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Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:36:00 - [3001]
 

Originally by: Alice Celadon
The REAL problem hasn't been mentioned yet, and it's a simple economic one.

We don't sell our finished goods to NPCs in this game...they all go to other players. That means there is a mostly static pool of available ISK in the game which facilitates transactions. CCP just created a monumental ISK sink. Buckets of ISK are about to disappear every 14 days. What mechanic has been put in place to increase the influx of ISK? None.

Let me repeat this slowly, because I don't think people get this yet. Moon goo doesn't make ISK. Mining doesn't make ISK. T3 production doesn't make ISK. Bounties, mission rewards, and tags (sleeper belongings, etc.) are the ONLY things that make ISK, and these haven't been buffed in the slightest...but the availability of ISK in general is about to take a massive hit.

...

This means one of 3 things.

1. Massive isk generation mechanism CCP hasn't revealed yet.
2. 0.0 gets really abandoned, really quickly.
3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK.


Seriously CCP...don't you morons have an economist working for you? Walk down the freakin hall and ask him about this.



Insurance.

It transmute minerals into isk.

Ant that is the reason why minerals have a value. Without insurance they would be wort even less.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:37:00 - [3002]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Qlanth


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


We have an inconsistency. (Maybe. I didnt actually keep track of who exactly was complaining about what.) On one hand, there is no reason to mine trit in 0.0 because you can just make money ratting and import the stuff. On the other hand, 0.0 is SOOOO HARD because it takes so much work and logistics to import stuff and its unfair and totally not cool. Either import the stuff, and deal with the logistics, or mine it yourself and don't. The opportunity cost, as people here seem to be so fond of bringing up, of importing stuff is that...you have to do the importing. Perhaps a mining gang could spend less time to mine it themselves, and then in the time saved not hauling **** you could rat/whatever. Even more money!

And again, some people like mining. They dont want to rat all day every day.


And that is fine. They can mine all day but they need to realize their opportunity cost. I can be making 30 million ISK/hr ratting, but if I mine to make 15million ISK/hr, I am suffering a 15 million ISK opportunity cost.

And guess what? 0.0 alliances have been dealing with the logistics of importation from, literally, day one. People complain about this but no one expects CCP to start seeding 0.0 space with NPC goods.

The problem arises when people either fail or refuse to recognize that increase risk and increase in work maintaining that space should result in increased reward. CCP does recognize this because they are attempting to give us the incentive of being able increase the profitability of our space through sovereignty upgrades.

Except the upgrades are almost completely worthless and still do very little to address the issue of scalability of resources in 0.0. Level 4s are infinitely scalable. You can have essentially thousands of players running missions from the exact same agent in the exact same system. Every 0.0 system can hold at most 2 people.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:40:00 - [3003]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships.
That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts
Do you see the where you didn't manage to argue, disprove or contradict the point he made?
Originally by: Orthaen
Mining? Exploration? All the things dominion adds? These are all far superior to hi-sec.
…apart from the fact that a CCP representative has claimed that the only thing we have any actual info on will not be far superior — it will, in fact, be on par, at best, with the equivalent highsec activity.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:41:00 - [3004]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23

No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.


That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


Your argument doesn't make any sense because you are talking about one person running a Level 4 versus 10 people mining.

If I have 10 people running level 4s and using all of their profits to purchase Tritanium off of the market versus 10 people in Hulks mining out belts in 0.0 space the people running Level 4s will be able to produce more Tritanium by the end of the week. Its not a matter of opinion its a fact.

Do you really think if people could get more Tritanium faster by mining in 0.0 they wouldn't already be doing it? People strive in this game to make as much ISK as fast as they possibly can.

Mahke
Aeon Of Strife
Discord.
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:44:00 - [3005]
 

Edited by: Mahke on 10/11/2009 21:44:34
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Alice Celadon
The REAL problem hasn't been mentioned yet, and it's a simple economic one.

We don't sell our finished goods to NPCs in this game...they all go to other players. That means there is a mostly static pool of available ISK in the game which facilitates transactions. CCP just created a monumental ISK sink. Buckets of ISK are about to disappear every 14 days. What mechanic has been put in place to increase the influx of ISK? None.

Let me repeat this slowly, because I don't think people get this yet. Moon goo doesn't make ISK. Mining doesn't make ISK. T3 production doesn't make ISK. Bounties, mission rewards, and tags (sleeper belongings, etc.) are the ONLY things that make ISK, and these haven't been buffed in the slightest...but the availability of ISK in general is about to take a massive hit.

