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KeratinBoy
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:41:00 - [2971]
 

Dear CCP,

There have been a lot of words about your proposed changes. Mostly, they point out the proposed changes will have the opposite effect to the aim of the design document.

Or, to put it succinctly, Jade Constantine thinks the proposed changes are a good idea. Jade. Constantine.

The ISK/hour question is a good one. Why do people move to dangerous places when they can stay at home? The money. Always and forever. What, precisely, is the problem with nullsec being more profitable than empire for the individual? Things still need exporting and importing.

Quite frankly, who cares if empire mission farmers get huffy if ratting in nullsec makes better money? Either they dip their toe in 0.0 or they stick with farming missions to pimp dat raven, at the same rate they have been doing for years.

Or is the Dominion trailer a HD advert for rescuing that Damsel in 5.1?

Mithrasith
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:42:00 - [2972]
 

Despite the fact that this will be either the bottom of page 99 or top of 100, I figured I would drop in my 2 cents as well.

I was originally FOR Dominion. The proposal sounded great as 0.0 was becoming a stale NAP fest, with massive fleet battles and hot drops becoming "average". Dreads have become the staple of fleets, the modern day equivalent of the BS. Something had to be done.

However, having read the proposal, Im quite worried. Its possible that CCP has a few tricks up their sleeve to make this all work, but I would like to echo a few sentiments of others on this thread, and no I dont come from a big alliance currently, but I have been in large alliances before.

1)As a player, I went to 0.0 to make ISK FOR MYSELF. Call me what you will, but I also enjoyed PVP'ing, running with gangs etc, but the primary motivation is so that I could become rich, and to a certain extent I did (not 100's of billions mind you but wealthy enough). If the changes are geared at "taxing" work of players so that corporations can become wealthy and distribute the funds down and/or pay fees, sorry, Im not interested. Most likely Ill widdle away my time in Empire to see if the changes will reverse course, and if not, resign my accounts. This isnt an EMO rage quit or anything of the sort, like I said I was very much in favour of Dominion, but from what Im hearing, I cannot possibly become a wealthy player under this new system in 0.0 (and I hate running missions in Empire).

2) Other players are absolutely right regarding faction loot and plexes. I have an empire alt not in the alliance strictly designed to get faction gear from a null sec bridge point to empire to sell it. The Corp gets 0 taxes out of the situation, and quite frankly I dont care. If the thinking is the corp will set taxes to 100% to acheive all funds from bounties, and then whatever a player gets out of faction gear they get to keep, think again.
A) There isnt enough plexes and faction gear to go around, and
B) Even if there was enough faction gear to go around it would sink prices to the point that it wouldnt be profitable.

3) Mining? The ISK they yield is next to nothing. Logistics are a PITA. Not only that but if you have many splintered alliances of smallish nature, a large percentage are going to be stuck without a bridge system to Empire, and thus, transporting the materials to Empire where they are useful wont happen. Local markets? Unlikely. Risk vs Reward isnt there

4) Professional sites? Useless. Radar sites used to be quite lucrative once upon a time, but with the current attributes of the Data interfaces (being that they never decay nor are they destroyed) there is little to no incentive to run the Radar sites, nor mag sites, nor grav sites

5) Anomolies? They might be ok for your average newer player, as their cost requirements arent the same, but overall they dont yield a lot of isk, and certainly not enough to fuel the demand of the corporation, alliance and individual player.

Perhaps its CCP's theory that the amount of money each player should have is significantly less than what it is currently. Combined with the reduction in price for T2 materials, maybe they feel each player will need less isk, thus yield needs to be less. Combined with a view that capitals should be rare and not common and not owned by the individual player, in their mind it might balance out. If that's the case, its not something Im interested in.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:43:00 - [2973]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray

No you said "I dont need to do anything, the afk-ISK-from-thin-air will fund me everything: from SOV, to POS to stations to ships." And thats far far from some isk for a few specific shiptypes on a few specific ops.


Yes i wrote that. And yes it does fund SOV, POSes. And it also does fund ships in reimbursement mode. If it doesnt reimburse ones you fly or alliance reimburses crap that is not needed i guess thats the problem of said alliance? Back in Tri we had caps and dictors reimbursement program. Considering we had MUCH less moons than any other alliance in the list and we could replace all losses i dare to ask - who pockets the surplus of isk? Especially when their ship losses werent that heavy over past months? And if the isk goes into supercap production - it is still going towards ships, amrite?

