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blankseplocked [Proposal] Revamp Black Ops ships; Make them usefull
 
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.03 09:33:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Midori Tsu
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
More bumping.

Though... Black Ops is fine as a weak deployment vehicle. Hell, if you made it both weaker in combat terms but made it a better deployment vehicle, it would be much more awesome:

Step 1: Remove all turret/bay hardpoints, so top slots can only equip probes/utility stuff
Step 2: Remove drone bay

Step 3: Double the base jump range, maybe more. Cut fuel costs to 10% or so of current.
Step 4: Add a bay to distribute bombs/ammo to other members of the fleet.

There, fixed. Black Ops is now the raft that carries in the special forces for covert missions, rather than an orange-painted raft with two machine guns buckled to the sides for no apparent reason. Doesn't need a covops cloak, really, bonus to velocity is fine, from what I've seen from the guy that runs ours.


ludicris changes. i tihnk even less people would fly black ops ships if this changes were made.


instead of giving a opinion of how it not should go figur a opinion how it does should chnage

Datari Langour
Posted - 2010.11.05 14:32:00 - [212]
 

I hope ccp will ever fix blackops, its been a great idea, they introduced it, and then they don't look at the problems blackops ships have.

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2010.11.05 19:50:00 - [213]
 

Zib zob zoobity bop fix the **** out of them.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.07 10:32:00 - [214]
 

still not fixed

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2010.11.07 17:26:00 - [215]
 

I like the idea of removing the Sin's turrets, but rather than just add one drone controlled per level, give a 99% reduction in CPU and Power for Drone Control Units. Make them eat up 5 of those 7 high slots if they want to operate 10 drones.

Add to that a 20% bonus to drone damage and an additional 200 power cap and its a winner.

aratillion
Posted - 2010.11.08 15:34:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: aratillion on 08/11/2010 16:09:22
I believe that the black ops should be able to bridge all t2 crusier sized ships.recon or not,alsoi believe that all the bo should get a standard bounes to bridging -10% fuel need per skill black op lvl instead of the jump portal skill.i also think the jump range should be a bit longer and covert cynos should be able to be lit anywhere in empire aswell,i also think that the black op should be able use a covert ops cloak,also change the jump portal skill prereq to something other than a probing skill.i think the prereqs should be electronics lvl 5,bs lvl 5, jump cal lvl 4,scenice lvl 5,black op lvl 1,covert jump portal lvl 1 (note this should be a seprate skills book asdie from the jump portal,these prereqs are for the covert jump portal only).but i think there should be a covert cyno jammer as well for system that have sov lvl 5 for more than 5 months.but thats my idea for the black op.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.09 15:06:00 - [217]
 

still no fix so im going to start bumping daily

Slade Hoo
Amarr
Retired Gunslingers
Posted - 2010.11.10 00:07:00 - [218]
 


Mocam
Posted - 2010.11.10 00:48:00 - [219]
 

IMO -- big change to help them out: Allow black ops use in highsec. All the ship types can go there and covert cyno's bypass blocks so...

That'd make a very interesting change to some highsec war situations.

Darirol
Posted - 2010.11.10 01:31:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Darirol on 10/11/2010 01:32:35
my sin is used as logistic ship - if it is used at all. shield tank, cargo rigs, cargo expander in low slots and i have enough fuel to bridge small covert op gangs around. but the bridge range is much to low for this kind of black op action. you can not have more then 2 or 3 target systems in range and even with so many cargo mods fitted you have not enough fuel to move your fleet around. cloaky t2 hauler dont have much more cargo space.

more bridge range or _much_! larger fuel bay would help for this kind of black op use.

i never used my black op in combat, because a 40 mio isk dominix > Sin even if the sin would cost only 100 mio isk i would still prefer a dominix for combat.
if you want black ops in combat you should give them a much better tank.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.11.11 11:59:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Baneken on 11/11/2010 12:04:31
I second this proposal.

