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Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.19 14:58:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:45:10
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:44:32
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 19/05/2011 14:43:45
Originally by: Cyberus
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:


THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!




Only because of this!


As you seem to be the kind of person who only pays attention to the headlines, I'll bring you up to speed on this, (apologies for the lack of credit to the one on the thread who originally cited this fact) -- this statistic is completelyMISLEADINGand already shown to be a a red herring. If you have a Titan, you most likely will leave it piloted, as you cannot dock. So the figures in the QEN are inflated (QEN does state this in fine print). There is, with a great degree of certainty, more black ops than titans.




If the titans were so unpopular/useless as Back Ops then we basicly did not seen so much pilots flying them and mostly been parked in capital ship hangars at POS. Or even better ppl wont bother to build them

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.19 15:23:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Cyberus
Originally by: Kaelie Onren


As you seem to be the kind of person who only pays attention to the headlines, I'll bring you up to speed on this, (apologies for the lack of credit to the one on the thread who originally cited this fact) -- this statistic is completely MISLEADING and already shown to be a white elephant. If you have a Titan, you most likely will leave it piloted, as you cannot dock. So the figures in the QEN are inflated (QEN does state this in fine print). There is, with a great degree of certainty, more black ops than titans.



If the titans were so unpopular/useless as Back Ops then we basicly did not seen so much pilots flying them and mostly been parked in capital ship hangars at POS. Or even better ppl wont bother to build them


My point was just that your statement was based on a false premise. (and even then, I only piped up because you made it a point to 20pt font and bold your false premise). I make no statements about the conjectural nature of whether or not you 'see' more titans or not. Surely that will depend on what kind of player you are, (null sec, high sec etc). But I would naively expect to 'see' black ops less, I mean, they do operate cloaked most of the time right?

Mystical Might
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.05.19 17:07:00 - [363]
 

I don't get it...
Widow gets ECM bonus.
Redeemer SHOULD get Neuting Bonus.
Sin should get the Point range and damp. bonus.
And The Panther should get the Stasis web / target painting bonus.

They're, essentially, covert ops / Recon ships, just of a different size.

Mike C
Caldari
MicroFunks
Posted - 2011.05.19 23:38:00 - [364]
 

Edited by: Mike C on 19/05/2011 23:38:18
As someone who has owned two BOBS pretty much since launch (The two useful ones, Widow and Redeemer acquired in that order), I can honestly say that they should have been built on a BC platform.

Posted this many times before, but I think the BOBS should get a maintenance bay with 120km≥ of space in which you can only put Jump Harmonics 2 ships (like the rorq to barges). Thats enough to carry ONE force recon or a couple of covops/bombers. But mainly this allows you to let your people refit. Like I said, the BOBS should be a subcapital mothership. High tank, refit bays.

EDIT: And to avoid trolls trying to discredit me by stating BOBS were only created recently, I was speaking of the BOBS launch.

Quindaster
Posted - 2011.05.22 20:22:00 - [365]
 

Edited by: Quindaster on 22/05/2011 20:27:31
Black Ops need:

-More HP or better resists, I prefere better resists, cos it T2 and not T1 ships.

-Need more fuel bay, around 3-4000m3, usually if you jump or portal 2-3 ships, you don't have fuel on jump back!

-All Black Ops need 3 rig slots

-All Black Ops need 6 ly jump range

-All Black Ops need more CPU on 150 minimum, and Widow more powergrid to fit torpedos and energy neuts or smartbombs.

-Sin need new bonuses, cos now it's useless ship. Sin is not logistic, not neutro ship, not DPS ship - something useles and expensive gallente trash.

-Panther - need one more turret slot.

- T3 Covert ships need to be able to use covert cyno.

- All Black Ops shouls have some or ship maintaince bay for Recon ships (so you can put few bombers or 2 recons or T3 ship in it) Or you can add abillity to use fitting service for Black Ops.

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.05.22 21:27:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Quindaster
Edited by: Quindaster on 22/05/2011 20:27:31
Black Ops need:

-More HP or better resists, I prefere better resists, cos it T2 and not T1 ships.


No they don't

Originally by: Quindaster

-Need more fuel bay, around 3-4000m3, usually if you jump or portal 2-3 ships, you don't have fuel on jump back!


Agree'd

Originally by: Quindaster

-All Black Ops need 3 rig slots


lol wtf are you on about no t2 ship gets 3 rigs......

