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Trail Stevens
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:55:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Trail Stevens on 19/07/2011 17:16:30
Two words: Interdiction nullification.

Flame me.

Edit: and something that makes me having BLOPS lvl 5 worthwhile. Starting to think I should have trained jump cal V or carrier V instead. :p

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.19 17:07:00 - [392]
 

The only tweaks BLOPS need are fuel bay size and jump range. Based on our corps experiences running BLOPS these are the only concerns that come up consistently no matter what type of fleet we try to use.

Miskoranda
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2011.07.20 07:35:00 - [393]
 

To those who say they shouldn't use a covops cloak, I add: T3's. You can get 104K EHP out of a Proteus which can fit a cloak, has lower sig than any Black Ops BS, does 450DPS and gets scram range bonus, much greater scan res and agility, all fitted for the same cost as a Blops hull. If you compare the Black ops BS's to this, how could giving them a covert cloak create an out-of-control solo pwnmobile?

People are running massed cloaky T3 gangs, or T3 gangs with interdiction nullifiers, as it is. T3's have outclassed even a wet dream Blops scenario of covops cloak cloaky-warping battleships around.

I think the idea from '09 of splitting the class into two roles like Command Ships has merits: one for porting, the other for cloaky gangs.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.21 01:05:00 - [394]
 

Originally by: Miskoranda
To those who say they shouldn't use a covops cloak, I add: T3's. You can get 104K EHP out of a Proteus which can fit a cloak, has lower sig than any Black Ops BS, does 450DPS and gets scram range bonus, much greater scan res and agility, all fitted for the same cost as a Blops hull. If you compare the Black ops BS's to this, how could giving them a covert cloak create an out-of-control solo pwnmobile?


OK ill bite. Lets say we give black ops the covert cloak.

Now we have a ship that has the ability to enter a system completely undetected save by the local count increasing (Because you jumped in to your covert cyno), no intel on how you got in or where you landed(the cyno is invisible unless you're on grid), no indication of where you went after you arrived (because you covert cloak) and no way to catch you unless you're the kind of idiot who makes cletus the slack jawed yokel look like stephen ****ing hawking. Oh and you can do all of this starting from a system light years away because you're jump capable, in ships that can easily get 1000dps from a combat focused fit.

And to top it all off if things are too tough for you solo just bring some friends, they dont even have to worry about getting into the target system thanks to the handy jump portal you can make for them.

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2011.07.21 02:45:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Originally by: Miskoranda
To those who say they shouldn't use a covops cloak, I add: T3's. You can get 104K EHP out of a Proteus which can fit a cloak, has lower sig than any Black Ops BS, does 450DPS and gets scram range bonus, much greater scan res and agility, all fitted for the same cost as a Blops hull. If you compare the Black ops BS's to this, how could giving them a covert cloak create an out-of-control solo pwnmobile?


OK ill bite. Lets say we give black ops the covert cloak.

Now we have a ship that has the ability to enter a system completely undetected save by the local count increasing (Because you jumped in to your covert cyno), no intel on how you got in or where you landed(the cyno is invisible unless you're on grid), no indication of where you went after you arrived (because you covert cloak) and no way to catch you unless you're the kind of idiot who makes cletus the slack jawed yokel look like stephen ****ing hawking. Oh and you can do all of this starting from a system light years away because you're jump capable, in ships that can easily get 1000dps from a combat focused fit.

And to top it all off if things are too tough for you solo just bring some friends, they don't even have to worry about getting into the target system thanks to the handy jump portal you can make for them.



Further imagine that it's 100 guys and not one.

I like the idea of covert cloaks on them, but larger groups of them I feel would be game breaking. And as we all know small groups is not the current paradigm.

Miskoranda
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2011.07.21 05:15:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus


OK ill bite. Lets say we give black ops the covert cloak.

Now we have a ship that has the ability to enter a system completely undetected save by the local count increasing (Because you jumped in to your covert cyno), no intel on how you got in or where you landed(the cyno is invisible unless you're on grid), no indication of where you went after you arrived (because you covert cloak) and no way to catch you unless you're the kind of idiot who makes cletus the slack jawed yokel look like stephen ****ing hawking. Oh and you can do all of this starting from a system light years away because you're jump capable, in ships that can easily get 1000dps from a combat focused fit.



Guess what, there's these things called wormholes. wuuurm. hoooles.