...

This means one of 3 things.

1. Massive isk generation mechanism CCP hasn't revealed yet.
2. 0.0 gets really abandoned, really quickly.
3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK.


Seriously CCP...don't you morons have an economist working for you? Walk down the freakin hall and ask him about this.



Insurance.

It transmute minerals into isk.

Ant that is the reason why minerals have a value. Without insurance they would be wort even less.


Confirmed that minerals --> insurance isk is going on on a massive scale atm.

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:44:00 - [3006]
 

Originally by: Verlisia


So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


If all those people running level 4s donated their isk to a collective pool they would be able to purchase more tritanium than if they spent the same amount of time mining it. Does this make sense to you or are you really just this dumb?

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:45:00 - [3007]
 

Mining in 0.0

1, MAX refinery in a pos structure is 75%, its irrelevant of skills.
2, People seem to think that all of nulsec belts are full of all the rare mins, again shows complete lack of knowledge, some region may have one or two systems that have special mins, and guess what. They like the rare moons are in the hands of the big alliances and thus it shall remain.

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:45:00 - [3008]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:48:00 - [3009]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships.
That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts
Do you see the where you didn't manage to argue, disprove or contradict the point he made?
Originally by: Orthaen
Mining? Exploration? All the things dominion adds? These are all far superior to hi-sec.
…apart from the fact that a CCP representative has claimed that the only thing we have any actual info on will not be far superior — it will, in fact, be on par, at best, with the equivalent highsec activity.


He said that there was only enough trit for maybe 2 or 3 battleships in an entire system. There's enough trit in one belt for a battleship usually. so under that thinking a system doesn't have enough for 2 or 3 it has enough to build nearly an equal to the number of belts in the system. Most systems have at least 4-6 belts so there's 4-6 battleships putting your mining operations in a system with 10 or more belts and having dedicated miners and industrialist exploiting them would produce a good quantities of ships every day.... and that's battle ships you can build a hell of alot more cruisers and battle cruisers for the same amount of materials as a single battle ship.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:50:00 - [3010]
 

Over 100 pages of WAHHHHH.

Awesome. I bet goons would be ultra rich if dominion paid any amount of isk per hour for *****ing.

Theres really two points made
That the new "sov" is too expensive for the benefits.
The individual in null doesnt make enough isk per hour.

Too this i say- A. deal with it, B. Stop being lazy and do something other then gate camp and maybe you will make some isk

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:51:00 - [3011]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 10/11/2009 21:55:40
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.
…or, as people have been trying to get across, just clonejump back to empire and do infinite amounts of L4s to get the same level of income. So no, it will not require a more diverse skill set — it just requires that people spend less time in 0.0, contrary to the goals of the patch.
Originally by: Verlisia
He said that there was only enough trit for maybe 2 or 3 battleships in an entire system. There's enough trit in one belt for a battleship usually.
Ok, so you didn't see the crucial detail where what you said didn't in any way comment on what he said.

He said there wasn't enough trit in a nullsec system.
You said there was enough trit in a highsec belt.

In other words, here too, the best way to provide resources for your 0.0 empire will be not to be in 0.0, but in empire, contrary to the stated goals of the patch.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:52:00 - [3012]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.


Not when you have an unlimited strawberry called empire.

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:53:00 - [3013]
 

Edited by: Orthaen on 10/11/2009 21:57:49
Originally by: Qlanth


And that is fine. They can mine all day but they need to realize their opportunity cost. I can be making 30 million ISK/hr ratting, but if I mine to make 15million ISK/hr, I am suffering a 15 million ISK opportunity cost.

And guess what? 0.0 alliances have been dealing with the logistics of importation from, literally, day one. People complain about this but no one expects CCP to start seeding 0.0 space with NPC goods.

The problem arises when people either fail or refuse to recognize that increase risk and increase in work maintaining that space should result in increased reward. CCP does recognize this because they are attempting to give us the incentive of being able increase the profitability of our space through sovereignty upgrades.

Except the upgrades are almost completely worthless and still do very little to address the issue of scalability of resources in 0.0. Level 4s are infinitely scalable. You can have essentially thousands of players running missions from the exact same agent in the exact same system. Every 0.0 system can hold at most 2 people.


