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blankseplocked T3 production has hit the wall, and needs fixed
 
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.10.28 14:31:00 - [1]
 

All but one of the 4 subsystems in each category are now unprofitable to make. By this I mean the materials cost at least as much as the modules are selling for. This makes the bpcs for the unprofitable modules not worth the paper they are printed on, which makes reverse engineering a messed up prospect because even when you succeed, odds are only 25% that the result will be worth a damn.

There are two serious problems that are contributing to this. The first is that reverse engineering can not choose which subsystem to get. This used to be a problem with invention on certain items that have multiple T2 variants, and was finally fixed. This needs fixed for reverse engineering as well.

The second, and more serious problem, is with the salvage system that t3 relies on. Again, there is no way to choose what salvage you get, and there are also no alternative uses for salvage. Eventually this leads to massive stockpiles of some salvage that flood the market and have almost no worth, while the one or two limiting reagents bear all of the value. There needs to be an alternate use for salvage to take the excess out of the market and prevent the more common salvage from becoming totally worthless. Maybe something like alchemy where you can turn a large number of one salvage into some of another, or maybe allow recycling of salvage into something of some use. Either normal minerals, or maybe a new set of salvage pixie dust that can then be reassembled with blueprints into other salvage.

If this is not fixed then eventually you will be looking at building subsystems from the 5 parts that cost 20 million isk for 1 and 20,000 isk for the other 4, which is just silly.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.10.28 15:14:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 28/10/2009 15:14:27
the market will adjust the situation. If its not profitable, less peeps farm WH -> the cr*p gets profitable again

I dont see any problem here, look for another things to farm.

Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
Posted - 2009.10.28 15:25:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
If this is not fixed then eventually you will be looking at building subsystems from the 5 parts that cost 20 million isk for 1 and 20,000 isk for the other 4, which is just silly.


Sounds like the current rig system.

Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
Posted - 2009.10.28 15:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Zifrian
Originally by: Gaogan
If this is not fixed then eventually you will be looking at building subsystems from the 5 parts that cost 20 million isk for 1 and 20,000 isk for the other 4, which is just silly.


Sounds like the current rig system.


Yep exactly, crazy enough, CCP repeated another system to create the new one.

Rin Taleda
Posted - 2009.10.28 23:51:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
All but one of the 4 subsystems in each category are now unprofitable to make.


Darn BPO holders, taking all the profit out of everything. We should remove them from the game or make them 1000 run bpc's or something.

Oh, wait. You said T3.

Nevermind.

Lacolo Basema
Kotar Engineering
Posted - 2009.10.29 03:27:00 - [6]
 

I think it's also curious that T3 subs can't be reprocessed. So there's no "safety valve" on how low the prices can drop on a given subsystem. On T2 and T1 items, someone will just buy it and reprocess it for the mats, either selling them directly for a profit, or building other items with them.

Of course, this will force down the prices on the least used subsystems, but it also means that materials are tied up in subsystems that are not really being sold, but just piling up on the market. Insted, the materials from these could be freed up and put on the market, thus lowering material costs, and t3 costs in general.

I'm not quite sure about the ability to choose what is reverse engineered though. I can't decide if it's good how it is, albeit producing a lot of worthless BPC's.

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.29 09:33:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rin Taleda

Darn BPO holders, taking all the profit out of everything. We should remove them from the game or make them 1000 run bpc's or something.

Oh, wait. You said T3.

Nevermind.


ROFL!

This!

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.29 10:51:00 - [8]
 

I've still seen no logical explanation as to why you *can't* reprocess T3 subsystems, but you *can* reprocess T1 Rigs into damaged components. WTF ?!?

Allowing the reprocessing of T3 would fix the problem of the end T3 product not being profitable, then you could just buy up, reprocess, profit. But that said, I would equally support making rigs unreprocessable.

That said, it's not the first time CCP has just put completely illogical mechanics into industry...

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.10.29 11:54:00 - [9]
 

Well the truth is t3 market is infested with nanoribbons i salvage are free people.

And i agree t3 production chain is broken.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.10.29 13:49:00 - [10]
 

I'm probably just daft, but what is broken with it and/or the rig system? Is your point that supply and demand doesn't work because it's not rewarding enough?