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:43:00 - [2974]
 

Edited by: Mkiaki on 10/11/2009 20:43:52
EPIC TEAR THREAD IS EPIC!


Hawt dawm pirates and alliance leaders you guys can whine better than a carebear caught in low sec in their only mining ship.

This thread should be archived and brought back at any time you guys even hint at mentioning the term "crying".

LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Oosha
Minmatar
Kinetic Vector
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:44:00 - [2975]
 

soo, after playing EVE for while.....

when will the beta test finish??

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:47:00 - [2976]
 

people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.


Niamota Olin
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:48:00 - [2977]
 

Originally by: Sen Roo
Originally by: Niamota Olin
The essence of complaints is simple.

dominion will turn people who enjoy pvping in 0.0 into pve'ers due to the need of isk from individuals.


Um no. The Dominion expansion is not going going to force PvPers into PvErs. What you are going to have to do is recruit some industrial corps into your nullsec space and use your Mad PvP skill
z to safe guard them while they make you isk and build your ships. Kinda like in real life the military guards the borders of a nation so its citizens can live and work in peace. Oh and those who are complaining and saying that Dominion won't work? Unless you give at least one constructive idea for fixing what they are doing you all are just *****ing and whining.Rolling Eyes


Have you ever tried protecting industrialists in 0.0?
Here is how it works, you either sit in a belt with them for hours preventing an attack. No pvp happens as your guard is effective thus boredom, or you and your indies die from a stronger attack force thus no isk made.
Protecting bears in 0.0 = boredom for pvpers or death and destruction thus no isk.

Most of my suggestion i think are in the 80 page range of this thread, I supported alternative routes of isk income, or reduced running costs on systems based on system use and development. As well as an exponential increase in system sov to stop huge empires combined with perks for holding constelations to stop an alt alliance system developing.
My statement you picked out was in reference to try and explain why people are putting so much feedback (whining/tears/whatever) on this thread. 0.0 is lawless space supposed to be the pvp playground, its been broken for years with only the really large alliances having the good moon goo and they now sit happily with huge cap fleets laughing about how everyone is gonna loose cyno protection.
Goons and other big guys will gain most from these upgrades, so they loose sov over large expanses of space... SO what?
doesn't stop them having the physical benefits they have got from all the years previous, and kudos to most to them for pointing out why this patch fails in its aims.
Who is gonna wanna come out to 0.0 when it costs a fortune AND your at the mercy of these now free to roam wherever cap fleets.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:50:00 - [2978]
 

There's a lot of complaints on these 99 pages..... Some of them have legitimacy, a lot of them are trolls, but most of them are people just venting fear and frustration about changes they have little control over and poor understanding of... This is understandable, as eve is a game these people have invested significants amount of time and effort into. But change isn't always a bad thing, we agree the sov system is broken, and this is a legit attempt to fix it. Thank you for your work ccp, please keep it up, and please keep us informed!!

On another note, I have a random question to address the costs associated with sovereignty. While I've lived in null-sec for about 9 months, I'll admit I don't know a lot about POS activities (I just pewpew). Given the income from R16 moons & R32 moons, in a decent constellation of 7 systems, what percentage of these resources would be left available for individuals to capitalize on after the alliance takes enough resources to cover the sov operating costs of the constellation?

A reasonable figure in my head would leave somewhere between 40-70% of these resources for individual members, depending on distribution of the resources (if its more distributed, then more should be left for the individuals).

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:52:00 - [2979]
 

Originally by: Alice Celadon
The REAL problem hasn't been mentioned yet, and it's a simple economic one.

We don't sell our finished goods to NPCs in this game...they all go to other players. That means there is a mostly static pool of available ISK in the game which facilitates transactions. CCP just created a monumental ISK sink. Buckets of ISK are about to disappear every 14 days. What mechanic has been put in place to increase the influx of ISK? None.

Let me repeat this slowly, because I don't think people get this yet. Moon goo doesn't make ISK. Mining doesn't make ISK. T3 production doesn't make ISK. Bounties, mission rewards, and tags (sleeper belongings, etc.) are the ONLY things that make ISK, and these haven't been buffed in the slightest...but the availability of ISK in general is about to take a massive hit.

...

This means one of 3 things.