The point I was making that alliances dont HAVE to deal with the hell of importing, at least not to the same degree. You can make 30 mil/hour ratting compared to the 15 mil/hour of Veldspar, but the trit you buy has to get to 0.0 somehow. Someone in your alliance imports it. Instead, the 2 of you could mine veldspar for an hour, make 15 million, then save 2 hours importing, and then rat for 2 hours and make 30 million each. Yes, Qlanth has made less isk, but GoonSwarm has made more isk. The focus of Dominion is on cooperation between alliance members to succeed, supposedly. By making jump bridges so much more expensive, and mining much viable they seem to be succeeding. Because eventually, the monkey you've got spending all of his time importing so YOU can make more ISK is going to quit, and then you'll be ****ed.. Well, not you...Goons will always have a long line of willing monkey-recruits. But, ya know...other alliances.

Also, bull dung "the only upgrade we know about is only on par with empire" All upgrades are currently on SiSi. That means you can test every single upgrade if you want. Mining, at the very least provides 43 million/hour in a meager hulk, not counting hauling time. In hi-sec, you're looking at 10 million. No difference? No incentive for to work towards 0.0?

Can't speak for Radar/Magnetometric/Ladar sites. I assume they're more profitable in 0.0, purely from rat bounties. 6/10-10/10 plexes are also worth less then 2/10 plexes, hmm? I think a lot of the people complaining about how much better hi-sec is havent spent much time in hisec.
I've already covered level 4s. More then 0.0 is open to debate, I suppose. I dont see how...a single officer drop from ratting and you're in the lead by a long shot. Yes, they make money. Yes, they're boring. If all you want to do is make ISK, then become a trader and quit your *****ing. Games are about FUN. That includes FUN ways of making isk. Lets do more opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of you having fun in 0.0 is marginally less isk then running level 4s. If the fun isnt worth it to you, then get out of 0.0. Make more room for the people that want to play the game.

Quote:

Mining in 0.0

1, MAX refinery in a pos structure is 75%, its irrelevant of skills.
2, People seem to think that all of nulsec belts are full of all the rare mins, again shows complete lack of knowledge


Dont use a POS, or deal with it. Arkonor-25% is still far superionr to veldspar. So is bistot. And crokite. And mercoxit. After that, maybe.

Have you ever scanned down a grav site in 0.0? They ARE all filled with rare minerals. And ****, this is Stain, with a trusec of like -0.03. The grav upgrade upgrades quantity, and almost certainly, quality. Tada, you only have to mine ABC ores.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:55:00 - [3014]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23

No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.


That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


Your argument doesn't make any sense because you are talking about one person running a Level 4 versus 10 people mining.

If I have 10 people running level 4s and using all of their profits to purchase Tritanium off of the market versus 10 people in Hulks mining out belts in 0.0 space the people running Level 4s will be able to produce more Tritanium by the end of the week. Its not a matter of opinion its a fact.

Do you really think if people could get more Tritanium faster by mining in 0.0 they wouldn't already be doing it? People strive in this game to make as much ISK as fast as they possibly can.


you may make more in a hr that way but you have to deal with the logistics of moving the minerals and the risk is higher (usually) when you have to move goods through several jumps than and it takes time to do that as well in which your not earning any isk at all. Plus why do you need all that isk anyway whats the point in having 5 billion isk when you only fly sub capitol ships (talking myself here) I don't need to worry about tons of isk to suppliment my losses i just work on taking fewer losses so i don't have to grind missions or isk to support a pvp habit.

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:56:00 - [3015]
 

Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.


I think they're more whining that the neopolitan is made of strawberry, mud, and snow when it should be made of strawberry, choc, and vanilla.

****ing whining goons I make my ice cream from your tears

Tesal
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:00:00 - [3016]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 10/11/2009 22:02:50
Originally by: Qlanth
And that is fine. They can mine all day but they need to realize their opportunity cost. I can be making 30 million ISK/hr ratting, but if I mine to make 15million ISK/hr, I am suffering a 15 million ISK opportunity cost.

And guess what? 0.0 alliances have been dealing with the logistics of importation from, literally, day one. People complain about this but no one expects CCP to start seeding 0.0 space with NPC goods.

The problem arises when people either fail or refuse to recognize that increase risk and increase in work maintaining that space should result in increased reward. CCP does recognize this because they are attempting to give us the incentive of being able increase the profitability of our space through sovereignty upgrades.

Except the upgrades are almost completely worthless and still do very little to address the issue of scalability of resources in 0.0. Level 4s are infinitely scalable. You can have essentially thousands of players running missions from the exact same agent in the exact same system. Every 0.0 system can hold at most 2 people.


Ok, now you are just whining and repeating yourself.

Stop crying.