edit:
One thing what about ability to use normal jump portal generators instead of just covert ops, give them 99% reduction for fitting and we would have a mini titan for a 10th of a price and smaller jump range that comes with it.
This would also justify the small fuel bay and other drawbacks that BO's have, although sin and panther would still have useless bonuses that need to be tweaked.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.11.11 12:27:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 11/11/2010 12:27:41
general fix for them BO's:

- increase fuel bay and/or decrease fuel consumption of portal
- increase base jump range, or give a bonus for jump range, or both.
- remove penalties for using cloak (but not the ability of using cov ops cloak), cloak velocity bonus should be replaced by said above jump range bonus.

specific fixes:

- Sin's agility bonus is lol, sin's mass is lol, sin's agility is lol, sin's grid is, yet again, lol. change those for something more usefull like a drone bonus or a hull repairing bonus, since that's more useful than current bonus.

- panther's speed bonus back in the nano age was good. With the nano nerf, not any longer. change it for a tracking bonus or a falloff bonus or whatever.

Bubbled
Posted - 2010.11.11 13:44:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Bubbled on 11/11/2010 13:44:44
+1 for unnerf the BO

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War

Posted - 2010.11.11 17:47:00 - [224]
 

Reposted from S&M:

15% Reduction in Fuel need for Jump Drive Activation per level of BO
10% Reduction in Fuel need for Covert Jump Portal Activation per level of BO
20% Increase to Scan Resolution per level of BO .
20% Reduction to Cloaking Device Velocity penalty per level of BO .
10% Increase to Jump Drive and Covert Jump Portal range per level of BO .
Role Bonus : No targeting delay after uncloaking and 25% velocity bonus while
cloaking device is equipped ( passive bonus ).
Special Bonus : Black Ops Insertion - Black Ops ships with an equipped Covert Cyno
Generator can lock onto a system star rather than on to a Cyno field . Covert Jump
Portal Generator cannot be equipped for this ability to be active . This is a passive
ability enabled by the equipping of a Covert Cyno , but in turn disabled by the
equipping of a Covert Portal Generator.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.14 22:47:00 - [225]
 

bump

Koronos
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.11.17 02:05:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

general fix for them BO's:

- increase fuel bay and/or decrease fuel consumption of portal
- increase base jump range, or give a bonus for jump range, or both.
- remove penalties for using cloak (but not the ability of using cov ops cloak), cloak velocity bonus should be replaced by said above jump range bonus.

specific fixes:

- Sin's agility bonus is lol, sin's mass is lol, sin's agility is lol, sin's grid is, yet again, lol. change those for something more usefull like a drone bonus or a hull repairing bonus, since that's more useful than current bonus.

- panther's speed bonus back in the nano age was good. With the nano nerf, not any longer. change it for a tracking bonus or a falloff bonus or whatever.


This +11. Well, maybe not so much the hull repping bonus, but point well made. Laughing

Defenseless Miner
Posted - 2010.11.19 23:11:00 - [227]
 

i support

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.11.20 13:17:00 - [228]
 

Almost a year ago I posted here voicing my support for the idea of buffing Black Ops. One or two suggestions have been adopted since then. That is appeciated. However, the options selected were of the most modest variety and for the most part, fairly ineffective at boosting the desirability of flying BlOps BS. Since I have now less than a week before completing all required training to fly a Widow, I am posting again to reinforce my continued support for this class of ship.

In general, all BlOps BS suffer from crappy tank when compared against their T1 variants. Either give them T2 resists, increased agility, decreased mass, or decrease signature radius. I think the reduced SigRad is a fine idea firmly in line with the concepts and traditions of Covert/Black Ops. These guys should be hard to catch, but not necessarily hard to kill.

First, everyone please recognize that there are 2 BS bonus slots, 2 BO bonus slots, and 2 role bonus slots. Let us start with the role bonus slots.