So, your argument is that Blops can enter a system undetected except for +1 local, and this unbalances the game how? You can do this with recons, T3's already, if you live in w-space. Its not an auto-win button by a long shot. For a start, Local is too much of a crutch for you crybaby nullsec carebears. Oh, sorry, I mean hardass PVP deathdozers. When we lived in a C3 with K346 null static, we'd jump into system, hit d-scan. 5 drakes, wrecks. 10s later, either local has cleared (logoffski's) or d-scan has cleared (warp to safe, cloak). Then, if your carebears are desperate for cash and the mafioso they pay rent to are bored, you have 10-30+ dudes turn up in Local and it all turns to pup tents, kumbayah and smoky barbeque. They find your wormhole, and light a cyno, and you've got 3 aeons camping a wormhole exit. Yeah, a cloaky-warping BS is going to unbalance that right there!

You then go on to complain that Blops are a force multiplier which allows you to leverage multiple frinds from a system far, far away. like some kind of Darth Vader special weapon. Except, your average nullbear schoolgirl insta-safe POS-hugging My Little Pony tribute ratter will more than likely have the ability to port cap ships and supercaps.

If you think I'm kidding, you clearly don't know nullsec. its a hive of weenies, cowards and is safer than highsec these days because you can't be caught by neutral RR because there's no such thing. IMO, the more they free up black ops, the better it will make PVP in nullsec.

You'd be better off complaining aboutthe upcoming degradation of Local channel functionality in un-upgraded space. Then you'll be at risk for the first time ever.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.21 12:09:00 - [397]
 

Can you create a wormhole on demand in any system you chose for a few hundred units of ice products? A wormhole that is impossible to detect unless the person making it is a total idiot and cant be camped because it only exists for a few minutes? Didnt think so.

Trying to compare wormholes to covert cynos is missing the point on an epic scale. You also make the mistake of assuming I'm only talking about nullsec, although your comments about the timidity of a lot of the people who live there are fair. My alliance has been running lowsec black ops gangs for months and we're well aware of how powerful they can be.

The simple fact is that the black ops does not need any extra capabilitites to be a powerful and viable ship, what it needs is a boost to the things it can already do ie. extra jump range and increased fuel bay size.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.21 14:19:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Originally by: Miskoranda
To those who say they shouldn't use a covops cloak, I add: T3's. You can get 104K EHP out of a Proteus which can fit a cloak, has lower sig than any Black Ops BS, does 450DPS and gets scram range bonus, much greater scan res and agility, all fitted for the same cost as a Blops hull. If you compare the Black ops BS's to this, how could giving them a covert cloak create an out-of-control solo pwnmobile?


OK ill bite. Lets say we give black ops the covert cloak.

Now we have a ship that has the ability to enter a system completely undetected save by the local count increasing (Because you jumped in to your covert cyno), no intel on how you got in or where you landed(the cyno is invisible unless you're on grid), no indication of where you went after you arrived (because you covert cloak) and no way to catch you unless you're the kind of idiot who makes cletus the slack jawed yokel look like stephen ****ing hawking. Oh and you can do all of this starting from a system light years away because you're jump capable, in ships that can easily get 1000dps from a combat focused fit.

And to top it all off if things are too tough for you solo just bring some friends, they dont even have to worry about getting into the target system thanks to the handy jump portal you can make for them.



Do u even are fimiliar with the cyno mechanics? How do u cyno in a undetecable? u realize u need a cyna alt yes? Would he be blue? (thats retorical question)

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.07.23 02:09:00 - [399]
 

I think the most important thing as far as getting Black Ops to be used more is not to buff the ships themselves, but rather to buff the black ops actions which they are designed to be used for.

So what I'm saying is, instead of trying to upgrade their stats, there should be changes to gameplay outside of the ships that make using them a much more popular strategy.

br'akken
Posted - 2011.07.23 03:13:00 - [400]
 

The only things that black ops need are better tracking (explosion radius,velocity, and torp speed. For the widow.). And covert ops cloak.   

NOT so it can jump in and warp undetected. But so it can ALSO warp around the system undetected.

We waited in belt so long once,  I actually fell asleep!  
Once I finally make contact yes.  Black ops is adzactly a WTF pawn mobile in 1v1 situations.  

As well it should be when it cost more than a carrier.  
But you add a couple more ships and it can quickly become a trophy kill to even the noobest pvp gang.  

As it is now just bring a buddy to rat in the belt your in,  and wait until somone takes the bait.  Now you have even more mid slots for ECM,  and some backup.

