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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:27:00 - [271]
 

you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors?

just a thought...

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:27:00 - [272]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 07/11/2009 03:16:39

I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom.

I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into...

The Good:

Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances
Autopayment feature - Excellent!
Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0

The Bad:

Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty?
Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can".
You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0).
The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk).
If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances

The Ugly:
The costs/fees are way too high
You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0
You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them?

Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games).

My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog. ugh

Edit: Read a few more feedback posts - Equinox Deadalus sums it up well for CVA, and Bobby Atlas' post sums it up well for the expansion. And yeah Bobby; my "At least 5 times more expensive" cost is just for the Sovreignty "name" in the top corner; When infrastructure/upgrades are added the costs get absurd. Shocked

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:29:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: Vivian Azure
30 minutes of ratting, or flying a single LvL 4 mission can't hardly be called work tbh, if you compare it with the amount of time I spend with hauling, fueling towers and reactors or production every day.


Last time I tried to rat for 30 minutes I wanted to kill myself. If I would have to do it every day for next year or so I would prolly cancel my subscription. Same goes for mining (thou I do have periods it feels good Razz). But, I do understand and accept there are ppl that enjoy that and its fun for that, so this game fulfilled its purpose for them (it was worth the subscription).

Originally by: Vivian Azure
The usual grunts don't know what they're talking about, as we industrial players are the ones so far, who do all the work for them, so that they can enjoy the game. Now it's their time to contribute some time for the alliance aswell.


Yes, but those grunts also provide protection for my freighter ops, help me with hauls from time to time, call me when there are hauler spawns, give me faction BPCs and sometimes mods etc. I have spent most of my eve life as a director/CEO in corporations, and I'm around a long time (since beta). Mainly been doing boring things as production, logistics, POSs etc. I do know what you are saying, but also those ppl you say dont contribute is not true. They do, cause if they wherent there you wouldnt have anyone to protect you, escort you... or to put it in better words, you would be out of the job. Everyone has its place in a ecosystem of an eve corporation, and they dont manage to find it they leave on their own usually.

Originally by: Vivian Azure
If all people like me would stop doing their things in EvE-0.0-alliances for a single day, then the impact would be 10fold bigger then the upcoming patch, so yeah... stop whining.


You overestimate yourself and underestimate others. No one is irreplaceable, there will always be ppl that will step up and take your place, most of the times ppl you least expect.
My advice to you is to start trusting ppl a bit, and sometimes ask for help or accept help, you might get surprised. You too might get to enjoy the occasional pew pew Very Happy


Ironically I know your alliance very well and there's very few people who even acknowlede the work some of us do every day. And I've had no escorts at all since the introduction of Jumpfreighters and the Rorqual.
Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:32:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Undertow Latheus
Awesome, sov is getting fixed, 0.0 is getting much more incentive, and owners can customize upgrade and personalize space.

Now what the **** about lowsec?


this patch makes lowsec and npc space look very appealing, unless ccp has a massive boost to anomalies planned they aren't telling us about. Basically this makes owning and maintaining *any* space incredibly expensive, while increasing the risk of owning it and doing nothing to actually increase its value.

Sage Eveo
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:32:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: Sage Eveo on 07/11/2009 02:34:18
wtf.

I think Bobby put it best.

Objective: Get more people into 0.0
Solution: Make it more expensive, time draining, difficult & unattractive (for all reasons mentioned within previous responses).

What are you boys smoking, CCP ?

I say we play the "HTFU" song and go back to the drawing board.

// Sage.

Ayumi Fargazer
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:34:00 - [276]
 

also a thing to keep in mind for the yay crowd: a vast majority of the 0.0 population moved into 0.0 because they wanted NOT to shoot at NPCs for hours on end each week... if they wanted they would have stayed in empire and grinded lvl4s which nets more money in less time then ratting and is virtually risk free

i know most PvPers in my alliance (and a good batch of the logistics guys and industrialists as well) would rather stab theirselves in the head with a really dull knife then be forced to rat to just keep one system going

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:35:00 - [277]
 

wow these numbers... wow

we'll move to syndicate or npc delve if these go live like that, billions per month per system? there's no way anyone sane would pay that kind of price for conq 0.0 even if you gold-plate your economic upgrades

you claim these numbers are based off aggregate tower fuel cost but they have no relation to reality/actual numbers of real alliances

this had best be fixed by dec 1st or there will be an exodus from 0.0, i could see paying 300m a month or so for a fully upgraded system, but over 1.5b?