The ability to equip a covert cloak would place the vessel more properly into the BO role alongside its counterparts, the force recons, CovOps frigates, and SB. It would be no more "OP" than any other cov ops ship. And honestly, I don't see anyone popping a cov cyno with a BO. They cost far too much and are far too valuable as portal generators to perform a task that any other CovOps can do just as well, without having to sit immobile for 60 seconds in a barn-sized target with crappy EHP.

To balance the addition of covert cloak and not make BO into a do-it-all covert vessel remove the ability to light covert cynos.

The second role bonus is fitting a Covert Portal Generator. Needless to say, that should stay in place.

As far as the BS and BO per level bonuses, I feel that they are not in line with the intended role of BlOps, and need to be completely redone.

Since I suggested above that we should allow for covert cloaking devices, there is no reason to have a cloaked velocity modifier. Let us replace that with the oft and appropriately suggested jump drive range bonus. With a base range of 2ly and the JDC skill multiplier of 25% per level, we have a maximum range of a measly 4.5ly. Lets give the BlOps another 25% per Black Ops level. Currently, there is little incentive (other than the Widow's ECM bonus) to continue training BlOps skill. This would make it more desirable to continue training the skill, as well as be balanced. You want more range? Work for it.

Now we can address the second BlOps skill bonus. On all ships, this seems to be a utility bonus slot. Drop all the current bonuses and replace them with the standard Covert Ops CPU reduction of 96-100% per level.

Now, as for the battleship skill bonuses, nobody complains about having extra dps. However, they simply don't fit the role and could be better used in an EWAR capacity. Let's build on that theme. All bonuses are percent per level of BS skill.

Widow, +30% ECM strength and +5% RoF of launchers. Redeemer, +5% laser RoF and +20% Neut/Nos energy transfer amount. Sin, +5% large hybrid damage and +20% to Remote Sensor Dampening effectiveness. Screw the drones. Panther, +5% large projectile damage and +25% target painter effectiveness.

If you want logistics capability carry remote rep bots. Even the Widow can carry 1 set each of 5 medium rep bots 5 small ECM or combat drones. That's a great use for a BO drone bay imo.

One other thing I would do is to change the Jump Portal Generation skill to allow for it to reduce the amount of isotopes used by Covert Jump Portals. Currently it only reduces stront usage for Titan bridges. That would give folks the fuel reduction they want, again balanced by skill train time. (ref.)

I hope this post stimulates some positive conversation. I can envision some interesting new fits.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.11.20 16:14:00 - [229]
 

Quote:
approved by CSM x2, after 13 months no fix

That's because csm has no power and doesnt do anything. CCP fixes stuff at a rate. CSM just shotguns and talks about every issue and when ccp tells us what they are fixing. CSM claims success.

Stig Sterling
Posted - 2010.11.21 18:17:00 - [230]
 

As soon as I found out about the Black Ops ships, I wanted to fly one. I have put the bulk of my skills into flying a Sin. Once I wasnt so green anymore, I realized that they needed a little work.

Please fix this so my skill training doesnt go to waste!

Defenseless Miner
Posted - 2010.11.22 23:08:00 - [231]
 

i support

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.11.23 05:26:00 - [232]
 

What about addressing the portal range issue by providing a t2 and named variants of the portal generator?

As a fan of the Dominix, I would like to be able to transfer my drone skills to the Sin, and would happily give up the hybrids bonus and all the turret hard points for some more drone DPS/repping.

Slightly larger fuel bays, combined with slightly better bridging fuel efficiency and range due to named/T2 bridge generators, will address most of the issues people have with black ops. I would not want to see them buffed to the point of being capable frontline combatants, so if they become powerful enough to replace T1 ships when running missions you know something is wrong.

There should be some sacrifice for the ability to bridge in a sub-cap hull. In return the bridge should have utility that can be expanded with some expense.