*edit
Hey, here is an idea, fly your T3 cruiser gang into a wormhole with your fancy new wormhole generator upgrades, rat your brains out, then jump back home with your loot.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:02:00 - [3017]
 

Quote:

Mining? Exploration? All the things dominion adds? These are all far superior to hi-sec. Despite complaints that mining in 0.0 is worthless, it is far far far better then mining in hi-sec. Veldspar comes in at 81 isk/m3. Arkonor rocks out at 481 isk/m3. Gneiss, Dark Ochre, Bistot, Crokite, Spodumain, and Mercoxit are all also noticeably more valuable to a miner then veldspar and hi-sec ores.



Then how comes that all those (few systems a region or so that is) ABC roids stay idle, while CCP had to raise the respawn or "lol income" tritanium in high sec? Expecially after they banned most miner bots?





For my question: how do the expansion changes entice my Empire based alt corp to move to 0.0? Because if this is the expansion intent, I don't see... why.

Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:02:00 - [3018]
 

Why do people assume that every 0.0 system or even constellation can be self sustaining mineral wise for production, its so far from the truth its laughable.

I say again the majority of 0.0 systems do not have all the mins.

Also to have an effective industry do you realise how many more pos's need to be put up for all the needed construction arrays, that of course then need fueling... all this just to try and be on level par with empire manufacturing, which it wont ever be from the base loss of 25% of your minerals from pos refining your ore... wonder how many also realise that refining in a pos ISN'T instant either, thus more pos's to refine quickly enough.

For those trying to argue that non logistically supported 0.0 manufacturing is even remotely on par with empire needs to get there head out there ass and learn some facts.

Banlish
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:06:00 - [3019]
 

My replies in red, because I feel like it

Originally by: ServantOfMask

Originally by: McDaddy Pimp



For "peaceful" type alliance.
1. System wide taxation of rat bounties. A percentage of each rat bounties will go to the system owners, and these can also be set to percentage based on standings etc. Blues pay 5%, neutral 10%, reds 20% etc.


except every (NBSI) alliance will set non-blue taxes to 100%.

Or CCP could make it so that the most in system ratting by an ALLIANCE can be set is 20% so it can't be abused and even enemies can rat your space, just call ratting by anyone not in alliance "unknown" so people can't be locator agented.


Originally by: McDaddy Pimp


CVA wont go bankrupt and we probally will see more CVA-type alliance.


they shat out outposts left and right, maybe they deserve to go bankrupt. "too big to fail" sound familiar?


They shat out outposts in the WORST region of space (seriously even IMMENSEA and PUREBLIND have better resources) and they turned it into a 0.0 mecha for anyone that could abide by the rules. They litterally took a region that has the economics of low sec and turned it into something that most everyone in this game can respect. That isn't 'to big to fail' it's hard work in a crappy place that shouldn't be punished.



Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:07:00 - [3020]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


Qlanth is right on this one.
I understand your point of view and I guess this is what CCP wanted to do with 0.0 but..

Example situation:
I am looking for someone to build ships for me and I have 2 options:

1) Ship manufacturer with perfect skills who can rat/mission for 30M/hour and trade it for minerals worth 30M/hour.
2) Ship manufacturer with perfect skills who can mine minerals worth 15M/hour.

I have no reason to hire a miner unless I hire 2 of them instead of 1 mission runners.

What are the benefits of hiring the miners? Next to none.
(miners might be actually cheaper workers...?)

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:07:00 - [3021]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:11:12
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:09:34
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:09:10
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally by: Verlisia


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


Your argument doesn't make any sense because you are talking about one person running a Level 4 versus 10 people mining.

If I have 10 people running level 4s and using all of their profits to purchase Tritanium off of the market versus 10 people in Hulks mining out belts in 0.0 space the people running Level 4s will be able to produce more Tritanium by the end of the week. Its not a matter of opinion its a fact.

Do you really think if people could get more Tritanium faster by mining in 0.0 they wouldn't already be doing it? People strive in this game to make as much ISK as fast as they possibly can.


you may make more in a hr that way but you have to deal with the logistics of moving the minerals and the risk is higher (usually) when you have to move goods through several jumps than and it takes time to do that as well in which your not earning any isk at all. Plus why do you need all that isk anyway whats the point in having 5 billion isk when you only fly sub capitol ships (talking myself here) I don't need to worry about tons of isk to suppliment my losses i just work on taking fewer losses so i don't have to grind missions or isk to support a pvp habit.


Lets say I imposed a race on 20 players split into two groups of 10.