~illum leak~

[9:30:03 PM] Pringlescan: 1.275b zapa
[9:30:06 PM] Pringlescan: for a jb system
[9:30:08 PM] Pringlescan: hth
[9:30:18 PM] brennah: this is ****ing ******ed
[9:30:36 PM] Pringlescan: 2b for a jb/cyno jammed system
[9:30:51 PM] karttoon: That blog is terrible
[9:30:56 PM] karttoon: I put more effort into my war updates

i expected to be fighting for the right to remain in 0.0 but i expected to be fighting my darling bobbits, not a ludicrous pile of **** tax that has no relation to our current costs!

more words go here about how this is dumb and how we're going to have to bring out the pr flak cannons

Alexi Kalashnikov
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:36:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Soleil Fournier
We need upgrades that:

Increase the number of belts in a system.
Increase the security rating of the system to spawn better rats or ores.
Increase the number of rats that spawn in a system. (I don't mean anomalies)
Decrease the spawn timer of rats, from 20 minutes to 10 minutes.
More upgrades like these ^

The problem with 00 and why alliances take huge areas of space is because there are a lot of systems that people just can't make money out of. And the systems you can make money out of only support 2-3 players tops. Those upgrades you listed throw the idea of upgrading worthless systems to be somewhat usefull out the window. If you want each system to support 50 people like ya'll have been touting, you need significant changes to this proposed system, because those changes listed do nothing to help support more players.


Bam.

Right ****ing there.

CCP, take that single line back to your Dominion game plan and incorporate it. A single line will vastly improve the expansion.

Delay the expansion, break it up: just do it right.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:36:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/11/2009 02:38:24
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom.

I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into...

The Good:

Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances
Autopayment feature - Excellent!
Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0

The Bad:

Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty?
Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can".
You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0).
The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk).
If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances

The Ugly:

You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0
You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them?

Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games).

My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog. ugh


/perfectly stated!

Make the upgrades a simply isk payment with a monthly cost. The "use" mechanic, while a novel idea, will in reality turn into a "grind just to grind" timesink that is unfun and not what eve is about. Players in 00 should be focused on fighting not grinding.

But this poster had it right. /applaud

Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:37:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
I've only read a few of the feedback posts, so apologies if I repeat any of their words of wisdom.

I'll try to group my thoughts regarding this blog into...

The Good:

Reducing the Sovreignty "footprint" (via increased cost) of current large alliances
Autopayment feature - Excellent!
Upgrades and the Index based system for rewarding "Activity" in 0.0

The Bad:

Sovreignty cost is at least 5 times more expensive than it used to be (5x L towers? We used to only need 1x S Tower). Won't this mean LESS people go for Sovreignty?
Reducing the "footprint" of a large alliance does not mean any "new" space is available - Large alliances will (still) stomp any new/smaller/non-aligned "non-pet" neighbours "because they can".
You're not addressing the massive disparity between "good" 0.0 and "bad" 0.0 where a -1.0 Truesec system w/ R64-Moon is insanely more valuable than a -0.01 Truesec w/ Gas Moons (THE MAJORITY OF 0.0).
The majority of 0.0 systems ("Poor" 0.0) will still be poor reward compared to Empire at 5x higher cost (and risk).
If anything this makes 0.0 less attractive and less feasible for smaller alliances

The Ugly:

You're hanging CVA out to dry (with the fees, not listening/responding even to their leaders posts) despite holding them up as a good example of emergent play in 0.0
You have not even mentioned Ouposts - What about all that legacy of effort that went into building them?

Overall I think if you run with this plan for 0.0 mechanics, I think contrary to your hopes of populating 0.0 with more people; 0.0 will become even more barren with the loss of much of the existing 0.0 alliances/communities to Empire (or to other computer games).

My previous excitement about "new emergent 0.0" from other blogs has turned to scepticism about new grind-fest 0.0 after the mechanics of this blog. ugh


Thats only equal to 4-5L towers if you put NO UPGRADES into a system, the minute you start upgrading a system the costs rise very quickly.

Lonewolfnight
Gallente
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:37:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors?

just a thought...


To dispel this idea.

My corporation alone operates over 90 towers. After we pay marginal fee's to fueler's and haulers we're up about 3b a month. That is spread over 12 systems. So with that in mind, we can do about 250m per month per system in sov charges.

Sure, you could drain every penny to keep that lonely flag in the corner. What is left to defend, invest, and upgrade?