Covert cloak isn't overpowered because of the saftey in numbers philosophy that already neutralizes the Black Ops today.  It just gives the pilot more PVP opportunities.  
Some of which will cost him a billion ISK.
If you can afford to PVP in that everyday you deserve to. 

And no a large % of people cannot afford to do it.  

Now where's my BLOPS Carrier?!?  It could be a regular carrier that can still use drones while cloaked. That's all.

Oh yeah the compromise could be that the BLOPS could only cloak from 0 to 3/4 warp speed  making it scannable withought making it impractical.  And as far as jumping in a fleet why not just give it a mass limit like wh's?  Say enough for a fleet of 6 bombers? Or mabe a stealth carrier? Hmmm?

Until then... if you warp in on me ratting "alone"  in a lach, dont bother calling for backup,  don't waste time trying to run.  My alts are flying a widow, and a command Loki.  My Lach doubles as a cyno straight to my triage mom fleets teet;  And for you it's already way too late.

Midnight Pheonix
Dark Reality Unified
INVICTUS ALLIANCE
Posted - 2011.07.23 08:11:00 - [401]
 

In a recent interview. CCP Soundwave suggested that they will be repurposing the Black Ops like they did with the Bombers. Any hopes and maybe speculation on what they might turn into in the near future?

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/content/141-eve-online-incarnated.html

In the interview from Timestamp 11:00 to 11:30 is where it is specifically discussed.

Cheers,

Midna

SMT008
Posted - 2011.07.23 14:18:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Fara Naava
Edited by: Fara Naava on 08/05/2011 23:11:13
Something else: How would everyone feel about splitting blackops into two versions ?

-one "combat black ops" with no portal for others, but those nice t2 resists + all the grid + combat boni that were proposed

-one "support black ops" with increased jump range + much bigger fuel bay + (maybe some kind of command bonus stuff)


THIS !

CCP, you're doing things that are usually great and all, and thank you for that.

But still, it takes you YEARS to change some stats regarded as "Overly stupid" ! How hard would it be to see that Black Ops are underused ? Then, how hard would it be to change like, 3 or so values and to see what happens ? It's not like EVE's going to collapse if you buffed then a bit too much.

Really, two versions of the BO. That would fix everything. The Combat Black Op for quick "I'm in ! I'm ganking you and oohh session change timer is done, I killed you, I'm jumping out !"

T2 Resistances
Shield/Armor/Structure HP according to it's "combat battleship" status
About the same DPS as right now (More or less, 1k per ship)
More powergrid (+2k on every BOs), seriously. The Sin have 11000 at max skills, you can't even fit 4 neutron blasters without needing any PWG module. That is awfull.
Less stupid bonuses (Agility, Speed ?). In my humble opinion :

Panther =>

Battleship bonus : 5% Damage, 5% ROF
BO bonus : 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers, 10% Web Range

That would prevent the target from going away. at lvl 5, that would be a 15km web range with T2, and something like 19.5km web range with T2 and overload.

Redeemer =>

Battleship bonus : 10% reduction to cap use, 5% ROF
BO bonus : 20% reduction to neutralizers cap usage, 15% reduction to neutralizers duration.

Those bonuses would allow fast (reduction to neuts duration :)) neutralization capabilities, but without using too much cap, as capacitor is needed to jump out afterward.

Sin =>

Battleship bonus : 5% Damage, 10% drone hitpoints and damage
BO bonus : 15% bonus to warp scramblers/disruptors range, 10% Remote sensor dampeners efficiency.

Looks like a big Arazu with a jump drive. Can scramble at 18.9km with T2 and overload.

Widow =>

Battleship bonus : 10% bonus to missile velocity, 10% bonus to explosion velocity and signature radius
BO bonus : 30% bonus to ECM Target jammer strength, and an other one, maybe like target painter bonus ?

Nothing to say here. Except that, with BOs being sturdier, less ECMslots will be needed, and that makes room for Target painters.

And the second version, more like covert gang support, and that means :

T2 Resistances
Actual Shield/Armor/Structure HP
Poor DPS (Like, a good cruiser's DPS) but good Ewar capabilities
No Covert Ops Cloacking, it's already really difficult to catch.
Increased jump range
Dramatically increased fuel bay capacity (10k. Or reduce the fuel needed per ton, that would fix the problem aswell)
Special Command bonuses (Maybe create a new set of bonuses, like things that would be usefull to cloacky ships ? Scan resolution ? Reduced "delay before locking" for recon cruisers ?)

