerfed, there will not be fewer rats. Why do you deny that?


First of all Cosmic Anomalies are not the same as belt ratting. They are worth less per hour than belt ratting under current mechanics and will stay that way unless CCP has some changes they have yet to release. It is not a "ratting resource."

Second of all no poster in this thread has made any mention of a nerf to ratting, aside from you in this post right here.

Jonnuus
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:18:00 - [3076]
 

Originally by: Tesal
There will be more ratting resource than there was before. Why do you deny that? Ratting is not being nerfed, there will not be fewer rats. Why do you deny that?

*edit
I demand an answer to this question.
Because "Please don't do this" doesn't flow as well when followed by a "even though you are making more opportunities for wealth."

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:19:00 - [3077]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 10/11/2009 23:24:54
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Tamahra
YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?


I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:


ANSWER THE QUESTION: Arrow YES OR NO: THERE WILL BE MORE RATS IN DOMINION THAN THERE ARE NOW, RIGHT?

I did all caps and added an arrow, you have no choice but to answer the question.

*edit
Originally by: Qlanth

First of all Cosmic Anomalies are not the same as belt ratting. They are worth less per hour than belt ratting under current mechanics and will stay that way unless CCP has some changes they have yet to release. It is not a "ratting resource."

Second of all no poster in this thread has made any mention of a nerf to ratting, aside from you in this post right here.


So you admit that all the rats we have now will be there in the future?

Also, for the second time, Cosmic Anomalies has been disbanded. They used to live in 4c and 33fn with little green men. They are gone now. They were ratted to extinction.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:20:00 - [3078]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: ep1k

I never even mentioned ratting. Make the ore a bigger step above veld. Make anomalies not on par with level 4 but double. Give rewards that you want to fight to keep. Make it so making your income has risk and large payoffs. Noone here wants free isk. They want large isk that you die for. Would this cause more pvp? Yes it would. And your statement of wah wah we already make money doing level 4s is just idiotic. Thats the problem. You cant fight someone to hurt their income because its in motsu. You have no reason to take over someones space and gain thier previous rewards, because their rewards are in motsu. Tye high isk gain to owning space. Reduce the space you can control. Then we will have an interesting null sec. I am all for having less space for large alliances.


Ratting, anomalies, roids, w/e is all the same and making it more rewarding does not make anyone who is not already living in 0.0 to live there.

Risk vs Reward is just nonsense. According to this logic you should be paid more for as you expose yourself to higher risk. If that is the case, you are just stupid and deserve to get podded.



So all the posts of people saying they were planning to bring their alliance out to 0.0 then when they saw the upgrades decided not to. They were disspointed that nullsec still wasnt that great of income.. If you seriously cant figure out that isk income is important for people deciding where to go and amke money, you are a fool. By you logic if you increased 00. income 500x noone would move there. If you cut level 4 income down to 10% noone would move to 0.0. Isk drives everything, and its the reason people arent happy with this patch.

If you want people to move to nullsec, you increase the reward. And according to everythign ccp has said they do. Im telling you this is not enough. The small alliances are telling them its not enough. You admit you dotn want more people in nullsec, adn that you dont care.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:21:00 - [3079]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Tamahra
YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?


I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:


ANSWER THE QUESTION: Arrow YES OR NO: THERE WILL BE MORE RATS IN DOMINION THAN THERE ARE NOW, RIGHT?

I did all caps and added an arrow, you have no choice but to answer the question.


The real question is if I have rats in an anomaly and rats in a belt and the rats in the anomaly are worth 2/3rds the amount of ISK as the ones in the belts why would I bother shooting them?

Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:21:00 - [3080]
 

Edited by: Roger Douglas on 10/11/2009 23:23:11



There will be more ratting resource than there was before. Why do you deny that? Ratting is not being nerfed, there will not be fewer rats. Why do you deny that?

*edit
I demand an answer to this question.