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:38:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
But the problem is...where is the line in the sand that says this is too much isk/hour. That is what CCP is trying to figure out I believe.



I don't know what is too much, but I think CCP has drawn this baseline for what is too little quite clearly and that is highsec level 4 agents. Something that requires no scanning down, is instantly + unlimitedly available, negligible risk for properly skilled/equipped pilot should be the entry level 0.0 opportunity.

If you take random person who is able to run highsec level 4, you need to give them a real reason to make a living in 0.0.

Or to look at in another way, you need to give a person a reason to stay in 0.0 after they are done PvPing rather than heading to empire Lv4s to make isk for their next batch of ships.

Vio Geraci
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:39:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: SamuraiJack
Originally by: Navick


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/United_Corporate_Ventures

Members - 146
Corporations - 3
Sovereignty - 0
Outposts - 0

Please, Mr. Expert, teach me how this game works. Oh wai-


Take a closer look. CLS is one of those 3.

We are well aware of how sov works, pos's and stations.



I remember the last time you were in 0.0, and I disagree. You've been sucking on the teat of mega-alliances for a long time.

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:41:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: The Mittani

[9:30:36 PM] Pringlescan: 2b for a jb/cyno jammed system
[9:30:51 PM] karttoon: That blog is terrible
[9:30:56 PM] karttoon: I put more effort into my war updates

i expected to be fighting for the right to remain in 0.0 but i expected to be fighting my darling bobbits, not a ludicrous pile of **** tax that has no relation to our current costs!

more words go here about how this is dumb and how we're going to have to bring out the pr flak cannons


so you can no longer create zero risk jump bridges and cynojam systems to protect your nap train without incurring significant costs?

cry some more

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:42:00 - [285]
 

people with no 0.0 alliance management experience talking out their buttes about what is or is not a reasonable cost





















not just in the blog, i mean

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:42:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Vivian Azure
Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying.


I'm not saying you should stop contributing, no one should. I sure never did, no matter how hard it was at times. I just found a way to get more ppl involved in things I do so we all contribute to both corp/alliance and have time to do our own interests. Balance is the key.

Originally by: rubico1337
you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors?

just a thought...


Those semi-lucrative moons pay a lot of things not just huge cap fleets, and even those huge cap fleets dont fly on their own. Stations dont build on their own. POSs are not perpetum mobile, Space is not held just cause you say it yours, that was before Exodus pt1.

On the other hand, if you are a smaller empire alliance with a desire to go live in 0.0 you dont even have those moons. All you can hope for as starter capital is your members donations, and that can take you to a point. If space you take can not support both you as a member and you as a corporation/alliance then its not worth taking it and paying for it.

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:47:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
I still don't understand why ccp can't figure out why people in 0.0 don't mine. Its not because there isn't ENOUGH of it, its because its not worth the isk/hour compared to ratting. Giving us more roids of the same type doesn't matter if no one is mining the ones we already have anyway. Sure there are a couple of peoples with bots who run 5 hulks at the same time but thats .1% of the eve 0.0 population.

Also how do you expect any alliance without r64s to hold more then one system? OR expect people to fight wars of conquest when winning would be more expensive then losing?


the only thing that makes 0.0 mining realistic is that it scales well with multiple accounts, otherwise you can make for more in minerals by just looting your non-gurista wrecks

Spuzum
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:48:00 - [288]
 

I want the 10 trillion corporate account balance in the cpp dev blog. Maybe, then we could afford to hold sov on one system. Get real, CPP. This costs way to much to upkeep. It is a cost increase of 2 to 3 times for sov. It's an isk grab to make every corporation poorer.

Vivian Azure
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:50:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Maybe I should say farewell and spend my time for my own interests instead of contributing to the alliance, when I read what you're saying.


I'm not saying you should stop contributing, no one should. I sure never did, no matter how hard it was at times. I just found a way to get more ppl involved in things I do so we all contribute to both corp/alliance and have time to do our own interests. Balance is the key.


Balance?

So it's OK, that I spend 2-3 hours a day with industrial tasks, just so you can make another fail attempt to kick eJoke out of CR?

Tangonis Galt
SOMER Blink Transport
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:50:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
people with no 0.0 alliance management experience talking out their buttes about what is or is not a reasonable cost.


It's OK. We know you don't have any real experience in 0.0 Alliance Management, but we don't consider your opinions any less valid.

.

