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blankseplocked [Proposal] Revamp Black Ops ships; Make them usefull
 
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iam nameless
Amarr
TBEB

Posted - 2009.11.30 12:36:00 - [31]
 

this

Dirkfall
Posted - 2009.12.01 14:16:00 - [32]
 

this

Mr Xanatos
Posted - 2009.12.01 14:26:00 - [33]
 

700 mil waste of iskies.

My Sin has been sitting in the hanger for months. Did a couple of SB hot drops one day for the fun of it, thats about it really, the Sin stayed in hi sec all plated up for fear of gankers. No way id take it into low sec due to its fail combat stats.

I think my mains corp has a small pos that needs fuel so I might bridge a couple cov haulers from hi sec to the pos to refuel it. Then ill park her till next month when the pos cries again.

Black Ops needs a lot of luv

Alexis Zalman
Posted - 2009.12.01 15:00:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Mr Xanatos
700 mil waste of iskies.

My Sin has been sitting in the hanger for months. Did a couple of SB hot drops one day for the fun of it, thats about it really,

I've been having my sin for about 5 months, only use of it is for hotdroping with bombers, and this rarely happens, due to laughtable jump range.

BOs beed 10ly jump range after skills apply, better resists and Cov ops cloaks. I know this was highly disputed since they were introduced, but we've seen by now that ragular cloaks don't cut it. And since they are outperformed in tank and DPS by their T1 counterparts, cov ops cloaks will give em more situation to be useful in, instead of making them any kind of solopwnmobile.

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.12.01 17:48:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: davet517 on 01/12/2009 17:54:21
I unwisely started training for the Widow as soon as they were announced. I've used it for its intended purpose a handfull of times, and was disappointed when I did.

They need a better jump range and fuel capacity (either increased hold or decreased consumption). Not being able to make many region jumps defeats the primary role of these ships. I don't think Dread range is unreasonable for a ship whose hull costs as much as some carrier hulls.

They need to warp cloaked. Being the only ship in a black-ops gang that can't makes using them, even in a recon and bomber gang, a minus in many cases.

They either need their HP restored, or they need T2 resists and command-ship-like mass and agility.

Look at what the ship costs. To justify that cost, the benefit that they provide needs to be a "must have". In other words, nobody would even consider taking out a recon and bomber gang without a Black-Ops. That isn't the case now. Not even close.

Dave Meltdown
Viziam
Posted - 2009.12.02 16:04:00 - [36]
 

Maybe it is a idea to add the titan cloak restriction to the black ops and give them cov op cloak. The titan cloak restriclion for 10 min after u have fired the dd is actualy what u need to make cov op black ops not to over powered.

Arcane Azmadi
Caldari
First Flying Wing Inc
Primary.
Posted - 2009.12.02 21:46:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Arcane Azmadi on 02/12/2009 21:46:14
Oh hell yes, this needs to be done ASAP! I think the simple problem is that they're WEAKER IN COMBAT THAN T1 BS, despite being 10-20 times as expensive and taking 50 times as long to train for. Yes, I know their primary role is not as a combat vessel, which is good because currently they're PATHETIC.

They're T2 battleships! We should be getting what we pay for here. Make them at least as tough as the T1 equivalents.

Z0D
Minmatar
Rubycom Matrix
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
Posted - 2009.12.02 23:40:00 - [38]
 

Issue supported and raised for meeting 2.

Wiki page here pending approval.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers

Posted - 2009.12.03 04:45:00 - [39]
 

As a Caldari pilot heavily invested into covert/black ops and such, I cannot stress how important it is to have the right tools. The Black Ops battleship concept is fabulous. The implementation is EPIC FAIL!

Just in general, there is no doubt that any T2 ship should have superior stats than its T1 base. Having sub-par hp is inexcusable. Give them at least the same structure and armor as T1, if not more. Give them T2 resists. I don't expect them to go toe-to-toe with a Golem or Rohk. That is not their role. But they are battleships for crying out loud, not battle-cruisers.