1. Massive isk generation mechanism CCP hasn't revealed yet.
2. 0.0 gets really abandoned, really quickly.
3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK.


Seriously CCP...don't you morons have an economist working for you? Walk down the freakin hall and ask him about this.


omg. its even worse than I thought.

Emergency solution -- double 0.0 rat spawns or watch the game die. LOL!

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:53:00 - [2980]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




You fail.

Minerals are not free. Its costs time just like ratting.

Optimise your isk/time.

Graysteel
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:56:00 - [2981]
 

I thought the whole point for Dominion was to generate a purpose for the alliances in 0.0 to have a need for the carebear corps, not so much turn the PvP corps into carebears. When I first read the blogs I thought it would be great to give those PvP's someone to defend, not just pixils on the screen but some one on the other side (I mean it is a massively multiplayer game after all right?). I know a lot of carebears that dont care to pvp but are more then willing to generate industry, expand faction warefare, and create economies.

Being a carebear, I welcome the idea of my industrial corp being needed for the survival of an alliance. And in turn I enjoy the idea of having (needing) a pvp backbone to protect (and attack enemy space )not just the sov of a system but the people in it. Now the pvpers have more meaning then just being called up for some blob battle or some pos bashing. I doubt that those pvpers will have much time to farm isk via mining or ratting and will need to rely on the indutrial corps to generate the isk for the alliance. Perhaps the alliance should hire their pvpers to do what they enjoy. (Hey now you dont have to farm isk at all you get paid to do what you like to do, shoot things, probably as soon as you log on to when you log off.)

I dont think that alliance will rely soly on the tax income from rat farming or moon goo but perhaps more from the economies that are generated in their systems by their industrial corps (who are protected by not only the pvpers but also the pve'ers, becuase i konw i dont want to shoot pvpers or rats in my hulk i more then welcome those pvper/pve'er to shoot them for me). Just think you attract enough renters or locals or even neighboring alliances that make your system a mini jita which now you are generating income off of.

In short i think the devs are doing what they intended. Making it so if you want to own space you will have to include all aspecs of the game. The pvpers wont have to farm isk but rely on the industrials who in turn rely on the pvper and the pve'er to make things go boom. Also your industrial corps will be create local economies that passer bys or renters will buy from.

Maybe im wrong but i think that is what everyone wanted, pvpers didnt want to farm, pve'er wanted to farm, both want to be part of social group that can come on and have fun competing with their neighbors both economically and militarly.

Mkiaki
Gallente
Progressive Business Solutions
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:56:00 - [2982]
 

TEARS, so many lovely tears from pirates... ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked

gambrinous
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:57:00 - [2983]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Shawna Gray

No you said "I dont need to do anything, the afk-ISK-from-thin-air will fund me everything: from SOV, to POS to stations to ships." And thats far far from some isk for a few specific shiptypes on a few specific ops.


Yes i wrote that. And yes it does fund SOV, POSes. And it also does fund ships in reimbursement mode. If it doesnt reimburse ones you fly or alliance reimburses crap that is not needed i guess thats the problem of said alliance? Back in Tri we had caps and dictors reimbursement program. Considering we had MUCH less moons than any other alliance in the list and we could replace all losses i dare to ask - who pockets the surplus of isk? Especially when their ship losses werent that heavy over past months? And if the isk goes into supercap production - it is still going towards ships, amrite?


so now you're blanket stating that any alliance that doesn't fully fund every single ship loss is mismanaged and ripping off its members?

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:57:00 - [2984]
 

Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:57:00 - [2985]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 07/11/2009 00:31:57
Originally by: Vivian Azure
And again... a system will cost 2 billion ISK a month with a few upgrades.

If you have 10 players, each of them has to pay a laughable 7 million ISK a day to pay this bill.

Stop whining.


Vivian has a point. 2 billion divided amongst 10 players for a period of 30 days and each day is around 6.5-7million a day. Wow, that's like shooting...what, 8-10 Battleships in Providence space? (In belts mind you). Its not really that bad. Though the upgrades I agree need to be looked over, but I believe CCP might have forgotten the belt-related ones....unless they have no intention of fixing those. (I hope not btw...)

