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ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:23:00 - [3031]
 

Originally by: Orthaen

For the nine hundredth time, if you want to stay in empire running level 4s, nothing CCP will do can change your mind. The game is yours to play how you choose.


They could increase the isk rewards in null sec. That pretty much what this thread boils down too. People want to go to nullsec and make money, but people arent dumb. They dont want to risk dying to make equal or less money. Even if anomalies are the exact same income as level 4s you wont make the exact same money. Youll be taxed to pay upkeep, your ship will get blown up losing you money, and losing you time to replace it, which could be used to be making money, meaning you lose even more money.

If people thought they could make double or triple what they make doing level 4s they would flock to try to get to that. They would fight to try to get it, and this expansion would be a success. Sure not everyone would come, but many would.

You say nullsec ores are better. Sure some of them are sometimes. But then that ore just dosent turn into minerals when you look at it. Hauling refining and risk are all issues. Even when alliances want to take advantage of them. It only takes one ganker in a system to prevent that. Also the level 4 problem isnt just that it gives you more money than mining would Level 4 loot being refined into minerals is a very huge source of them. Running a level 4 is essentially mining with missiles.

Increase the null sec income potentials, drive people out to it. Make them want to stop running level 4s. Then there will be a gap where there loot was giving you minerals. Now maybe people will have a reason to mine.


Renada Trinity
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:25:00 - [3032]
 

Well I actually read most of this...there are good points, but mostly complaining, sorry my opinion.

Let me tell you, took a trip in my force recon, down thru the middle of delve, past KIA and ZAF, came up around -a- and atlas then into NC space. Well guess what, most of the systems are empty, nothing, not being used!

This patch will allow some of that space to free up and let smaller corp/alliances to form in 0.0 space. Cost, alls I see on these forums CAOD, how all these alliance generated gazillions of isk. Example someone throwing up contract for 10 titans after they lost one. Maybe they nerf the moongoo. What I see is the upgrade is going to make people have to actually work for once in order to keep thier space. Blobs sitting aroud doing nothing doesnt generate tax monies, thats mainly what you see unless there is some fleet battle here or there thru-out the week.

Simple fact is, get up, do some work, earn your space, work your space (to make it better) give up what you dont need, the 50 system buffer zones and stop complaining.

I think CCP has to look at its customer base, and after not being able to expand into 0.0 why play? That is one reason for this patch too.

My $0.02

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:26:00 - [3033]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Orthaen
For the nine hundredth time, if you want to stay in empire running level 4s, nothing CCP will do can change your mind. The game is yours to play how you choose.
True, but that's also the core of the complaint: contrary to the stated goals, Dominion does nothing to change this — quite the opposite. No incentives are added to move out. In fact, by the looks of things, it rather provides further incentives to move to highsec to maintain that 0.0 empire…


Many new incentives are added. More rare minerals, more deadspace mods, more rats to make more money on. YOU find them unappealing. I'm not sure why. So do many others. I don't understand how having LESS logistic work and MORE money is an incentive to move to empire. Also, mining Arkonor is more profitable then running level 4s. I would imagine mining is not the most profitable activity in 0.0.

No matter how many times people try to twist it (mostly by assuming hauling **** 30 jumps through 0.0 is free, but whatever) there are people that would be willing to mine those "worthless" ABC ores and ginormous veldrocks and create a market in 0.0. These are people stuck in hi-sec because the alliances dont see them as worthwhile. The expansion adds more reasons for the alliances to recruit people that WANT to mine. This is a success, by the goals CCP put forth. Sorry if the current residents are butthurt, but they'll get over it, mostly when they realize the expansion doesnt really effect their heaven-like ratting lifestyle. And yeah, it sort of sucks it doesnt add a lot for the combat pilots...but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:29:00 - [3034]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.


Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:31:00 - [3035]
 

Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




Proof or GTFO.

Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.

Alexander Knott
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:32:00 - [3036]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
While you transfer everthing into ISK/hour, one thing you overlook here is time value. That means that some people can work 'harder' for the same ISK...