Kraken Kill
Menace ll Society
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:54:00 - [291]
 

Edited by: Kraken Kill on 07/11/2009 03:05:25
This is a terrible Idea. Its discouraging those with space to take more space and its making those in space with fewer highends unable to pay for the upgrades needed to compete in the most rudimentory ways with established alliances.

FLAGs should have no fees. If someone wants to claim space why should it cost 20mil a day? Stupid bloody isk sink if pos fuel wasnt enough we now have to be accountants and make sure we have alliance members ratting hard enough. Make FLAGs not require any fees at the very least. Concord can shove a pinapple up thier anus, why should they have anything to do with 0.0 sov maintainace?

If corps or alliances want to experiance 0.0 they can go play factional warfare or shape up to be worth a damn and join or become a decent alliance to exist in 0.0. Or they can become a Pet of an alliance - and perhaps if they are of good enough standard if they pull their own they can become a partner rather than a pet.

Crappy crappy idea. Punishing success and rewarding the weak- although the weak wont be able to afford any Sov in 0.0.

Attacking someones space to remove their FLAGs is only saving them money in that they dont have to pay the extortionate fees to have their name in local at the top.

Alyra Logitus
Big Guns Inc.
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:55:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Navick


I mean, cmon, when Goons start quoting Bobby Atlas out of agreement then something has to be very, very wrong.


I honestly never ever thought I would ever agree with a goon, much less many goons, but there's no denying it.

Togae Alus
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:57:00 - [293]
 

well i hope that the guy that did that xls sheet was drunk when he typesd the prices as for keeping a secure 6 pocket constellation will cost 11 billion isk a mont so that is 2 and a half titans per year or 6 moms so please reconsider

Pringlescan
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.11.07 02:57:00 - [294]
 

Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it.

niroshido
Caldari
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:00:00 - [295]
 

20m/day for the sov claiming unit 20m * 7days = 140m ISK /week
10m/day for the infrastructure hub, 10m *7days = 70m ISK/week
25m/day for cyno jammer, 25m * 7days = 175m ISK/week

______________________________
Total ISK cost = 385m ISK/ week per system

this excludes JB's.

Lets take into account that CCP's original aim was not to make 0.0 a true carebear land where everyone plays for free, which was the case with R64 pos operations.

What the system now does is, scales down the zone of operations for an alliance, opening large areas of zero sov space. A 100 player alliance will be pushed from a 20 solar system wide to about 5 systems, which is good, to a degree.
The system costs can be covered by 24hrs of rat hunting (if 100% taxed), if 1 person was ratting they could generate a revenue of 20m isk +/hr *23hrs = 460m /day * 7 = 3.2b/week.

The hubs cost from 50m ISK to 500, so first upgrade = 50m (upfront investment) and 500m for the final upgrade, these are single payments per level, meaning u wont be charged on a daily basis.

Hidden belts upgrade: Some tend not to look at these, but as the dominion hits people will start looking for revenue and a good source of revenue comes from the alliance or inter-corperate market, where members will always be in need of mods, ammo, ships. Miners will have to sell there minerals to producers and will supply the alliance market. You are looking at one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level. So at lvl 5 u are getting 5 hidden belts garenteed.

Anomolies: I personally never seen any reason to do them, but at lvl 5 you get a total of 10 garenteed anomolies. Only if the anomolies offer enough will they be done. But 10 anomolies can cater for 10 ppl at about 10m ISK/hr

DED complexes: This can be a good source of revenue, but is dependant on the DED lvl, the overseers price will drop, but the bounties should provide a decent revenue. The upgrade suggests to me that the chances will double every level, so probably an 8/10 daily = 100m ISK daily, hopefully there is something in place to pop them up more often.

Survey Networks: To be honest, i dont think this is profitable at all. You probably could get a T2 bpc out of it but, meh!.

Quantum Flux Generator: More T3 ships for the alliance/corps

Given the system they are putting in place, i could maintain a single system easily, where i generate around 210m ISK weekly at a rate of 3hrs rat hunting daily. That would cover the infrastructure upgrade and sov module.



Stevens
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:02:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Pringlescan
Also nice job posting this late on a friday so we get to stew through the weekend before you realize like with the titan gun changes that you really messed up and fix it.


They do that so they can read over it on the weekend and instead of having to admit they screwed up they can just be like LOLTYPO/WEEKEND and try to play off being clinically ******ed.

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:02:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: rubico1337
you know. there are these things called moons. generally they are semi-lucrative even after dominion. maybe that isk could go to pay sov bills rather than pay for huge cap fleets and megalomaniac directors?

just a thought...