Buff range by 5% to 50% based on some modules, reduce fuel consumption by a similar amount on others, have the pilot choose between higher range or better efficiency.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.11.23 16:28:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
What about addressing the portal range issue by providing a t2 and named variants of the portal generator?

As a fan of the Dominix, I would like to be able to transfer my drone skills to the Sin, and would happily give up the hybrids bonus and all the turret hard points for some more drone DPS/repping.

Slightly larger fuel bays, combined with slightly better bridging fuel efficiency and range due to named/T2 bridge generators, will address most of the issues people have with black ops. I would not want to see them buffed to the point of being capable frontline combatants, so if they become powerful enough to replace T1 ships when running missions you know something is wrong.

There should be some sacrifice for the ability to bridge in a sub-cap hull. In return the bridge should have utility that can be expanded with some expense.

Buff range by 5% to 50% based on some modules, reduce fuel consumption by a similar amount on others, have the pilot choose between higher range or better efficiency.


The problem with drones is that they dont apply damage on the target immedelately, so this should be fixed aswell, ether buff drone damage or drone vellocity bonus

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2010.11.23 20:21:00 - [234]
 

Keeping hope alive.


  • Change the cloaked velocity bonus to a 20% per level reduction of scan resolution and speed penalty of fitting cloaking devices.


  • Increase Jump and bridge range by 50% (should be enough to get some of those regional jumps that are just out of reach currently)

  • Change the Sin's agility bonus to a 7.5% tracking bonus per level.


  • Change the Panther's speed bonus to 10% falloff per level bonus.


  • Add T2 resists.

TopShatta
Caldari
I.M.M
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2010.11.24 14:20:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Javelin6
Keeping hope alive.


  • Change the cloaked velocity bonus to a 20% per level reduction of scan resolution and speed penalty of fitting cloaking devices.


  • Increase Jump and bridge range by 50% (should be enough to get some of those regional jumps that are just out of reach currently)

  • Change the Sin's agility bonus to a 7.5% tracking bonus per level.


  • Change the Panther's speed bonus to 10% falloff per level bonus.


  • Add T2 resists.



Jumprage should get a buff + an exeption to the rule that u can alwasy make 1 system jump even if the distance is bigger than the max jump range.
The 7,5% tracking buff is useless without extra power grid to be able to fit them in the first place Idea

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2010.11.24 19:03:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: TopShatta
Originally by: Javelin6
Stuff I said.



The 7,5% tracking buff is useless without extra power grid to be able to fit them in the first place Idea


Point taken.




Koen L
Gallente
Apina.
United Pod Service
Posted - 2010.11.25 04:17:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Koen L on 25/11/2010 04:17:21
Got the ship and skills now (widow). Its expensive and useless. I regret investing into this.
I gonna reprocess it if it wont get unnerfed. At least the jump range needs a buff.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.12.01 05:19:00 - [238]
 

lol @ reprocess. Better check the value of the reprocess results first. cba to do it myself. Bet the ship is worth more. Just sell it if you want to get rid of it. Someone will buy it.

...eventually.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.01 18:51:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Soldarius
Sin, +5% large hybrid damage and +20% to Remote Sensor Dampening effectiveness. Screw the drones.


Great, another worthless Gallente T2 ship nobody will want to fly. You are aware that Sensor damps and hybrids are absolutely terrible, right?

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.01 22:06:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Ogogov


Great, another worthless Gallente T2 ship nobody will want to fly. You are aware that Sensor damps and hybrids are absolutely terrible, right?


no they dont know. i doubt most ccp members even pvp. the other day i saw a topic about what activities devs are doin in eve. mostly were pveíng and fw. so my guess is that only a very small % dev/ccp employm actualy flies gallente ships.

anyway, i will see what incursion brings. if after patch 3.0 still no announcement is made or any change is visable im closing & changing all my posts from this topic in "srry my logs show nothing" as it is a waste of time and pixels past 14 months. its a shame that a good assemblyhall issue gets waved away. **trend continues, who cares about pvp anyway amirite?**


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