What if you could spent /input random number here/ hours less by grinding because you have x miners in your 0.0 space to get all the minerals you need?
That's essentially what already happens, except the miners are actually high sec mission runners and 0.0 ratters for the most part. Turns out that it's much cheaper to buy minerals from mission runners and import them than it is to pay a miner to mine the rocks. Part of this is the increasingly cheap cost of importation, part of it is refinables making mining an increasingly irrelevant profession.

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:32:00 - [3037]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Orthaen
For the nine hundredth time, if you want to stay in empire running level 4s, nothing CCP will do can change your mind. The game is yours to play how you choose.
True, but that's also the core of the complaint: contrary to the stated goals, Dominion does nothing to change this — quite the opposite. No incentives are added to move out. In fact, by the looks of things, it rather provides further incentives to move to highsec to maintain that 0.0 empire…


Spot on, the new system kinda removes the need to even go to your empire if you don't want to, you can pay the new bills after earning your isk in empire. At least before the bill was fuel which HAD to be delivered to 0.0

The new system almost encourages 0.0 to be funded from empire as its so much easier, all you need to do now is take new ships made/brought in empire down every now and then and nothing else.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:33:00 - [3038]
 

Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:34:00 - [3039]
 

Originally by: ep1k

They could increase the isk rewards in null sec. That pretty much what this thread boils down too. People want to go to nullsec and make money, but people arent dumb. They dont want to risk dying to make equal or less money. Even if anomalies are the exact same income as level 4s you wont make the exact same money. Youll be taxed to pay upkeep, your ship will get blown up losing you money, and losing you time to replace it, which could be used to be making money, meaning you lose even more money.

If people thought they could make double or triple what they make doing level 4s they would flock to try to get to that. They would fight to try to get it, and this expansion would be a success. Sure not everyone would come, but many would.

You say nullsec ores are better. Sure some of them are sometimes. But then that ore just dosent turn into minerals when you look at it. Hauling refining and risk are all issues. Even when alliances want to take advantage of them. It only takes one ganker in a system to prevent that. Also the level 4 problem isnt just that it gives you more money than mining would Level 4 loot being refined into minerals is a very huge source of them. Running a level 4 is essentially mining with missiles.

Increase the null sec income potentials, drive people out to it. Make them want to stop running level 4s. Then there will be a gap where there loot was giving you minerals. Now maybe people will have a reason to mine.


Stop this crap already.

If anyone wants to live in 0.0, he's are already there and fund himself by missions/whatever flies your boat.
Increasing ratting rewards won't make anyone coming to 0.0, it will only make more ISK to current 0.0 inhabitans.

In fact, more profitable ratting means more PVP resulting in:
1) less profitable ratting
2) static 0.0 because everyone is ratting
2) static 0.0 because anyone who is not ratting is protecting the ratters leaving no aggresors

(half-serious on this one)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:34:00 - [3040]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
Many new incentives are added. More rare minerals, more deadspace mods, more rats to make more money on.
More of the same minerals, which are already not worth-while to mine. More of them makes them even less worth-while.
More deadspace mods makes them less worth-while.
More rats makes no difference since they're no better than what you can get in highsec.
Quote:
The expansion adds more reasons for the alliances to recruit people that WANT to mine. This is a success, by the goals CCP put forth.
Yes, there's a reason to recruit miners, as long as they stay in highsec, where they can do some good. None of the goals set up by CCP are met.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:35:00 - [3041]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
Many new incentives are added.


Nope, we have them in game already and I've tried them. They aren't worth doing... ever.

Quote:
No matter how many times people try to twist it (mostly by assuming hauling **** 30 jumps through 0.0 is free, but whatever) there are people that would be willing to mine those "worthless" ABC ores and ginormous veldrocks and create a market in 0.0.


Yes and morons in high-sec will sell battleships below insurance levels. The current residents know that no competent entities will move to nullsec as a result of these negative changes. Also, there is a vibrant market economy in 0.0 right now! Amazing huh...