The role is called Black Ops. They are supposed to drop ships in behind enemy lines, follow, wreak havoc, then get everyone the hell out. Why do they not have covert cloak when every other ship in that role does? Another fail. Make it happen.

Jump gate range is too short. 1 or 2 jumps for range is totally fail. May as well just use the darn gates. Oh, wait. No covert ops cloak. FAIL!

Price tag = cha-ching! $$$$$$$$$$$. Are you kidding? No one flies these, not because they are hard to produce, very rare, or even difficult to find. But because they suck. With so little demand for them, why are they still so expensive? Manufacturers should be giving these away by now! Slash prices to increase purchase incentive. More folks will buy them and perhaps find more inventive ways to use them.

Fail x4 = EPIC FAIL. These issues can be fixed easily. So lets make it happen.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.04 23:05:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 04/12/2009 23:08:58
Originally by: Z0D
Issue supported and raised for meeting 2.

Wiki page here pending approval.


Looking forward towards the minutes

Kyle Cataclysm
Blue.

Posted - 2009.12.05 01:59:00 - [41]
 

supported

Dave Meltdown
Viziam
Posted - 2009.12.06 11:04:00 - [42]
 

omg page 3

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute

Posted - 2009.12.12 22:26:00 - [43]
 

Haha, I actually got two characters who both can fly black ops (Redeemer and Panther), so I guess I should have a pretty high interest in supporting this issue.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.22 16:17:00 - [44]
 

This has been passed by the CSM with 9 votes for and 0 against. More input about what to change always welcome, lets help ccp abit with sorting out stuff they needed to do ages ago...

Kiithnaras
Minmatar
Lethal Injection.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2009.12.22 16:42:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Kiithnaras on 22/12/2009 17:32:11
Edited by: Kiithnaras on 22/12/2009 17:04:46
---Short List for the ADD---
Improved Jumprange
Reduced Mass
Recon Resists
Covert Cynos in Highsec
Lower Bridging Costs
Panther and Sin Lovin'
----------------------------

I support this thought a hundred percent. Black ops would really benefit from Recon resists, improved jump range, and reduced mass (equal or less than T1 equivalent). Those three things across the board would make them much more useful. The other thing that should be extended to all black ops is the ability to light covert cynos in highsec (Seeing as covert cynos circumvent any form of cynojamming - they implemented that, right?). One more thing - I've always said that Covert Jump Portals should have their jumpPortalConsumptionMassFactor dropped from 1.8e-07 to 1.0e-07, in effect reducing the total amount of isotopes needed to bridge some of the bigger ships like force recons and blockade runners. That would make the cost to bridge, say, a Falcon just slightly more than jumping the black ops itself the same distance.

Personally, I am not a fan of pushing for covert cloaks, but I could go either way.

The Sin and Panther do need a bit of love. I would say with the panther that it would be okay to keep the bonuses as-is except swap the 5% velocity for 10% falloff and add an additional turret. With the Sin, some sort of additional drone or hybrid-based bonus would be good in place of the agility. Either some sort of control range bonus or optimal/tracking bonus for guns.

And I am one of those rare Panther pilots. It's fun, but I rarely use it.

Edit: I was just discussing with a friend of mine and came up with the idea for Black Ops command bonuses. Basically, they would either passively or as a module give Ewar bonuses to the portion of fleet they boost for their racial type (Nos/Neut + TD for Redeemer, ECM for Widow, Sensordamping and Warp Disruption for Sin, and Webbing and Painting for Panther).

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.12.23 23:22:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 23/12/2009 23:46:12

Originally by: Kiithnaras


The Sin and Panther do need a bit of love. I would say with the panther that it would be okay to keep the bonuses as-is except swap the 5% velocity for 10% falloff and add an additional turret. With the Sin, some sort of additional drone or hybrid-based bonus would be good in place of the agility. Either some sort of control range bonus or optimal/tracking bonus for guns.