As for not being able to chose, you could just consider your entire efforts focused on that single item, anything else being failures you can if you want to salvage. If it's not profitable to salvage the waste, don't do it, if it is, say hooray and laugh all the way to Jita.

It shouldn't be a problem for you, it should _possibly_ be an issue for the flooded markets of secondary subsystems, however that's a flaw that should be fixed by balancing the other subs, not by changing the production line for it.

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.10.29 17:06:00 - [11]
 

Look it's easy - if you have a pile of subsystem BPCs that aren't valued well do some EFT warrioring and find a fit that makes sense for those unpopular subsystems. Publish fits and make videos showing your awesome fit pwning pilots all over the place, use a ton of alts to astroturf for your fits and rate them highly on battleclinic, then sit back and watch the prices rise.

Or even smarter would be to diss those susbsystems first and make them even less desirable, buy up all the BPC's and then go into full eft warrioring/astroturf mode.

I'Trade
Posted - 2009.10.29 18:29:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
Look it's easy - if you have a pile of subsystem BPCs that aren't valued well do some EFT warrioring and find a fit that makes sense for those unpopular subsystems. Publish fits and make videos showing your awesome fit pwning pilots all over the place, use a ton of alts to astroturf for your fits and rate them highly on battleclinic, then sit back and watch the prices rise.

Or even smarter would be to diss those susbsystems first and make them even less desirable, buy up all the BPC's and then go into full eft warrioring/astroturf mode.



This. Win. Pure. Epic. Win.

That is all.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.10.29 23:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
Look it's easy - if you have a pile of subsystem BPCs that aren't valued well do some EFT warrioring and find a fit that makes sense for those unpopular subsystems. Publish fits and make videos showing your awesome fit pwning pilots all over the place, use a ton of alts to astroturf for your fits and rate them highly on battleclinic, then sit back and watch the prices rise.

Or even smarter would be to diss those susbsystems first and make them even less desirable, buy up all the BPC's and then go into full eft warrioring/astroturf mode.



someone move this to the marketing forum! (but just skye's post), this has nothing to do with the industry part!

but like totally other subsystems suck!

Sefredius Mengsk
Posted - 2009.10.30 19:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Gaogan
tl;dr


do your math again. and stop whining. theres enough isk to be made in t3 atm

Deathswiper
Posted - 2009.10.30 22:27:00 - [15]
 

While I agree that having the salvage drop rates way out of balance with the usage rates is annoying, as it makes 1 or 2 items the bottleneck and thus they carry all the value.

However, the rest of the "problem" is cured by supply and demand and does not need CCP intervention...

If t3 subsystem production is not profitable, supply of subsystems will go down, and prices will go up to bring it back in balance.
If components are overpriced, more people will farm them, supply will go up, and price will go down.

As more players have the skills for t3, demand will go up and thus price will go up. Until, of course, production catches up and brings it back in balance.

In other words, the market will adjust and if t3 production is truely unprofitable, the prices will change. The current situation (Im assuming the OP is accurate as Im no expert in the production profitability at this moment) is only temporary until the market adjusts.


Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.10.30 22:38:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Rin Taleda
Originally by: Gaogan
All but one of the 4 subsystems in each category are now unprofitable to make.


Darn BPO holders, taking all the profit out of everything.
LMFAO Laughing Laughing Laughing 10/10

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.30 23:33:00 - [17]
 

Quote:

do your math again. and stop whining. theres enough isk to be made in t3 atm


OK.