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:35:00 - [3042]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:37:14
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




Proof or GTFO.

Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.


Mostly I would say the proof is that every major 0.0 space holding alliance has posted in this very thread saying they think CCP has done a poor job creating incentive for even current 0.0 holding alliances to stay.

These alliances include but are not limited to: GoonSwarm, MM, PL, Razor, Legion of xXDeathXx, IT, Atlas and Against ALL Authorites

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:36:00 - [3043]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
I am starting to develope an idea here.

While you transfer everthing into ISK/hour, one thing you overlook here is time value. That means that some people can work 'harder' for the same ISK...

What if you could spent /input random number here/ hours less by grinding because you have x miners in your 0.0 space to get all the minerals you need?


Except that there's no incentive for them to come down to our space.

What do we have to offer them? "Hey guys come and mine in 0.0, the market is kinda crappy, you might get ganked by a HAC gang, you might get camped into an outpost or POS and make no money tomorrow, if we get invaded all your assets might be locked away in a station and lost forever, and even if none of that happens you'll still be making less money than you could be by staying safely in highsec!"

What are 0.0 alliances supposed to offer to bring this mining army down to 0.0? Meet them out-of-game once every 3 months and give them candy floss and blowjobs?

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:39:00 - [3044]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




Proof or GTFO.

Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.


Mostly I would say the proof is that every major 0.0 space holding alliance has posted in this very thread saying they think CCP has done a poor job creating incentive for even current 0.0 holding alliances to stay.

These alliances include but are not limited to, GoonSwarm, MM, PL, Razor, Legion of xXDeathXx, Atlas and Against ALL Authorites


YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:40:00 - [3045]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
The point I was making that alliances dont HAVE to deal with the hell of importing


Yes, they have. Same if import require few days of preparation of security protocols, some people mobilisation, fuelling POS, etc... And so same if it has a preparation cost, it is faster to import 1 B of Tritanium than mine the same amount in 0.0 within the same time.

Quote:
6/10-10/10 plexes are also worth less then 2/10 plexes [...] I dont see how... A single officer drop from ratting and you're in the lead by a long shot.


I did them now only to change from missions sometimes, because I did plexes for 8 months before, and I won... 5 B with bounties and faction loot. That means... 625M a month so... 13.5 hours of L4 Missions per month by comparison... Well, per month is a lie, as I got 750M only between February and August. I got the rest because I was really lucky the first week of August (3 * faction Med Shield Boosters...), a luck that I didn't have a new time.

Plexes don't guarantee faction loots, or valuable faction loots, so stable income. L4 missions guarantees stable income.

For the rest, you seem like Jade Constantine or some others : You confuse "game" and "work".

Roger Douglas
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:41:00 - [3046]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




uhhh...wow.

Let's take this a bit at a time:

Mining - using a POS to refine. Either have a 1 hour cycle time @ 35% or a 3 hour cycle time at 75%. 40k max refine at one time. Then, you have to mine ice for fuel, and you still need stuffs from empire to fuel the pos. Try mining veld in 0.0, or mining minerals that aren't prevalent like iso or mex. It is incredibly annoying.

Production- Building stuff at posses? Great! That means you need more posses for building stuffs. Building BS will be non-fun, cause mining all the minerals you need for BS is a lot more than your cruiser/BC comparison. If you are trying to have a t2 production chain, then you have an invention pos, 10 or so reactor posses, and you better hope you have an amarr station because t2 ship building arrays have a 10% material penalty and only one slot. Not to mention that you have to have a component building array. How about storage? Your corp hangar or three can't hold all of the stuff you need.

In short, have at least 2 types of stations (minnie and amarr), plus full pos chains for mining and reactions, plus defense networks, jump points, cap arrays, and all the people to make it work. Oh, and be prepared to haul in or build all the fuel, materials, ships and mods you can't build yourself, because you just can't fly next door to a market station and buy what you need from npc's.