I think the complete Shiphull is wrong. Drones are not the right type for the job. Swapping the Sin hull for a Megathron would be better. The Black Op bonus should be a turret falloff bonus so its inline with the other Black Ops.

  • Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per skill level


  • Black Ops Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to large hybrid turret falloff per level and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level


The Black Op bonus gives the pilot the option for more range and reduced damage or more damage and shorter range. However this all should be balanced out.

I totaly agree on these things:

-Improved Jumprange
-Reduced Mass
-Recon Resists
-Covert Cynos in Highsec
-Lower Bridging Costs
-Panther and Sin Lovin'

Jumprange needs some serious love. Mass reduction makes them usable in wormholes. Black Ops are kinda Recons so recon resists are welcome. I would limit the covert op cyno to stealth bombers, black ops and recons or ships with cov op module. Trading can be affected by allowing blockade runners to use covert op cyno's.

The costs for bridging are way to high. In a 1000m3 sin fuel bay go's 6666 Oxygen Isotopes. How about changing the use of fuel. The Covert jump portal generator will only use fuel when u put the bridge up. Lets say it uses 1000 Oxygen Isotopes for each activation. That should be enough to solve the fule issue



SebbyTheFreak
Caldari
Vagrant Troubadours of the Vast Expenses
Bitter Nomad's Orchestra
Posted - 2009.12.24 16:49:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: SebbyTheFreak on 24/12/2009 16:49:22
They could AT LEAST have warfare links...

Like... the only way to have a warfare link in a blop gang is with a t3 cruiser...

van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2009.12.28 11:40:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Kiithnaras


---Short List for the ADD---
Improved Jumprange
Reduced Mass
Recon Resists
Covert Cynos in Highsec
Lower Bridging Costs
Panther and Sin Lovin'
----------------------------



Your post has virtually everything needed to create a viable and fun Black Ops experience. They don't need more HP and they don't need more DPS. What they do need is better range and better fuel economy. Add to that the ability to use Covert Cynos in Highsec, then they're golden. The only thing I would like to add is that they remove the scan resolution penalty from cloaks.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.12.28 12:12:00 - [49]
 

I think allowing covert cynos into high sec will make them more useful as that will allow for a more surprise warfare in high sec space. This was suggested to CCP by CSM3 and CCP was favourable towards the idea.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2009.12.28 14:39:00 - [50]
 

Cov op cloaks, one more tank slot, and give Sin and Panther bigger drone bays is my vote.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2009.12.28 17:58:00 - [51]
 

I can fly a BO. When I heard they were coming, I was excited... then I noticed the jump range and didn't get one.

I have seen BOs used. However considering the effort and expense and the actual results they had, the traditional "bait then bring in the fleet" method would have worked better.

Because of the SP and isk sunk into running a BO gang, there are generally only a few groups who do them in any given location. So, after running a BO gang a few times, the locals get wise and reverse the trap, trapping and eventually killing the BOs.

They need love. Range would make a huge difference. At the very least, enough range would make it significantly harder to track down the BOs that are bridging the gang in.

Mike Roche
Hour of Reckoning
Dee Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.28 18:16:00 - [52]
 

Blackops?
Need more damage, flexability and EW to make up for poor tanks.

They are deployed for hit and run in gangs and all offer heavy duty gunnary DPS and some EW (not quite in the same class as recons) as well as command abilities:

Redeemer: 7.5% to large energy damage, 7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to neut amount per level
Sin: 7.5% to large hybrid damage, 7.5% to large hybrid tracking, 10% to warp disruption per level (screw drones give it 6 guns)
Panther: 7.5% to large projectile damage, 20% to large projectile falloff, 10% to webifier range per level
Widow: 5% to hybrid optimal, 5% to hybrid damage per level, 30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength

All of these ships should have 6 gun slots and 2 utility slots, they should also require command skills and be able to fit command modules (fitting usage reduction as per command ships).