Originally by: Quindaster

-All Black Ops need 6 ly jump range


Cba to do the math right now but yes B'ops do need a range buff i would say +20% on what they currently have

Originally by: Quindaster

-All Black Ops need more CPU on 150 minimum, and Widow more powergrid to fit torpedos and energy neuts or smartbombs.


No they don't current fittings are fine you just need to be smart

Originally by: Quindaster

-Sin need new bonuses, cos now it's useless ship. Sin is not logistic, not neutro ship, not DPS ship - something useles and expensive gallente trash.


Sin's bonus's are fine. The issue is a more generic hybrid fix. However i've run in several fleets where sin is used as the utility B'ops (portal, neuts, RR etc)

Originally by: Quindaster

-Panther - need one more turret slot.


Lol no...

Originally by: Quindaster

- T3 Covert ships need to be able to use covert cyno.


Haven't made up my mind on this yet sooo maybe ..

Originally by: Quindaster

- All Black Ops shouls have some or ship maintaince bay for Recon ships (so you can put few bombers or 2 recons or T3 ship in it) Or you can add abillity to use fitting service for Black Ops.

No No No No

Have you actually flown B'ops?

Black ops are not meant to have huge dps or huge ehp, they are not brawlers. If you want a brawler go by a tier 1/2 BS.

Issue with B'ops is that their range and fuel bay limits their primary function of moving and supporting recon fleets. They need a slight range buff and a massive fuel bay buff. THAT IS ALL.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.05.22 21:36:00 - [367]
 

Edited by: Shepard Book on 22/05/2011 21:36:39
Oh Sarina...Some people might want to use them for more than portaling around other people. Not everyone has multiple accounts. I am not saying make them a better than t2 BS. I am saying give them a cov op cloak and a buff to either gank or tank and some need fitting help. The bonuses you speak of are helpful and needed but not all that is needed.

OK tell us all about how your the only one that knows what BOPS need again...

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.05.22 22:01:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Shepard Book
Edited by: Shepard Book on 22/05/2011 21:36:39
Oh Sarina...Some people might want to use them for more than portaling around other people. Not everyone has multiple accounts. I am not saying make them a better than t2 BS. I am saying give them a cov op cloak and a buff to either gank or tank and some need fitting help. The bonuses you speak of are helpful and needed but not all that is needed.

OK tell us all about how your the only one that knows what BOPS need again...


B'ops are slightly underpowered but this is a classic case of people demanding far too much. There are lots of things you can do to make them better but that doesn't mean you need to implement all of them.

playing around with simple fits I am getting figures like 1050 dps and 92k ehp from redeemer, 875dps and 93k ehp from the sin (still suffers from :hybrids:), 1222 dps + 78k ehp from the widow and 1046dps + 65k ehp from the panther. Bearing in mind that these are not brawling ships I would say they are doing ok actually.

The main limiting factor in B'ops fleets is fuel. The first issue we've hit in every B'ops fleet I've been in is running out of fuel to portal a recon fleet to any decent range.
Second main limiting factor is jump range. The tiny jump range drastically restricts tactical game play when it comes to hiding your fleet and making use of all the nooks and crannies in eves real star map.

The ships themselves are fine they just need a buff in their primary function.

And jesus cov'ops cloak would seriously break B'ops in terms of low-sec balence.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.23 13:06:00 - [369]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 23/05/2011 13:09:22
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 23/05/2011 13:06:23
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda

playing around with simple fits I am getting figures like 1050 dps and 92k ehp from redeemer, 875dps and 93k ehp from the sin (still suffers from :hybrids:), 1222 dps + 78k ehp from the widow and 1046dps + 65k ehp from the panther. Bearing in mind that these are not brawling ships I would say they are doing ok actually.



Pls give me screeny about how u manage to get 1222 dps from widow, is that with officer launcher?
Redeemer damage
widow damage
phanter damage
sin damage

All fits are with faction mods. I have fitted them all with only short range guns to make it comparable. Widow is often more used as ecm boat like this:
widow support ecm

This is all on L5 skills and with faction mods. Its funny if u see the sin. Only 323 dps from the blaster (witch suck) and 475 from Ogre II. Issue here is that drone dps is just slow to apply. If u would it all in damage curve u will see that a sin never can catch up with a redeemer or phanter because they can apply insta damage. For the record, with those drone upgrades the ogre's move at 1734,4 m/s at L5 skills. This sin fitting shows exacly all the mistakes of sin choise of bonus's and whole gallente as a race. T2 sentry drones are not really a option since they have weird optimals and short falloffs. They simply not practical to use them, no time to pick them up and u dont want to sit stationary in quick gank. I almost forgot, T2 torps are really bad with no bonus for exposion velocity ect. It sais it does alot of damage but in theory u just trow paper torp and u may happy if u do 300 dps on anything smaller than a carrier...