Because chaining BS in belts > anomalies. The amount of rats is not the question. How much they are worth in isk and how much time is required to get the maximum payout is the correct question.

I've seen quite a few systems in 0.0 where people don't go that are packed with a dozen anomalies. They aggregate in systems where they don't get run. They don't get run because their income is insufficent next to running belts in or nearby station systems. If the choice is between belts and anomalies, I'm taking belts. Chaining is another perk. Good spawns keep coming. This is not the case with anomalies.

edit: goon replies were better than mine. I fail.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:23:00 - [3081]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.

Not when you have an unlimited strawberry called empire.

...and that is where people are wrong.
Empire missioning is vanilla; safe, predictable, always available and boring.
Some people do prefer vanilla, however.


Ah when you dont have any real arguments go for the "fun" factor.

Empire missioning is safe, boring and predictable just like any other pve activities in this game. EVE pve sucks, there are far better games out there for pve. The people living in 0.0 want to spend as little as possible time on making isk to support the activities they find to be fun.

In other words they keep their moneymaker in empire and the pvp'er in 0.0 or just jumpclones back and forth.

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:23:00 - [3082]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Spam.Applebabe


**** you are dumb

sov nerf:
If you think tickers on the map are what controlling space is about, in reality: NO THE BIG ALLIANCES WILL STILL _CONTROL_ THEIR SPACE
resource buff:
If you think more of the same is a buff, in reality: NO THE RESOURCES AREN'T BEING USED AS IT IS


re the risk/reward thing, here is how it actually is:

I live in 0.0
I earn isk in empire because it is isk/hr comparable with a bonus of safety/afkablity
When I am in empire I am not in 0.0
That means 1 less player in 0.0
Less players in 0.0 is bad
.: empire being comparable isk/hr to 0.0 is bad
.: 0.0 needs a buff or empire needs a nerf
QED

(oh go ahead and tell me I suck at earning isk yada yada)

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:28:00 - [3083]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Tamahra
YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?


I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:


ANSWER THE QUESTION: Arrow YES OR NO: THERE WILL BE MORE RATS IN DOMINION THAN THERE ARE NOW, RIGHT?

I did all caps and added an arrow, you have no choice but to answer the question.



Show me all the alliances that have been screaming to move to nullsec in order to earn level 4 income. Adding something thats provides no value to the people you are trying to attract is not a buff.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:29:00 - [3084]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 10/11/2009 23:31:12
Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: Tesal
Spam.Applebabe


**** you are dumb

sov nerf:
If you think tickers on the map are what controlling space is about, in reality: NO THE BIG ALLIANCES WILL STILL _CONTROL_ THEIR SPACE
resource buff:
If you think more of the same is a buff, in reality: NO THE RESOURCES AREN'T BEING USED AS IT IS


re the risk/reward thing, here is how it actually is:

I live in 0.0
I earn isk in empire because it is isk/hr comparable with a bonus of safety/afkablity
When I am in empire I am not in 0.0
That means 1 less player in 0.0
Less players in 0.0 is bad
.: empire being comparable isk/hr to 0.0 is bad
.: 0.0 needs a buff or empire needs a nerf
QED

(oh go ahead and tell me I suck at earning isk yada yada)


I AM WRITING IN ALL CAPS. I AM SAYING CRITICAL STUFF THAT EVERYONE MUST HEAR REPEATEDLY. YOU SUCK AT EARNING ISK. THAT WAS BOLD, AND TWICE AS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT WAS BOLD. IF I REPEAT MYSELF ENOUGH EVERYONE WILL BELIEVE ME.

*EDIT
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Tamahra
YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?


I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:


ANSWER THE QUESTION: Arrow YES OR NO: THERE WILL BE MORE RATS IN DOMINION THAN THERE ARE NOW, RIGHT?

I did all caps and added an arrow, you have no choice but to answer the question.



Show me all the alliances that have been screaming to move to nullsec in order to earn level 4 income. Adding something thats provides no value to the people you are trying to attract is not a buff.