Legion Defensive - Warfare Processor: costs 61 mil to manufacture, sells for 50. 11 mil loss.
Loki Defensive - Amplification Node: Costs 61 mil, sells for 45 mil, 16 mil loss.
Proteus Defensive - Warfare Processor: costs 61 mil, sells for 40 mil, 21 mil loss.
Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor: Costs 61 mil, sells for 50 mil, 11 mil loss.
Loki Offensive - Hardpoint Efficiency: Costs 63 mil, sells for 45 mil, 18 mil loss.
Tengu Offensive - Magnetic Infusion Basin: Costs 63 mil, sells for 49 mil, 14 mil loss.
Tengu Offensive - Rifling Launcher Pattern: Costs 63 mil, sells for 40 mil, 23 mil loss.
Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization: costs 18 mil, sells for 14 mil, 4 mil loss.
Proteus Propulsion - Wake Limiter: costs 18 mil, sells for 14 mil, 4 mil loss.
Legion Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector: Costs 23 mil, sells for 13, 10 mil loss.
Proteus Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector: Costs 23 mil, sells for 13, 10 mil loss.
Tengu Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector: Costs 23 mil, sells for 14, 9 mil loss.

*Note, these manufacturing costs assume a blueprint cost of 0 ISK.

Yes, there are items out there that make a profit. Yes, these items are selling at a loss because they're ****. But from a manufacturing perspective, the way T3 works is completely anomolous within the manufacturing framework. T2 Components, rigs etc. can all be reprocessed down to their consituents, why not T3?

If it's some RP reason like "Advanced tech is so hard to manufacture it's non-trivial to pull it apart again",, then why can I produce "damaged" components from rigs, when notionally you cannibalise all the parts to get a small amount of "good parts" to make the rig. Either let us reprocess T3, or stop letting us reprocess things like rigs. Either way, the system currently makes no sense.

This is also a result of the laziness in the T3 material requirements, where *all* modules from all races of a particular category have the same building requirements. That makes even less sense and once again is a complete anomoly,, even T2 at least has racial-specific components to it's requirements.

I think you're mistaking this as a whine about "not being able to make profit" instead of a "this just doesn't make sense" one.

Millie Clode
Amarr
Insert Cool Name Here
Posted - 2009.10.30 23:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kylar RenpursIf it's some RP reason like "Advanced tech is so hard to manufacture it's non-trivial to pull it apart again",, then why can I produce "damaged" components from rigs, when notionally you cannibalise all the parts to get a small amount of "good parts" to make the rig. Either let us reprocess T3, or stop letting us reprocess things like rigs. Either way, the system currently makes no sense.[/quote


The whole idea of jury rigging (and by extension rigs) is that you modify the current configuration of existing systems to produce a better effect. Unlike t3 and reverse engineering, it involves no new or unknown tech. So from an RP perspective your point makes no sense

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.31 00:58:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 31/10/2009 00:59:03
Quote:

The whole idea of jury rigging (and by extension rigs) is that you modify the current configuration of existing systems to produce a better effect. Unlike t3 and reverse engineering, it involves no new or unknown tech. So from an RP perspective your point makes no sense


Let me put this another way then. Why can I reprocess a rig and retreive "damaged" items? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And in addition to that it's a pretty good rule of thumb that if you can build it, it's easier to pull apart things than it is to build them in the first place. It's not like you're pulling apart something that you didn't build. All the subsystems and components are all player built. If we built them, why *can't* we pull them apart? Unless the manufacturing process should render the original components unretrievable which is exactly what would happen when building a rig out of damaged parts.

One of these doesn't fit. Which one is it? Is it that rigs are reprocessable, or that T3 isnt?

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2009.10.31 04:22:00 - [20]
 

If you can come up with a fix for stupidity, there are wider ranging applications than just Eve. You can't 'fix' people, there's no problem with the mechanic itself. Profit is entirely determined by people.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.31 05:36:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
If you can come up with a fix for stupidity, there are wider ranging applications than just Eve. You can't 'fix' people, there's no problem with the mechanic itself. Profit is entirely determined by people.


But you can fix inconsistency, and while T3 manufacturing isn't 'broken', and indeed there is no 'problem' with it, it's anomolous and plain doesn't make any sense when compared to the rest of industry, whether in terms of game mechanics or roleplay reasons.

Stupid people are a part of EVE, thus why I wouldn't care either way if they removed the ability to reprocess rigs, since we'd then see the same effect as we are with T3, though to a lesser extent since CCP were at least a little bit creative with *some* of the build requirements for rigs.

Consistency is all I'm after. That said, there's plenty of dead old beaten horses that remind me that's the last thing I should expect here Confused

Tesal
Posted - 2009.10.31 07:31:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tesal on 31/10/2009 07:38:05
Unprofitable is also a condition of a market in decline.