Quindaster
Posted - 2011.05.23 13:41:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
Originally by: Quindaster
Edited by: Quindaster on 22/05/2011 20:27:31


Have you actually flown B'ops?

Black ops are not meant to have huge dps or huge ehp, they are not brawlers. If you want a brawler go by a tier 1/2 BS.




Yes, I usually fly on BO, and I use it against BS, faction BS and under centry guns and not only against mining barge in belt like you.
When you use it to kill mining barge in belt, yes, you don't need anything from the list that I'm writing, but against mining barge you don't need to use BO, it's enough only simple bomber.
So, I know what I'm talking about.
This is the only one thing in EVE which is intresting to me, is flying on BO and do some recon operation.

Andy Landen
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.23 15:48:00 - [371]
 

Here is a really REALLY cool idea: Ability to hold a lock while cloaked. That's true Black ops right there. Ship scanner or cargo scanner works while cloaked for black ops recon power. Stuff like that.

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2011.05.24 02:14:00 - [372]
 

Black Ops are fine as they are. If I could have 2 wishes it'd be....

+15-20% Jump Range
-10-15% Jump Fuel Use

Whether you bridge bombers/recons/t3s around or go in and hotdrop with the BoBS both of these would be greatly welcomed. All while keeping them balanced from becoming FOTM Solo Gankers.

List of Black Ops NO's
No Covops Cloak
No Tank Boost
No DPS Boost

When utilized correctly they are quite effective. Turning them into some idealized pwnmobile will only lead to a massive nerf/rebalance no one flying black ops wants to see.

Demonic Blitz
Posted - 2011.05.24 10:18:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: McFly
Black Ops are fine as they are.


CCP added them pre-nerfed and acknowledge this.

As a prolific lover of cloaks, and someone who believes that they are much too available today, the BOBS need Covops Cloaks. In fact, I am willing to deny your intelligence because you do not believe this, while covering my ears and making childish noises.

In all seriousness, all "BOBS are fine" arguments aref actually invalid as CCP admitted they added them pre-nerfed, so screw off.

Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.05.24 15:03:00 - [374]
 

Originally by: Demonic Blitz
CCP admitted they added them pre-nerfed, so screw off.


Will respond to the other posts later but i just wanted to say pre-nerfed =/= underpowered. Also can you link this quote please.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.28 12:35:00 - [375]
 

bump

Legionos McGuiros
Caldari
Legio Prima Victrix
Imperius Legio Victrix
Posted - 2011.05.28 14:24:00 - [376]
 


Creepy Goat
Collateral.
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:04:00 - [377]
 

Oh god please. I would take my Redeemer out of the hangar if even just as a temporary compromise, we could fit covert-ops cloaks untill CCP gave Blops a proper overhaul.

They have such potential :(

Bait Van
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:18:00 - [378]
 

slightly better jump range, nothing too extreme though

better fuel usage...bridging anything immediately starts eating up your fuel, and having a cov hauler or two is helpful but eats more fuel as well

other than those two things, I'm very happy with my Panther, I don't feel like they need much more of a boost.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.31 09:59:00 - [379]
 

check check still not fixed

CelticRanger
Gallente
Black Mountain Security
R-I-P
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:00:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: CelticRanger on 06/06/2011 00:02:11
I agree with litraly everything posted on this page. At least make them like their t1 variants but with cloaking and covert cyno or bridging abilities for normal ships to covert cyno's would be interesting but I think what ever ccp does they should revisit the BO stats in this next incara update at the end of JuneVery Happy

Red Teufel
Blackened Skies
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:15:00 - [381]
 

ccp please give the black ops some loving...pretty please

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.06 22:54:00 - [382]
 

I support this since Black Ops ships are basically on my list of future skills trained...

TopShatta
Caldari
I.M.M
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.06.18 14:44:00 - [383]
 

fix this pls

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.06.19 20:54:00 - [384]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 19/06/2011 20:54:11
Originally by: Hemmo Paskiainen
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 23/05/2011 13:09:22
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 23/05/2011 13:06:23
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda

playing around with simple fits I am getting figures like 1050 dps and 92k ehp from redeemer, 875dps and 93k ehp from the sin (still suffers from :hybrids:), 1222 dps + 78k ehp from the widow and 1046dps + 65k ehp from the panther. Bearing in mind that these are not brawling ships I would say they are doing ok actually.


sin damage

All fits are with faction mods. I have fitted them all with only short range guns to make it comparable.