THEY WILL SHOW UP ONCE YOU ARE DEAD, THEY WILL CLAIM SOV ON THE BROKEN REMAINS OF YOUR EMPIRE.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:29:00 - [3085]
 

Originally by: Kepakh

Risk vs Reward is just nonsense. According to this logic you should be paid more for as you expose yourself to higher risk. If that is the case, you are just stupid and deserve to get podded.


Then what is 0.0? Is it just there as a pointless battlegrounds/epeen generator for some player generated map?

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:30:00 - [3086]
 

yay for red text.

Anyway, the thing that most people frothing at the mouth and screaming "LOL 0.0 alliance abc is whining about this expansion" keep missing what the majority of us are saying. So I'll 'try' to clarify it as much as possible and hope someone at CCP even glances at this post (doubtful they will)

1. We 0.0 mega alliances DO NOT WANT ALL THE SPACE WE HAVE CURRENTLY. We pretty much only have it all because systems can support 1 to 3 ratters at a time and even the -1.0 systems can only support a dedicated team of miners for maybe a day (too bad ore responds only twice a week....)

So with that statement above we need more space to accommodate all those people. Convo any person who's run more then 2 pos's for more then 30 days. THEY HATE IT. It's boring, we don't want to do it, it's chores and when you get into the 50+ mark it's work. From Goon to AAA, IT to NC we've all wanted to decouple POS running to sov since the stupid things suck the life outta people.

Would most alliances like to dump everyone into 3 or 4 constellations or less? HOLY CRAP YES!!!!!!! I talk to people daily in my own corp that I haven't seen in space in weeks at a time because they have to spread out so much to find income making systems in our space that isn't full to the brim with people. hell yeah we want less space!!! but the upgrades (still) listed as the way they are won't support the fabled 50 people per system we wanted, not to mention NEED. It's looking like they'll barely even support 25 people at at time for most systems. That isn't us being greedy, or whining, that's us saying "it's broken please fix it so we CAN give up more space!" [white] <--- read that last line before you say we're whining [white]

2. Moon goo nerf - Please, everyone in 0.0 seems to be saying "nerf it NOW lets do it!" everyone knew it was broken, and everyone took advantage of it. Pretty telling that it seems EVERYONE is saying nerf it and not a single peep of 'that's not fair!'

3. Freedom - 0.0 meant freedom at it's most basic level, you made good income from less activity because THERE WAS MORE DEFENSE/OFFENSE then carebearing 23/7 yeah you made better income then lvl 4's but you needed that income to make up for all the crap you were losing against roamers, wars, and pirates. That equation fell in the floor years ago and was never fixed. Now their adding a massive tax to the 0.0 holders that doesn't seem to give us the means to support it/pay for it. Then they couple it with a moon nerf. So lets look at this as a basic equation shall we?


Problem/Bills
Sov costs
Alliance costs
Corp costs
Logistics costs
Ship costs
Defense costs

Answer/Income
Moon goo (-50% profitably)(+unknown time cost to gather over more moons to pay same costs AND new sov costs)
Ratting (-75% space, +50% value or remaining space... hrm 100 - 75% = 25 system +50% value = 50 system value. needed 100 in the first place...er? wut?)
Mining (not enough ore, will lose systems, not sure grav sites will make up for it, many people compress and send to empire anyway, alliances shafted STILL)
Anoms (currently very, very low income, belt ratting better (haven't seen evidence that CCP will FIX anoms before they become primary source for many ratters) not enough of them in the space anyone would keep to fuel their incomes needed.[orange]

I'm not trying to be a smart@ss here, these changes will effect everyone in 0.0. Many of them are going to have to make changes and that [orange]is a good thing as it's stagnant as hell atm
but as it stands unless drastic changes are made to the various upgrades 'most' alliances are going to be hurting.