They each had 7 days to gather as much Tritanium as possible and put it in my home system of C3N.

One group decides to mine it with hulks right inside the C3N system, which is a refinery. The other group decides to run Level 4 missions, buy the Tritanium from Empire with ISk and import it to 0.0 space using freighters or jump freighters.

What would be the outcome? Every hour the miners would gathering 15 million ISK of tritanium. Every hour the mission runner would be gathering 30 million ISK of tritanium. After 3 and a half days of this competition the mission runners will have so much tritanium that the other team will not be able to catch up in the remaining 3 and a half days.

So after, say, 5 days the mission runners stop and begin importing their tritanium. By the 7th day they will have all their tritanium in the system. Even though the miners never left C3N and even though the miners had to import it in the end the risk and work of importing gives a better reward.

e: Edited this post so that it didnt get cut off

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:09:00 - [3022]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
you may make more in a hr that way but you have to deal with the logistics of moving the minerals and the risk is higher (usually) when you have to move goods through several jumps than and it takes time to do that as well in which your not earning any isk at all.
No, what you do is that you also use the minerals in highsec to build, say, ships. Suddenly, those ~200,000m³ worth of minerals that go into building an Abaddon becomes a… well, Abaddon, which only requires 50,000m³ to move (and can even move by its own, if you can't find a hauler). By keeping the process in highsec for as long as possible, you increase the return on your time, you improve on your manufacturing capabilities, and you decrease the logistical requirements.

Ore compression ftw.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:09:00 - [3023]
 

Originally by: Niamota Olin
Why do people assume that every 0.0 system or even constellation can be self sustaining mineral wise for production, its so far from the truth its laughable.

I say again the majority of 0.0 systems do not have all the mins.

Also to have an effective industry do you realise how many more pos's need to be put up for all the needed construction arrays, that of course then need fueling... all this just to try and be on level par with empire manufacturing, which it wont ever be from the base loss of 25% of your minerals from pos refining your ore... wonder how many also realise that refining in a pos ISN'T instant either, thus more pos's to refine quickly enough.

For those trying to argue that non logistically supported 0.0 manufacturing is even remotely on par with empire needs to get there head out there ass and learn some facts.


We use our pos's to build stuffs as well we don't refine in them obviously but yes the whole chain of production is a pain in the ass for any one or 4 people that's why you have people who handle each step independently of each other while still working together. we have one team who focus on gathering one on reprocessing and moving stuff that needs to be moved and one that handles production and if you keep your arrays in constant use by several people you can get alot done within a fair amount of time. each team is made up of several people so that the resonsiblilites are spread out and on one person going idle breaks the chain. Then there's a whole other group that handles the pos's and other stuff that needs to be done as well.

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:14:00 - [3024]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

Mining? Exploration? All the things dominion adds? These are all far superior to hi-sec. Despite complaints that mining in 0.0 is worthless, it is far far far better then mining in hi-sec. Veldspar comes in at 81 isk/m3. Arkonor rocks out at 481 isk/m3. Gneiss, Dark Ochre, Bistot, Crokite, Spodumain, and Mercoxit are all also noticeably more valuable to a miner then veldspar and hi-sec ores.



Then how comes that all those (few systems a region or so that is) ABC roids stay idle, while CCP had to raise the respawn or "lol income" tritanium in high sec? Expecially after they banned most miner bots?



Because the miners are in hi-sec, mining veldspar. if they come near the ABC roids, they get BLOWN UP. That is the 0.0 alliances choice, to restrict access to their space to people they consider a viable asset, i.e. combat pilots. In return, they have to deal with importing everything from hisec. Again, that is their choice. The changes in dominion add a greater incentive to mine the stuff yourself, by greatly increasing mineral quantity in 0.0, and increasing the cost of import.

As to production in 0.0...yes, all systems to do have minerals to support production...in Dominion. Thats what the expansion does.
As I mentioned, if you cant deal with the POS refine rates, refine in an NPC station, or get an outpost. About manufacturing slots in 0.0...yes, they could use a buffing. But, you're greatly overestimating how many POSes you'd need to manufacture in 0.0. One POS could put out 6-9 BSes every 3 hours or so. One POS could produce an enormous amount of modules, somewhere around 100 manufacturing slots. The same applies to ammo, and smaller ships. The only real concern is BSes and cap ships, and if your alliance needs more then 30 BSes a day, well...get a second POS. Big deal.

For the nine hundredth time, if you want to stay in empire running level 4s, nothing CCP will do can change your mind. The game is yours to play how you choose.