Further edit: Btw, that's with 10 FREAKING PEOPLE. Imagine around 50 which is about the minimum any alliance is going to need to take any system in any 0.0 space. A whopping 1.5million a day. OH NO, 2 RATS!!!!!!!!!!

sheesh, work together for once, I think that's what 0.0 lacks right now, wayyyy too much solo within corps/alliances, not enough working together.

--Isaac


Yea.. but how crowded will that system be? Will it be possible to rat in a system with 15 belts and 100 players crammed in there? How many BS will be left to kill?

Kepakh
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:58:00 - [2986]
 


There is a new build on test server >.>


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.10 20:59:00 - [2987]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc.

Fixed that typo for you.


Lol you are not "special" if you can make some isk in 0.0. But if you are smart you put your monemaking char where he can do an optimal job, and thats in empire.


No, if you are "smart" you make better than level 4's do by actually leveraging what 0.0 has to offer that empire does not. It is'nt that hard to make better money in 0.0 but you have to apply yourself to it, which most people are unwilling to do. Level 4's are just easier to do without really paying attention.

This is irrelevant though, as personal income levels will be vastly improved in Dominion. So much so that any knuckle head that can hit F1-F10 will be able to make level 4 income (and feel like he has finally become smart).

Cefte
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:00:00 - [2988]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.



[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:00:00 - [2989]
 

Originally by: Graysteel

Being a carebear, I welcome the idea of my industrial corp being needed for the survival of an alliance. And in turn I enjoy the idea of having (needing) a pvp backbone to protect (and attack enemy space )not just the sov of a system but the people in it. Now the pvpers have more meaning then just being called up for some blob battle or some pos bashing. I doubt that those pvpers will have much time to farm isk via mining or ratting and will need to rely on the indutrial corps to generate the isk for the alliance. Perhaps the alliance should hire their pvpers to do what they enjoy. (Hey now you dont have to farm isk at all you get paid to do what you like to do, shoot things, probably as soon as you log on to when you log off.)


That sounds good in theory but dominion wont do that. The carebears wont have a reason to joins such an alliance in dominion.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:07:00 - [2990]
 

Edited by: Shawna Gray on 10/11/2009 21:07:34
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Lol. Pretty much everyone who can't cut it in 0.0 has a empire alt to make isk, or at the very least rats/mines etc.

Fixed that typo for you.


Lol you are not "special" if you can make some isk in 0.0. But if you are smart you put your monemaking char where he can do an optimal job, and thats in empire.


No, if you are "smart" you make better than level 4's do by actually leveraging what 0.0 has to offer that empire does not. It is'nt that hard to make better money in 0.0 but you have to apply yourself to it, which most people are unwilling to do. Level 4's are just easier to do without really paying attention.

This is irrelevant though, as personal income levels will be vastly improved in Dominion. So much so that any knuckle head that can hit F1-F10 will be able to make level 4 income (and feel like he has finally become smart).



BS. A moneymaking char in empire can do much more and can be available to do so when you are on pvp ops with your other char as you dont have to pay attention to local. You can trade, mission, do invention etc on a char to combine passive and active income in empire. The top markets are in empire, and the safety means you can do everything semi-afk in multibillionisk ships and still not lose any. The good part of 0.0 is the moongold and thats alliance level income, not personal income.

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:08:00 - [2991]
 

Originally by: Cefte

[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.



The real problem here is that people are too lazy to train everything. If they did they could mine every mineral and build every ship themselves so they'd be free in fact with insurance they'd actually make money with every ship they lost who's laughing now stoopid PvPers

Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:14:00 - [2992]
 

There's a larger problem with the whole PvPers should defend industrial corps idea. People play this off as some sort of brilliant new idea, but it's been done before many times. Remember ASCN and who knows how many other alliances? Every time, it fails for the same reasons. The carebears rarely contribute sufficient amounts to the alliance to justify their defense, or it ends up being perceived by the PvPers as such. The success of the carebears leads to more carebears joining with the sole objective of making money rather than contributing, leading to further dilution of identity. Finally, when they experience any real pressure the normal response is a relatively collapse as the two groups within the alliance get angry at each other and go separate ways.

Normin Bates
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:16:00 - [2993]
 

Originally by: Cefte


[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.


[x] Patently lazy and tear soaked goon.
[x] Unwilling to adapt.
[x] Fears losing vast areas of unused space.
[ ] Now seriously concerned about smaller alliances' ability to hold space.
[x] Hopes CCP will buckle under the tears posted here.
[ ] Is honest & genuine.