In short, you don't get 0.0 . You won't get it, either, while you stay in high or low sec. Go move out to a 0.0 NPC system with your corp and then tell me how i'm underutilizing my resources. Casually assuming that you'll have access to a station with goods to buy is the hallmark of a highsec dweller. Casually assuming you'll even be able to undock a mining barge or hauler in npc 0.0 is a happy day for a pirate or a roaming gang.

Oh, and we do make everything but npc materials up here in 0.0. It takes a lot of effort, team play, and willingness to bust skullz. I don't think you'd last a week under our mining director, and you would flee back to empire if you had to take care of POS. Not to mention you'd never be able to replace all of your PVP losses unless you were ratting for isk. It's not a couple ships a week lost, but 2-3 a day during hard fighting.

so don't tell me i'm underutilizing my resources, and i'm not whining about bringing stuff from empire. I'm in a large space holding alliance, and i know exactly what it takes to live and operate in 0.0. Unless Dominion is tweaked, especially with some of these upgrades, I don't think anyone but well established alliances are still going to be able to make a go of it out here. The rest are going to scurry back to empire because 0.0 is still hardmode, and dominion is not going to make it easier.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:43:00 - [3047]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:44:06
Originally by: Scatim Helicon


What are 0.0 alliances supposed to offer to bring this mining army down to 0.0? Meet them out-of-game once every 3 months and give them candy floss and blowjobs?


What kind of candy floss? Maybe we could have a candy floss upgrade?

Tappits
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:43:00 - [3048]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Except that there's no incentive for them to come down to our space.

What do we have to offer them? "Hey guys come and mine in 0.0, the market is kinda crappy, you might get ganked by a HAC gang, you might get camped into an outpost or POS and make no money tomorrow, if we get invaded all your assets might be locked away in a station and lost forever, and even if none of that happens you'll still be making less money than you could be by staying safely in highsec!"

What are 0.0 alliances supposed to offer to bring this mining army down to 0.0? Meet them out-of-game once every 3 months and give them candy floss and blowjobs?


QBIC

There is no incentive other wise 70% of peple in game would not still be in Empire lol
all coments are null and void because this IS TRUE

also if your posting in this topic on a noob alt all your doing is troling tbo and are not worth replying to.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:44:00 - [3049]
 

Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Dante Edmundo
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36

>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.

No - it doesn't.




Proof or GTFO.

Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.


Mostly I would say the proof is that every major 0.0 space holding alliance has posted in this very thread saying they think CCP has done a poor job creating incentive for even current 0.0 holding alliances to stay.

These alliances include but are not limited to, GoonSwarm, MM, PL, Razor, Legion of xXDeathXx, Atlas and Against ALL Authorites


YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.


No, once again we will go back to opportunity cost.

If I can make 20 million ISK running a cosmic anomaly (this is actually a fair estimate given current mechanics) or 35 million ISK belt ratting (I would also say this is a fair estimate given current mechanics), which should I chose? Belt ratting right? No matter how many cosmic anomalies I can have guaranteed to spawn, unless every single one of those is a top tier anomaly I should still be trying to maximize my ISK/hr by ratting in a belt.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:44:00 - [3050]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon

Except that there's no incentive for them to come down to our space.

What do we have to offer them? "Hey guys come and mine in 0.0, the market is kinda crappy, you might get ganked by a HAC gang, you might get camped into an outpost or POS and make no money tomorrow, if we get invaded all your assets might be locked away in a station and lost forever, and even if none of that happens you'll still be making less money than you could be by staying safely in highsec!"

What are 0.0 alliances supposed to offer to bring this mining army down to 0.0? Meet them out-of-game once every 3 months and give them candy floss and blowjobs?


I can already think about ways how to attract miners into 0.0, this is the least issue for me.

When there is a demand, supply will be created. The question still remains: Do I have an efective use for them?

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:45:00 - [3051]
 

Originally by: Mkiaki
Edited by: Mkiaki on 10/11/2009 20:43:52
EPIC TEAR THREAD IS EPIC!