That would successfully create a ship that can jump and bridge ships for quite a long time, that can jump on the field (Covert cyno is 30s, Bridge is 20s, so you can actually get on the field right after your covertmates, so you can give them bonuses !
Also, DPS would be so poor that it wouldn't be used as a combat ship (Cloacky T3 would be cheaper and would have the same tank/DPS)

And, just in the end, I would allow this version of the Black Op Battleship to have a fitting service. It doesn't sounds too powerfull to me, since the Black Op is supposed to be an undercover mobile base of operation for covert gangs.

Finally, it's all about cost/capabilities. For such an expensive and skill intensive ship, that's what I would want to get in the end.

Reithan
Sick Tight
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.07.24 04:23:00 - [403]
 

Holy hell yes. Blops have so much promise to be such an awesome fun toy to use in game, but they're currently SOOOOO limited, SOOOOO overpriced and SOOOOOO underpowered.

For example, the widow vs the scorpion has:

Less Structure
Less Shields
Less Armor
Less targeting range
Less rig slots
Less PG
No turret hards (-4)


More thermal resist (10%more)
Smaller Sig
Better Scan res
12 more m/s
1 more high (used for cloak)
10 more CPU (used for cloak)
1 more launcher hard

It's just not a good tradeoff for the money. Scorpion is roughly 50m, maybe 70m fitted. Widow is NEARLY A BILLION FITTED.

So, for the price of a DOZEN scorpions, I can have a scorpion that has some awesome nifty abilities...but it fundamentally LESS GOOD than the scorpion? NO THANK YOU.

Yana Steel
Posted - 2011.07.24 12:04:00 - [404]
 

This point may have been raised already.

Any buff or review should seriously consider the fact that it takes considerable time training skills up to be an effective Blops pilot yet the class is largely something of a gimmick or novelty due to its ineffectiveness unless blobbing with them or used as a poor mans titan.







SMT008
Posted - 2011.07.26 16:01:00 - [405]
 

Bumping for great justice.

Trail Stevens
Posted - 2011.08.06 17:13:00 - [406]
 

Here's one.

1) Add covert cloak

2) Player in black ops = player not in local

There, now you can pvp in null sec without having to try to miraculously catch people before they run to posses or have to fight supers. Not being in local is not game breaking because it is like that in wormhole so that is established as reasonable.

For all the nubs that think being able to warp cloaked and cyno is some sort of an overpowered advantage. You should look into combat scanner probes. They can kinda cover an entire system with no prob. And 30 seconds required to covert cyno is more than enough time to spot someone.

Lance Stratos
Posted - 2011.08.06 19:25:00 - [407]
 

needs a boost to EWAR to make them more used. or give them a better tank. that what i say.

Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.07 02:38:00 - [408]
 

A covert ops cloak would be cool but, ya I can see it being a bit to overpowered. For me I think the only thing that needs to be changed is jump range and maybe fuel bay but I won't push it. No need to change dps rate/ rate of fire or any of that...

Who ever made the comment about them taking a long time to train....really a jump drive equipped battleship takes to long?! Give me a break...

They are pricy, but well worth the cost. I have no issue paying the current price for them.

Learath
Posted - 2011.08.08 05:09:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Darek Castigatus
Originally by: Miskoranda
To those who say they shouldn't use a covops cloak, I add: T3's. You can get 104K EHP out of a Proteus which can fit a cloak, has lower sig than any Black Ops BS, does 450DPS and gets scram range bonus, much greater scan res and agility, all fitted for the same cost as a Blops hull. If you compare the Black ops BS's to this, how could giving them a covert cloak create an out-of-control solo pwnmobile?


OK ill bite. Lets say we give black ops the covert cloak.

Now we have a ship that has the ability to enter a system completely undetected save by the local count increasing (Because you jumped in to your covert cyno), no intel on how you got in or where you landed(the cyno is invisible unless you're on grid), no indication of where you went after you arrived (because you covert cloak) and no way to catch you unless you're the kind of idiot who makes cletus the slack jawed yokel look like stephen ****ing hawking. Oh and you can do all of this starting from a system light years away because you're jump capable, in ships that can easily get 1000dps from a combat focused fit.

And to top it all off if things are too tough for you solo just bring some friends, they dont even have to worry about getting into the target system thanks to the handy jump portal you can make for them.



Wow! That sounds *nearly* as bad as WH space.

Aramis Rosicrux
Gallente
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
Posted - 2011.08.10 19:10:00 - [410]
 

I OPPOSE MOST OF THESE IDEAS, AND HERE IS WHY:

You are trying to make the ship a better combat vehicle, and we got craploads of great combat vehicles already.