This is all on L5 skills and with faction mods. Its funny if u see the sin. Only 323 dps from the blaster (witch suck) and 475 from Ogre II.
The problem isn't the ship, it's the fit you've tried to bolt onto it. The Sin's bonus is actually very good if used properly (equivalent effect on agility, of having 2x nanofiber fitted).

Really the only major problem with the Sin is the same as the others - not enough jump range to realistically *do* the sneaky beaky stuff. Oh and blasters... Neutral

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.19 22:46:00 - [385]
 

just make them be able to participate in small battles, as i would like to use them for fight
and a logis probably wont be fielded with them ,make them much more resilient ,t2 resists at least + better base hp-s

Johnny May
Posted - 2011.06.20 07:15:00 - [386]
 

i am flying redeemer and widow,
don't know much about the other two blackops,
but i assume they are compareable.

A bit more fuel space would be fine, but working with cloaked hauler buddies pretty much makes this a lot less of an issue.

people have been asking for adding a covert cloak to the blackops, and as a blackop pilot, i have to disagree, a covert ops cloak would boost the blackops way too high, it allready is a good ship for its purpose.

alot of people seem to be complaining about buffer, dps output or both, to those i can only say: learn to fit. a proper setup blackops can 1on1 most regular fit battleships.

then there is the *****ing about the jump range - guys remember that the blackops is no capital ship and can use regular gates aswell, the jump drive helps in its role as a suprise weapon, but it shouldn't be its primary means of moving arround.

i believe that most of the 'blackops need a change/boost' comes from a crowd that in itself has not found a way how to use the blackops yet - the same people that fit cargo extenders on it and use it for a simple bridge.

Blackops ships as they are are good, they just need to be used in the right role.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.06.28 09:55:00 - [387]
 

Originally by: Hemmo Paskiainen
words


You sir, know nothing about fitting ECM ships or using torps.

Max skills, 1089dps, permajam on any subcap without ECCM, and cap stable unless you run the MWD and/or smartbomb. It can be fit with different rigs and a ZMT3000 implant to get 1255 dps. Its only vulnerability is to large drones. So get yer jams on quick.

Widow solo BS Hunter-killer.

lows:
3x CN BCS
1x utility low (I prefer a PDS II for more cap/shield/fitting. But you could go DC II, 4th BCS, speed/agility mod, or meta 4 SDA for better jams.)

Mids:
4x Hypnos Multispec ECM
1x meta 4 TP
1x T2 Warp Disruptor
1x Quad LiF Booster Rockets
1x Sensor Booster II w/scan res script (can be replaced with a webber or warp scrambler II)

Highs:
5x T2 Seige Missile Launchers w/Inferno Rage torps
1x Improved Cloaking Device II
1x Large Notos Explosive Charge

Rigs:
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst
Large Particle Dispersion Augmentor

Drones:
5x Hornet EC-300
5x Hammerhead II

No implants required. But if you want some more dps you can invest in a ZMT type implant to increase you raw dps. Couple fitting points: obviously for solo work you need a warp disruptor/scrambler of some kind. That means close in work. SO the range bonus of racial ECMs is useless. Also, the cumulative jam chance with 4 multispecs is better against a single target than if you had a rainbow rack. TP is great because it takes that 450m signature radius of a BS and pumps it to 650, which is just what your explosion radius is with Rage torps. Your flare rig brings the explosion velocity to just about 100m/s, which is just about the top velocity of most BS. The sebo is to compensate for the slower lock time due to the cloaking device and let you get your jams on before they can lock you and send out drones. The smartbomb can kill a flight of medium T2 drones within the buffer of its shields. If you want, you can swap the sebo for a webber or warp scrambler. But tbh, its a pain to get in range of a web/scram with a widow, even with the cloak. Medium drones for extra dps, and small ECM drones if the shiznit hits the fan and you need to gtfo.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:37:00 - [388]
 

they are finaly getting looked at.... Very Happy

Last Star Fighter
Posted - 2011.07.19 15:04:00 - [389]
 

Originally by: Hemmo Paskiainen
they are finaly getting looked at.... Very Happy


WATCHING WHAT THEY DO, AND NOT WHAT THEY SAY CREW CHECKING IN.

Rayohth
Posted - 2011.07.19 15:18:00 - [390]
 

supported


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