Hawt dawm pirates and alliance leaders you guys can whine better than a carebear caught in low sec in their only mining ship.

This thread should be archived and brought back at any time you guys even hint at mentioning the term "crying".

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing


Thank you for the amazing, intelligent, and constructive posts (99% like the one above) they truly add well thought out, indepth perspective to the situation at hand.

....

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:46:00 - [3052]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Orthaen
Many new incentives are added. More rare minerals, more deadspace mods, more rats to make more money on.
More of the same minerals, which are already not worth-while to mine. More of them makes them even less worth-while.
More deadspace mods makes them less worth-while.
More rats makes no difference since they're no better than what you can get in highsec.
Quote:
The expansion adds more reasons for the alliances to recruit people that WANT to mine. This is a success, by the goals CCP put forth.
Yes, there's a reason to recruit miners, as long as they stay in highsec, where they can do some good. None of the goals set up by CCP are met.


I already covered this. I quit, after this...people dont bother to read. Yes, the ores are worthless TO YOU. CCP doesnt give a **** about you, random forum dweller. But those are ores are worthwile to miners. More deadspace mods make them worth less to the individual, but on the hole it is perfectly plausible more people will be making more isk. I'm not going to bother commenting on how rats in hisec are the same as 0.0 rats. If you think 400k is the same as 1.4 million, thats cool with me. Want to talk business in game? I have some magic beans to sell.

Mining in 0.0 is better then mining in hi sec. This matters to miners. Maybe not to you. Tough ****.

As to "all the big blobs are unahppy, it must be bad." I LAUGH AT YOU! The expansion was designed to **** them off, and forcibly remove some of their empires. CCP is unhappy with the size and the stagnation, so they made changes that are very directly designed to **** of all the big powerblocs, who are, in CCPs words, 95% military. Sounds like they met their goal, ****ed all the big armies right off.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:47:00 - [3053]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Kepakh
I am starting to develope an idea here.

While you transfer everthing into ISK/hour, one thing you overlook here is time value. That means that some people can work 'harder' for the same ISK...

What if you could spent /input random number here/ hours less by grinding because you have x miners in your 0.0 space to get all the minerals you need?


Except that there's no incentive for them to come down to our space.

What do we have to offer them? "Hey guys come and mine in 0.0, the market is kinda crappy, you might get ganked by a HAC gang, you might get camped into an outpost or POS and make no money tomorrow, if we get invaded all your assets might be locked away in a station and lost forever, and even if none of that happens you'll still be making less money than you could be by staying safely in highsec!"

What are 0.0 alliances supposed to offer to bring this mining army down to 0.0? Meet them out-of-game once every 3 months and give them candy floss and blowjobs?


This would be nice

Cefte
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:50:00 - [3054]
 

Originally by: Normin Bates
Originally by: Cefte


[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.


[x] Patently lazy and tear soaked goon.
[x] Unwilling to adapt.
[x] Fears losing vast areas of unused space.
[ ] Now seriously concerned about smaller alliances' ability to hold space.
[x] Hopes CCP will buckle under the tears posted here.
[ ] Is honest & genuine.

Fixed that for ya.


- It's me I'm patently lazy Cool
- I've literally just made an empire l4 running alt, gogo evolution.
- I visit every system in Goonswarm regions every three days. Gogo exploration!
- I'm not concerned about that at all. More pubbies to shoot would be great, but so would coca, and I just made myself coca. CCP seems to be concerned about it, though, and it's pretty funny how badly they're reliving Exodus, but you don't need to adhere to their vision to point out the gulf between vision and implementation.
- I have no hope that CCP will buckle under the tears here. When people in a position of massive authority start trolling their powerless critics, they're emotionally invested, and their ego will prevent them from backing down. This thread is more a pre-emptive 'we told you so'.
- Yassih, it's genu-wine Hires.

ep1k
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:50:00 - [3055]
 

Edited by: ep1k on 10/11/2009 22:52:36
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: ep1k

They could increase the isk rewards in null sec. That pretty much what this thread boils down too. People want to go to nullsec and make money, but people arent dumb. They dont want to risk dying to make equal or less money. Even if anomalies are the exact same income as level 4s you wont make the exact same money. Youll be taxed to pay upkeep, your ship will get blown up losing you money, and losing you time to replace it, which could be used to be making money, meaning you lose even more money.