Fixed that for ya.


Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:17:00 - [2994]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.


That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:23:00 - [2995]
 

Originally by: Normin Bates
Originally by: Cefte


[x] Ignorant of value of own time.
[x] No understanding of term 'opportunity cost'
[ ] Pathologically risk averse.

Two out of three for the empire pubbie trifecta.


[x] Patently lazy and tear soaked goon.
[x] Unwilling to adapt.
[x] Fears losing vast areas of unused space.
[ ] Now seriously concerned about smaller alliances' ability to hold space.
[x] Hopes CCP will buckle under the tears posted here.
[ ] Is honest & genuine.

Fixed that for ya.




Laughing

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:23:00 - [2996]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Graysteel

Being a carebear, I welcome the idea of my industrial corp being needed for the survival of an alliance. And in turn I enjoy the idea of having (needing) a pvp backbone to protect (and attack enemy space )not just the sov of a system but the people in it. Now the pvpers have more meaning then just being called up for some blob battle or some pos bashing. I doubt that those pvpers will have much time to farm isk via mining or ratting and will need to rely on the indutrial corps to generate the isk for the alliance. Perhaps the alliance should hire their pvpers to do what they enjoy. (Hey now you dont have to farm isk at all you get paid to do what you like to do, shoot things, probably as soon as you log on to when you log off.)


That sounds good in theory but dominion wont do that. The carebears wont have a reason to joins such an alliance in dominion.


Mining? Exploration? All the things dominion adds? These are all far superior to hi-sec. Despite complaints that mining in 0.0 is worthless, it is far far far better then mining in hi-sec. Veldspar comes in at 81 isk/m3. Arkonor rocks out at 481 isk/m3. Gneiss, Dark Ochre, Bistot, Crokite, Spodumain, and Mercoxit are all also noticeably more valuable to a miner then veldspar and hi-sec ores. Drones may be a more effective way for you PvPers to get the minerals and money. But there are people (Read:Industrial corp carebears) that WANT to mine. They would be orgasmic to be able to quadruple their hourly income, and that includes a substantial corp tax to "pay" for the right. But right now...evidently, you just shoot some drones, get your minerals, and call it good. Why bother letting them mine in your space?

Also, as for protection...a halfway decent intel channel constitutes significant carebear protection. If no one can get within 5 jumps of the miners without them knowing, they aren't really in danger. Also, if local gains 10 reds/a cyno field, hope they're smart enough to dock/hide on their own.

Qlanth
Caldari
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:24:00 - [2997]
 

Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.


That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:25:00 - [2998]
 

Originally by: Verlisia

That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.


Ill do fast explanation to you.

Lets say it takes you one hour to mine 10mil trit with 2 people (no idea how fast it is in reality). this means 2 people made 30mil isk = 15mil/hour/person. If those 2 people did NPCing/lv4's/whatever giving 30mil/hour you would end up with 60mil isk. For 30mil isk you buy the trit you would have mined anyways and rest 30mil isk is spares you can use for whatever (or to buy another 10mil trit). As a result your 2 "miners" end up with 10mil trit in hands and 2 "npcers" end up with 20 mil in same time. Understood?

And in reality thats the mining issue in 0.0. Its easier to NPC/plex and buy needed trit from empire afk-miners/macros instead of mining it yourself. Increase trit amount per m3 by factor of 5 (or more, need to do maths here) and it suddenly starts being comeptetive.

Orthaen
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:29:00 - [2999]
 

Originally by: Qlanth


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


We have an inconsistency. (Maybe. I didnt actually keep track of who exactly was complaining about what.) On one hand, there is no reason to mine trit in 0.0 because you can just make money ratting and import the stuff. On the other hand, 0.0 is SOOOO HARD because it takes so much work and logistics to import stuff and its unfair and totally not cool. Either import the stuff, and deal with the logistics, or mine it yourself and don't. The opportunity cost, as people here seem to be so fond of bringing up, of importing stuff is that...you have to do the importing. Perhaps a mining gang could spend less time to mine it themselves, and then in the time saved not hauling **** you could rat/whatever. Even more money!

And again, some people like mining. They dont want to rat all day every day.

Verlisia
Posted - 2009.11.10 21:34:00 - [3000]
 

Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia
people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.

Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.




No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).

You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.

Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.


That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.


There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.

In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.


So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?


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