*edit
Jita also isn't the necessarily the best place to buy this stuff. The low cost point is actually in the wormhole. If people have spare slots there and available materials they are going to fill them.

EvilTwin I
Twin Corp
Posted - 2009.10.31 11:33:00 - [23]
 

Etc: Anom. Sleepers should drop Bpcs too (just rare/limited)maybe finished Subs .. so a gain for the Ratter to be a part of the T3 world with out having a Pre-proffesion as booknerd in Lab industry.

would make the t3 more spread out to everyone

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.31 14:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: EvilTwin I
Etc: Anom. Sleepers should drop Bpcs too (just rare/limited)maybe finished Subs .. so a gain for the Ratter to be a part of the T3 world with out having a Pre-proffesion as booknerd in Lab industry.

would make the t3 more spread out to everyone


Possibly the worst idea on earth, since that's exactly what T1 manufacturing suffers from.

Dianalexia
Posted - 2009.10.31 14:20:00 - [25]
 

We can reprocess T3 hulls into basic components.
It would be nice to be able to do the same thing with the subsystems since they are build exactly the same way.

Dr Silkworth
Posted - 2009.10.31 14:48:00 - [26]
 

Forgive me, I don't post much and am just a consumer but couldn't this be working as intended? I kind of like that the lack of reprocessing decouples price from material cost. Many people blame the insurance floor for the lack of a free market in t1. T2 we have proprietary moon goo and its holders running the show. Another problem is that the build costs are just too public. t2 is harder to figure and the profits are higher cause every new guy can't figure out a pieces build cost in 10 seconds. Another one is that we have the meta system to help people sort through the value of a module. I don't think we have that on subsytems do we?

With the price decoupled and easy calcs unavailable, it seems this leaves a great chance for the market to work in a new fashion. The high demand items now MUST cover the losses of the excess products almost as if they were byproducts of the manufacturing process.. If someone isn't in the trading business, they could bundle the good items with the poor ones and let traders in turn figure out prices. Bundling works very well to cover losses and hide excess profits. and overall can bring in a higher percentage of profits.

Right now it sounds like the good subsystems are like a lottery. This chance based mechanic is everywhere in eve and it makes for great game cause you can always hope that something better is abpout to drop.

Another thing that comes to mind is that the prices for the trash modules could drop even further and put t3 even though its poor t3 in the hands of more people and further increase demand for the rare good high priced modules.

Then we can proceed to the next wall.

ingenting
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.10.31 22:35:00 - [27]
 

the expansion havent even hit transquility yet, ffs... if its still crap 3-4 months after dominion have been on, THEN YOU CAN WHINE

Aeon Storm
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.11.01 01:54:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: ingenting
the expansion havent even hit transquility yet, ffs... if its still crap 3-4 months after dominion have been on, THEN YOU CAN WHINE


There is nothing I can find on Sisi that addresses this problem.

It makes no sense not to be able to reprocess T3. There is nothing wrong with keeping a market balance. If a conponent is worth less than the sum of its parts, I should be able to take it apart and sell them. This at least keeps it consistant with the rest of the game. Why is that a problem? Is it unreasonable to figure If I go to all the trouble to build the thing, its going to be worth more than the crap its made of?

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.11.01 02:14:00 - [29]
 

So people aren't very smart and selling them at a loss... and because of this you want CCP to make them more profitable?

Seriously?

Aeon Storm
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.11.01 02:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
So people aren't very smart and selling them at a loss... and because of this you want CCP to make them more profitable?

Seriously?



I think it is the goal of most people who play the market or manufacture, is that they wish the game to be as realistic as possible. Or in this case, at least consistant with the rest of the game. That is what makes the game fun, figuring and planning. Taking time and risks. training all those high skills, building pos', venturing into W space, etc... If on the other hand a game mechanic is such that after all that effort I loose, many people would want the game mechanic put consistant with the rest of the game. That is how most of the market is afterall.

It is easy to say "You're greedy" "STFU" blah, blah, blah. What this is about is better game play.


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