If people thought they could make double or triple what they make doing level 4s they would flock to try to get to that. They would fight to try to get it, and this expansion would be a success. Sure not everyone would come, but many would.

You say nullsec ores are better. Sure some of them are sometimes. But then that ore just dosent turn into minerals when you look at it. Hauling refining and risk are all issues. Even when alliances want to take advantage of them. It only takes one ganker in a system to prevent that. Also the level 4 problem isnt just that it gives you more money than mining would Level 4 loot being refined into minerals is a very huge source of them. Running a level 4 is essentially mining with missiles.

Increase the null sec income potentials, drive people out to it. Make them want to stop running level 4s. Then there will be a gap where there loot was giving you minerals. Now maybe people will have a reason to mine.


Stop this crap already.

If anyone wants to live in 0.0, he's are already there and fund himself by missions/whatever flies your boat.
Increasing ratting rewards won't make anyone coming to 0.0, it will only make more ISK to current 0.0 inhabitans.

In fact, more profitable ratting means more PVP resulting in:
1) less profitable ratting
2) static 0.0 because everyone is ratting
2) static 0.0 because anyone who is not ratting is protecting the ratters leaving no aggresors

(half-serious on this one)



I never even mentioned ratting. Make the ore a bigger step above veld. Make anomalies not on par with level 4 but double. Give rewards that you want to fight to keep. Make it so making your income has risk and large payoffs. Noone here wants free isk. They want large isk that you die for. Would this cause more pvp? Yes it would. And your statement of wah wah we already make money doing level 4s is just idiotic. Thats the problem. You cant fight someone to hurt their income because its in motsu. You have no reason to take over someones space and gain thier previous rewards, because their rewards are in motsu. Tye high isk gain to owning space. Reduce the space you can control. Then we will have an interesting null sec. I am all for having less space for large alliances.

Tamahra
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:51:00 - [3056]
 

ccp need to postpone the sov changes.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:54:00 - [3057]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
I already covered this. I quit, after this...people dont bother to read. Yes, the ores are worthless TO YOU.
No. Look at the people posting: they're worthless in 0.0.
Quote:
But those are ores are worthwile to miners.
Only if someone is willing to take them off their hands…
Quote:
More deadspace mods make them worth less to the individual, but on the hole it is perfectly plausible more people will be making more isk.
On the whole, maybe, but it's the individual that needs to be incentivised.
Quote:
I'm not going to bother commenting on how rats in hisec are the same as 0.0 rats.
Not rats — missions. Remember, the increase in rats come from one source: more anomalies, which, as stated, will be on par with L4s (except not infinitely scalable). So yes, highsec will be the better choice.

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:56:00 - [3058]
 

YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:57:00 - [3059]
 

Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.


Originally by: Qlanth

No, once again we will go back to opportunity cost.

If I can make 20 million ISK running a cosmic anomaly (this is actually a fair estimate given current mechanics) or 35 million ISK belt ratting (I would also say this is a fair estimate given current mechanics), which should I chose? Belt ratting right? No matter how many cosmic anomalies I can have guaranteed to spawn, unless every single one of those is a top tier anomaly I should still be trying to maximize my ISK/hr by ratting in a belt.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:59:00 - [3060]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 23:02:31

Originally by: Tamahra
ccp need to postpone the sov changes.


Agreed. Postpone SOV changes - release everything else. Nothing has received the amount of negative response than these SOV proposed changes. Almost every other new feature in Dominion has been met with positive if not enthusiastic welcome. So why not just release the good - and work on polishing SOV more since many players clearly dislike these changes - whether they actually will work or not really doesn't matter at this point. Many players - especially null-sec players don't like these changes.





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