This is a small gang covert semi-dedicated as a jump bridge for coverts...

Lets think about what a small gang, far into o.o needs.


1. How about a fitting room for ships, and a repair bay? And they can be used by the smaller gang ships (but NOT the BO ship itself) when repairs and refits are needed.

2. How about a covert area shield, a ship uncloaked by itself is effectively cloaked when near to the BO ship, allow ammo changes, refit and repairs.

3. How about an Anti-cloak pulse that breaks ALL cloaks in the grid (friendly and enemy and neutral?)

4. How about ability to fit one gang warfare module?

5. How about it grants extra bonuses to gang mates in grid, maybe extra sensor/ECCM/agility or maybe a speed bonus to whole fleet while in the same grid as the BO ship?

My point is we dont need an extra turret or more damage as they make the ship more useful for average pilots and soloers, but do little for the intended role.

Thank you,


Aramis Rosicrux

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:14:00 - [411]
 

More jump range, lower build cost - job done.


Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:33:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Aramis Rosicrux
I OPPOSE MOST OF THESE IDEAS, AND HERE IS WHY:

You are trying to make the ship a better combat vehicle, and we got craploads of great combat vehicles already.

This is a small gang covert semi-dedicated as a jump bridge for coverts...

Lets think about what a small gang, far into o.o needs.


1. How about a fitting room for ships, and a repair bay? And they can be used by the smaller gang ships (but NOT the BO ship itself) when repairs and refits are needed.

2. How about a covert area shield, a ship uncloaked by itself is effectively cloaked when near to the BO ship, allow ammo changes, refit and repairs.

3. How about an Anti-cloak pulse that breaks ALL cloaks in the grid (friendly and enemy and neutral?)

4. How about ability to fit one gang warfare module?

5. How about it grants extra bonuses to gang mates in grid, maybe extra sensor/ECCM/agility or maybe a speed bonus to whole fleet while in the same grid as the BO ship?

My point is we dont need an extra turret or more damage as they make the ship more useful for average pilots and soloers, but do little for the intended role.

Thank you,


Aramis Rosicrux


You have several neat suggestions... Although I'm not sure on the implementation of many of them:
1.) This is pretty much like a mini carrier... that uses/fields covert cynos/bridges. Probably not appropriate for the BO BS.
2.) This is a very interesting idea, but would be such a PITA to program, its just not feasible! What happens when you cloak another ship? Can it warp? Can it target? Can it launch drones? Can it activate mods? Does it suffer a decloaking targeting penalty? What happens if it has drones out, and you cloak it? Will they fail to cloak if their w/in 2 km's of an object? I can think of many ways to exploit this by cloaking my enemy!
3.) This would be OP on gatecamps.... The BO sits 300 km's on grid, decloaks and pulses anytime a cloaky ship tries to enter system. There's no defense, and the BO is a little too safe. Perhaps if it was a much more limited in range, like 20 km's, and the burst counts as aggression.
4.) This could be nice...
5.) Currently fleet bonus' work by system.... I don't think they can program in grid-only bonus', as if they could, they would probably have changed gang links to work only when on grid by now!

Finally, of course they are trying to make the BO about combat... What is the primary use of a covert cyno bridge? To hotdrop... Logistics with BO is just too expensive and limited in terms of range and fuel.... This is not how the ship is designed!

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.08.18 09:27:00 - [413]
 

Black ops needs a buff of their jump range and fuel bay.

Base jump range should be at least: 4LY, 9LY with lvl5 jump drive calibration. That's the very least, it wouldn't be overpowered even if it surpassed carrier jump range. Their role is to ambush and sitting 2 jumps from the target system is not what I call ambush.

Black ops fuel bay should increase at least up to 3000m^3 at the very least, possibly even up to 5000m^3. Or they could decrease fuel usage, either way works.

ZagaBoom
Posted - 2011.09.09 12:19:00 - [414]
 

Edited by: ZagaBoom on 09/09/2011 12:33:12
There's probably good reason most of you havn't suggested this, but I cant help it :D

Give em cloaky warp! if i could cloaky warp in a black ops bs, id have one right now!

especially if you lowered sensor strength to account for the lawls pwn factor of having a 700 dps redeemer uncloak on you.

jst two cents, and their probably not so shiny as some other suggestions.

-small fleet pilot, no intentions of ever joining the null blob (cccp please realize just cause they can focus their votes, doesn't mean they vote for us all!)


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