Honest Smedley
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:16:00 - [3025]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself.

Unless, of course, you limit NPC/plexing resources such that not everyone can be doing it at any given time. By doing so, even though the amount earned mining will still be less per hour than when ratting, 0.0 will then require a more diverse skill set among your alliance members to fully exploit the space you live in.

People are basically arguing that there isn't enough strawberry (ratting) in the neopolitan ice cream that is 0.0 space.

Not when you have an unlimited strawberry called empire.

...and that is where people are wrong.
Empire missioning is vanilla; safe, predictable, always available and boring.
Some people do prefer vanilla, however.

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:16:00 - [3026]
 

Originally by: Qlanth

Lets say I imposed a race on 20 players split into two groups of 10.

They each had 7 days to gather as much Tritanium as possible and put it in my home system of C3N.

One group decides to mine it with hulks right inside the C3N system, which is a refinery. The other group decides to run Level 4 missions, buy the Tritanium from Empire with ISk and import it to 0.0 space using freighters or jump freighters.

What would be the outcome? Every hour the miners would gathering 15 million ISK of tritanium. Every hour the mission runner would be gathering 30 million ISK of tritanium. After 3 and a half days of this competition the mission runners will have so much tritanium that the other team will not be able to catch up in the remaining 3 and a half days.

So after, say, 5 days the mission runners stop and begin importing their tritanium. By the 7th day they will have all their tritanium in the system. Even though the miners never left C3N and even though the miners had to import it in the end the risk and work of importing gives a better reward.

e: Edited this post so that it didnt get cut off


I am starting to develope an idea here.

While you transfer everthing into ISK/hour, one thing you overlook here is time value. That means that some people can work 'harder' for the same ISK...

What if you could spent /input random number here/ hours less by grinding because you have x miners in your 0.0 space to get all the minerals you need?

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:17:00 - [3027]
 

Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Verlisia
So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


Qlanth is right on this one.
I understand your point of view and I guess this is what CCP wanted to do with 0.0 but..

Example situation:
I am looking for someone to build ships for me and I have 2 options:

1) Ship manufacturer with perfect skills who can rat/mission for 30M/hour and trade it for minerals worth 30M/hour.
2) Ship manufacturer with perfect skills who can mine minerals worth 15M/hour.

I have no reason to hire a miner unless I hire 2 of them instead of 1 mission runners.

What are the benefits of hiring the miners? Next to none.
(miners might be actually cheaper workers...?)



most miners i know who stick with industry eventually turn into producers ... mining may only make you 15 mill an hr in some cases but you neglect the fact that we can take those minerals that can build things that will sell for a much nicer profit aka i build one item that costs only 60k to build each and eventually sell them for over 500k a piece in one of the major trade hubs... so yes it may be less right now at that moment but it translates into a very nice profit margin when it sells off to the people who grind for 30 mill an hr.

i usually play an hr to 2 a day everyother day of the week and i can clear 200 mill a week with only about 6-10 hrs of game time a week is mining so bad at that rate?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:18:00 - [3028]
 

Originally by: Orthaen
For the nine hundredth time, if you want to stay in empire running level 4s, nothing CCP will do can change your mind. The game is yours to play how you choose.
True, but that's also the core of the complaint: contrary to the stated goals, Dominion does nothing to change this — quite the opposite. No incentives are added to move out. In fact, by the looks of things, it rather provides further incentives to move to highsec to maintain that 0.0 empire…

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:21:00 - [3029]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
most miners i know who stick with industry eventually turn into producers ... mining may only make you 15 mill an hr in some cases but you neglect the fact that we can take those minerals that can build things that will sell for a much nicer profit aka i build one item that costs only 60k to build each and eventually sell them for over 500k a piece in one of the major trade hubs... so yes it may be less right now at that moment but it translates into a very nice profit margin when it sells off to the people who grind for 30 mill an hr.

i usually play an hr to 2 a day everyother day of the week and i can clear 200 mill a week with only about 6-10 hrs of game time a week is mining so bad at that rate?


Wheter you have manufacturing skills or not is irrelevant since you will get the shiip build by alliance in a way or another. It is just a matter of factory slot.

It boils down to that you will need to cut your profits if it has to make any sense...which is turning you back to ISK/hour.

Dante Edmundo
Posted - 2009.11.10 22:23:00 - [3030]
 

Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:26:48

Well - I'll take comfort in the fact that I attempted to do something before the train wreck.

As for me, I ain't going to null-sec any time soon. And I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the only one in hi-sec that is thinking same.



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