(next post because of wall-o-text)

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:32:00 - [3087]
 

Originally by: ep1k

So all the posts of people saying they were planning to bring their alliance out to 0.0 then when they saw the upgrades decided not to. They were disspointed that nullsec still wasnt that great of income.. If you seriously cant figure out that isk income is important for people deciding where to go and amke money, you are a fool. By you logic if you increased 00. income 500x noone would move there. If you cut level 4 income down to 10% noone would move to 0.0. Isk drives everything, and its the reason people arent happy with this patch.

If you want people to move to nullsec, you increase the reward. And according to everythign ccp has said they do. Im telling you this is not enough. The small alliances are telling them its not enough. You admit you dotn want more people in nullsec, adn that you dont care.


You can make silly ISK in wormholes by sleeper gridning, still the space is dead empty.

Stop doing things the way it doesn't work.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:35:00 - [3088]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 10/11/2009 23:36:51
Originally by: Banlish
yay for red text.


NEXT TIME WRITE IN ALL CAPS TOO. AND ALSO TRY BOLD.

*edit
Pay me for dying.

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:36:00 - [3089]
 

Continued wall-o-text

So the big boys (the 1000+ member alliances are going to have to make the same income off 1/4th the space (if not less) but systems can only support about 50% of what CCP said YET is still thinking that 50 people+ will fit in a system.

So how will these new alliances fit in? This is me making rational request for the SMALL alliances

They get saddled with giant costs if the space they've taken they try to upgrade yet they have no good ore, no good rats, no good moons and yet costs spiral up sharply. Oh and lets not forget they have to other protectorate themselves to the 'big guy' in the area or fight them. So we add in costs for war too. Hrm, not sure how these little alliances are going to have around 5 to 10 bill to try to take even a single constellation, but it sure does seem like they won't even try.

I'd love to see most of 0.0 turn into something 'like' Providence, you have something like 7 alliances holding space there, another 50+ in there, not holding space but working/living in the space. Tons of blues, and Tons of reds all mashing together to make Providence one of the most populated/visited/active 0.0 regions in the game. Will we? I hope so. Will we with Dominion as it is now? Nope.

Give those little guys a shot and give them an adjusting sov scale price yes you'll have alliances abuse it with alliance a, b, c, d, etc. but that messes up communication and makes things a nightmare anyway. The 'true' small alliances that only have one should be rewarded for trying to get some space for themselves. First 0.0 system free. Or let them designatate a capital system that has no costs per alliance. The more systems the more it costs (yes that means Goons, ATLAS, AAA, Drone lands has to lose the most but we're all prepared to do so AND think it should happen).


Personally I want to see the map like it was in 06 when we had over a hundred alliances in 0.0. Regions were split many ways and 2 or 3 outposts were enough for most alliances. Not this 20+ outposts and 3+ regions we're seeing. Notice that means my own alliance would have to shed outposts and systems, WE WANT IT!!!

More brush fire wars (meaning don't tax us into oblivion, find more ways to make more fights that DON'T mean bringing 500vrs500.)
MORE WAR!
MORE people out here doing EVERYTHING they possibly can.

I'm trying not to be biased, I want to see even a 09 player get out here, not just those of us that have stuck with it all this time and REALLY like pounding on each other (hi 2 goons). Sorry for the rant, but you other speak up and say "at least I tried" or you don't get the right to complain when the problem you saw coming hits.

-Ban

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:41:00 - [3090]
 

Originally by: Kepakh


You can make silly ISK in wormholes by sleeper gridning, still the space is dead empty.

Stop doing things the way it doesn't work.


There are several people in this thread saying they currently make good money in wormhole space and wanted to move their corps to 0.0. But the isk income is not enticing enough for them to do it. they want to do something. but wont do something that actually hurts them. People dont want to make less money to take longer to do what they enjoy. so yes, iw oudl say income does alter these peoples positions. You can keep ignoring the point of this expansion all you want, and you will continue to miss the point.

This was supposed to drive people to nullsec, and it wont untill there are increased incentives.


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