New penalty to even things up -20% to active tank repair/boost (not sure if this should include remote repping too, probably) this in addition to their poor natural tank means that deploying them means weighing up the odds!

I also think the jump portal should give 100% more range but the whole fleet must jump through, including the black ops, if you are going to engage, do it and do it together and risk it, then jump out together if it lives!

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2009.12.28 18:54:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Mike Roche
Blackops?
they should also require command skills and be able to fit command modules (fitting usage reduction as per command ships).



Yeah, that would only make sense if the BO could turn itself inside out and jump through the bridge it made. If black ops had to, titans would also have to. In both cases, I think the pilots of said ships would not like this idea.

Mike Roche
Hour of Reckoning
Dee Alliance
Posted - 2009.12.28 19:42:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Mike Roche
Blackops?
they should also require command skills and be able to fit command modules (fitting usage reduction as per command ships).



Yeah, that would only make sense if the BO could turn itself inside out and jump through the bridge it made. If black ops had to, titans would also have to. In both cases, I think the pilots of said ships would not like this idea.



Hi bagehi, I'll talk to you on vent tonight with my main :)

I think titans should also have to use the jb when it is activated and move the whole fleet in one basicly it would open up a oversized wormhole and pull all fleet ships into it within a certain range. The idea of having a ship that basicly just sits around bridging people is annoying to me. In terms of physics.. creating wormholes basicly are turning yourself and space time inside out punching a hole in it and so going through the short way. So it is no more bizarre or unrealistic then that.

If you are in a fleet and are moving the fleet you should move with it, this would give more consequences tactics and basicly fun and risk to using this.

Plus the epicness of having a titan drop on you with a fleet. Same goes for black ops to a lesser extent.

Besides I digress. Black ops need to be the core of any black ops group not just sitting at a pos bridging stuff a pitiful distance and (rarely) failing in combat when actually used at the right time.

Mystified
Caldari
Posted - 2010.01.11 14:53:00 - [55]
 

Have a discussion thread here about this as well:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1243868

The T1 battleships are more powerful than the BO. I bought one when they first came out and it has sat in my hangar collecting dust because it's pretty close to useless

Personally, I would like to see a Cov Op cloak and more stats in line with the tech level of the BO. Jump range would be nice and maybe better mileage as well.

For those of you who think it will be overpowered - with just better resists, longer jump range, and a cov op cloak it still won't be able to compete with a T1 BS (but, it will at least have a chance to get away)

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.01.11 16:35:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Mike Roche
Widow: 5% to hybrid optimal, 5% to hybrid damage per level, 30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength



Why would you give hybrid boni to a scorpion hull? Rolling Eyes

H3llHound
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.01.11 17:14:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: H3llHound on 11/01/2010 17:25:33
BO need a boost. Maybe double the jumprange to 9 ly on jdc5. Give them a HP buff and review the T2 resists on them. And make them able to lock onto cyno generators and normal cynos.

Juwi Kotch
KOTCH Construction and Anchoring
Posted - 2010.01.11 18:44:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Juwi Kotch on 11/01/2010 18:45:41

Black Ops Ships were really cool when the idea came out. But CCP nerved them to oblivion. The role they were assigned to cannot be fulfilled by them, and for any other use they are too weak and too expensive. Pity, really, and no wonder that more Titans are flown in game than Black Ops Ships.

Do anything to them, regardless what, what gives them a use and a purpose based on their cyno and jump capabilities. EWAR is one of the ideas, for instance. Or something completely new and unique, like the ability to cloak during a fight or something. Anything. Or remove them from the game totally, keep those abominations out of our sight.

Tuvar Hiede
Caldari
Quovis
Posted - 2010.01.11 20:02:00 - [59]
 


Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.20 23:00:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 20/01/2010 23:00:23
yay, ccp gave them some love: "patches notes dominion 1.1: •Ships with a Covert Jump Portal Generator can now bridge to a Cynosural Generator Array as well as a Cynosural Field."

However they need more love, they are still broken....


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