You know you don't need sov to hold those things called moons right?

In fact with the 10% fuel bonus you need something like 50 towers in one system for the sov bonus to be worth it fuelwise. It would make much more sense at a 50% fuel bonus (10 towers to break even, or even a 71% fuel bonus (7 towers to break even).

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:06:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: niroshido
20m/day for the sov claiming unit 20m * 7days = 140m ISK /week
10m/day for the infrastructure hub, 10m *7days = 70m ISK/week
25m/day for cyno jammer, 25m * 7days = 175m ISK/week

______________________________
Total ISK cost = 385m ISK/ week per system

this excludes JB's.

Lets take into account that CCP's original aim was not to make 0.0 a true carebear land where everyone plays for free, which was the case with R64 pos operations.

What the system now does is, scales down the zone of operations for an alliance, opening large areas of zero sov space. A 100 player alliance will be pushed from a 20 solar system wide to about 5 systems, which is good, to a degree.
The system costs can be covered by 24hrs of rat hunting (if 100% taxed), if 1 person was ratting they could generate a revenue of 20m isk +/hr *23hrs = 460m /day * 7 = 3.2b/week.

The hubs cost from 50m ISK to 500, so first upgrade = 50m (upfront investment) and 500m for the final upgrade, these are single payments per level, meaning u wont be charged on a daily basis.

Hidden belts upgrade: Some tend not to look at these, but as the dominion hits people will start looking for revenue and a good source of revenue comes from the alliance or inter-corperate market, where members will always be in need of mods, ammo, ships. Miners will have to sell there minerals to producers and will supply the alliance market. You are looking at one additional guaranteed hidden asteroid site per level. So at lvl 5 u are getting 5 hidden belts garenteed.

Anomolies: I personally never seen any reason to do them, but at lvl 5 you get a total of 10 garenteed anomolies. Only if the anomolies offer enough will they be done. But 10 anomolies can cater for 10 ppl at about 10m ISK/hr

DED complexes: This can be a good source of revenue, but is dependant on the DED lvl, the overseers price will drop, but the bounties should provide a decent revenue. The upgrade suggests to me that the chances will double every level, so probably an 8/10 daily = 100m ISK daily, hopefully there is something in place to pop them up more often.

Survey Networks: To be honest, i dont think this is profitable at all. You probably could get a T2 bpc out of it but, meh!.

Quantum Flux Generator: More T3 ships for the alliance/corps

Given the system they are putting in place, i could maintain a single system easily, where i generate around 210m ISK weekly at a rate of 3hrs rat hunting daily. That would cover the infrastructure upgrade and sov module.






and now, where to you get isk and time to pvp with.. you know, fun stuff... i'd rather not grind for HOURS A DAY just to bloody hold the system, thats not counting all the other costs, like ships for defence etc.

for my alliance it is much more viable to simply ninja in and out as it pleases us and/or grind missions in high sec for funding of pvp....

Graalum
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:06:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Alice Celadon

3. The market goes batpoo insane. As Trit falls off a freaking cliff in comparison to ISK value, BS manufacture/insurance/self-destruct becomes the de-facto method for making ISK.



you must not have been to jita recently

Oku Kee'lus
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.07 03:07:00 - [300]
 

I can't believe this expansion is going to fall flat on it's face because CCP can't get a grip of the code in their own game.

The single most defining reason for most of 0.0 being a barren wasteland is truesec. Most systems are so crappy ISK wise, that you can't even rent them out.

CCP, you were on the right track. In order to free up 0.0 for new and smaller alliances, current alliances need to be concentrated, the proposed costs are fine and can help accomplish that, but only if the solar systems are able to support it, and none of those resource upgrades will facilitate that.

Exploration sites and DED plexes? Yeah, those are fine, if we were talking about current solar system population were only a few people share a system, but 50-100 people? That's simply not going to work out.

If the resource upgrades are implemented like you present them here, solar systems aren't going to support anywhere near enough people to jusity those SOV and Infrastructure costs, and if you lower the costs to compensate, you won't free up any space for new players in 0.0.

Conclusion? Yes, we know your agent, trusec, or whatever code is old and probably undocumented. We know in order to support 50k concurrent users your DB is probably a ***** when it comes to changing stuff like this, but unless you invest the time in fixing it, you might as well scrap Dominion and keep things as they are. If you don't all those man hours will be wasted shuffling around a bunch of stuff that wont result in anything but status quo.


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